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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I wish there was a way to see the distribution of support for Brownell based
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Jan 31, 2024, 11:33 AM
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on the money that is actually given to the program.
Like if votes per dollar counted. I contribute next to nothing to the basketball program. So my voice wouldn't matter as much as a big-time donor and season ticket holder in this case.
I don't rabidly follow the basketball program anymore (I go to a few cheap seat games every year) and I am kinda meh with the program. I have no urgency to fire Brownell but I'd be ok if we did (assuming we don't do anything in the big dance this year)
But that isn't equal to someone who spends more time and resources ($) on it. How do major donor season ticket holders feel compared to less basketball-rabid alums like me? Is there a difference there in terms of support for Brownell? Or does it cut across evenly, whatever it is.
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CU Guru [1301]
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He has a crowd of friends that are large donors
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Jan 31, 2024, 3:01 PM
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Your hunch is right, thats the main reason he hangs around.
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CU Medallion [65541]
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So, Cronyism is what has kept Brownell here this long? At least that is an
Feb 1, 2024, 9:38 AM
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explanation that could make some cents, or dollars, I guess.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: I wish there was a way to see the distribution of support for Brownell based
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Jan 31, 2024, 4:22 PM
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Only problem is that way of looking at it neglects all the money that is currently on the sidelines. Look at the growth in donations since the transition from Tommy to Dabo. Tommy had deep pocketed loyalists too. A basketball program that consistently made the NCAA tourney, never missed at least the NIT and started hitting new milestones would bring a flood of new money in. The donors that defend mediocre coaches often do so (often unconsciously) because of their comfort with access and perks. A new regime may be less inviting. Anyone giving big money to Clemson basketball obviously hasn’t done it because they care about the trophy case.
And because our previous benchmarks are so low, a new coach has numerous opportunities over an extended time to maintain excitement and build that base of support. An ACC championship, an Elite 8, a Final Four, sweeping Duke and UNC in a season - we should quit acting like this stuff is beyond us and the “big money” now will seem paltry.
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Legend [16158]
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Most of the big $ is football fans and they don't really care...what are you not
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Jan 31, 2024, 4:40 PM
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following?
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Most of the big $ is football fans and they don't really care...what are you not
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Jan 31, 2024, 5:12 PM
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Seriously, a school whose biggest success is in football has big money donors who primarily care about football!!?! I’d say I was shocked but I pointed it out in the very post you replied to. Are you under the impression that the only people who care about sports enough to donate big money would care less or, at best, equally about basketball and are therefore already maxed out? Go take a look at how much more a program like Florida monetizes their basketball program than Clemson does. That’s what’s being left on the table.
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110%er [9193]
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CU Guru [1404]
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Rock Defender [54]
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My F-I-L is a big-time donor.
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Jan 31, 2024, 4:26 PM
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He and my M-I-L are always down there with all the other check-writers on the floor.
And they're not particularly worried about Brownell. They understand Clemson's a football school (they give even more hugely to football), and that basketball's a good way to have fun in the wintertime before the lake heats back up.
My FIL, in particular, believes Neff will have to make a change here in a year or two, but not because donors like him are pushing for it.
"Who would we find?" is his usual take. He likes Brownell the way he likes pimento cheese - not bad, but roast beef is better.
So they go to the games and sometimes do the thing where they fly with the team, and they have a good time and don't really expect huge results.
Hope that helps a little.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Thanks for that perspective.***
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Jan 31, 2024, 4:31 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Which kinda raises an interesting point ...
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Jan 31, 2024, 4:31 PM
[ in reply to My F-I-L is a big-time donor. ] |
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about expectations.
Maybe a lot of people are okay with CUMBB being just okay (rarely good, possibly bad). Donors included.
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Legend [16158]
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That's been my experience***
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Jan 31, 2024, 4:39 PM
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Legend [16921]
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Re: That's been my experience***
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Jan 31, 2024, 5:18 PM
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Brad Brownell has been here 14 seasons. The people buying those seats are clearly quite comfortable with their return on investment. That does not indicate, in any way shape or form, what other people might be willing to spend for those same seats if the program were more successful.
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Legend [16158]
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Then maybe you should be whining about them instead of acting like this is
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Jan 31, 2024, 6:42 PM
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only a 14 year issue
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Then maybe you should be whining about them instead of acting like this is
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Jan 31, 2024, 8:22 PM
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Why would I complain about them? They’re just taking advantage of the system as it exists. The problem is a lack of vision from the athletic department. Perhaps Neff will finally change that trend. Seriously, go look up the booster programs that places like Florida, Ohio State, or even Kentucky. Everything at Clemson ties back to your IPTAY membership level. Yeah, we have some nice new seating options with some supplemental fees. But everything still ties back to your IPTAY level - if you want to buy those seats. At other schools - access to basketball tickets is an entirely separate booster giving category that still has the seat fees and ticket fees. Our Courtside Club / Coliseum Club / Loge seats are a bargain compared to these places. The cheapest seat in the house at Cameron is significanly more expensive than our Courtside Club. The cheapest seat in the house is $24,000 over 3 years versus $25,000 over 5 for our very best seats. That’s on top of the booster annual donation - you have to give $100,000 to get 6 tickets. You can get 6 tickets to Clemson basketball for face value plus a $1700 IPTAY donation. How long do you think that gravy train lasts if they turns out results like we have for the last 14 years?
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Rock Defender [54]
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You hit a certain level
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Jan 31, 2024, 8:48 PM
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and the money doesnt matter anymore.
Those that give a lot generally do it for a variety of reasons (love of the game, love of Clemson, community, service, scholarship) that have little to do with winning or losing, because they know how fickle the game can be.
Plus, if youve ever been courtside for a game, it's just plain fun. TV doesnt pick up the speed at which those kids play, which helps one appreciate how little separates good from great.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: You hit a certain level
Jan 31, 2024, 9:18 PM
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Yes - sitting courtside at a basketball game is a completely different experience than even very good lower level seats. Have had the privilege on a number of occasions. However, I don’t think our top donors are buying a high percentage of the tickets available to them. As of 2022 there were 907 Heisman and Riggs donors (top 2 levels) entitled to purchase 12 basketball tickets. Littlejohn doesn’t even have the capacity to accommodate that if everyone made their request. So, odds are, people giving at significantly lower levels are getting very good seats at Littlejohn.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Not sure what my folks give for their stuff
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Feb 1, 2024, 10:51 AM
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but it's more than a little bit.
You're 100% on point about costs rising with success. Their allocation to football has skyrocketed since the first natty, and is still rising. And about midway through last season they took a step back and asked "well, is it still worth it?"
They decided it is because they're still entirely bought in to Swinney/the program. Not because the team's in the running for a natty, but because the program isn't likely to make them second guess where they're putting their money.
And in that, there's a bit of an argument for Brownell. No scandals, no NCAA slaps. No huge wins, either, sure.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I think my in-laws would
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Jan 31, 2024, 8:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: That's been my experience*** ] |
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happily shell over more dough if the increase followed an ACC title.
Theyre not complacent -- far from it. They donate because both are Clemson grads and they love it, win or lose.
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All-In [25011]
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Who would we find
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Jan 31, 2024, 5:27 PM
[ in reply to My F-I-L is a big-time donor. ] |
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Is a really lazy argument. Like there hasn’t been coaches over the last 14 years who would have loved the Clemson job and done well? There’s plenty of good coaches out there.
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: Who would we find
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Jan 31, 2024, 5:47 PM
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Of course there are and Clemson is content with what we have. Neff raved about the attendance last year. We just accept mediocrity and always have. I’m sure Josh Pastner, Frank Martin & Rick Pitino would all love to be coaching at Clemson right now. Come on Neff! Make something happen.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Who would we find
Jan 31, 2024, 8:31 PM
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You know who would love to be coaching at Clemson right now? Gregg Marshall. I don’t know why so many act like we should be above that. Someone is going to give him his shot. Wichita State was never able to prove cause and is still paying him $7.75 million in buyout. Wichita State threw a 10 year anniversary party for their Final Four team and all the players that he supposedly abused lauded him. I think there are plenty of great coaches. But if the concern is “who will come to Clemson?” there is an exceptional coach who would be a sure thing. He is one of the greatest talent developers ever.
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Legend [16158]
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Greg Marshall? Really? He's a Gamecock fan for God's sake***
Feb 1, 2024, 12:11 AM
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Greg Marshall? Really? He's a Gamecock fan for God's sake***
Feb 1, 2024, 5:59 AM
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Did you have strong feelings against Monte Lee or Brad Scott coming here? Thats such a silly take. I’m not even trying to argue that he’s the best coach we could get. But for anyone that says “who could we get?” - that’s a guy who we could get who would probably be the best coach we have ever had instantly. Who cares who he rooted for as a kid.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: Greg Marshall? Really? He's a Gamecock fan for God's sake***
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Feb 1, 2024, 9:33 AM
[ in reply to Greg Marshall? Really? He's a Gamecock fan for God's sake*** ] |
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Marshall is also a well-known class A jerk. My sister dated him briefly. Penny Hardaway would be my first choice. Unfortunately, I think Brownell will do just enough to keep his job. I expect no NCAA tourney invite and an early home upset exit from the NIT.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Maybe.
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Jan 31, 2024, 8:59 PM
[ in reply to Who would we find ] |
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But the old man has been a CUMBB booster for a looooong time and has seen alot of coaches come through.
My opinion is Brownell's tenure is due in part to football's succcess. Had they not won so much, I believe he'd have faced more scrutiny. Just a gut feeling.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: Maybe.
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Feb 1, 2024, 9:58 AM
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Your gut feeling is correct. Cliff Ellis got the same pass due to Danny Ford.
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: My F-I-L is a big-time donor.
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Jan 31, 2024, 5:55 PM
[ in reply to My F-I-L is a big-time donor. ] |
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Thank you. Only solidifies what I already thought.
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CU Medallion [65541]
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Hey, ask your F-I-L what he thought when we "got" Brad Brownell to begin with.
Feb 1, 2024, 9:45 AM
[ in reply to My F-I-L is a big-time donor. ] |
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I remember exactly what I thought. It was, "Wright STATE? We couldn't do any better than a coach from WRIGHT STATE?" I thought it was a "Swing and a MISS" hire back then, and have seen very little over these 14 years to disabuse me of that notion. But, I was on the bandwagon until about three years ago, when we slipped all the way back to one game over 500. Followed inevitably by the Tommy Bowden "Save my Job" one good year.
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Rock Defender [54]
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He thought what he still thinks
Feb 1, 2024, 10:44 AM
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"We get who we can get, and we get who we got."
Also, winning and losing doesn't happen in a vacuum. And I do not mean that in a patronizing way.
If we're willing to admit Swinney is much, much more than a football HC, than it's likely true of any HC of any sport, including Brownell.
Of course, hard to get away with comparisons between Swinney and Brownell, given Swinney's success.
But in saying that, I have to acknowledge the dude over at Furman. He is highly talented, and is building a team that is not dependent on the portal.
If I was the CUAD and wanted to make a change, that guy'd be my first call. Absolutely.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: My F-I-L is a big-time donor.
Feb 1, 2024, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to My F-I-L is a big-time donor. ] |
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Fans not caring about or expecting huge results are a huge part of the problem. No pressure on the Administration to act.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I've been married for 20+ years
Feb 1, 2024, 10:56 AM
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and have gotten to know very well what the donors in the family are thinking about regarding CU athletics.
And it isn't winning, per se. Yes, the natty's are incredible for them and they love seeing the Tigers win everything, all the time.
But, they just love Clemson and give generously out of that love.
It's so nuanced, all of it. Media oversimplifies what it is to hire/fire a HC, or to build a staff and a program the right way and still win big.
I said in another thread if Neff actually decides to make a change, I'd hope he'd give the dude over at Furman a look. He's talented and is doing something special there. Loves GVL, is from GVL, and might jump at the chance to lead an ACC team.
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110%er [8539]
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Re: I wish there was a way to see the distribution of support for Brownell based
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Jan 31, 2024, 4:30 PM
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Because Clemson is a public institution, you can look for, and most likely find, the yearly 990 IRS reports. The reports are not secrets, you just have to know someone that knows where to find them.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Legend [16158]
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I would assume that's how the administration sees it and I would assume that's
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Jan 31, 2024, 4:37 PM
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why he has been retained by the two subsequent ADs who inherited him
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All-In [25393]
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One of our friends, Come_and_take_it, has pretty well
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Feb 1, 2024, 5:57 AM
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summed up my longtime take.
Our BOT and admin aren't going to take any kind of drastic steps that might adversely affect our football program. They, so far, have felt safe with Coach B, as he has run a clean program, winning enough to satisfy most BB fans. Now, they may decide to step into the fire by replacing Coach, but I believe Coach Brownell has developed a loyal amount of support due mainly to his longevity, winning enough for those supporters who never expect us to be a North Carolina nor Duke.
I felt like we should have taken a drastic step of support by building a sparkling new, state-of-the-art facility, rather than remodeling LJ. We should have pulled out all the stops to help Coach B and his staff with recruiting, and our admin along with our student leadership should have been creative to fill seats. I know winning is the key, but the Clemson facility sitting right on campus not being filled for games is inexcuseable...fan support at home is a critical part of success.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: One of our friends, Come_and_take_it, has pretty well
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Feb 1, 2024, 6:37 AM
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I’ve done some rooting around since the start of this thread. I’m not sure there is a whole lot of reason to be afraid of the impact on the big money football donors. I can’t find a number on how many season tickets we actually sold in basketball. But our lowest announced attendance game is in the 5000s. That includes every ticket sold regardless of who actually showed up. After student and single game tickets (which are still available to all remaining ACC games) that leaves a hard cap on total possible season ticket sales somewhere below 5000. Heisman and Riggs donors alone are entitled to over 10,000 basketball season tickets per IPTAY benefits. Fike, McFadden, and Jersey donors are entitled to 18,000 season tickets. The IPTAY giving level alone entitles donors to 28,000 tickets. So for IPTAY levela and up, the donors levels offer members the benefit (subject to availability) of purchasing 56,000 tickets to a facility that holds only 9000. Yet we’re only actually selling them somewhere less than 5000 tickets. Less than 10% of the ticket inventory being offered as season tickets to IPTAY members at the $3500 level and up are being consumed.
From a supply demand standpoint it suggests that basketball is overpriced. But these tickets are a drop in the bucket to what some of these people are spending. So it also suggests they just don’t want them - regardless of price. And that’s a quality issue. And that represents a tremendous growth opportunity. If were to become successful at basketball already existing top IPTAY donors are going to quickly displace long time basketball supporters - with no new monetization.
I’d love to see a breakdown by IPTAY level of who is buying what at Littlejohn in terms of season tickets.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I agree. It's not about the money.
Feb 1, 2024, 11:01 AM
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Especially during football season, when home games are like a dern family reunion. Totally worth the investment.
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Legend [16733]
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Re: I wish there was a way to see the distribution of support for Brownell based
Feb 1, 2024, 6:49 AM
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I give to IPTAY and let them distribute money as they see fit. I don't recall every seeing an option to funnel money to a particular sport.
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Replies: 38
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