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Orange Blooded [2157]
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How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
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Apr 18, 2024, 6:46 AM
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Smiling Tiger® mentioned this in another thread so I thought it deserved it's own.
Funnily enough I heard my kid say this the other day...that god knows what we are going to do before we do it. Guess he heard this in sunday school.
To me this may be the most preposterous claim of all by those that believe in an all powerful deity.
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Lot o points [156043]
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Preposterous?
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Apr 18, 2024, 7:10 AM
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An entity that created the very manner in which our thoughts originate but doesn’t know how to read them? That’s actually preposterous.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 18, 2024, 7:47 AM
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> An entity that created the very manner in which our thoughts originate
the data show that our thoughts evolved naturally. What data do you have that it was created?
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Hall of Famer [24157]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 18, 2024, 7:51 PM
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Do you think there was a consciousness before there was anything else?
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 8:04 AM
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I’m not aware of any verifiable evidence of a consciousness before there was anything else no.
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 12:28 PM
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Wouldn't anything be evidence
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 1:26 PM
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Explain
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Hall of Famer [24157]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 1:34 PM
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There would have to be some sort of original consciousness for a beginning. So, anything would be evidence of an original consciousness.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 1:47 PM
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Why does there have to be an original consciousness?
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Hall of Famer [24157]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 1:56 PM
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To bring the first matter into existence
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 2:02 PM
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Is this the kalam?
If so, it doesn’t necessitate that the first mover is a “who”.
What is your evidence/reasoning for it having to be a conscious creator?
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Hall of Famer [24157]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 2:05 PM
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I haven't studied the Kalam, so I don't think so.
Why does the creator have to be a 'who'.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 2:34 PM
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>Why does the creator have to be a 'who'.
I don't think it does, that was my question to you.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 5:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Preposterous? ] |
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It's a pretty straighforward syllogism:
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.
I just don't think it's obvious that the universe "began to exist", we just know it expanded from a smaller point.
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 3:13 PM
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When did the smaller point begin to exist? How did it come into being. This is where it takes faith to either believe there was a consciousness prior to this or faith to believe there wasn't.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 3:26 PM
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See, this is where we differ. The only evidence we have is after the expansion started. Therefore, neither of us know what happened before, or how it came into being.
I am comfortable saying "I don't know" because that is the truth.
Inserting faith here means you are just guessing.
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 3:54 PM
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There was either a consciousness or there was not. We can narrow it down to two options.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 19, 2024, 4:07 PM
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Sure, we don't have evidence to say which one it was is all i'm saying.
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Hall of Famer [24485]
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Re: Preposterous?
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Apr 18, 2024, 10:16 PM
[ in reply to Preposterous? ] |
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We're so prideful we think 7 billion is a lot. While we look at the sky. And forget what we're looking at.
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All-In [29889]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
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Apr 18, 2024, 3:54 PM
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Two thoughts from this:
First, I'm not sure the idea is preposterous, though the scale may be completely overwhelming to us. I think whether God could know every other being's thoughts depends on whether the universe is finite, or infinite.
If the universe is finite, then it's like a giant deck of 52 cards. If you just keep shuffling them enough, you will eventually shuffle every single combination of those cards.
That's not quite predestination, because one could still do or think anything in whatever sequence they wanted to, but more that every possible thought, outcome, and occurrence is "on record" as a possibility.
Think of how computer chess works. Every possible board and piece configuration is on file. You make a move, and the computer tracks down that configuration, and then finds the best configuration to counter it. Now, there could be trillions upon trillions of configurations, but if the board is limited to 64 squares, and the pieces are limited to 32, there are a finite number of configurations.
So maybe God can't quite predict what you will do, but he has near instantaneous recall from a finite number of options to call on, once you do it. So he knows all the things you COULD think, and knows when you do it.
In that example, of a finite universe, nothing "new" is ever actually created. All of existence is "in the box" one might say. And we, and every 'new' star, and every thought, and everything else, is recycled stardust, or recycled whatever, as the song goes.
If the universe is infinite, however, that idea goes down in flames.
A secondary question that comes to my mind is "How do we know what we know of God?" And how much is that really? There's the story of a Buddhist who was given a Bible to read, which he did, and his reaction was "Nice, story, but not much in there about God."
And when one thinks about it, it's kind of true. I know far, far more about Mrs. Fordt than God. I know what her favorite ice cream is, I know of her childhood, I know how she will react in certain situations, right down to the words she will use, occasionally. I know what she smells like, tastes like, feels like (no pigs), what makes her angry, sad, happy, confused, on and on and on.
But if I read the Bible alone, with no other information or personal experience to call on, what all would I know of God? He wants my worship, he can save me from sin, and he expresses love and anger. And that I'm "created in his image", however vague that may be. So not much, really.
And the things I do know, aside from personal experience, are filtered through other men, like in Sunday School, or oral traditions. I've got the Bible, some apocrypha, some personal testimony from others, and my own personal experiences, and that's about it.
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Orange Blooded [2101]
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I figure that God gave us the information we needed to know....
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Apr 18, 2024, 5:49 PM
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via his Son, Jesus Christ. And that it's our choice how we want to live. If he knows every thought, then I would think that everything is pre-destined. And I don't consider that to be the case.
I'm not of the opinion that God is particularly interested in alot of our daily thoughts & activities. For instance, I don't think he GAS is Clemson beats Georgia this year in Atlanta. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about us. I just figure he's busy, already with enough on his plate.
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: I figure that God gave us the information we needed to know....
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Apr 20, 2024, 10:45 AM
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Jesus didn't touch on every issue, and some of his teachings are not clear. Like salvation. "He" seems to contradict himself on how one obtains it. I say "He" because we are not hearing what Jesus said from Jesus, we are hearing what Jesus said from others, after thousands of years of interpretation and editing.
Also, Christians seem to go by the words of Paul more than Jesus.
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Hall of Famer [24157]
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
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Apr 19, 2024, 7:21 AM
[ in reply to Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking? ] |
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I see what you are saying Fordt, however we are supposedly created in the image of this being.
If god is the universe, or some kind of super computer beyond comprehension, that sort of changes the whole perception that religion gives of “Him” doesn’t it?
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All-In [29889]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
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Apr 19, 2024, 11:52 AM
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The Big Dog®
>that sort of changes the whole perception that religion gives of “Him” doesn’t it?
Yes, but the Bible itself also acknowledges that we only see though a glass 'darkly.' So it's saying we don't understand, or perceive, in full, in any way.
Plus, it kind of depends on what 'image' means. A picture of a car is a 2D image, on paper, of a 3D object that is made of composite alloys. There is an aspect of resemblance between the two, but the two are also fundamentally different. One is ink on a piece of paper, the other is much more.
So 'image' is a pretty lightweight word, when compared to 'essence' or 'form', or any other number of words that could have been used.
Also, we have to trust that the guy who made the comparison, 'image', even got it right in the first place.
>If god is the universe,
It's a fundamentally different way of looking at existence, for sure. Think of your own body. 'You' are a composite entity, but you are also made up of trillions of individual cells, which each have their own life cycles. They are born, live, and die just as the greater entity does. How is the life essence of one of your cells different than the life of 'you?' Do they have consciousness?
What if we, and all of existence, are all just cells in the 'body' of God? Every one of your cells carries your DNA, so aren't they in the 'image' of you as a whole?
So many questions, and so many descriptions of God beyond the Judeo-Christian interpretation.
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Orange Blooded [3080]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 18, 2024, 5:02 PM
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Just curious, did you tell your kid how preposterous you find that and contradict his Sunday school lesson?
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 18, 2024, 6:02 PM
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Just curious, have you told your kid they will be tortured for eternity for believing the wrong thing? Don’t act like dog is the ahole here
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Orange Blooded [3080]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 18, 2024, 7:23 PM
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Oh, I don't think he's the ahole here.
I raised my son in my beliefs. He's now grown and can decide for himself matters of faith.
Are you ready to tell me of all the "benefits" homosexuals offer society?
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 18, 2024, 7:53 PM
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To you? No thanks.
We’d have to get your epistemology to a reasonable place first, too much work.
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Orange Blooded [3080]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 18, 2024, 7:58 PM
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Lol. I'll take the win.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 18, 2024, 7:59 PM
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Like I said…
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Orange Blooded [2101]
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 18, 2024, 8:14 PM
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Lmao He’s REALLY interested in them…
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Orange Blooded [3080]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 19, 2024, 5:34 AM
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You're the guy who brought up "benefits" of homosexuals. I asked for clarification. You dodged it. On another post you suggested religion confused people about owning sex slaves. I asked for clarification - who specifically you knew who was confused about this. You dodged that, too.
You are quick to confront people here with demands for proof or evidence backing up their claims. All the while you quite willing to make asinine comments and then when called on them, you dodge. Suddenly there is no need for any evidence or, the people you're engaging with are just not evolved enough to understand.
Seems now that fewer people here engage with you. I can now see why. You've always come off as arrogant and confrontational. Now you just seem full of crap.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
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Apr 19, 2024, 7:44 AM
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You can call it dodging all you want, but the fact is, any time I've presented evidence for evolution, you just say "nuh uh".
But sure, let's do it again, here are some data showing:
"Same-sex sexual behaviour seems to be a common behavior in mammals and is a social benefit.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-41290-x
You won't like this one, it explains how you got a date:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17146141/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20alliance%2Dformation,thereby%20increase%20their%20reproductive%20success.
Here's the thing, we know what your actual goal here is, and that is to say evolution is wrong. If you want to talk about that, you are in for a bad time. The data unequivocally shows we evolved from a common ancestor.
Look up endogenous retro viruses. It's a thermonuclear dunk on creationism on its own.
The fact is, organisms evolved over time, there is no debating that, but what people like you will do is try to pick a part of an ancillary piece that isn't as well understood and act like it's a chink in evolution's armor.
It's like saying, 'We don't know exactly how birds navigate for thousands of miles, so they probably just get lost all the time.' We see birds migrating every year, so we know they can do it. We just need to figure out the details.
>Seems now that fewer people here engage with you. I can now see why. You've always come off as arrogant and confrontational.
Arrogant and confrontational is a religious man's game. I'm not the one claiming to know what god wants or telling people they are going to be brutally tortured for eternity if they don't believe what I do. Oh and then they need 10% of your income.
>Now you just seem full of crap.
Except I've got the goods. Hard evidence.
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Orange Blooded [3080]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
Apr 19, 2024, 5:25 AM
[ in reply to Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking? ] |
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It's a reference to another thread where Echoes was educating me on all the benefits homosexuals provided society. I asked him to describe the benefits. Not the benefit someone provides, but how that benefit is related to their sexual desires. He chose not to answer that - presumably for the same reasons he doesn't answer it now - I'm not evolved enough to understand.
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Orange Blooded [2101]
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Well, they provide the benefits of being human....
Apr 19, 2024, 7:40 AM
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They're not criminal by their very existence. So, I think no one should have to describe the benefits. Particularly in a country like the USA, with so much diversity, their contributions to society should be obvious, same as any other sub-group.
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Orange Blooded [2157]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
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Apr 19, 2024, 7:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking? ] |
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Well he’s only 5 so no. Honestly I think it’s cute when they come home and say things like that. I love when they ask deeper questions like who made god and where is god.
I do plan on being open with them as they get older about the things that were hidden from me in my conservative Christian upbringing.
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Hall of Famer [24157]
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Re: How could a single being know what every other being is thinking?
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Apr 18, 2024, 7:56 PM
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Well, if the deity is all powerful, then it stands to reason the deity would know everything including all thoughts.
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Orange Blooded [2101]
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"All Powerful"....
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Apr 18, 2024, 8:12 PM
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isn't the same thing as saying that God knows all thoughts, or knows the exact position of every particle in the universe. Just seems too much for a Creator that mostly turned us loose to do what we want on this Earth, which is less than a micro-spec in the universe.
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Hall of Famer [24157]
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Re: "All Powerful"....
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Apr 18, 2024, 8:23 PM
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Probably a bit of a Calvinist or something like that. As in, you can do what you want, but it was preordained.
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Orange Blooded [2101]
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If everything is pre-ordained....
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Apr 19, 2024, 1:49 PM
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then life is meaningless, and we're not actually making choices.
So, I don't buy into the pre-ordained view. I think we are making choices, and those choices impact the future state...
When Hitler was allowed to leave prison in late 2024 after serving only about a year, after the treasonous Beer Hall Putsch, the decision-makers were making a choice that ultimately greatly contributed to the doomed fate of millions of Jews during the Holocaust. It was not pre-ordained by God or anyone else that 6 million Jews had to die during WW2.
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Orange Blooded [2101]
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"1924"***
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Apr 19, 2024, 1:58 PM
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Hall of Famer [24157]
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Re: If everything is pre-ordained....
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Apr 19, 2024, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to If everything is pre-ordained.... ] |
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I lean towards the omnipotence of God in this debate.
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Orange Blooded [2101]
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Seems cruel then to me.****
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Apr 19, 2024, 2:30 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93745]
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You know what's preposterous?
Apr 19, 2024, 8:17 PM
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Psa 139:
"(To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me."
God doesn't take a casual glance at your mind, He searches it.
"2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off."
Your kid is wiser than you, dood.
"3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
He's all around you in space and in time and he knows exactly how you conduct yourself.
"4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether."
He knows every word you're going to say.
"5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me."
IDK about you but that certainly applies to me.
"6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
You're probably wondering how He does it. Some folks think David was wondering how God did it but God said David was a man 'after my own heart!'
I'm wondering why He does it.
Preposterous is believing that this world came from nothing. All this physics, chemistry, biology and mathematical truths just happened incidentally. That's preposterous.
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Commissioner [988]
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Re: You know what's preposterous?
Apr 19, 2024, 9:05 PM
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>Preposterous is believing that this world came from nothing. All this physics, chemistry, biology and mathematical truths just happened incidentally. That's preposterous.
So you are saying that physics, chemistry, biology and mathematical truths are too complicated to just exist, but your solution is an even more complicated thing?
Explain that logic. How could an omniscient being just exist? It's the same logic you are using.
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Orange Blooded [2101]
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Do you think God knows what we're going to do before we do it?....
Apr 19, 2024, 10:44 PM
[ in reply to You know what's preposterous? ] |
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Do you think it's all pre-destined?
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Oculus Spirit [93745]
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No, it's not all predestined.
Apr 22, 2024, 7:03 AM
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This should be a thread starter. Those born of God's Spirit are predestined.
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Replies: 48
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