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Orange Blooded [4012]
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Mental health and mass shootings
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Mar 29, 2023, 7:53 AM
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I was talking with an old wise man about the shooting.
He said you know what the problem is? It’s that we don’t institutionalize crazy people anymore. Today it’s become PC that people that are mentally I’ll can still live amongst general society and that institutionalization is cruel and unusual punishment. We don’t accurately assign the burden to society. And we falsely blame it all on guns and not the people that are pulling the trigger.
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CU Medallion [53797]
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Like a friend said to me yesterday...if you went to a doctor
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:04 AM
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and told him you identified as a one armed bandit...and you asked him to cut off your right arm...the doctor would call for the psychiatrist.
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Heisman Winner [111640]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:09 AM
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yes, we leave mental health services to law enforcement, something they are completely untrained for, If you want to live in a healthy society, it costs money.
And has nothing to do with PC, we just don't want to pay for it, same goes for homelessness, we could end it tomorrow..
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CU Guru [1553]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:39 AM
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Yes. And, unfortunately, homelessness and mental health are tightly entwined. I'd bet 90% of the homeless folks that I run into in downtown Columbia are in that situation because they can't function in society because of mental issues. The old saying of "go get a job" just isn't in the cards for most of these people.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
Mar 29, 2023, 9:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Mental health and mass shootings ] |
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yes, we leave mental health services to law enforcement, something they are completely untrained for, If you want to live in a healthy society, it costs money.
And has nothing to do with PC, we just don't want to pay for it, same goes for homelessness, we could end it tomorrow..
100%.
We shouldn't send cops in where we should send in mental health (or social service) professionals.
And I don't think we necessarily need to institutionalize more people, but we do need to be able to provide better access to mental health professionals.
We're happy to militarize the police to address awful situations, rather than acting in ways to prevent the awful situations./.
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Orange Blooded [4012]
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Sorry! Meant to put this on the politics board!***
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:14 AM
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Legend [17294]
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So America has more crazy people than other western countries?
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:17 AM
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Or poorer mental health services. Could be right?
If that’s the premise, then what are the steps to fix it? Let’s get it done.
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Heisman Winner [111640]
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Re: So America has more crazy people than other western countries?
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:25 AM
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all of our free mental health institutions shut down decades ago due to lack of funding, and most had a bad reputation for abuse and poor outcomes. It is a shame, because we have come a long way wince the 1970s when it comes to understanding and treating mental disorders. As it stands, they have a better chance of getting mental health services in prison than they do in a free society, and that is generally how it goes. It is a big reason why we lock up more people than china.
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Legend [17294]
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Remember the old Venn diagrams? I’m a simple guy …
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Mar 29, 2023, 9:07 AM
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There’s this big “Gun circle” and a big “Crazy MFer circle”. Seems both circles are getting bigger. The problem called mass shootings occurs when the circles overlap. For best visual effect, imagine that area crosshatched…. LOL my spell check wanted to substitute “crosshair” for crosshatch which in this case works equally well.
Now there’s three ways to reduce the “crosshaired” area where the circles overlap. Reduce the size of one or both circles. Guns and Crazy MFers ain’t going away anytime soon. Or put something in between the circles to make it harder for the circles to overlap. Realistically this would entail tactics like improved access to mental health services, universal background checks, red flag laws, age limits and not getting too carried away with open carry. There’s a pun.
These tactics at best are like screens that “may” reduce the statistical populations in the overlapping area. Might be worth a try because reducing the overlapping population might also reduce the “victim of gun violence” population _ which seems like a noble objective.
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CU Guru [1300]
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And I thought had seen some crazy #### on here in my days
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:20 AM
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So now the problem is that we closed down Bull Street
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Orange Blooded [4012]
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Re: And I thought had seen some crazy #### on here in my days
Mar 29, 2023, 8:39 AM
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If you saw data that showed the mental institutionalization rate in the us declining and the rate of murders and gun violence increasing could you be persuaded?
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Oculus Spirit [97736]
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Head Coach [752]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings***
Mar 29, 2023, 8:26 AM
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Orange Blooded [3977]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:26 AM
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That's because this country has normalized being loony now. There's loony toons all over the place. This could just as easy be considered a hate crime too. But the #1 issue in all these cases is the people around the "loon" not picking up the signs or doing anything about it until its to late.
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CU Guru [1432]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM
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Except they also have mental health problems in other countries and deal with them in similar fashion.
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CU Guru [1432]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:32 AM
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Secondly - if you think that "mental health" is the root cause here and you'd like the killings to stop. You must support government funded programs to help rehabilitate the "crazies", right?
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:50 AM
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I don’t support the government to fix any issues. What have they fixed? Infrastructure in this nation is declining, medical and pharmaceutical cost are outrageous. GOVT ran VA medical care is a joke. SS is nothing but let’s raise the debt ceiling to continue to be able to pay, seeing we are 31 trillion in the hole. We can’t defend our borders and we currently produce very little in this nation. Most everything in your homes is from China, which right now would be considered our biggest enemy. If we are waiting on the government to fix anything we are in serious trouble.
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Oculus Spirit [77011]
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Amen.***
Mar 29, 2023, 9:34 AM
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
Mar 29, 2023, 10:28 AM
[ in reply to Re: Mental health and mass shootings ] |
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How capable is the private sector at providing mental health care for our population? About the same as providing health care for the over 65 crowd? Reality says that it's impossible for the free market to make a profit in the area of mental heath. So how does this get done without government programs?
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
Mar 29, 2023, 11:29 AM
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What other govt programs do you suggest? We had one in place years ago and it failed. What confidence do you have in the government to fix this issue?
What are we talking about here? Are we talking about people with real mental illness or are we lumping crazy people that just hate the world in this category as well?
Wish our govt was more inept but they have proven time and time again that they make problems worse.
Seen welfare lately? Hey let’s build housing for those in need. Go to your local housing projects and get back to me on how that is working out. Our system is broke and to keep looking at the government is a losing proposition. I hate it and wish is was not true but I cannot see anything that they have involved themselves in as getting better. Education should have been left to the state but Carter wanted to federalize it and here we are. Talk to people in education they can tell you how it’s going. It’s pretty depressing really.
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
Mar 29, 2023, 11:49 AM
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As I said, the private sector can't fix this. It's either government run or keep it like it is.
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Orange Blooded [4012]
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Is it true that other countries violent crime rate has decreased
Mar 29, 2023, 9:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: Mental health and mass shootings ] |
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Since deinstitutionalization?
I will grant you that mass shootings occur at a higher incident rate in the US.
But the root cause isn’t the gun. Its the people that pull the trigger.
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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Re: Is it true that other countries violent crime rate has decreased
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Mar 29, 2023, 10:30 AM
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What are the factors, other than access to guns, that differentiate us from all the other countries that have far fewer rates of mass shootings?
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Orange Blooded [4012]
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A lot of differences
Mar 29, 2023, 1:18 PM
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Name a country that has the population size, ethnic diversity, civil liberties, and income per capita. Also, our public school system is a joke compared to other countries. Name another country that is as materialistic as the US.
But, a car plowing through a Christmas market in Germany is just as evil as a school shooting in my book. And taking away guns, cars, and knives isn’t going to change that evil.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:42 AM
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While I do agree at the core, meaning that we aren't adequately treating mental health issues (and as a teacher I see this daily with kids who, for various reasons shouldn't be in a regular classroom but are due to "reasons"), I don't know if the "institution" as we have seen it is the way to go. I'm not 100% sure what the answer is. I think it's a combination of better treatment options, reduced cost for treatment, reduced stigma on those who have things going on, maybe other steps. I'm not sure it's a one-or-the-other thing, but some jambalaya of all of them together.
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CU Guru [1895]
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Is it possible?
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:48 AM
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Is it possible that we reclaim the category of "evil" into our explanations and vocabulary?
When we chalk everything up to mental health, we're dangerously close to removing all culpability whatsoever.
Or have we progressed beyond good and evil? Asking for a friend.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Is it possible?
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Mar 29, 2023, 8:53 AM
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Agreed. This is a lot deeper than more government intervention. We have more laws on the books than previous generations and society as a whole is worse off.
Wife is a first grade teacher and the differences in the kids she teaches vs 10 years ago is totally different. These kids have no respect and know that discipline is only talked about. Nothing ever happens. Starts at home and some of these kids at the end of the day with their home life, if being truthful, do not have a chance.
Message was edited by: rhpltmeg®
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Commissioner [934]
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Why does this happen only in America
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Mar 29, 2023, 9:01 AM
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Do we have more crazy people than everywhere else? Are we just more evil than everywhere else? Or maybe there’s something else unique about America??
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Why does this happen only in America
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Mar 29, 2023, 9:09 AM
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That’s a loaded question and something I would rather sit down and talk about over a cup of coffee! 👍
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Orange Blooded [2860]
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Re: Why does this happen only in America
Mar 29, 2023, 9:38 AM
[ in reply to Why does this happen only in America ] |
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It’s been a long slow process, but about 5 decades ago America went to war against the family. Most every out of control issue today has it’s roots (atleast to an extent) in the destruction of a healthy family structure.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Why does this happen only in America
Mar 29, 2023, 9:47 AM
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It’s been a long slow process, but about 5 decades ago America went to war against the family. Most every out of control issue today has it’s roots (atleast to an extent) in the destruction of a healthy family structure.
There is no "war against the family." Good grief.
But I will conveniently borrow your time line. 50 years ago, as fewer and fewer people were hunting, gun manufacturers (via the NRA) changed their emphasis from safety training to marketing and lobbying, which carried with it an emphasis on "personal safety," loosening restrictions, and scaring people into buying more guns. It succeeded, wildly.
As I read this morning 1.5 guns for every 'Murican. That's #1 in the world (USA! USA!) with #2 being Yemen (I believe a third as many). 1 in 20 of us also possess AR style weapons.
I'm not blaming the guns. But I am saying that it is a whole lot easier now for an evil person, a mentally ill person, a child, or an angry person without impulse control to get a hold of a gun in their worst possible moment.
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110%er [9109]
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Correct and incorrect
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Mar 29, 2023, 9:27 AM
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We do institutionalize, but we don't have enough facilities to put them all, so many have to be turned out. I've known several families with children who have severe mental issues and they languish for weeks or months waiting for a place to go and a bed/room to open up.
Something has changed in our world. I don't know if it's overstimulation, over-medication, social media, chemicals in foods, environmental factors, or any or all of the above, but there is far more emotional distress than I think ever before, especially among the young people. It's truly tragic and sad.
It's far from a cure-all, because there are those things that are chemical and must be treated medically, but this world and this country need Jesus badly. We're telling kids that they can "self-identify" and that doesn't bring any contentment because it's arbitrary and can change as quickly as it came about. We lean on approval from social media, but we know now all that works out. Our society, and especially our youth, have no foundation, and we wonder why they're getting washed away by the tides. Most people can only keep themselves afloat for a short time before they drown, but that's what's happening. The answer is out there, but it's not what people want to hear, so they keep searching, and the more they search, the more they realize that they're not finding it, and it becomes a vicious circle.
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Orange Blooded [2987]
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Re: Mental health and mass shootings
Mar 29, 2023, 10:22 AM
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Kids are either not punished at all or definitely not with corporal punishment anymore. Parents have gone as far as to blame the school systems for bad kids acting out because the school didn't reprimand the kids like they used to totally taking zero responsibility for childs behavior (we used to get paddled even in the 80's). Used to be that if you acted out as a kid the school would reprimand you and it was worse when you got home and would get spanked, (in other words it was going to hurt). This taught you to respect authority, taught you that getting out of line was going to hurt. Kids learned at a young age that you had to respect other people and others property.
Kids on average had a lot more easy access to guns and weapons when I was growing up. Kids were taught gun safety, how to use a gun properly, how to clean guns and how to respect guns. But it wasn't uncommon to go to a buddies house and we could walk into a den or the man's space and all the father's guns were on display in a glass gun cabinet as a piece of furniture and proud talking point. At 8-10yrs old we could reach in amd look at any gun easily as long as we wiped it down before putting back. That is a major No-No now!
So I don't feel like I should be old enough to see such change as I was in college in late 80s and 90s but corporal punishment isnt just a spanking but its considered child abuse. The kids that constantly got into trouble and were harder to control were mandated to attend some military or correctional school to put the kids in an environment to teach respect and how to act in society. I knew a few guys that had to go to correctional military school and they came out 1-2 yrs later as completely changed kids that respected authority were behaved in high school.
Then there were probably 2 different girls that were sent to psyche wards. I think one had tried suicide and one was actually in a home life that was an impossible life of molestation by some family member or members.
But as someone mentioned, it appears the funding for such institutions has disappeared because you don't see or hear of pre-teen or teenager kids being placed educational/medical institutions that are not affiliated with prison systems. You either go to juvie prison or you get home arrest often with ankle bracelet or a parole agent to babysit but nothing there has done anything to correct the mental or physical actions of a teen.
I am all for corrective punishment to include spanking a young kid acting out (within reason of course, along with the types of restrictions), corrective schools, and the family judicial system being trained when a mental health physician and institution is correct or if military school is correct, especially if this makes our schools safer and a better learning environment.
The removal of weapons from society is an absolute joke. Bad people will find guns if they want them bad enough. Or they walk in with machetes, kill a few then set the entire place on fire. Guns are not the issue! The neglect of young people that need some help is the larger problem.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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True, but this is a very complex problem involving multiple
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Mar 29, 2023, 11:10 AM
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factors, and any significant solution won't be nearly as simple as banning assault rifles or making it harder to get guns, or treating/institutionalizing the truly mentally ill people, or any of that. While all of those may be legitimate factors and part of any solution, I think it goes even deeper than that. Something fundamental has happened to our culture, and our society, that is causing, or at least allowing more and more people to feel so detached and build up so much anger that their only solution is to lash out and commit mass murder.
"Look a me everybody! I am so miserable, I am going to put on camo, dress up to look real cool and real tough, get some really cool guns, and slaughter as many children and innocent people as I can! That's how much my life sucks, and I want everybody to know it!"
That's somebody making a statement. More than anything else, they want the whole world to know how much pain they are in, and they want it to stop.
What is different? It hasn't always been this bad. Is it the easy access to guns? Is it the breakdown of the family? Is it a failure to recognize and properly treat mental illness? How about drugs, both prescription and street drugs, and addiction in general? How much of a factor is social media? Is it the glorification of and desensitization to violence through media and entertainment? Is it a general decline in morality and maybe even the decreased role of religion and other traditonal institutions and values? Is it all of that?
One thing is for sure; politicians will twist it all to their advantage and getting meaningful solutions will difficult, even IF the real causes can be identified and agreed upon. Sadly, that's the process we have to go through, and it's got to start somewhere. At some point, we've got to decide we've had enough, take the political hats off, and make up our minds to fix it.
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