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Oculus Spirit [90820]
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Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration!
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Jul 4, 2023, 2:44 PM
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And, the last paragraph is said to be a Prayer for Devine Wisdom.
The word used 4 times in The Declaration of Independence to dissolve our sovereignty from the World’s most powerful & feared nation Great Britain was: GOD~
Saying, if one wants to think our Founders weren’t religious, had total Faith in something called Government or weren’t fearful of The Almighty, then please think again.
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Legend [19933]
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Re: Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration!
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Jul 4, 2023, 2:46 PM
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WORD!
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Oculus Spirit [90820]
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Yep..Blessed “Name” would have been better~
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Jul 4, 2023, 2:59 PM
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Thx.
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Legend [19950]
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You won't find that word in the Constitution, though
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Jul 4, 2023, 3:22 PM
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The Founding Fathers had a wide variety of religious beliefs and non-beliefs. Benjamin Franklin was a deist. Thomas Jefferson attended a Unitarian church and created his own version of the Bible, keeping the parts he liked and discarding the rest. James Madison was not religious in any conventional sense.
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
- Thomas Paine
"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
- John Adams
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
- James Madison
"That Jesus Christ was not God is evident from his own words... I am no Christian."
- Ethan Allen
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Hall of Famer [22362]
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Ben Franklin was a Deist?
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:00 PM
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Please define "deist."
Is your definition consistent with this quote from Franklin, that he gave to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia?
*******
“I have lived a long time, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth—that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?”
*******
It was during this same speech that he implored the convention to start each morning session with “prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on [their] deliberations.”
And, from that point on, they did. In fact, that is why every session of Congress, up to and including today, Congress begins each morning with prayer.
So, does Ben Franklin meet your definition of a Deist?
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Legend [19950]
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Re: Ben Franklin was a Deist?
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:12 PM
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I wasn't familiar with that speech, but Franklin refers to himself as a "thorough deist" in his own autobiography. People and their beliefs can certainly change over time, though.
I found an article that tries to answer your question, so I'll quote an excerpt here:
Franklin thought the arguments for deism were stronger than the Christian polemics that his father preferred. “In short I soon became a thorough deist,” Franklin wrote.
But as we follow Franklin through his adult life, he was constantly doing and saying things that didn’t seem very deistic. His speeches and letters were full of allusions to the Bible, and he angrily forecast that God would bring judgment against the British enemy during the American Revolution. Most famously, the elderly Franklin proposed in 1787 that the Constitutional Convention open its meetings with prayer...
How can we reconcile Franklin the deist with Franklin the man of prayer? I would suggest two main explanations. First, “deism” could mean many different things in eighteenth-century Europe and America. At a minimum, it meant a critical view of some points of traditional Christianity. But deists held a wide range of views on some basic religious questions. Some contended that they believed in the Bible, but they opposed “priestcraft” and the power of the church. Others doubted the reliability of Scripture altogether. Some deists espoused the classic “watchmaker” view of God: the deity had wound up the world and went away, never to be involved with humankind again. Other deists, including Franklin, believed that God intervened in history, and that God responded to prayer. To Franklin, being a deist meant doubting tenets such as Jesus’s divinity. But it hardly meant the denial of an active, superintending God.
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/2017/05/12/reconciling-deism-and-puritanism-in-benjamin-franklin/
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CU Medallion [57158]
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In other words, you had no idea.***
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:17 PM
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Hall of Famer [22362]
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I think the problem is...
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ben Franklin was a Deist? ] |
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.... the word "deist" had a different connotation than it does today.
Been Franklin was a Deist. That meant, in his time, he believed in God. It meant he was not an atheist nor an agnostic.
But, today, some revisionists like to apply todays' definition to the 1780s meaning. Makes a good story. But, it isn't accurate. By today's definition, Franklin was definitely not a deist.
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Legend [19950]
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He believed in a God, yes
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:42 PM
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but not necessarily the Christian God. He certainly had his doubts regarding Jesus' divinity.
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Hall of Famer [22362]
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I never said he was a Christian.
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Jul 4, 2023, 7:25 PM
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Just pointed out that he clearly wasn't a deist by today's definition. And, it is quite common fro people today, who want to revise the history of the founding of this country, are quick to call him a deist.
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Re: You won't find that word in the Constitution, though
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:06 PM
[ in reply to You won't find that word in the Constitution, though ] |
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Another good one from Ethan Allen:
"That generation is all dead and passed away, yet the Son of Man has not made his appearance in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory, to judge the world, and cause the tribes of the earth to mourn; nor has he sent forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, to gather his elect from one end of heaven to the other. Since all this has not come to pass immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem, as he foretold, what character does he deserve but a false prophet, a deceiver, or an enthusiast? It is very unlike a God of truth to deceive the world in this manner. Is it like his Son to be the instrument of it? His words have passed away, but the earth has not, so that these prophecies and sayings have proved to be completely false; but though he prophesied of that day, yet he said that he did not know when it would come; even though him and his Father were one, yet the Father only knew of it!"
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Legend [17918]
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Jesus never said that He would
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Jul 4, 2023, 10:59 PM
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come "immediately" after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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None of our founders had ever lived in a nation...
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Jul 4, 2023, 6:31 PM
[ in reply to You won't find that word in the Constitution, though ] |
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which wasn't run by using religion to shore up government power. Up unto the founding of America nearly every nation which ever existed had one or more established religions and one or many gods. All of them believed that a man should have the right to worship or not worship any or no god as a choice.
None wanted a national religion and neither do I for if government could adopt Christianity it could also adopt atheism. Our founders were not lacking in education nor intelligence. All of them saw that religion corrupted government and government corrupted religion.
They wanted a nation which of free, one which the people ruled themselves rather than a pope or preacher dictating what should and should not be law.
I love Jesus Christ with all my heart for He is my Lord and Savior but no government can force people to love one another and that is what is required of Christians; that we love even our enemies as we love ourselves. How can government change a man's heart?
I also do not believe morality can be legislated. I do not want morality legislated I only wish for civility among our citizenry and politics is anything but civil. Therefor, I do not participate in political arguments.
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Hall of Famer [22362]
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Morality can't be legislated?
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Jul 4, 2023, 7:33 PM
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Laws against murder, theft, rape, child abuse, etc. certainly legislate morality.
In fact, I would claim that EVERY law has at its very root a basis in morality.
Speeding laws are meant to make life safer for everyone, not just the person speeding. All traffic laws - red lights, stop signs, even turn lanes - are there to protect the life and safety of others, a moral basis.
The disagreement is not over legislating morality. It is over what is moral.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: Morality can't be legislated?
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Jul 4, 2023, 7:57 PM
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If the only reason man refrains from theft, rape, child abuse, etc is due to the law how does that constitute calling him moral?
I said 'morality can't be legislated...' I said nothing about what is nor what is not moral.
Bret, the only difference in our opinion on this is that, even though we both serve God, I do not choose to argue about trivial matters such as politics.
I am not reluctant to say abusing a child is wrong or rape is evil and of a sinful heart. It simply does not please God that I involve myself in politics. I know and acknowledge that His will about this matter for me may be exclusively for me.
I also understand that He has your address and it's unlikely that our Heavenly mail carrier is going to drop a letter to you in my mailbox.
I am not telling you what to believe or how to conduct yourself for that is exclusively the Holy Spirit's perview.
I know one of the reasons God wants me to stay away from politics and political discussions: Such takes time which I should spend reading, studying and memorizing Psalms and in worship of God. I need that more than anyone.
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110%er [5063]
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Re: Morality can't be legislated?
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Jul 4, 2023, 8:58 PM
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Do you vote? If not, then you have no say in politics, but I would think that God would want you to put Christians in office. It is dubious to think of any politician as being Christian, but we know that the more "moral" laws you break, the less likely you are to be a Christian. You should point out those immoralities to people to help them decide to vote for...So, it is my opinion that God does not want you to be silent on politics. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's!
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Tell me what this means.
Jul 5, 2023, 1:31 PM
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Psalms 139:
"12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
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110%er [5063]
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Re: Tell me what this means.
Jul 5, 2023, 2:34 PM
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It means to cleanse me from the sins that I did not know of when I did it, and are still not known to me...off the top of my head. What are you bringing it up for? It also means that sins that are not known could be morality problems, and not "listed" sins.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: Tell me what this means.
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Jul 5, 2023, 4:12 PM
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If we aren't able to examine ourselves, how then can we examine another? You suggest that I judge politicians and not only decide who is worth of my vote but to also certify them with others. That would make me a participant of a truly worldly matter.
That's all above my paygrade.
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110%er [5063]
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Re: Tell me what this means.
Jul 7, 2023, 7:24 PM
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I am bought and paid for by Jesus...I do what I think Jesus wants me to do. Fail miserably often. but, If a preacher can get up and tell his congregation what to think about sin, then why would we be limited and not be able to do that? And if a person is sinning often (like most democrats do that are in DC, and some republicans) then should we not point it out. Surely you are not falling back on the old, incorrect interpretation that we are not to judge others...
Who said we are not able to examine ourselves? I just did that when I said that I fail miserably! If we can't examine ourselves, then how can a catholic go to confession? What that verse pertains to is when we have caused harm to another without knowing it (such as causing a traffic accident due to our actions, and not even knowing we did it...those are the types of "sins" talked about in that verse...when someone else thinks we just sinned, but we never know it! Kind of like mowing grass on Sunday...we do it because we like doing it, and don't consider it "work", but others think we are committing a sin.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: You won't find that word in the Constitution, though
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Jul 4, 2023, 7:57 PM
[ in reply to You won't find that word in the Constitution, though ] |
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Franklin was a Deist? Do you know what a Deist believes? Franklin prayed for God's intervention during the impass at the Continental Congress. That is proven, non disputed fact. Do deists seek God to act and intervene? No, they do not!
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CU Guru [1143]
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Re: You won't find that word in the Constitution, though
Jul 5, 2023, 2:00 PM
[ in reply to You won't find that word in the Constitution, though ] |
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Paines quote on not believing in the creed from each church actually says nothing at all about whether he believes in God or not. It simply says he doesn't believe in those churches creeds. It's people that really want to believe that these guys were atheists their entire lives that want to selectively pull quotes out of context and ignore others. Truth is, some weren't believers, some were, some changed throughout their lives, they did recognize that an official religion can be bad which is why there wasn't one outlined from the beginning, yet that doesn't mean religion is bad. There's a big difference in saying something is good and it should be state sponsored, the same way saying something is bad and it should be banned. There's a thing called freedom, and that's what they were focused on at the time. We've lost sight of that.
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Orange Blooded [2533]
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Irrelevant to his point....
Jul 8, 2023, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to You won't find that word in the Constitution, though ] |
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His point stands alone. No need to justify some sort of atheistic position because of different stances and beliefs. And the Declaration is arguably a more sacred document than the constitution. Lincoln appealed to it as an ultimate guide to keeping the nation as one.
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All-TigerNet [10216]
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The snowflakes aren’t going to like thaaaat!
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Jul 4, 2023, 3:39 PM
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Lol..anti-Americans
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All-Pro [686]
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Re: The snowflakes aren’t going to like thaaaat!
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Jul 4, 2023, 3:43 PM
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Here we go! Wrong bored whatever your position on the matter if thisone is still about CU fb. just sayin'
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Legend [18792]
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110%er [6982]
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Re: Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration!
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:07 PM
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It was founded on the ideology of separation of church and state. Which around the world is a very innovative concept. For example, in Germany, it's compulsory to donate to the Catholic Church, it comes out of your paycheck. Until recently, in Great Britain you had to be the same religion is the king of England. In the Middle East, it's legal to discriminate against you based on your religion. The wonderful thing about the United States, you can be any religion, you want, and the government cannot punish you or force you to worship against your will. I do feel there are people in the United States who would like to change all this, but it will never happen. Religious freedom is a fundamental right of an American, and if that changes, it will cease to be America.
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All-In [30460]
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Well it SHOULD BE that way - never has
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:58 PM
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Our country is a cess pool of religious theocracy.
I don’t care what your religious beliefs are, but any law based on religious beliefs should be stricken from the books forever. People’s mythological fantasies should be used to rule over others.
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Asst Coach [702]
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Re: Well it SHOULD BE that way - never has
Jul 5, 2023, 2:02 PM
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You could argue that every single law ever written was based on religion to some degree. Obviously a philosophical debate about where morality comes from, but our current state of morals we legislate came directly from an implied creator.
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110%er [5063]
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Separation of church and state fallacy
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Jul 4, 2023, 5:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration! ] |
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No such thing as separation of church and state in our founding documents. Our Bill of rights clearly states that freedom OF religion must be practiced. It does not say freedom FROM religion. All our founding fathers wanted was for the church to not be controlled by the government. But now, laws to control charitable organizations control the churches. If you say that there is separation of the two, then how can the government tell the churches what are acceptable practices to stay a charitable organization?
Message was edited by: JPRICH Top Paw®
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Separation of church and state fallacy
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Jul 4, 2023, 5:42 PM
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Great post. Not into Blue Laws though.
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110%er [5063]
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Re: Separation of church and state fallacy
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Jul 4, 2023, 6:01 PM
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True, but if we have true separation of church and state, then why do almost all government agencies close on Sunday?
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Asst Coach [702]
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Re: Separation of church and state fallacy
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Jul 5, 2023, 3:58 PM
[ in reply to Separation of church and state fallacy ] |
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100%. Like people quoting leviticus out of context, nonbelievers that are historically ignorant use "separation of church and state" in the reverse manner it was intended. Much like "the potentially tyrannical government is supposed to regulate the weapons citizens would use to prevent said tyranny".
It's either historical ignorance or tyrannical thinking themselves.
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Hall of Famer [22362]
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Meaning of "wall of separation of church and state."
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Jul 4, 2023, 7:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration! ] |
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First, that phrase is not in the Constitution. SCOTUS wrote it in Everson v Board of Education in 1947.
SCOTUS also wrote in Church of the Holy Trinity v United states, in 1892, "...there can be no doubtthis is a Christian nation." (I would encourage anyone to read the decision and then try to explain that the "wall of spearation" means that religion should have no role in government.)
Neither of those decisions has been overturned, so both are still the law of the land.
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110%er [9300]
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Good stuff Bill
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Jul 4, 2023, 4:09 PM
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Knew it was your post before I clicked it. You're still sharp as a tack.
Happy 4th
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Oculus Spirit [90820]
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Thx much gville76…
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Jul 4, 2023, 5:12 PM
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yep, still fiery & history-oriented from taking 3-4 yrs worth of it in that ole brick building over-looking the Amphitheater at dear ole Clemson.
Happy 4th Sir~
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CU Medallion [52460]
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration!
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Jul 4, 2023, 7:55 PM
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They definitely were religious. The modern notion that Washington was a deist is laughable on its face.
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110%er [5484]
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Re: Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration!
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Jul 4, 2023, 8:42 PM
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Thanks Bill. The revisionist would have us believe otherwise, but scripture and specifically God’s covenantal relationship with this people is the foundation of this republic. Gods providence was evident in our founding and blessed our development.
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Recruit [89]
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Re: Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration!
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Jul 4, 2023, 11:05 PM
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Does it say you can be gay and/or black.
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Freshman [-100]
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A nation built on faith, Christian faith...
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Jul 5, 2023, 9:47 AM
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A faith that has raped children for 1000s of years and continues to do so.
Hence, a nation that elects a "Grab em by the P..." president while he is supported by most of said Faith's leaders.
Y'all aren't nearly as God-like a you imagine yourselves to be.
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All-In [25712]
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Re: A nation built on faith, Christian faith...
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Jul 5, 2023, 12:54 PM
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You may want to look at and study the genealogy of Jesus. You will find that it includes no saints, but plenty of sinners. The church is not a gathering place for saints, but sinners. God did not send his son to save saints. Get the picture?
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Freshman [-100]
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Yes, I get the picture...
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Jul 5, 2023, 3:00 PM
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You support Christianity's excuses for exonerating rapists.
Christians are an unGodly bunch.
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All-In [25712]
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Re: Yes, I get the picture...
Jul 5, 2023, 4:29 PM
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How do I support anyone ###### anyone? I have no idea to what you are referring.
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Freshman [-100]
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If you don't understand the reference
Jul 5, 2023, 6:44 PM
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Perhaps stay out of the discussion?
It was a straightforward reference... There's a lot of rape and murder in the name of Christianity. If you belong to or support such organizations, you support their actions.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: If you don't understand the reference
Jul 5, 2023, 7:17 PM
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What are you talking about? Catholic priests?
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110%er [5484]
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Re: Yes, I get the picture...
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Jul 5, 2023, 8:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yes, I get the picture... ] |
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JYD, Jesus said “cast not your pearls before swine lest they turn and rend you to pieces”
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Oculus Spirit [80413]
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Joined: 8/21/06
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Interesting find, thanks Bill +1***
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Jul 5, 2023, 10:46 AM
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110%er [5512]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 10/21/15
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Re: Our FOUNDING Fathers used this “word” 4 times in Declaration!
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Jul 5, 2023, 3:06 PM
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The word "god" is in the declaration of independence once.
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Oculus Spirit [90820]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 45503
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Let’s count again, together, and at a place like
Jul 5, 2023, 4:04 PM
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The ESSO Club over a cheese burger & shake!
LOL~
Well, whatever the # is one can rightly say that our Founders did use GOD in the DOI but rightly not in The Constitution.
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Heisman Winner [111646]
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Joined: 9/10/03
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God means something different to everyone
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Jul 5, 2023, 8:16 PM
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across all religions or lack thereof. But not once did they EVER mention Jesus, ever, so let's not get too carried away.
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