|
Replies: 51
| visibility 1062
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 20, 2020, 10:44 PM
|
|
than the one which usually gets told. People often mention what a bad recruiter he was. He was mentioned in a few posts today, so it made me curious to see just how bad his classes were.
Warning: if you are still mad about Ford resigning/being fired, Hatfield being hired, the job Hatfield did at Clemson, or any combination of these, to the point that you are unable to separate your emotion from this discussion, please hit the back button now. TIA.
Hatfield arrived at Clemson in late January 1990, so he had very little time to assemble a recruiting class before signing day. This resulted in an unheralded class in 1990. Nonetheless, he still signed some good players, including RB Ronald Williams, RB Derrick Witherspoon, LB Tim Jones, DL Warren Forney, and K Nelson Welch.
In June of 1990, we were placed on football probation for the second time in less than a decade. It’s hard to know how much this impacted recruiting, but I assume it wasn’t significant since these penalties imposed weren’t as severe as those the previous time. The 1991 class ranked 35th. Louis Solomon and Darnell Stephens were in this class.
Our 1992 recruiting class was Hatfield’s best, ranked 6th nationally by SuperPrep. It included Brian Dawkins, Leomont Evans, Dexter McCleon, Emory Smith, and Patrick Sapp. Dawkins is the only former Clemson Tiger to make it to the NFL Hall of Fame.
The 1993 class was Hatfield’s last. It was ranked 24th nationally. Not as many big contributors in this class, which included Antwuan Wyatt and Jim Bundren.
While Hatfield certainly didn’t recruit as well as Danny Ford did in the late 80s, he did sign some good players.
Interestingly, based on class rankings, he didn’t recruit as well as Tommy West but arguably recruited better than Tommy Bowden:
Tommy West
1994 16th
1995 10th
1996 14th
1997 15th
1998 26th
Tommy Bowden
1999 24th
2000 31st
2001 11th
2002 22nd
2003 67th
2004 61st
2005 17th
2006 16th
2007 16th
2008 12th
I’m so thankful for Dabo! We are very blessed.
|
|
|
|
 |
Tiger Titan [48079]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 49059
Joined: 2004
|
Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 20, 2020, 11:05 PM
|
|
His best class kind of sucked and was obviously overrated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
Why did that class suck?
May 20, 2020, 11:09 PM
|
|
Brian Dawkins, Patrick Sapp, Emory Smith, and Dexter McCleon were good players.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [48079]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 49059
Joined: 2004
|
Re: Why did that class suck?
May 21, 2020, 4:52 AM
|
|
Sapp was overrated. We had trouble even figuring his natural position. He looked the part. He was nothing special on the field. Emory was just above average. That class was weak overall. Dexter turned into a very good player as a db, but overall that class pretty much sucked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [10213]
TigerPulse: 71%
45
Posts: 10276
Joined: 2017
|
In regards to Patrick Sapp...
1
May 21, 2020, 7:17 AM
|
|
Credit to Hatfield for signing him, but Hatfield didn’t know what to do with him.
Sapp was a 17/18 year-old-kid who wanted to play QB, but it wasn’t his natural position. He was there because he did have an unbelievable cannon of an arm. It was amazing to watch him throw.
Anyway...it was Tommy West who made Sapp a lot of money by convincing him to switch to LB in his senior year.
Also....
Legend has it that we missed on Tommy Frazier that year because we signed Sapp as a QB. So if that’s the case...maybe not such a smooth move by Hatfield.
(No disrespect to Sapp - great Clemson man)
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Champion [111405]
TigerPulse: 100%
65
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [1673]
TigerPulse: 88%
31
|
Re: Why did that class suck?
May 21, 2020, 6:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why did that class suck? ] |
|
Sapp-2nd rnd NFL choice, prolly categorized as a "bust" though; West's best effort towards improving the passing game was on display, w/ Sapp at QB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2584]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
|
Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 20, 2020, 11:06 PM
|
|
Hatfield was handed a team that could have challenged for the top ratings. His first year he wan the Maryland game because the Maryland coach was stupid. Even Jim Phillips said that on the broadcast. Two or three times he was inside the ten yard line against GT, and scored no points. Then asked our kicker to try and kick a 60yard field goal on a cold day. Hatfield had the bad habit of running the opposition in the ground and then in the third quarter, he would try and prove we could pass, which lead to a lot of 3 and outs. The loss of Ford cost us Shrine Bowl running back from a school that within four years put out a real good wide receiver, Mr. Football and Basketball as a QB. and a defensive end who was the No. 1 pick in the Pro draft. That kind of recruiting within the state of SC created a negative pressure differential. Yeah, ol'Kenny did us good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
Okay, but this thread is about his recruiting.***
May 20, 2020, 11:11 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Conqueror [11931]
TigerPulse: 100%
46
Posts: 14488
Joined: 2014
|
Re: Okay, but this thread is about his recruiting.***
May 20, 2020, 11:41 PM
|
|
And I seem to recall that Hatfield had very little support from the administration and the fans. Four years, three ranked teams, three bowls, and two bowl victories (although West coached the last one in 1993). Not a bad job, just very bad timing for him. I've always thought that bringing in someone from outside the ACC/SEC region would make it that much more difficult for that person to recruit, at least right away. And replacing Ford was going to put the new guy on the hot seat immediately. Just not a good situation. I would put more of the blame on the Clemson administration.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Elite [69328]
TigerPulse: 100%
61
Posts: 42634
Joined: 2004
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
I’m not saying he was a good recruiter. My point is that he wasn’t nearly the bad recruiter
May 21, 2020, 9:13 AM
|
|
some people keep saying he was.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [17580]
TigerPulse: 92%
51
Posts: 27655
Joined: 2003
|
Oh, of course he was, he was a horrible ####### recruiter
May 21, 2020, 4:00 PM
|
|
and it devastated our two deep...We had a two deep along the lines of scrimmage that could play with anybody in the country, by the time he left we couldn't even sub, and our LOS were middle of the pack in the ACC...It's taken 20 years to get back to where we were when Danny left on the OL and it was Ken who submarined us
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
I don’t agree that the problem was as drastic as you state.
May 21, 2020, 6:53 PM
|
|
We were 8-3 his last year. While the talent level had absolutely dropped off, it wasn’t so bad that it required a 20 year rebuild.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [17580]
TigerPulse: 92%
51
Posts: 27655
Joined: 2003
|
Our LOS were middle of the pack, because we had no
May 21, 2020, 11:51 PM
|
|
depth...Our OL, in particular, would have to play every snap and that proved les than effective as the game/season wore on...It's not his fault it took us 20 years to climb out of his hole, but to deny he wrecked our 2 deep is disingenuous at best.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
The reason Danny Ford lost his job was...Danny Ford.
May 20, 2020, 11:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story ] |
|
Major NCAA sanctions in the early-mid 80s, plus NCAA investigations again in the late 80s (which ultimately resulted in probation again in 1990 after Danny was fired), coupled with Danny publicly challenging Clemson administrators, led to him being let go.
|
|
|
|
|
|
National Champion [8012]
TigerPulse: 98%
42
|
Re: The reason Danny Ford lost his job was...Danny Ford.
May 21, 2020, 6:45 PM
|
|
Danny put Clemson on the map and Dabo turned Clemson into a dynasty.....very thankful for both these guys.....Go Tigers!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
Me too. Both great football coaches!***
May 21, 2020, 6:54 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Champion [119070]
TigerPulse: 100%
65
Posts: 76725
Joined: 2003
|
West brought in some good ones, including Bandon Streeter.
May 20, 2020, 11:22 PM
|
|
But a lot of Tommy West's best recruits never got in, or got kicked out at some point. it was a way different culture back then. Bowden at least pointed the ship in kind of the right direction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
That’s a great point. Lots of attrition in West’s recruiting classes.***
May 21, 2020, 9:13 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [17580]
TigerPulse: 92%
51
Posts: 27655
Joined: 2003
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Champion [119070]
TigerPulse: 100%
65
Posts: 76725
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Streeter was good?***
May 21, 2020, 6:09 PM
|
|
last I checked, he recruited and landed Trevor Lawrence. So yeah, he was a great addition to the program. And the kid had some guts on the field. He will never have to prove his toughness to any one ever again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [79307]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 29389
Joined: 2018
|
Re: Streeter was good?***
May 21, 2020, 6:59 PM
[ in reply to Streeter was good?*** ] |
|
Just wow.
It was the offensive line that was missing when Streeter was on the field. He was the toughest QB I’ve ever seen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [35]
TigerPulse: 80%
4
|
Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 21, 2020, 12:10 AM
|
|
I won't argue recruiting class rankings, but anyone sitting in the stands saw a huge drop in physicality, athleticism, and competitiveness from '90 to '94.
It didn't really matter if it was Hatfield or West, the Academic and Athletic Administrations didn't really care about the results on the field during this time period.
As Max Lennon was supposed to have said, "Seven wins is the perfect number. It keeps the alumni giving but the football coach doesn't get too powerful."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
While I’m no fan of Max Lennon
May 21, 2020, 9:18 AM
|
|
I do understand the need for a football coach to recognize that he isn’t too big for the university. I imagine Lennon’s intention was to control a football program that represented our school in a poor light off the field, despite its success on the field.
It’s obviously too bad it ended the way it did, with Ford being forced out.
I absolutely agree that our talent level as well as the overall quality of our team had declined considerably by the end of Hatfield’s tenure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Icon [149871]
TigerPulse: 100%
68
Posts: 35313
Joined: 2010
|
Agreed...
May 21, 2020, 5:39 AM
|
|
If we look back at the past 40+ years, and study Clemson’s 5 head football coaches over that span, Hatfield would be ranked 5th in recruiting results, trailing only Dabo, Ford, West, and Bowden.
This is your most accurate football post to date.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
Thanks for weighing in.***
May 21, 2020, 10:12 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Champion [111405]
TigerPulse: 100%
65
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
Top 5 over 40+ years really dwarfs FSU's 14 year span...
May 22, 2020, 6:46 AM
[ in reply to Agreed... ] |
|
good on Ken.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [10437]
TigerPulse: 100%
45
|
If you want an inside view of Hatfield's recruiting
May 21, 2020, 7:21 AM
|
|
Check out this podcast. Nelson Welch appeared on the Dubcast by Larry Williams of Tiger Illustrated. He was very blunt about the type of athletes that Ken Hatfield recruited. Nelson Welch (our place kicker and punter) could bench more than the offensive linemen that Hatfield brought into the program.
https://clemsondubcast.podbean.com/e/nelson-welch/ Nelson Welch Former Tiger great Nelson Welch joins The Dubcast to update on his progress since his heart attack in the summer of 2018. Welch also reminisces about the wild, strange era of Clemson football from 1990 to 1994 when the Tigers transitioned from Danny Fo
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-the-clemson-dubcast-31101747/episode/nelson-welch-52334121/
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18892]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 13652
Joined: 2003
|
Thanks for this nwillhit***
May 21, 2020, 9:17 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [85]
TigerPulse: 40%
9
|
Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 21, 2020, 7:46 AM
|
|
The problem with Hatfield wasn't the players he signed but the ones that got away.
Today the communication between our staff and prospects is continuous from the time we offer until they are on campus and in class.
Hatfield's staff would move onto the next prospect once a player committed leaving the door open for other programs come in and give them more attention. You have to remember that this was pre internet, cell phone and email. If you're only getting one phone call a month from Clemson and daily or weekly calls from UGA, who do you think has the edge?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [1894]
TigerPulse: 100%
31
|
Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 21, 2020, 7:50 AM
|
|
Tim Jones. One of my favorite players.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3795]
TigerPulse: 100%
35
|
Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 21, 2020, 8:15 AM
|
|
Tim Jones. One of my favorite players.
When Hatfield was announced as Ford's replacement, I remember shouting at the TV, "We've hired the only coach in the country MORE conservative(offensively) than Danny!"
The story I heard on Hatfield's recruiting in his last year was that the Recruiting Coordinator (I forget his name) had a heart attack and his Dr told him not to travel. Hatfield told him the other assistants would make the in person contacts. Bobby Robinson sent out a survey of the Top 50 area (150mi ?) recruits and when they came back Clemson had not kept in touch.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [31414]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 14878
Joined: 2014
|
fyi...
May 21, 2020, 8:40 AM
|
|
it’s 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
That’s right, it is. I hope you’re over being mad at Hatfield
May 21, 2020, 10:15 AM
|
|
and our administration. Some people here still aren’t, 30 years later. Sad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [31414]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 14878
Joined: 2014
|
point being...
May 21, 2020, 10:21 AM
|
|
better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
you’re welcome
#trollingishard
Message was edited by: theclash®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
You must not have seen multiple posts yesterday mentioning Hatfield
May 21, 2020, 6:57 PM
|
|
and West and our football program in the 90s.
This post wasn’t made out of thin air. But even if it had been, you are free to hit the back button if you don’t like it.
You can even put me on ignore if my posts bother you so much.
#moderntechnology
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [1673]
TigerPulse: 88%
31
|
IRONY...
May 21, 2020, 8:06 PM
[ in reply to point being... ] |
|
You borrowed Lincoln's version of a bible quotation, but the application is incorrect, out of context. Reads as a non sequitur-
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rival Killer [2653]
TigerPulse: 100%
33
|
You can cite recruiting rankings all day, but where he lost
May 21, 2020, 9:58 AM
|
|
out was on the lines.
I was in the weight room in 1990 when guys like CHester McGlockton, Vance Hammond, Levon Kirkland, etc would block out the Sun when they approached.
When I left in 1993, we had Warren Forney and Tim Jones. Yeah, they were bigger than me, but not intimidatingly scary big.
That why in 1993 we could win against crappy teams, but against UNC and FSU we couldnt hang on the LOS. That's basically our problem from then until 2015, to be honest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2266]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
|
Re: You can cite recruiting rankings all day, but where he lost
May 21, 2020, 6:01 PM
|
|
out was on the lines.
I was in the weight room in 1990 when guys like CHester McGlockton, Vance Hammond, Levon Kirkland, etc would block out the Sun when they approached.
When I left in 1993, we had Warren Forney and Tim Jones. Yeah, they were bigger than me, but not intimidatingly scary big.
That why in 1993 we could win against crappy teams, but against UNC and FSU we couldnt hang on the LOS. That's basically our problem from then until 2015, to be honest.
This post is entirely correct ...
Hatfield may have had some decent classes based on star ratings ... but he didn’t meet team needs fully in doing so...
Landing Dexter Mcleon and Patrick Sapp as option QBs might’ve driven up ratings .. but neither finished their careers as QBs...
Landing a 4 star RB with no blockers might look good on paper but doesn’t win football games..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2266]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
|
Re: You can cite recruiting rankings all day, but where he lost
May 21, 2020, 6:01 PM
[ in reply to You can cite recruiting rankings all day, but where he lost ] |
|
out was on the lines.
I was in the weight room in 1990 when guys like CHester McGlockton, Vance Hammond, Levon Kirkland, etc would block out the Sun when they approached.
When I left in 1993, we had Warren Forney and Tim Jones. Yeah, they were bigger than me, but not intimidatingly scary big.
That why in 1993 we could win against crappy teams, but against UNC and FSU we couldnt hang on the LOS. That's basically our problem from then until 2015, to be honest.
This post is entirely correct ...
Hatfield may have had some decent classes based on star ratings ... but he didn’t meet team needs fully in doing so...
Landing Dexter Mcleon and Patrick Sapp as option QBs might’ve driven up ratings .. but neither finished their careers as QBs...
Landing a 4 star RB with no blockers might look good on paper but doesn’t win football games..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [17517]
TigerPulse: 100%
51
Posts: 15422
Joined: 1999
|
Hatfield produced one of my lowest moments as a fan of
May 21, 2020, 11:55 AM
|
|
Clemson football. I was at that 1992 Citrus Bowl. What a disaster.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18629]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 11874
Joined: 2001
|
Ugh. I remember that one. Painful indeed. We could not
May 21, 2020, 5:53 PM
|
|
get out of our own way that day. If I remember correctly there was one series where we had finally stopped them and Buckner punched the QB in the pile. Penalty, first down, and another score.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [17580]
TigerPulse: 92%
51
Posts: 27655
Joined: 2003
|
Oh Good Lord, find a new slant***
May 21, 2020, 4:04 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [20113]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 14317
Joined: 2009
|
Wow. I bet someone like you could do a killer job letting
May 21, 2020, 5:48 PM
|
|
us know how great Brownell is as a basketball coach also.
Keep up the good work, and Go Tigers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
Thanks, I try.***
May 21, 2020, 7:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [7078]
TigerPulse: 100%
41
|
Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 21, 2020, 6:16 PM
|
|
I would like to remind you "Your Honor" that Hatfield was the first coach to lose to Virginia, have you forgotten that??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [49160]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 36216
Joined: 2003
|
No, I haven’t forgotten. I remember it well.
May 21, 2020, 7:05 PM
|
|
Bottom line, UVA improved a lot in the 90s. While we all like to joke about them being the “white meat” of the schedule, the reality is that they improved a lot and were bound to beat us at some point. Given their teams in the mid-late 90s, we were likely to lose to them soon regardless of who our coach was.
If you honestly think Danny wouldn’t have ever lost to UVA if he remained our coach, I have some lovely oceanfront property in Nebraska to sell you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2584]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
|
Re: No, I haven’t forgotten. I remember it well.
May 21, 2020, 11:59 PM
|
|
J.K., you must be boosom buddies with Robinson. Just go back to analyzing basketball. If you can not tell by watching the downward spiral of the football program under Ol' Kenny, stay away from football quessing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [25801]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 18511
Joined: 2000
|
Re: Looking back at Ken Hatfield’s recruiting tells a different story
May 22, 2020, 7:34 AM
|
|
He sure wasn’t no Kirby Smart, I can tell you that much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 51
| visibility 1062
|
|
|
50
