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Lot o points [161110]
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Mangey ponderance for youse guys
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Jul 10, 2024, 9:33 AM
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Lemme start by saying this isn’t a tired whine about NIL, or the portal, or the state of football, etc. I was just thinking about this from a slightly different angle.
Anyone who has been in sales for any length of time has probably experienced a moment where their employer put them in a competitive disadvantage to the competition. Maybe it was poor quality, uncompetitive pricing, or just the marketing dweebs totally screwing up a new product launch…..whatever it was you as the salesperson, no matter how well you did your job, were fighting with one or both hands tied behind your back. I’ve been there and it’s one of the most frustrating things you can experience in your professional life, because it’s going to make it harder to perform your job well, and at EOM/EOQ quota time or at the annual performance review, they are going to only be looking at you.
I’m wondering if this translates into our athletic situation. I was specifically thinking about Matt Luke, but there are others you can include. I think the guy is probably one of the best at what he does and 10 years ago he would probably be bringing us OL recruits that would make tOSU and Bama weep. But now I see him doing all the right things, getting in early with some impressive recruits, and ultimately losing out because our program doesn’t have and/or won’t use the tools necessary to close the deal. I’m guessing this could bleed over also into wanting to use the portal some but knowing it’s an uphill battle with Dabo and even if he says “go for it” we probably won’t have the bag of cash needed to land that fish.
Again, not even debating portal good/bad, NIL good/bad, etc. Just wondering out loud if the constraints of coaching at CU (either financial realities or self-imposed constraints) can or will lead to job satisfaction issues for top assistants, even if they come into it with eyes wide open, or are we paying them so much that they don’t care and my analogy sucks?
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Oculus Spirit [89138]
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Our wurst lineman is All-American so he cain't be to mad!***
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Jul 10, 2024, 9:37 AM
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All-TigerNet [12649]
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does not suck
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Jul 10, 2024, 9:43 AM
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I too feel like dear old Clemson is bringing knives to gun fights.
Maybe just maybe, Dabo realizes that our NIL game isn't on par with other top flight programs, so we don't get into bidding wars with portal kids, and are losing out on HS prospects (the latter recently is starting to concern me, we've had a number of whiffs with the last few recruit's decisions)
When you don't have a humango alumni base, oil fields on campus, or alumni like sam walton or phil knight, guess you may be at a disadvantage currently
I'm just hoping we can hold on to relevance until this NIL thing gets reigned in; only way I see that happening is we go with SEC or Big 10 and those conferences start to regulate it better, or the super conference split from the NCAA that regulates it better.
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CU Medallion [57686]
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100%. I do not like the new college football but if you're in the game
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Jul 10, 2024, 9:43 AM
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you have to play by the rules of the game.
So we are basically handicapping ourselves with our current policies. People forget many of the top kids are now being paid at the high school level. They're not going to give up money that could help them and their families if it is available. Or maybe even get paid less than they were in high school. Wonder what places like IMG are doing now?
So we will be left with high school 3 stars as our top recruits and "Boy Scouts" who come from great families and agree with Dabo's vision. And THEN somehow coach them up enough to play against NIL-paid, portal-recruited 23-year-olds.
Competitive disadvantage.
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All-TigerNet [11729]
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I don't think we can compete in the current landscape...
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Jul 10, 2024, 9:46 AM
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Especially in the ACC.
We're tens of millions behind in conference revenue every year. We're a much smaller school and alumni base than UGA, Texas, Bama, tOSU, etc. So fundraising is even more constrained. Then you add in a head coach who refuses to adjust to the times and I can't see Clemson being a top tier program again.
I realize buying teams doesn't guarantee anything (LOL Texas A&M) but it doesn't hurt. We can still be a good program, win the ACC, and make some playoffs since it's 12 teams, but I just don't see us getting back to elite.
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All-TigerNet [12649]
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kinda like nascar
Jul 10, 2024, 9:49 AM
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you can have best crew and support staff money can buy, but still not win
but you ain't gonna win anything with a stock car off the local dealer lot
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Oculus Spirit [83152]
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Are you talking about our "nationwide" coaching searches
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Jul 10, 2024, 9:51 AM
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that always seem to start and end in Seneca?
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All-TigerNet [12649]
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Re: Are you talking about our "nationwide" coaching searches
Jul 10, 2024, 10:03 AM
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that maybe, but mainly I'd rather have a team of 4 and 5 *s vs 3 and 4.
every once and awhile you can coach up a 3 star to 5 star performance, but not across 22 starting positions
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Hall of Famer [23706]
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I respectfully disagree
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:12 AM
[ in reply to I don't think we can compete in the current landscape... ] |
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we've had the defense to do it the last 3 years. is it BV level? no. but could we compete? absolutely.
offense needs:
average OL.
1 or 2 1st / 2nd round skill players.
B+ or higher QB.
that recipe still has not changed in CFB, and you can do that with the resources we have and a solid coaching staff (which I'm more excited about now than I have been in the last 6 years)
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All-TigerNet [11729]
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Re: I respectfully disagree
Jul 10, 2024, 2:50 PM
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We definitely had the D to do it.
But every year money is becoming a bigger and bigger player. Phil Knight just gave Oregon unlimited NIL money. Clemson lacks a super donor anywhere near that level.
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Oculus Spirit [79958]
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Over/under 5 years before Dabo retires if NIL status quo remains?
Jul 10, 2024, 10:06 AM
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Maybe over, but probably not by much. Dabo leaves before he's forced to play this game IMO.
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Hall of Famer [23706]
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considering I'm in the middle of a near existential crisis regarding
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:08 AM
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Maybe it was poor quality, uncompetitive pricing, or just the marketingengineering dweebs totally screwing up a new product launch…..whatever it was you as the salesperson, no matter how well you did your job, were fighting with one or both hands tied behind your back.
and not paying me....
bro why you gotta do this this mawn?
but back to your actual topic....counterpoint: I find it very hard to believe that Matt Luke didn't know this coming in. Perhaps that was even his allure? Everyone knows Dabo's and Clemson's stance in the pecking order of the new college football landscape. If this was news to Luke, et al, then shame on them and they're not as smart as I thought they were.
He had to have left UGA for a reason. I haven't read any great information on what that actually was, other than spending more time w/ family. So if that reason cited was actually the reason, in that comes some expectations from his side that it's not going to be as cut throat as those other programs you mentioned, and will give him the lee-way to do it "old school".
Idk, just a thought / counterpoint like I said.
Ultimately my position is he, Riley, Pork Chop, Reed, etc. all knew/know the framework and are bought in or else they wouldn't have taken the job. If not, Dabo flat out lied to them in the hiring process and they'd be gone.
edit: forgot to close my bold tag
Message was edited by: dawghater23®
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Lot o points [161110]
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I hear you, and I tried to reference that
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:42 AM
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With “even with eyes wide open”. I’m think it could be one of those things that you think will be NBD until it’s caused you to bang your head on the desk for the thousandth time.
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Hall of Famer [24920]
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Re: considering I'm in the middle of a near existential crisis regarding
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:58 AM
[ in reply to considering I'm in the middle of a near existential crisis regarding ] |
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Yes, you have to figure that the WR coach at TCU knows more about what is involved in working for Dabo than all message boards combined, or can find out. This type of question - which is a great one - can be difficult to discuss, because the topic shifts between "can Clemson get to the final four in this landscape" and "are we willing to live by certain standards while the landscape sifts out to where ever it is headed". My personal opinion is "yes" and "hard yes". Other people feel differently, but often the two discussions seem to overlap.
I watched the 2017 SC game when it was posted on the front page. Ha. I remember wishing we had a better QB, mostly because Kelly Bryant wasnt Watson. In that game Bryant made some of the bad throws that frustrated everybody. He was not all that accurate. But man, he knew what was happening on the field, and he could get an offense moving. Having Renfrow to throw to helped, but still. He could make things happen. Didn't get hurried or flustered.
Rambling. Nothing new in any of that. Just reminding myself that I forget we are in a better place than any program, including Clemson, can expect to be. GT has four national championships and two trophies named after coaches. Another GT fan and I were discussing this, and his view is that GT didn't fall because the landscape passed them by, but because they stopped, for a while, believing in who they are. You would have a better take on that than I could.
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All-In [49574]
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I'm with you...
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Jul 10, 2024, 1:27 PM
[ in reply to considering I'm in the middle of a near existential crisis regarding ] |
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It was my understanding that Matt Luke kind of would only return to coaching if he could come here. And given Jeff Scott's statements about being run out of the football building if Dabo knew your kid had a game, this kind of family, non-cutthroat atmosphere probably appeals to some pretty good football coaches.
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Heisman Winner [107819]
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I get your sentiment, but we upgraded to Luke from Austin
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:15 AM
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which SHOULD be a night and day difference on the field. THEN we should be able to translate that some to the recruiting.
Yeah, we are going to miss out on the players chasing a big payday, but haven't we always? (wink wink)
There are still GREAT players out there that Clemson can get.
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Lot o points [161110]
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We ended up outside the top 4 with a five star who is a lifelong
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:45 AM
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Clemson fan, had great relationships with the staff, and claimed he didn’t care about money. That’s as sweet a spot as Luke can be in and it still didn’t matter when the other schools slid the napkin across the table to him with a number written on it. Luke did all he could, even recruiting seemingly a perfect prospect, and it didn’t matter.
At a minimum it would seem to imply that we are chasing our tail pursuing 5 star linemen, so that’s not nothing.
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Legend [18114]
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I dont understand how an accomplished man of your stature .
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:16 AM
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Can’t remedy any financial disadvantage that Clemson has in NIL funding. Step up to the plate man!
Seriously a player can only play the cards they are dealt. Better cards always win when they are laid down. When the cards are cold, getting up from the table is sometimes the best option. There’s only so much bluffing a player can do.
Maybe the analogy works _ maybe not.
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Team Captain [473]
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Re: Mangey ponderance for youse guys
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:39 AM
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Based on your analogy, are we hearing positions coaches saying anything along the lines of "I'm doing the best I can with what I have to work with"? Probably won't. At least while they're still employed by CU. If your analogy holds true, there will be an exodus of coaches looking to go elsewhere along with all the transfer athletes.
Now more than I ever have been, I am All-in. I'd love to see us win whole the dang thing if for nothing else, to shut down all the naysayers.
Until I see and hear former assistant coaches succeeding elsewhere under the "new rules", I'll stick with Dabo.
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Hall of Famer [23706]
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dude
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:03 AM
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if Dabo messes around and wins the wholedamn thing again....
OMG could you imagine?
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Lot o points [161110]
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I can imagine.
Jul 10, 2024, 11:14 AM
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$10000 will be the base IPTAY level, errybody getting reseated, skyscrapers downtown will block the sun, and tuition will be $125k a year.
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All-TigerNet [11886]
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Anybody that is coaching at a P5 level is gonna be eyes wide open
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:44 AM
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about a job working for Dabo. They’ll know ClemsonNIL pays well, but not out there buying the 7 figure players in bidding wars kinda crap. They’ll know all about Dabo/Clemson culture and want to either see it up close, see how genuine it is or it will be a disqualifier for them. Dabo pays his people pretty good, so that should be a positive. Dabo doesn’t seem to have a turnover problem which is a plus for any org.
Fora guy like Luke, who’s been around the world a few times,in and out of the game, prolly the perfect situation. He won’t be fazed by missing out on some elite players, been there done that in the SEC. Job is some stability in a time of upheaval while the whole NIL/conference swap/tv deal crap settles out. I’d say the big thing is he knew/knows that the kids he’s coaching want to be there. That they buy in to what he and Dabo are doing. Opposite from what Napier is experiencing at UF where he had players not giving 100 last year, not caring about the outcome of the game because they’re “getting paid”.
Luke knows the competitive advantages/disadvantages of being at UGA and at places like Ole Miss, guarantee he can honestly assess them at Clemson. He’s cool with it.
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All-In [32954]
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Re: Mangey ponderance for youse guys
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:47 AM
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Dabo and staff seem to recruit well enough without a big NIL budget that we should be consistently in the playoff and contending, the problem since 2021 is that we haven’t had a QB. Two 5* misses in a row is pretty much the only reason we’ve dropped off in quality.
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Lot o points [161110]
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I cant fault your logic,
Jul 10, 2024, 10:50 AM
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But it sounds like you’re letting Tyler Grisham and our recently consistently underwhelming WR room off the hook there.
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Oculus Spirit [89138]
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Re: I cant fault your logic,
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:53 AM
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Lot o points [161110]
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Are you arguing against me or helping me make my point?***
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Jul 10, 2024, 10:57 AM
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All-In [32954]
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Re: I cant fault your logic,
Jul 10, 2024, 11:29 AM
[ in reply to I cant fault your logic, ] |
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We had plenty of WR misses too, but I think that can be made up for with even above avg QB play, which we decidedly have not been blessed with as of late.
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All-In [30056]
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The only silver lining that may exist in this paradigm is that a) these coaches
Jul 10, 2024, 11:01 AM
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know what they're getting into and come to Clemson because that's how we do it (I thought I heard that's why Luke came out of retirement, and it was only for Clemson/Dabo?); and b) Dabo knows the score and isn't holding this guys accountable for the position they're in.
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Lot o points [161110]
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I think the latter point could be big
Jul 10, 2024, 11:12 AM
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If I’m comparing a job where I’m at $200k at 100% of quota with a job where I’m at $200k at 40% of quota and a boss who doesn’t ride me for that number because he knows the product has competitive disadvantages, I know which one of those two is less stress on my life.
The question become whether that dynamic remains when the guy at the top feels heat or whether you become sacrificial raw meat to appease the shareholders.
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110%er [5084]
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Re: Mangey ponderance for youse guys
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:08 AM
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Leaving the NIL/portal issue to the side we are still recruiting well and are in line with where we've been historically under Dabo. The reality is that on offense, whether it's scheme or just getting unlucky with some of our recruits, we've been subpar since TL left. That's gonna leave a stink on any potential recruits on that side of the ball. You go back to Dabos early years and we weren't recruiting top 5 classes but we certainly were hanging 40 a game on most folks. Why that now suddenly seems almost impossible when we are supposedly bringing in players that are as highly ranked, or better, as back then is the real question and I'm not sure it's NIL or portal related. If Cade takes a big step forward this season and we do start to look like the Clemson of old on offense then I think we will be back on the right path.
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Lot o points [161110]
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Well thought and argued, and I cant disagree.
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:18 AM
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With that said, I’m not happy about it, but Cade ain’t it. Take any hopes you have that hinge on him doing well and put them in a glass jar with a tight lid and a cotton ball soaked in ether.
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Hall of Famer [23706]
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also, don't forget we lost one MAJOR ingredient....
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:49 AM
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ostarine
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Lot o points [161110]
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I miss Boulware too.***
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:53 AM
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Hall of Famer [24920]
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Re: Well thought and argued, and I cant disagree.
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Jul 10, 2024, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to Well thought and argued, and I cant disagree. ] |
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You are right more often than not on these calls, and I can't disagree with that one. However, I do have a proposed defensible reason for such hope for Cade. With Kelly Bryant and Ooey, we maintained hope by overlooking the physical limitations: Kelly scatter armed, Ooey slow. Another year wasn't going to solve that.
But with Cade, physical ability is not the problem. Forgetting the argument that he hasn't had nearly the support past QB's have had, which would have made him look a lot better, what he seems to need is a better handle on what is happening during a play, and the calmness to take what it gives. QB's do sometimes get better at that, sometimes a lot better. Not always, but sometimes. So, yes, I am hoping for that.
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110%er [5084]
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Re: Well thought and argued, and I cant disagree.
Jul 10, 2024, 4:26 PM
[ in reply to Well thought and argued, and I cant disagree. ] |
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I had high hopes heading into last season but will be taking a wait and see approach this year. Maybe he makes a leap, maybe not. If he could just be a top 20 QB nationally that would be huge. And if that happens I think it opens up our recruiting. 2025s class on the offensive side of the ball is abysmal at the moment. We've got to do better.
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Heisman Winner [122105]
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Learned on Monday about Dabos strategy re/ NIL
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:16 AM
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He does not use NIL collective $$$ as a means to attract/convince any top recruits to commit.
He does tell top recruits if they like everything that Clemson has to offer, NIL $$$ will be there once they commit, arrive, and SHOW that they are the real deal.
Ultimately, Dabo uses NIL to KEEP the best players that WANT TO BE HERE.
Obed®
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Lot o points [161110]
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Youre a businessman.
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:31 AM
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Say you have to choose between two places to work for 4 years, workplace A and B.
A seems like a place you’d love and you love the leadership. B isn’t as good as A and the leadership isn’t as friendly, but not so bad you couldn’t live with it for 4 years (or maybe even 3).
You have career aspirations and A and B are probably equal at getting you the promotion/transfer you want when 4 years are up.
Finally, the hiring manager at B says “I want you so badly on our team that we will give you $500k if you say yes.” Coach B says, “I really want you here. Tell you what, you come here and do well and make sure you’re taken care of. Trust me.”
Who are you choosing at 18 years old?
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Heisman Winner [122105]
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Many are too immature to choose wisely, others not so.
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:42 AM
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Dabo counts on the latter
It is what it is…
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Lot o points [161110]
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Problem is I cant call either side "unwise". I get both.***
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Jul 10, 2024, 11:47 AM
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All-In [49929]
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Do we know what current players are receiving big $ in NIL?
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Jul 10, 2024, 12:46 PM
[ in reply to Learned on Monday about Dabos strategy re/ NIL ] |
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not just which players, but how much $$$.
Seems like if this is common on our team, and $ are somewhat competitive, recruits would know that and be willing to take a shot, if they liked everything else about us, better than somewhere else.
Message was edited by: NoIntroduction®
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Oculus Spirit [94899]
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I think we do better as it is now.
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Jul 10, 2024, 4:43 PM
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I believe we recruit a higher caliper guy when we share our culture with them and they like what we present. Note that Dabo isn't blowing smoke when it comes to moral concerns. Many coaches talk the talk but mature adults, parent and grandparents, can discern the truth by meeting them and searching their history on social media and other web components. Some talk the talk but it's clear they don't walk the walk.
There are two reasons Venables left his son at Clemson. Quality leadership at the top recruits quality leadership all the way down the line and men like Dabo with both high moral standards and intelligence are rare, almost unique.
Here's Dabo's outline, Eph 6:
"5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."
Gundy said he wouldn't punish that 20 year old player on his team and gave me pause. I concluded neither does Dabo punish our players. He calls it 'the love shack,' and rather than punishment he chastens them. See Hebrews 12:6 for reference.
Win, lose or fired, as long as Dabo continues he is my horse even if he comes in last.
'Be ye not conformed...' U NO!
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Lot o points [161110]
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All good thoughts.
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Jul 10, 2024, 5:24 PM
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None were really what I was asking about, but good thoughts nonetheless
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Oculus Spirit [94899]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95840
Joined: 12/25/09
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Re: All good thoughts.
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Jul 11, 2024, 5:20 PM
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I responded to your question 'will our current MO lead to losing top assistants?' What leads to losing top assistants is Dabo's love for those he hires and his passion to see them reach their goals. I thin they all know that and make sure they are ready to leave.
If you're talking about our current OC, I think when we have one of those 14-1 and everybody with $7 mil/yr to spend calls you'll find him leaning on Dabo for advise just like Brent, Tony and Jeff. Imo, Garrett came here to learn our system, polish his skills and grow toward becoming a head coach.
His talent, skill, drive to succeed and moral concerns are what made him attractive to Dabo.
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