|
Replies: 179
| visibility 10347
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 25, 2024, 9:21 PM
|
|
They believe Jesus is god’s son, the Jewish Messiah, and that he will return again.
|
|
|
|
 |
Legend [18215]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9068
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 25, 2024, 9:30 PM
|
|
How fanciful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
2
Jun 25, 2024, 9:35 PM
|
|
>How fanciful.
I mean, you really beleive this yes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18215]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9068
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 25, 2024, 9:47 PM
|
|
You make a mockery of the Christian faith because you do not understand?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
2
Jun 25, 2024, 9:54 PM
|
|
Really? I'm literally reacting to you calling other ideas fanciful, hypocrite much?
>You make a mockery of the Christian faith because you do not understand?
That's definitely not the reason why, lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18215]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9068
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
2
Jun 25, 2024, 9:59 PM
|
|
I apologize if my statement upset your delicate sensibilities. But, yes, I do think it was... fanciful.
Even the demons believe and tremble. That is a good place for all to begin when one wants to know what the difference is between believing something and having faith in something.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
3
Jun 25, 2024, 10:17 PM
|
|
The next statement after calling something fanciful is to talk about demons being real?
That’s wild.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
2
Jun 25, 2024, 10:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven? ] |
|
Doesn’t that verse come from James?
Someone who didn’t even believe in Jesus during his ministry?
I’m just going by what Jesus himself said. Not people who came along later and started pushing their agenda.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 2:59 PM
|
|
You do not even go by what Jesus said. Jesus said that "No man cometh to The Father, but by me."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
2
Jun 26, 2024, 3:35 PM
|
|
Well, anonymous people claim that's what he said, we don't actually know what he said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 3:40 PM
|
|
You had claimed earlier that you believed Jesus and not James. You believe the written accounts of neither.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
3
Jun 26, 2024, 3:52 PM
|
|
Where did I do that? Two people are talking to you.
For the record, I think we have some of what Jesus says, but we also know, with great certainty that at least some of the words attributed to Jesus were later additions.
So the question isn't "are these words Jesus'", it's "how much of these words are Jesus'".
We do not have the originals, and we can't interview Jesus, so the only real answer is "we don't know". Anything else requires faith, which is fine, but just say that.
> You believe the written accounts of neither.
I do not believe any of the supernatural bits of what they claim, no. Because the only evidence is literally just claims.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 4:00 PM
|
|
We don't know at all that they are "later additions". There is no credible evidence for any of the text of the ESV or the LSB having been added. KJV has some debatable passages.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
4
Jun 26, 2024, 4:05 PM
|
|
>We don't know at all that they are "later additions".
Whatever you need to tell yourself.
Let me ask you a better question:
How do you know the Bible you read has Jesus' actual words? If it's Faith, that's fine. If not, seriously, how do you know?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 4:22 PM
|
|
Faith, fulfilled prophecy, handed down accounts of the church father's. Predominately faith. Faith is easy with relationship. My life was a mess and I was instantly delivered by Christ. My life and the real change He made in it tells me He is real and He lives.
To be fair, I am a Calvinists. I do believe there are people who can not find Him, can not believe in Him, and can discern Him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
3
Jun 26, 2024, 4:48 PM
|
|
Hey, that was an honest answer.
Kudos.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 3:01 PM
|
|
James did not teach salvation by works and faith. James taught that if faith exists in ones life, works will accompany faith. If one has no works, they have dead faith. Dead faith being an unsaving faith.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29090]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 36132
Joined: 8/28/00
|
Islam defintely does not preach Jesus as the Son of God
3
Jun 25, 2024, 9:31 PM
|
|
They believe him to be a prophet, and a messenger of God, but not divine at all,
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18215]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9068
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Islam defintely does not preach Jesus as the Son of God
1
Jun 25, 2024, 9:44 PM
|
|
You should have seen the look that a muslim gave me when I asked them why they thought Muhammad had so much authority as to discount the teachings of Jesus and to persecute and kill Christians since they believe Jesus is the OLDER brother to Muhammad. Especially since the OLDEST son in the family is the first to carry the authority of the family.
"Gold, I tell you. Gold!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
#thatdefinitelyhappened***
1
Jun 25, 2024, 9:45 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18215]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9068
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: #thatdefinitelyhappened***
1
Jun 25, 2024, 9:48 PM
|
|
Yes, it really did.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
#thenthewholeroomclapped***
1
Jun 25, 2024, 9:56 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Islam defintely does not preach Jesus as the Son of God
1
Jun 25, 2024, 9:58 PM
[ in reply to Islam defintely does not preach Jesus as the Son of God ] |
|
May be wrong but I thought they did believe in the virgin birth which would make Jesus divine.
Anyway, they do believe he is the messiah and that he will return.
John 3:16 says whosoever believes in him, it doesn't specify what exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18215]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9068
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Islam defintely does not preach Jesus as the Son of God
1
Jun 25, 2024, 10:01 PM
|
|
John 3:16 gives direction... Jesus Himself gives the complete pathway when He teaches what it means to be His disciple.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29090]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 36132
Joined: 8/28/00
|
They do, as far as I can tell/remember, believe in the virgin birth
1
Jun 25, 2024, 10:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Islam defintely does not preach Jesus as the Son of God ] |
|
However, they don't believe Jesus was God (or ever claimed to be God). They also don't believe in his death and ressurection (and thus, in the Christian view, are missing a key element in God's redemptive arc... the sacrificial Lamb).
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [27048]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 20985
Joined: 9/2/02
|
The rest of the passage ... for context
1
Jun 26, 2024, 8:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: Islam defintely does not preach Jesus as the Son of God ] |
|
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
Please come into the light, BD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: The rest of the passage ... for context
3
Jun 26, 2024, 12:03 PM
|
|
We all see how susceptible to conspiracy you are in Politics. It's not surprising that this one sucks you in too.
Notice something here, you are making this claim. The passage you are quoting was written by an anonymous author. But more importantly, the author doesn't even CLAIM to be an eyewitness to Jesus.
So, again, you are making a claim based on a person who wasn't there, but you act as though this is God directly speaking to us even though he's nowhere to be found in any of these conversations. It is ALWAYS humans making unsubstantiated claims. Yes, always, 100% of the time. It's easy to demonstrate too, just ask for a single substantiated claim that is verifiably God. No one will produce it.
It's truly baffling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [27048]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 20985
Joined: 9/2/02
|
The author is John ... its from the Book of John ...
2
Jun 26, 2024, 1:58 PM
|
|
Have you been to the moon yourself ? Have you held its dust in your hands ?
Have you been to the Artic ? Have you seen for yourself the Ice Pack ?
Yet, I bet you believe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: The author is John ... its from the Book of John ...
3
Jun 26, 2024, 2:24 PM
|
|
lol wow
I can just sit back and letyou own goal yourself i see
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [32296]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37434
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Let me guess...you don't think John wrote John?...
Jun 26, 2024, 4:21 PM
|
|
and you believe "everyone" agrees with you and is therefore fact
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Let me guess...you don't think John wrote John?...
Jun 26, 2024, 4:38 PM
|
|
That's what you got out of that interaction?
Let ME guess: you think we have the same ability to verify his examples as the bible being god-breathed?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7057]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 4851
Joined: 2/20/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
4
Jun 25, 2024, 9:37 PM
|
|
The same chance as Christians or atheists.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
4
Jun 25, 2024, 9:47 PM
|
|
Well no, you don't get to choose where you are born, and your religion is highly correlated with your birthplace.
So, if you get born in the wrong religion you are almost certainly screwed (assuming any of them are correct).
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7057]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 4851
Joined: 2/20/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
3
Jun 25, 2024, 9:55 PM
|
|
That's why I stated they all have the same odds of going to the next spot or to no spot..
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 25, 2024, 10:33 PM
|
|
I don't think that Muslims think Jesus is the son of God, but they do think he was a virgin birth, the Jewish messiah (by some definition), a prophet, and that he will return.
They do reject the Trinity and are as monotheistic as it gets, and cite Numbers 23:19, and other verses, to support their interpretation.
"God is not human..."
"...You, the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent” John (17:3).
As to Heaven, it's a very action-based religion, similar to Judaism. The call on the "Faith without acts..." verse.
I'm finding that the written word of the Koran is sometimes different than the oral traditions, though. Which is not unusual for any religion.
But they do accept a good deal of both Judaism and Christianity, and don't necessarily fault any "older" religion. Any prophet, in his time, was simply spreading the word OF his time - that's what God wanted you to know, then. Like you might tell a person one thing when they are a child, another as a teen, and yet another as an adult.
They simply think that since theirs is newer, it's a more accurate interpretation of the same older ideas. And conceptually, at least, it's inclusive some sense.
"Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians—whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and does what is right—they have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 12:11 AM
|
|
"Those who believe" what? Not arguing with you - you were quoting - just asking how you have found the Koran to define that. Whatever the answer, the ill informed question sometimes posed to Christians would make sense: I go to hell because I dont believe that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
2
Jun 26, 2024, 12:58 AM
|
|
>"Those who believe" what?
I'm still trying to figure that out, exactly.
I think in the most specific sense, it's belief in what Koran itself presents, which they see as "God's final addendum." That is, they don't think either Judaism or Christianity is completely wrong, just misinterpreted and/or corrupted, willingly or more often unwillingly, by man.
As I read the Koran it's in large part a commentary on Judaism, and how the Jews just 'got it wrong' (my words), and to some degree Christianity as well. So it's nothing really 'new', it's more reinterpretation of the 'old.' Many of the old prophets are discussed in a variety of ways...Abraham, Moses, etc.
I don't really have a comprehensive answer to 'what do they believe' yet, and I'm not sure how closely the written word matches the oral word, but that's the feel I get so far.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 1:38 AM
|
|
>I go to hell because I don't believe that?
This is something I'm trying to parse out in Islam. For instance, the verse I gave regarding inclusivity is interesting. That is, when they say, "You shall have nothing to fear, nor shall you grieve", I think it means you won't go to hell, but also, you won't get to Heaven. I'm not really sure, tbh.
I think they still feel that one MUST 'believe in' Islam to get to Heaven, but Islam is in large part a reinterpretation of Judaism and Christianity.
So it's more along the lines of "You must believe in OUR version of Judaism and/or Christianity." Islam really feels more like a denomination than a completely separate religion. I suppose that's why it's considered the third of the 'Abrahamic' religions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 10:48 PM
|
|
Maybe this answers the question of how one gets from an inclusive statement like that to ISIS and "From the river to the sea." The old joke endures because we see the truth in it: Put a Jew and a Muslim in a room, throw in a pistol and shut the door, come back in an hour. If the Jew has the gun there will be a line painted across the floor, 70/30. If the Muslim has the gun, there will be a dead Jew. How does one get from what you have seen in the Koran to that? When the words of an Imam supersede the document, such as it is.
I suppose one could say the same about the medieval collusion between church and state. Took an Enlightenment, and then an American Revolution, to reset truth. And in many ways we are giving that back now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 27, 2024, 12:17 AM
|
|
>When the words of an Imam supersede the document, such as it is.
I suspect that's a big part of it. Thus far (about a quarter in) the Koran isn't a violent document at all. It's very heavy on charity and community good, and frequently says you will be judged by your acts, and how you treat others.
Since it was written in a time of tribal war, there are refences to defending yourself, with violence if necessary. But as with all interpretations, where does one draw the line?
Putin claims to be 'defending' the Russian border by invading Ukraine. So the difference between the written word, and how that word is interpreted, or taught, can be pretty great sometimes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 10:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven? ] |
|
The more weight that is given to oral interpretations, which is giving weight to a person, the more a thing is a cult, as I understand the word. There are Christian sects that become cults, for that exact reason. Mormonism is considered by some to be a cult, as it is the personal writings of one person. Islam? One has to make one's choice about that. But those two are nearly identical in origin, which, imo, is no coincidence. If you're going to start a new thing, that's how you do it, it seems. Jim Jones, very similar.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jun 27, 2024, 9:56 AM
|
|
>If you're going to start a new thing, that's how you do it, it seems.
It's the pattern Paul followed, you are correct.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95835
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Why not!
4
Jun 26, 2024, 2:31 AM
|
|
Anyone who receives Jesus as their savior will go to Heaven. Anyone who seeks God to worship Him will find Jesus and accept His free gift of eternal life with God, Heaven.
It's not complicated, you don't have to be an intellectual, a Bible scholar/professor or an ignorant backwoods redneck like me (1).
1. Being an ignorant backwoods redneck like me is the easy way to faith: Simply trust in the sacrifice of Christ. Intellectuals and those who believe they are intellectual because they aren't animals but are curious try to rationalize heaven, hell, life, death and man's origin so they make it more complicated than what it is. It's so simple even a caveman can do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Why not!
2
Jun 26, 2024, 7:28 AM
|
|
Indeed, if you hand-wave away all the problems, anything is easy.
Not sure why you aren't Muslim then, it's SO EASY!?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Why did God create a situation in the first place which he knew would result
2
Jun 26, 2024, 8:23 AM
[ in reply to Why not! ] |
|
in most of his children burning in hell for eternity? Also, why did God wait for 400,000 years of humans before sending a savior so that some could have a way to avoid burning in hell? Please try to give a straight answer without only quoting scripture.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Why did God create a situation in the first place which he knew would result
2
Jun 26, 2024, 9:10 AM
|
|
I can do a good impersonation:
1. Deny the 400,000 claim, even though there is hard evidence
2. Quote Scripture
3. claim that YOU killed christ because you are such a POS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental
3
Jun 26, 2024, 11:38 AM
|
|
gymnastics and ignoring certain things. I respect taking a leap of faith when it just feels right, but just admit that's what you're doing.
If one believes that God is all-powerful and truly loves us, yet believe that he created an existence by choice that he knows results in most of us burning in hell for eternity, then admit that's what you believe. Then, offer an explanation for that undeniable contradiction, without silly excuses like "love means something different to God" or "God had to do it that way".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental
3
Jun 26, 2024, 12:06 PM
|
|
>I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer
Well because to do so, would contradict what they believe.
>I respect taking a leap of faith when it just feels right, but just admit that's what you're doing.
I 100% agree with this. I have zero problem with someone having faith. If you are going to claim that faith is based on evidence, then yeah I'm going to have some questions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [160971]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 67539
Joined: 5/6/13
|
This is whats humorous to me
2
Jun 26, 2024, 4:13 PM
|
|
If we are talking about an entity that exists outside the boundaries of time and literally created everything we know, (and that’s exactly what we are discussing), acting as if you have an open and shut case of anything at that level based on the relatively minuscule base of knowledge and rules of logic that any of us possess is like a cro-magnon one year old insisting that quantum string theory is false.
This is true for either side. Faith is a choice, to be sure, but the belief in a creator God is no less logical (and probably more logical) than the belief that this insanely complex universe of intricate systems, patterns, and objects and beings is pure happenstance that originated from nothing.
Once you believe in a creator of some type, it’s a short hop to finding the creation story that resonates with you the most, and that’s the roots of faith.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: This is whats humorous to me
2
Jun 26, 2024, 4:33 PM
|
|
>This is true for either side. Faith is a choice, to be sure, but the belief in a creator God is no less logical (and probably more logical) than the belief that this insanely complex universe of intricate systems, patterns, and objects and beings is pure happenstance that originated from nothing.
Sure, but you are missing some crucial things here. Yes there are "two sides" but not the ones you think.
There are people who make a positive claim about what/if something/someone created the universe: i.e. people who say "God did it" or "God didn't do it".
And then there are the honest people: "we don't know", because we do not have evidence for anything before the Plank time nor do we have any ability to inspect it.
As for things happening/originating by happenstance or from nothing (the latter of which is not something I hear people claim much), you have exactly the same problem if you move it back one step and say "oh this can't happen by happenstance, by that can". It doesn't solve anything logically, in fact, it complicates the problem.
>Once you believe in a creator of some type, it’s a short hop to finding the creation story that resonates with you the most, and that’s the roots of faith.
I agree.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [160971]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 67539
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Sure agnosticism is a tertiary category, but
2
Jun 26, 2024, 4:47 PM
|
|
In my experience, the true definition of one is far more theoretical than in practice.
A true agnostic with the position that they just don’t know would never get into a religious argument because literally anyone they were arguing with could have a correct position.
Instead, as we see daily on this board, it’s “I couldn’t possibly know one way or the other but let me tell you why you’re wrong”. A real world agnostic usually appears as an atheist trying to have their theological cake and eat it too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Sure agnosticism is a tertiary category, but
1
Jun 26, 2024, 4:53 PM
|
|
That's a pretty confused understanding of the position.
agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
>A true agnostic with the position that they just don’t know would never get into a religious argument because literally anyone they were arguing with could have a correct position.
Nonsense. In fact, it's definitional. They would argue against the positive claim of a god existing (or non-existence).
>Instead, as we see daily on this board, it’s “I couldn’t possibly know one way or the other but let me tell you why you’re wrong. A real world agnostic usually appears as an atheist trying to have their theological cake and eat it too.
Again, confused.
Saying "we don't have evidence or the ability to verify something" and "your claim otherwise" are not mutually exclusive.
>A real world agnostic usually appears as an atheist trying to have their theological cake and eat it too.
One last thing, you don't appear to realize that atheists can be agnostic. You are speaking to one.
Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity, it is not mutually exclusive with the idea that we can't know one way or another because it's not a positive claim.
What's really going on here, and we see it all the time with this sort of question "why are you in a religion forum if you don't beleive" is that you guys simply don't like being questioned. That's it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [160971]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 67539
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I think what we really are seeing here is that
1
Jun 26, 2024, 4:56 PM
|
|
You guys are so smug in your belief in the intellectual superiority of your position that you genuinely believe that anyone who disagrees with you is “confused”.
You might convince a few more people if you weren’t quite so addicted to the smell of your own farts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I think what we really are seeing here is that
1
Jun 26, 2024, 5:01 PM
|
|
Do you want to point out the flaws in my arguments or just ad hominem?
If you "really see" you could refute, but so far... "farts".
We do indeed see what's really going on here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [160971]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 67539
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Nope, because here is what youre missing.
1
Jun 26, 2024, 5:11 PM
|
|
I honestly don’t care enough about you (or many other strangers) to care if you believe or not. It’s a Christian failing of mine, as I’m supposed to be called on some level to evangelism, but c’est la vie. You, on the other hand, who claims to not have enough information to form a solid position, seem to care mightily what I believe. You’re more evangelistic by a factor of 100 than I am, and that’s always been my primary curiosity about you and those like you. Atheism in its purest form should naturally come with the utmost level of indifference, and yet the fervor with which most of you seek to evangelize believers of any stripe really suggests an unhealthy level of emotional attachment to the topic.
I also appreciate the chuckle you provided from saying you would argue against atheists as well due to your level-headed agnosticism. I haven’t seen that yet, but I’m sure it will be intellectually fabulous when you do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Nope, because here is what youre missing.
2
Jun 26, 2024, 5:39 PM
|
|
Just to clarify:
Posting on a P&R topic about P&R is "evangelism" and means I "care mightily about what you believe".
Yeah, I think my initial assessment of "confused" is spot on.
Of all the posters I've had the pleasure of interacting with your ratio of "ad hominem" to "substance" is quite high.
I understand, though, you do seem to really lack the ability to refute. I get why you do your drive-bys.
>I also appreciate the chuckle you provided from saying you would argue against atheists as well due to your level-headed agnosticism. I haven’t seen that yet, but I’m sure it will be intellectually fabulous when you do.
I mean, I literally did that in this conversation. Again: confused.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [160971]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 67539
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Re: Nope, because here is what youre missing.
Jun 14, 2020, 12:59 PM
|
|
Let me correct your confusion. Willingness =\= ability. Additionally, smug is no more of an ad hominem than confused, which you led with. You might need thicker skin if you feel I’ve utilized ad hominems of any variety in this conversation.
Good to stick to your guns though. I’m guessing your rudimentary psyop gaslighting discussion tactics surely work well on someone.(that was a well deserved ad hominem—hopefully that clears your confusion)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Nope, because here is what youre missing.
Jun 26, 2024, 6:05 PM
|
|
Yawn, engage in the actual conversation or just #### honestly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [160971]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 67539
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Nah, Ive uncovered what I need to know.
1
Jun 26, 2024, 6:13 PM
|
|
Enjoy your vendetta. I’m sorry a supposedly religious person clearly caused you some trauma at some point.
I think Chryslers suck and I would never buy one. I’m going to head over to a Dodge forum now and try to get them to believe me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Nah, Ive uncovered what I need to know.
Jun 26, 2024, 6:16 PM
|
|
Lol, continue that confusion onhwo forums work.
Im not conservative either, politics forums make no sense.
Confused.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Nope, because here is what youre missing.
Jun 27, 2024, 7:57 PM
[ in reply to Nope, because here is what youre missing. ] |
|
“ I honestly don’t care enough about you (or many other strangers) to care if you believe or not”
Sounds like you might be down there with us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Nope, because here is what youre missing.
Jun 27, 2024, 8:08 PM
|
|
I care enough to share The Gospel. At some point it becomes "casting pearls before swine.". Jesus instructed His disciples to "shake the dust from their feet" if a village rejected their teaching.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Nope, because here is what youre missing.
Jun 27, 2024, 8:14 PM
|
|
Sounds like they probably preached nonsense and couldn’t answer basic questions either.
Hey, maybe they weren’t so backwards afterall
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
It's like this . . .
2
Jun 26, 2024, 6:33 PM
[ in reply to This is whats humorous to me ] |
|
Yes, our ability to understand an entity that exists outside the boundaries of space and time is very limited, so therefore claims of true, direct knowledge and understanding of any such entity are highly questionable and fair game for scrutiny and criticism. One does not, however, need any such knowledge themselves to question and criticize those claims, or at least point out the flawed logic, poor reasoning, or cherry-picking of facts we so often see.
For instance, one does not need any direct knowledge or understanding of God to dispute the claim that (A) God is all-powerful, and at the same time (B) there are some things God cannot do, or must do a certain way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: It's like this . . .
2
Jun 26, 2024, 9:23 PM
|
|
For me, the question of 1) "Is there a God?" is completely different than 2) "How does one describe that God, if he exists?"
Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God, but each group describes him differently. Even Eastern religions often have a supreme being of some sort, but their relationship with man is different than with Middle Eastern religions.
I've used the analogy of a revving sound coming from a closed garage. Some folks say they hear it clearly. But is it a lawnmower, a Ford, a Mercedes, or a motorcycle? And how can one tell for certain?
Do you rely on what someone else tells you they think it is? Or on your own personal experience? Or on something else?
Of course, some folks don't hear the revving at all. And to confuse the issue even more, what if it's multiple cars, or a just recording, playing different engine sounds, and not a vehicle at all? And how does one know?
So saying "I hear something" is one, lower threshold, but saying "this is what it is" is a higher threshold. And many times, the disagreements come over the descriptions, not necessarily the substance. Two separate issues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: It's like this . . .
1
Jun 26, 2024, 9:42 PM
|
|
For instance, for threshold 1, one might say "Well, the fact that the universe exists at all is evidence of a creator. Another example is that my own mother says she saw "the spirit of God." And either of those might very well be true.
But, given that there is creation, and assuming my mother did see God, what further evidence does one have that this creator spirit judges us?
Maybe he's just a creator, and nothing more. And my mom didn't say "He told me he was going to judge me", she just said "I saw the spirit of God."
So two very different questions - existence, vs. characteristics.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental
Jun 26, 2024, 9:05 PM
[ in reply to I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental ] |
|
God created us so that He could show his Glory. We were created for His glory.
God is Love, but He is equally righteous and just. When man fails to accept Gods gift of salvation, then man becomes the object of Gods justice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental
2
Jun 26, 2024, 9:18 PM
|
|
Saying "god is love" while also saying that he will brutally torture the majority of his creation for eternity is an oxymoron.
There is nothing loving, righteous or just about eternal torment, it's a demented man-man concept.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental
Jun 27, 2024, 6:37 PM
|
|
God is love and God is just. His love does not negate His justice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Why does God allow things that require his justice?***
Jun 27, 2024, 6:51 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Why does God allow things that require his justice?***
Jun 27, 2024, 7:17 PM
|
|
Why would He not?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Why does God allow things that require his justice?***
2
Jun 27, 2024, 7:23 PM
|
|
Let's put it in simpler terms.
Why allow person A to shoot up a school so that he can enact his justice, if he could simply just prevent the school getting shot up in the first place.
If you say person A's free will. I want to know why you favor person A's free will to be a psychopath over the childrens free will to not want to be shot in the face while learning to read.
What you are basically saying is: God cares more about justice instead of preventing the bad things in he first place.
Something is very wrong there: he either isn't all-powerful or chooses not to prevent that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Why does God allow things that require his justice?***
Jun 27, 2024, 7:28 PM
|
|
He chooses to give man a large degree of free volition. He did not create a kingdom of puppets.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Why does God allow things that require his justice?***
2
Jun 27, 2024, 8:16 PM
|
|
So again, the violent person’s will is more important? Why doesn’t the victims will matter?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
And that is based on the assumption that God is NOT all-powerful, and is
Jun 28, 2024, 9:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why does God allow things that require his justice?*** ] |
|
limited in some way. In other words ...
(A) God does not want the people he created to be puppets, and therefore gives them free will.
(B) He is incapable of giving people free will and not allowing them to sin. Sin is a necessary component of free will.
(C) Therefore, God must allow people to sin, so they won't be puppets.
(D) God is subject to universal laws that limit his power.
Just come to terms with the fact that by your own admission, God is not all powerful. Quit dodging and dancing around it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental
2
Jun 27, 2024, 7:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental ] |
|
You are just saying platitudes.
How is eternal torture justice or love?
Literal nonsense.
If someone told you they set their kid on fire, you would call them a psycho, but god can do it for eternity and you fawn all over it.
Nonsense and more than a bit concerning to be honest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Such behavior does not fit any definition of "love" I can imagine, and I
Jun 28, 2024, 9:39 AM
|
|
believe that when people say it can be, their first commitment IS a blind one is to a particular religious ideology, and they make all sorts of excuses and ignore contradictions all along the way in order to make everything fit so as to make it acceptable on some level. All so the God that loves them won't have them burn in hell for eternity.
I don't get it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Okay, I'll ask ...
Jun 26, 2024, 9:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental ] |
|
Did God create an existence or reality knowing that most of his children would spend eternity burning in hell? All so that he could be glorified in some way?
It's indisputable that if God is all-powerful, absolutely nothing is necessary for him to have everything he wants, and nothing can exist against his will. So, which is it ...
(A) God IS NOT all-powerful, and he is engaged in a battle against sin and evil and the devil.
(B) God IS NOT all-powerful, and must allow sin and evil and the devil as a component of free will.
(C) God IS all-powerful, and wants sin and evil and the devil to exist, and wants most of his children, which he created, to burn in hell for eternity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/24/10
|
^ This is usually where either the conversation dies, or the real deflection
May 23, 2012, 10:58 PM
|
|
or nonsense begins.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: ^ This is usually where either the conversation dies, or the real deflection
1
Jun 27, 2024, 9:05 AM
|
|
Smiling Tiger®
I am convinced: I think you honestly believe that. We have had some fun discussions here, but you come here and characterize them like that? What a smug, sanctimonious jerk. This is disappointing for two reasons:
First, you call honest comments nonsense. Your supposed 'gotcha' dilemma comes from an assumed starting point, that God has to live in the same space/time constraints we do. An equally valid starting point is that the concept of individual responsibility due to individual choice applies to us, because a Creator is not bound by time, any more than he is bound by gravity, both being products of the universe. Fine. So, you call that very valid and widely held view 'deflecting'? 'Nonsense'? Your beginning assumptions make you superior?
But what really ticks me off about your comment is that at no time have I seen anyone try to tell you what you have to believe. You are the one always asking the question, remember? You ask a question, you get a valid answer, and you use that answer to make a post like this? You are He Who Must Have All Questions Answered? No need for me to ask if you really see yourself that way: you came here to say you do.
Be careful who you get in bed with and start agreeing with, but in this case it's too late.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I couldn't disagree more.
Jun 27, 2024, 10:41 AM
|
|
You have proven my point. I said:
It's indisputable that if God is all-powerful, absolutely nothing is necessary for him to have everything he wants, and nothing can exist against his will. I pointed out this is where the deflection and nonsense begins, exactly as you responded with deflection and nonsense:
Your supposed 'gotcha' dilemma comes from an assumed starting point, that God has to live in the same space/time constraints we do.
Claim: Both of these are, or could be true:
(A) God is all-powerful; there is nothing he is incapable of doing.
(B) There are some things God cannot do, or must do a certain way.
If this claim is true, and logic and reason are meaningless when it comes to understanding or developing a concept of God, and/or if there can be no starting point assumed, then all claims regarding God would be both equally legitimate and equally meaningless, and all discussions in an attempt to understand are pointless.
Sorry I riled you up, but you seem to have a short fuse and a mighty high opinion of your own opinions. Smug, sanctimoniuos jerk? Look in the mirror.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
Jun 27, 2024, 1:40 PM
|
|
At least you doubled down. A person with no thought of debating simply tries to answer your question, and because you dont understand or like the response you call that "deflecting" and "nonsense". You're the one using those terms. Yes, for absolutely no reason you are a being a smug, sanctimonious jerk.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
Jun 27, 2024, 2:36 PM
|
|
There’s the real you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
2
Jun 27, 2024, 3:19 PM
[ in reply to I couldn't disagree more. ] |
|
Amazing. Someone can say that you are going to hell for not believing like they do, call torturing the vast majority of humanity “good” and then call you smug for pointing out thats nonsense.
Truly amazing
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
Jun 27, 2024, 5:26 PM
|
|
If you would just accept that God exists outside the space/time continuum, it would all make sense. Let me simplify it for you.
Question: How can the following claim be true?
Both of these are, or could be true:
(A) God is all-powerful; there is nothing he is incapable of doing.
(B) There are some things God cannot do, or must do a certain way.
Answer: Because God does not live with the same space/time constraints as we do.
See?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
Jun 27, 2024, 5:44 PM
|
|
Just to be clear, since you claim to never understand:
When two people have a respectful, if disagreeing, conversation - I considered you a friend - and one of those then goes to a third party and, in public, starts talking about "they deflect" and "they are nonsense", that is the definition of a smug, sanctimonious jerk.
But you dont care about what you've done.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
1
Jun 27, 2024, 7:10 PM
|
|
>But you dont care about what you've done.
So let me get this straight:
Smiling called out "nonsensical arguments".
He didn't name you.
But you took that personally (interesting) and started with the name calling.
And you are acting like the victim here?
Classic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
It was not personal at all to me, and my comment was certainly not made
Jun 27, 2024, 8:44 PM
|
|
with CU in mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: It was not personal at all to me, and my comment was certainly not made
1
Jun 28, 2024, 1:54 PM
|
|
"They do this", and "They do that" is personal. There are only a few on this board, five-ish, you could be referring to, so it was personal to all of us.
You have never been on the receiving end. What is said about you is said to you. Like I'm doing now, and you can always count on that. If I havent been clear about this, the point is that I expect that sort of stuff of a certain few; is who they are. Didnt expect it of you. Like I said, you dont care.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: It was not personal at all to me, and my comment was certainly not made
1
Jun 28, 2024, 3:33 PM
|
|
Wow, still trying to gaslight smiling into thinking he’s the ahole in the conversation. Nice
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: It was not personal at all to me, and my comment was certainly not made
Jun 28, 2024, 6:55 PM
|
|
Don't worry, I know better.
I did not call out anyone by name. Rather, I was called out by name. I even had my logo (or whatever it's called) posted. Very directly personal.
I did not attack anyone by calling them names. But I was called a smug, sanctimonious jerk.
I was called out by name, and personally attacked, because I said "some people" "deflect and respond with nonsense". I stand by that and give examples.
I don't take it personally when people disagree with me - we just disagree. I live and deal with people every day who disagree with me about religion and politics and movies and cars and sports and on and on. I have beautiful, close, long-term, loving relationships with many of them. None of them call me names like "smug, sanctimonious jerk" when in the course of debate or dicussion, I tell them their logic is flawed, or they are dodging the real issue, or they aren't making any sense. I don't get angry or call them names when they laugh at my ideas or reasoning. It's all part of the process, the back-and-forth of good people who disagree but value their relationship.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
Jun 27, 2024, 6:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: I couldn't disagree more. ] |
|
I don't think you are smug. I think you are trying to convince yourself that God does not exist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Strange.
Jun 27, 2024, 6:42 PM
|
|
I believe very much that God exists. I just don't believe a lot of claims other people make about God, because they don't make any sense to me. Should I accept them anyway? Do you accept things that make no sense to you? I come here asking questions trying to understand, but people flat out won't answer, and either walk away/ignore, or tell me my questions are not valid. If you are serious, help me out here:
Claim: Both of these are, or could be true:
(A) God is all-powerful; there is nothing he is incapable of doing.
(B) There are some things God cannot do, or must do a certain way.
Please explain how that can be. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Strange.
Jun 27, 2024, 7:23 PM
|
|
First, God tells us that His ways are foolishness to man, ICor 1:26.
God is all powerful but He is also self limiting. He chooses not to do certain things. Our mind, not His power, is the limiting factor.
The old question comes to mind , "Can God make a rock so big He can't move it?".
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Okay ...
Jun 27, 2024, 8:31 PM
|
|
So God could achieve anything he wants without sin, evil, and any need for justice. Those things only exist because he wants them to exist, not because they are in any way necessary. Glad to hear you say it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Okay ...
Jun 28, 2024, 8:05 AM
|
|
God wants man to make a choice and be a free agent. There are logical consequences of that choice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Like I said, you admit that God is subject to rules/laws bigger than he is,
Jun 28, 2024, 10:34 AM
|
|
and must do things a certain way. You claim that God isn't powerful enough to give man free will and make it impossible for him to sin and therefore must make eternal punishment in hell an option. Above, you claim that "there are logical consequenses", and apparently God is at the mercy of logic and it's consequences.
You keep giving examples of God's limited power and ability, yet you either don't realize it, or just can't bring yourself to say it. Which is it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Like I said, you admit that God is subject to rules/laws bigger than he is,
Jun 28, 2024, 9:54 PM
|
|
God did what He wanted to do. He does what He wants to do. He will do what He wants to do. He is sovereign.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
We agree. God created this existence so that by his choice, it included
Jun 29, 2024, 1:17 AM
|
|
sin and evil, because that's what he wanted, not because he had to. It was entirely his choice, and what he wanted. Nothing can exist against God's will.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: We agree. God created this existence so that by his choice, it included
Jun 29, 2024, 8:46 AM
|
|
There are two wills of God; perfect and permissive. Free agency exists inside the permissive will. He can do what He wants, but to a limited degree, He lets us do what we want.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Just answer this directly, without the dance ...
Jun 29, 2024, 1:15 PM
|
|
Yes or no. Pick one or the other. Very simple. Very easy.
Can anything exist against God's will?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Just answer this directly, without the dance ...
Jun 29, 2024, 7:02 PM
|
|
Against His permissive will, no.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: Just answer this directly, without the dance ...
Jun 29, 2024, 8:21 PM
|
|
So, it is purely God's will that Sin and evil exist. Simple.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Just answer this directly, without the dance ...
Jun 30, 2024, 4:52 PM
|
|
It is His permissive will it exists.
He has two wills. You can't combine the two. There is a theological distinction between the two.
Did you stop beating your wife? Yes or No?
Some question wording does not allow for a simple yes or no.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Just answer this directly, without the dance ...
1
Jun 30, 2024, 5:09 PM
|
|
>Did you stop beating your wife? Yes or No?
comparing that to Smilings question is ridiculous
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Wrong - the answer to that question is a simple, straightforward "No".
Jun 30, 2024, 9:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just answer this directly, without the dance ... ] |
|
I did not stop because I never started.
Whether it's his "permissive will", or his "restrictive will", or his "hoopty will" or his "flippity floppity will" or his "sunshine will" or his "scornful will" or whatever slight of hand you have to use to dodge the reality that at the end of the day, it's God's will. God chooses, using his free will, for sin and evil to exist.
It's amazing how deeply some of you are committed to an idea in spite of the undeniable problems with it that you simply refuse to accept, and how far you will go to twist and deny.
Let me say this; I respect your right to believe whatever you want. Whatever you choose to believe about God is totally fine with me. I can't prove my personal religious, spiritual beliefs; they are in part based on gut feelings that I can't defend in a logical way. I know that and I'm fine with it. I believe what I believe. I think it is a fascinating subject and I enjoy the back and forth, and seeing how other people think, and honing my own understanding of the subject.
Based on what I believe, God is everywhere, at all times; ever present, existing in what we call eternity in everything. We can't begin to comprehend God in his entirety and his complexity; but that doesn't mean that we can't know anything about him, nor does it mean that any and all claims about him are equally believable. It doesn't mean we can't know him on some level and have a relationship with him. I think we are supposed to use our brain and our conscience to understand him as best we can, and pursue that relationship.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Strange.
Jun 29, 2024, 9:03 PM
[ in reply to Strange. ] |
|
I think you said somewhere that you are Episcopalian. Do you not believe Episcopalian doctrine?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: Strange.
Jun 29, 2024, 10:12 PM
|
|
I attended an Episcopalian church for many years. I do not necessarily embrace any doctrine; I believe what I believe, and am still wecome at the Episcopal church.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
1
Jun 27, 2024, 7:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: I couldn't disagree more. ] |
|
>I think you are trying to convince yourself that God does not exist
This statement makes no sense.
It would be great if there was a God out there that cared about me. Why would I want to convince myself he didn't exist?
You do realize this is simply something you were taught to say, right? It's not something non-believers actually think. It's a way to keep you in line and make you rationalize your own beliefs.
No, I don't convince myself God, Zeus, Allah, etc... don't exist.
Do you actively convince yourself Zeus doesn't exist? Actually take more than 2 seconds and contemplate that statement. Because what you are saying is EXACTLY the same as me saying "I think you are trying to convince yourself that Zeus does not exist".
If you can honestly say that's how you approach it, ok then, but I highly doubt it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
Jun 27, 2024, 7:38 PM
|
|
I spend no time dispelling the existence of Zeus.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I couldn't disagree more.
Jun 27, 2024, 8:18 PM
|
|
Now imagine millions of people claiming he did exist but gave you exactly the evidence you have for him now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental
Jun 27, 2024, 8:00 PM
[ in reply to I never get a reasonable, sensible, direct answer, that doesn't require mental ] |
|
You have to make a few decisions.
Is there a God?
If yes, Is He the God of The Bible?
If yes, Then you are not His Judge. You don't get to tell Him what love is or what fairness is.
At any point you choose "no", then Christianity is not for you. You can't serve The God of The Bible without submitting to His sovereignty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
You have some decisions to make yourself.
1
Jun 27, 2024, 11:58 PM
|
|
Do you want to glorify a God who you agree intentionally created an existence that includes the vast majority of his children burning in hell for eternity?
Do you want to glorify a God who you agree wants sin and evil and satan?
Now, I will directly answer your questions and address your points.
Is there a God? Yes.
If yes, Is He the God of The Bible? I don't think so, at least not entirely. I think there are some serious problems with what many/most people consider the God of The Bible.
If yes, Then you are not His Judge. You don't get to tell Him what love is or what fairness is. To the extent he is The God of The Bible, I agree, I am not his judge, and I don't get to tell him what love or fairness is. That does not mean that I/we can't have an understanding of what those things are, i.e. develop and utilize valid concepts of love and fairness, independent of God. In other words, if God popped up and disemboweled a truckload of infants at halftime of the Super Bowl, and told us that was an example of love, I'd know he was talking about something entirely different from what I'm talking about when I'm talking about love, and what we are talking about, the idea or concept, is what counts, regardless of what we call it.
At any point you choose "no", then Christianity is not for you. You can't serve The God of The Bible without submitting to His sovereignty. I don't think you get to make that call, but you are free to believe that. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "submitting to his sovereignty", but I believe God created us out of love (as I understand love, not as some unknowable, undefineable concept), not to have a subservient race of beings to either worship him or burn in hell for eternity. If that means I can't be a Christian, I'm fine with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: You have some decisions to make yourself.
Jun 28, 2024, 8:06 AM
|
|
I want to Glorify The God who saved me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: You have some decisions to make yourself.
1
Jun 28, 2024, 8:28 AM
|
|
Saved you from that which he, totally by choice, created and sustains, knowing that most of the people he created would not be saved. It's an interesting belief that I don't share.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: You have some decisions to make yourself.
Jun 28, 2024, 6:45 PM
|
|
Ok. You don't share that belief. I believe it. You dont. Is what it is. One of us is right. Time will tell which one. You say you believe in God. Which one? What religious text you follow?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: You have some decisions to make yourself.
Jun 29, 2024, 6:47 PM
|
|
My beliefs about God are not entirely, blindly based on any one religious text. My beliefs are based on a combination of my upbringing in the Baptist church, and becoming an Episcopalian as an adult, and finaly using my own brain and life experience to come up with an acceptale set of beliefs that did not conflict with reason and common sense. I believe all religions are an attemp by man to explain life, the experience we all have here, and the meaning of it all.
I don't believe a loving God created anyone knowing that they would spend eternity burning in hell, as it would be totally unnecessary in order to achieve anything he wanted, and would serve no corrective purpose and and obviously is ineffective as a deterrent. I think it is a made up concept and belief.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: You have some decisions to make yourself.
Jun 28, 2024, 8:12 AM
[ in reply to You have some decisions to make yourself. ] |
|
God is love. God is just. God is wrathful. His love extends a means to avoid His Justice and His wrath.
God knew man would sin, but sin was not His perfect will for man, It was His permissive will. God's foreknowledge of the fall did not negate man having a free choice to make the decision to sin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: You have some decisions to make yourself.
Jun 28, 2024, 8:33 AM
|
|
Tell me what you mean when you say "God is love". How exactly do you define "love" in this context? I know you say that we don't get to define it, God does, so what is God's definition? I assume you know since you make claims about the word.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Why did God create a situation in the first place which he knew would result
Jun 27, 2024, 6:34 PM
[ in reply to Why did God create a situation in the first place which he knew would result ] |
|
Man had a path to redemption revealed in Genesis. Adam is in heaven. God made a saving covenant with Adam. There was no time in history when a path to Heaven did not exist. God created man for His glory. God receives glory when man is saved.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Please, PLEASE respond and don't ignore . . .
Jun 27, 2024, 6:47 PM
|
|
Why did God create a situation in the first place that included most of the people he created (whom he supposedly loves) burning in hell for eternity?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Please, PLEASE respond and don't ignore . . .
Jun 27, 2024, 7:35 PM
|
|
He created a situation in which He receives Glory from those who serve Him.
God is God. That means He is sovereign. He makes the rules. From what I read, you believe He exists, but you don't believe He is sovereign. You believe He has to conform to your standard of fairness. He is God. I am not God. You are not God. If you want to make the rules and you want to be God, Christianity is not for you. As Gunnery Sgt Hartman said, "Can I be in charge? Can I make the rules for a while?". God makes the rules. We are bound by them. Whether or not we agree with it changes nothing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Okay, so God is totally in control, and God WANTS sin and evil and the
Jun 27, 2024, 8:16 PM
|
|
suffering that goes along with it. Glad to hear you come out and say it. I was always taught that he hated and opposed those things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95835
Joined: 12/25/09
|
You can't tell someone else how to spend their money.
Jun 30, 2024, 10:18 AM
[ in reply to Why did God create a situation in the first place which he knew would result ] |
|
You can but you can't force them to spend it like you think is right.
You can't tell God how to deal with His creation. We are created by Him. If He wills to condemn those who are unfit to be in His presence He has alone has that right.
You can ask your question again and again but no matter how many times I explain the most common and reasonable answer you will never understand as long as you continue to be stuck in the believe that God is willing to violate one of His attributes to satisfy another.
When He foretold of Christ in Genesis 3:16 He was saying, 'I am creating a way to forego justice on you by executing your desert upon Christ.
Freewill is not freewill as long has a limit. The words freewill and limit are an oxymoron.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
And no matter how many times and different ways you dance around it,
1
Jun 30, 2024, 1:06 PM
|
|
it's unavoidable. Nothing you said above in any way changes or addresses the following, which is the whole issue. It's just more dancing and avoiding.
Either God has unlimited power and could accomplish anything and everything he wants without sin, evil, Satan, hell, etc., meaning those things only exist because he wants them to, or
God is not all-powerful, and must comply with a higher power which requires those things as components of free will, which a higher power necessitates in order for God to achieve what he wants.
Nothing in that amounts to me telling God what to do or how he has to do it. I'm only disputing claims that you and others make about God. Now, if your claim is that God, as eternal, infinite creator of everything and sovereign ruler of it all, is incomprehensible as such to us mere mortals, and therefore human thought and reasoning simply does not apply, then okay, we can't possibly know anything about him and any thought, questions, or discussion about him is a total waste of time, including any and all of your claims.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: And no matter how many times and different ways you dance around it,
2
Jun 30, 2024, 1:40 PM
|
|
At a certain point, I think we just need to realize we are talking to people that call things like drowning the whole world "good", "loving" and "just". Imagine for a second that this is a real story (it's not there is no good evidence for it of course), the whole world is starting to flood. The sheer terror and panic on all the children's faces (not to mention their parents).
This is an act that would embarrass the most ambitious psychopath but these people are like "oh no that's GOOD because God did it". Yeah those infants (not to mention fetuses, wow that's a lot of abortions the religious right won't talk about), definitely deserved it and it is a good/loving thing. Definitiely couldn't be the psychopathic machinations of ancient men.
I mean really? We want to take morality pointers from this group?
Give me a break. As you said earlier, it's pure nonsense so for us to continue to expect a sensible answer is kind of egg on our own face I must admit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Good point - I shouldn't expect a sensible answer, or an explanation of
1
Jun 30, 2024, 3:51 PM
|
|
how their answer is sensible. It goes like this:
Me: Please give a sensible, logical answer to how God can be both all-powerful and all-loving, and at the same time have limitations and do things that hurt innocent people.
Response: Human concepts like logic, power, love, sensible, innocent, hurt, etc, do not apply to God because he is so far above and beyond our ability to comprehend. We can absoluetly understand and know, however, that He is loving and just.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95835
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I appreciat that.
Jun 30, 2024, 7:15 PM
[ in reply to And no matter how many times and different ways you dance around it, ] |
|
He chose to give us free will but if the only will in both the spiritual and physical world is His then we have His will and not our will for there's no variance. Sin is a variance from God's will.
How can we vary from God's will if there is nothing to vary to? Is it free will if there is not one single options? Do we really have a choice if there's only one option.
The question is open to anyone here.
Smiling Tiger®
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
If God is all-powerful, then yes there could be other options if he wanted
Jun 30, 2024, 7:41 PM
|
|
other options. There would be nothing to stop or limit him. It's very simple and straightforward.
Others here insist that God is indeed all-powerful, with no limitations, but then insist he must do things a certain way due to boundaries beyond his control. It sounds like you are doing the same thing. So let me ask ...
Can anything exist against God's will? Are you suggesting that God hates sin and evil, but he has no choice but to allow them to exist and thrive?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95835
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Of course you can explain how free will and limitations to will are compatable.
Jul 6, 2024, 7:41 AM
|
|
I'm waiting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Of course you can explain how free will and limitations to will are compatable.
Jul 6, 2024, 7:48 AM
|
|
Are you kidding?
For 1, our free will IS limited.
Person A has the free will to sucker punch person B
Person B's free will to not suffer, does not matter, if Person A goes through with it.
But the easy answer to this is incredibly simple:
God: "Hey echoes, do you freely choose to be put on this planet with all the freedom you want without the ability to cause harm/suffering?"
Echoes: "That sounds great actually"
So what are you talking about?
How about you explain why God is so great but children getting murdered in their classroom MUST HAPPEN.
Literal nonsense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2496]
TigerPulse: 93%
Posts: 2546
Joined: 1/7/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
1
Jun 26, 2024, 2:58 PM
|
|
What passage in Quran do you base this on?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13439]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9937
Joined: 1/23/06
|
Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
3
Jun 27, 2024, 10:24 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24914]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14249
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 27, 2024, 6:38 PM
|
|
Apparently so: they are killing them every chance they get.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
1
Jun 27, 2024, 7:34 PM
|
|
It's sad but let's not forget Hitler and the KKK killed in the name of Christ.
Maybe it's time as a society that we stop this madness and retire these ancient documents that have caused so much pain and suffering to the fiction section.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 27, 2024, 7:40 PM
|
|
Stalin killed in the name of secularism. Hitler was not a Christian. He used the church as his forced political tool.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 27, 2024, 7:48 PM
|
|
A lot of Muslims would say those who kill in the name of Allah are not real believers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 27, 2024, 7:55 PM
|
|
Sheite and Suni Islam is for all practical purposes two different religions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 27, 2024, 7:59 PM
|
|
I mean one could argue that the most violent religion of all time was Old Testament Judaism.
Yahweh was originally the god of war in a pantheon of gods before becoming the god of creation according to the Jews.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 28, 2024, 6:48 PM
|
|
Not according to any devout Jews I know. Judaism believes in One God. There is no pantheon of God's in Judaism. They consider Christians to be polytheists because we believe in A Trinity. Judaism is based in the Old Testament. Show me a pantheon of God's in the O.T.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 29, 2024, 9:00 PM
|
|
Abraham, prior to His encounter with YVWH, was polytheistic. After His encounter with the true God, Israeli doctrine was monotheistic. Of course many worshiped idols and false gods. Israel's worship of false gods is why they were continually judged by YVWH.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
1
Jun 30, 2024, 2:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?*** ] |
|
That's a good find. There's no doubt the ancient Israelites were exposed to many concepts of gods, but how they dealt with them (and documented them, as in Psalm 82 and Deut 32, and other places) is very interesting. Might make for a good OP someday.
Monotheism is easy. One and only one God. That's Islam, and Orthodox Judaism, and to some extent the Christian Trinity, in the sense that the Trinity 'God Head' is one God, though composed of distinct 'Gods' itself - The Father IS God, the Son IS God, and the Holy Ghost is God, while being their own entities as well. Islam considers that polytheistic, so they're actually more aligned with Judaism than Christianity in their definition of monotheism.
But how the Jews got to monotheism is the real interesting stuff, and this is where other definitions come in.
Polytheism is of course the belief in many Gods, each or any of which merits worship. Like in ancient Egypt, Meso, or Greece. I can worship Zeus, or Apollo, or Mercury.
Monolatry is also the belief in many gods, but with only one being worthy of worship. That is more like when Egypt went 'quasi-monotheistic' under the Pharoah Akhenaten. Aten, who had been a god already, was elevated to be the ONLY god that was worthy of worship. Their full pantheon of gods still existed, they just got downgraded to gods you didn't worship. Until Akhenaten died and everybody reverted. Old habits die hard.
And Henotheism is the belief in many gods, all worthy of worship, even in other systems and pantheons, it's just that you pick one, and other people pick their gods. That's where the Israelites were at, I think, coming out of Egypt. They didn't deny the Egyptian gods, or that they should be worshipped (by Egyptians, naturally), but they were choosing tp follow the God that hadn't given them his name yet.
Exodus 3:13 ...they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, 'I Am' hath sent me unto you.
That implies that although Yahweh was 'their father's God', the Israelites had forgotten him during captivity, and had not worshipped him in Egypt.
So at that time, it seems that the Israelites 'believed' other Gods existed, and were worthy of worship by other people, they just weren't the gods they now worshipped. And they seemed pretty ok with that arrangement, too, 500ish years later, as late as 700 BCE, in Micah 4:5
"All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."
When the Israelites became purely monotheistic is a question. And the change from "your god just isn't our God" to "your God is false" is a transitional process that can be tracked through the Bible. It's possible that the big leap came in the wake of the Exile in 586 BCE. A lot of material was written and re-interpreted at that time. Being one breath away from extinction as a nation will make you reassess things sometimes.
I note in the Hebrew Bible that the term 'God" in Psalm 82 is now translated as 'judge,' which would be more monotheistic. But in the NIV, Psalm 82 is translated as 'god.' Indicating a different view. It would be interesting to dig through the Canaanite material found at Ugarit for more on this 'Assembly of Gods.' That's the whole story of ancient Israel...them succumbing to other gods. Even building a statue of Zeu in the Temple one time. So there's no doubt they believed in other gods, and the when and the how is the interesting stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46901
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: If you have some time to kill ...
1
Jul 1, 2024, 1:06 AM
|
|
That was really informative. Thanks for posting.
After all, the name of the person, and nation, is Isra-EL (He who struggles with God). So one might assume a connection between the Canaanite EL and the later, or at least, later revealed, Yahweh.
That remarkable account of Yahweh losing a battle is 2 Kings 3:26
"26 When the king of Moab saw that the battle had gone against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through to the king of Edom, but they failed. 27 Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The fury against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land."
But, it wasn't the only time Yahweh was defeated in battle. The Philistines captured the Ark in 1 Sam 4:10
"10 So the Philistines fought, and Israel was defeated, and they fled, every man to his home. And there was a very great slaughter, for thirty thousand foot soldiers of Israel fell. 11 And the ark of God was captured, and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, died."
However, the Jewish interpretation of those loses was probably that Yahweh didn't actually lose, he just threw the fight to make Israel pay for their transgressions. That was the explanation for both the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions. I'd have to look more closely for an example where Yahweh actually took a true battle loss, if there is one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30396]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9039
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
1
Jun 27, 2024, 8:01 PM
[ in reply to Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?*** ] |
|
That's actually a really good question. I think the answer is "maybe." There seems to be a great deal of respect in Islam for Christians. Like this:
". . . and nearest among them in love [to the believers, Muslims] will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant"
"The believers must (eventually) win. Those who humble themselves in their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds of charity; And who guard their modesty, Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, they are free from blame. But those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors;- Those who faithfully observe their trusts and their covenants; And who (strictly) guard their prayers;- These will be the heirs, Who will inherit Paradise."
“Whoever says: there is no god but Allah [God/Yahweh/etc.] enters Paradise.”
And entry to Heaven is very deed driven, as opposed to faith driven.
“...the person who looks after an orphan and provides for him, will be in Paradise...
“One will not enter Paradise, if one has an atom’s weight of arrogance in his/her heart.”
So it doesn't seem that they see a restriction from other religions entering Heaven, that I can tell. What they don't like though, is any hint of polytheism...including the Trinity.
"Oh People of the Book! [Christians] Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was [only] a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! [God is far above] above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth."
To Muslims, Christians got it all right, they just misinterpreted Jesus as something more than a prophet:
"If only they [Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side.
So I think in general, yes, anyone who acknowledges God can get to Muslim Heaven. [There is apparently one sect that says no one knows what God will do, and all else is folly. So for them, it's impossible to say what God will do. He does as he pleases, and there are no guarantees on anything, and n certain path by acts or faith.]
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
1
Jun 27, 2024, 8:05 PM
|
|
Sounds exactly like what Jesus taught.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
1
Jun 28, 2024, 6:50 PM
|
|
You really read what Jesus taught? Where did Jesus teach that type salvation? He said "No man cometh to The Father but by me.".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 29, 2024, 7:13 PM
|
|
I’m talking about the things he said to do, not believe.
Jesus was about loving your neighbor and caring for the poor, not following the correct theological doctrine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6683]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10357
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Do Muslims believe Christians will go to heaven?***
Jun 29, 2024, 8:56 PM
|
|
Where did He ever not follow the Torah? He also said "the poor you have among you always.".
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13255
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jun 30, 2024, 11:06 PM
|
|
All who are drawn to God by his Holy spirit, through the light of Christ, live in the Kingdom of Heaven
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 1, 2024, 8:20 AM
|
|
I’ll take things Jesus never said for $1000 Alex…
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13255
Joined: 9/1/14
|
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jul 1, 2024, 8:24 AM
|
|
Doesn't understand John 14:20
And I'm not trying to debate you. I'm just giving you the facts.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jul 1, 2024, 8:27 AM
|
|
John 14:15 says if you love me keep my commands. Not have faith or believe or anything like that. Keep my commands.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13255
Joined: 9/25/06
|
Re: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jul 1, 2024, 8:38 AM
|
|
Doesn't understand John 14:15 either.
In 20 Christ describes the relationship between him, God's children, and the Father when we are saved. 6:44 specifically talks about being drawn by God. All those who have experienced this, understand it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jul 1, 2024, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to ^^^^^^^^^^^^ ] |
|
Verse 21…
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
Nothing about faith.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13255
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jul 1, 2024, 8:39 AM
|
|
That entire verse is about Faith
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2356]
TigerPulse: 71%
Posts: 2800
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jul 1, 2024, 9:51 AM
|
|
Except where he says keep my commands.
What does that mean exactly?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13255
Joined: 9/1/14
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jul 2, 2024, 8:48 AM
|
|
“Observing commandments” seem unequivocally like an action to be performed to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [25912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13255
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jul 2, 2024, 10:23 AM
|
|
Which is brought by faith that is given by God and exemplified through the relationship that is described earlier in the chapter.
Receiving commands and obeying them is done through faith.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 8:10 PM
|
|
No. They do not believe "Allah" has a son. Abraham only has 1 seed (Galatians 3:16) and if you belong to Christ thru faith you are part of that 1 seed (Galatians 3:7, 28-29). Which means Muslims & Rev 2:9ers aint part of it no matter how much the one world religion peddlers want you to buy that load of tripe. As a matter of fact, the antichrist will probably come from a Muslim background. Pergamos = seat of Satan. Literal Pergamos = Turkey which is 99% Muslim. Daniel 8:21-25 tells us he will come out of the lands that once comprised the ancient Greek empire....hello Turkey.
The man of sin...Sin was a Mesopotamian moon god whose symbol was the crescent, just like Allah. Sin's sacred # was 30....like Judas's 30 pieces of silver. Judas & the beast are the only 2 men in Scripture called son of perdition. Ishmael was father of the Arabs. He was an archer who was cast a "bowshot" away from his mother. The first horseman in Revelation 6 has a bow.
Dumah was the 6th son of Ishmael. In Rabbinic & Islamic literature, Dumah is the chief demon of hell who has thousands of destroyer angels at his command. His job is to punish the wicked dead. 14 & 28 are numbers significant to Arabic culture & Islam. From the 14 Infallibles to the Arabic alphabet of 28 total letters: 14 sun & 14 moon. The beast is detailed in Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28. Sennacharib came against Judah in the 14th year of Hezekiah. Sennacharib means, "Sin the moon god has replaced the brothers". Sennacharib is an OT type & picture of the beast.
The beast dies in verse 28 of Daniel 11 and his resurrection in verse 29 begins a 14 verse count where he is mentioned thru the end of the chapter. The beast comes in peaceably & with flatteries but ends up a genocidal maniac...the same exact pattern that Islam has always followed. Peaceable & deceptive when they are in the minority. Brutal & repressive as they become the majority.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [59]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
literal nonsense***
Jul 4, 2024, 8:13 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 8:55 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 8:56 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 8:57 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 8:58 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 9:00 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 9:01 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 9:02 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 9:04 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 9:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [31]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 36
Joined: 2/13/24
|
Re: Do you believe Muslims will go to heaven?
Jul 4, 2024, 9:06 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 179
| visibility 10347
|
|
|
50
