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Replies: 158
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All-In [27149]
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All-TigerNet [13146]
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And illegals are much easier to find after committing a crime
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Feb 29, 2024, 2:27 PM
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address, ss#, phone records, DNA profile, medical history, criminal history....so many ways to track down.
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All-In [47750]
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PLUS.....Most all have a court date.***
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Feb 29, 2024, 2:32 PM
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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They couldn't murder in Texas if they had moved on to Chicago or NY or GA...***
Feb 29, 2024, 2:28 PM
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Heisman Winner [119734]
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Re: THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS
Feb 29, 2024, 2:34 PM
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No clue, Jimma
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All-In [34113]
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That's not what Breitbart told RPM to think***
Feb 29, 2024, 2:36 PM
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All-In [42196]
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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You don't think it's pretty bad that the conviction rate is almost
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Feb 29, 2024, 3:36 PM
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equal to that of native citizens, given the fact that the illegals are much harder to find/arrest since they are basically ghosts in society?
What is with the attempt to downplay this problem, anyway? Very bizarre.
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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Didn't he tell you...? He's a Conservative. Uh huh.***
Feb 29, 2024, 4:24 PM
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All-In [42196]
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Not downplaying at all
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:26 PM
[ in reply to You don't think it's pretty bad that the conviction rate is almost ] |
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It's horrible and that guy had no business here. But as predicted, y'all have far more outrage over this case than other homicides and think it's representative of all immigrants. If you can't see the dehumanization attempt so that it's applied to all of them, even the most innocent and harmless, I don't know what to tell ya.
Y'all routinely downplay the violent actions of far right white guys in this nation, right? Even to say they're "not a real problem".
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Far right white guys aren't a statistical problem, and nobody
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:36 PM
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downplays it on the rare event one of them commits a murder. There's infinitely more illegal immigrants than far right white guys, anyway.
I truly don't understand this knee jerk reaction to defend people who aren't supposed to be here in the first place. Do you think there's a reason Venezuela won't take their own citizens back? Maybe they're people who aren't great for a society?
Nobody is lumping all immigrants into this, it is ILLEGAL immigrants that are the problem. When someone's first action upon entering the country is to disregard that countries laws, it's not much of a stretch to think that pattern of behavior will continue.
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All-In [42196]
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Are we talking violence or just being here?
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:50 PM
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Because if we're talking violence, they are a statistical problem.
I truly don't understand this knee jerk reaction to defend people who aren't supposed to be here in the first place. Do you think there's a reason Venezuela won't take their own citizens back? Maybe they're people who aren't great for a society?
Read below Jimmy's response to Smiling. That's the crux of the thread. Legals can commit murder just as easily as illegals, and with this incident, we're already seeing the push to cast a wide net here of discrimination.
That's a very poor question with Venezuela. You know there a #### tone of legal Venezuelans here who fled out of fear of being executed and shot in the street? They're not fleeing because they're the bad people. I know a few Venezuelans who are just like that.
And YES, the illegal immigrant issue is a big problem. But you're wrong if you think this isn't going to be used a linchpin to create harsher discrimination.
Look, this murder is a horrific tragedy. And yes, this guy shouldn't have been here. We need a better system to prevent that. But I believe to Jimmy's point, let's not look at the whole lot of them in the same light.
Same was we can't do that with far right people just because one person among them commits violence.
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All-American [572]
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Re: Are we talking violence or just being here?
Feb 29, 2024, 5:08 PM
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Laken Riley
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All-In [42196]
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On to the ignore list with you
Mar 1, 2024, 7:33 AM
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Man, we just keep sucking in some new idiots during this election.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Its really strange logic.
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Feb 29, 2024, 5:13 PM
[ in reply to Far right white guys aren't a statistical problem, and nobody ] |
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It’s like if cops were letting people get away with putting boulders in the middle of the highway and someone was gloating about the death rate from hitting boulders being slightly less than the death rate from traditional accidents.
I mean, ok, but the death rate from hitting boulders would be something close to 0% if you enforced people not putting boulders in the road. Instead some just act like the boulders are a natural, inevitable, immutable facet of driving.
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All-In [42196]
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We gotta work on your analogy game.***
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Mar 1, 2024, 8:57 AM
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Lot o points [155944]
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Don't hate it because its fantastic.***
Mar 1, 2024, 9:47 AM
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All-In [42196]
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Comparing boulders to humans. Definitely works!***
Mar 1, 2024, 10:49 AM
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Lot o points [155944]
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Bob Segers "like a rock" must have really baffled you***
Mar 1, 2024, 11:14 AM
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All-In [42196]
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Re: Bob Segers "like a rock" must have really baffled you***
Mar 4, 2024, 7:34 AM
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Sometimes I feel like trying to decipher your analogies is like working on mysteries without any clues.
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CU Guru [1071]
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Re: Far right white guys aren't a statistical problem, and nobody
Feb 29, 2024, 9:09 PM
[ in reply to Far right white guys aren't a statistical problem, and nobody ] |
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downplays it on the rare event one of them commits a murder. There's infinitely more illegal immigrants than far right white guys, anyway.
I truly don't understand this knee jerk reaction to defend people who aren't supposed to be here in the first place. Do you think there's a reason Venezuela won't take their own citizens back? Maybe they're people who aren't great for a society?
Nobody is lumping all immigrants into this, it is ILLEGAL immigrants that are the problem. When someone's first action upon entering the country is to disregard that countries laws, it's not much of a stretch to think that pattern of behavior will continue.
Do not confuse him with rational thoughts
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All-In [49054]
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Millions more, yes.***
Mar 1, 2024, 9:39 AM
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Not downplaying at all
Mar 1, 2024, 8:52 PM
[ in reply to Not downplaying at all ] |
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You are forgetting all the masss shooters who overwhelmingly turn out to be liberals or children of liberals.
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All-In [27149]
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This is the dumbest thing I have read here all day.
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Mar 1, 2024, 8:56 PM
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And we had a guy talking about Jewish Space lasers.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: This is the dumbest thing I have read here all day.
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Mar 1, 2024, 8:59 PM
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You can read?
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All-In [27149]
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Yes?***
Mar 1, 2024, 9:02 PM
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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All-In [27149]
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No?***
Mar 1, 2024, 9:05 PM
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All-In [42196]
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Not downplaying at all
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Mar 1, 2024, 8:56 PM
[ in reply to Not downplaying at all ] |
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The outrage has mostly to do with the victim being a young woman with a future who was killed on a campus of higher Ieaening. If she had been a prostitute on the street nobody would have heard or cared about it.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Not downplaying at all
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Mar 1, 2024, 8:56 PM
[ in reply to Not downplaying at all ] |
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The outrage has mostly to do with the victim being a young woman with a future who was killed on a campus of higher Ieaening. If she had been a prostitute on the street nobody would have heard or cared about it.
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All-American [572]
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All-In [42196]
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Which part?
Feb 29, 2024, 4:23 PM
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The part that one person committing the murder doesn't condemn all people of that demographic?
And don't lecture me, son, on talking to parents of murdered children. I've done that far more than you'd ever even imagine stomaching.
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All-American [572]
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Re: Which part?
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:27 PM
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LOL; "SON"
Seriously, since you're a tough guy; go to Laken Riley's parenys house and read the post you made here to them. Do it.
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All-American [572]
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Re: Which part?
Feb 29, 2024, 4:28 PM
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Me thinks you won't
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All-In [42196]
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Act like a child, get called as one.
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Which part? ] |
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Clearly you struggle with the reading comprehension if you don't get the point of the post.
I've never met a family member whose loved one was murdered hold the entire demographic that the killer fits responsible.
And please stop pretending you care. If she had been killed by a white dude (which happens more than it should on college campuses), you wouldn't say a word. How about addressing campus safety, which is already being called into question at UGA over this and has at several university's, including Clemson. Remember the young lady who was murdered there a few years ago?
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All-American [572]
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Re: Act like a child, get called as one.
Feb 29, 2024, 4:38 PM
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I mentioned nothing about demographics but evidently it's a priority with you, NOT the FACT that an ILLEGAL IMMGRANT(who should have NEVER BEEN HERE) murdered a young female college student, a CITIZEN; LITERALLY bashing her face in.
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All-In [42196]
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Clearly can't understand this thread
Feb 29, 2024, 4:44 PM
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And feigning an over-emotional response to make your argument. Maybe sit this one out.
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All-American [572]
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Re: Clearly can't understand this thread
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Feb 29, 2024, 5:08 PM
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Laken Riley
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Orange Blooded [4789]
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Re: Which part?
Mar 1, 2024, 11:20 AM
[ in reply to Which part? ] |
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Spare us your BS. Any time a Republican, ie white male, does anything your ilk rushes here to use it as confirmation that half the country is just like them and can be lumped into the same category of human. Now suddenly suspects need tl be judged on an individual basis? Make up your minds not that clarity of thought is a strong trait of the left.
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Lot o points [155944]
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CU Guru [1374]
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Re: Get out of here with that nonsense
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Feb 29, 2024, 7:48 PM
[ in reply to Get out of here with that nonsense ] |
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You can’t be serious. Do you honestly think that’s the only incident where an illegal murdered an American citizen? I have some beachfront property in Nebraska you would love.
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All-In [44054]
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I'm sure the far right will also be happy to make generalizations
Mar 1, 2024, 12:13 PM
[ in reply to Get out of here with that nonsense ] |
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about other things too, like guns. Since assault weapons are sometimes used to commit crimes, and have been used in virtually all mass shootings, we should ban them - right?
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Legend [16207]
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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HeyHey...hay.***
Feb 29, 2024, 3:09 PM
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All-In [27149]
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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So you just exposed the fallacy of your OP... Good work.***
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Feb 29, 2024, 3:34 PM
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110%er [5694]
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All-In [42196]
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Orange Blooded [4789]
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Re: THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS
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Feb 29, 2024, 2:59 PM
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The left wants this obviously nonsensical trope to be true so badly they are willing to suspend all disbelief and reflexively swallow hook line and sinker any random bit of propaganda that they encounter. Of course they also think most interracial crimes are white on black and that all serial killers are white, both of which are patently untrue. So not exactly the best sources from which to get your crime data.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS
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Feb 29, 2024, 3:18 PM
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Suspending all disbelief and reflexively swallowing hook line and sinker any random bit of propaganda that they encounter? What's that like, RPMcMurphy?
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110%er [5694]
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Is that Native Born
Feb 29, 2024, 3:05 PM
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Democrats?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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You guys who think this is some sort of gotcha should feel bad
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Feb 29, 2024, 3:32 PM
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Particularly since like 50% of murders go unsolved in this country.
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Legend [16207]
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Re: You guys who think this is some sort of gotcha should feel bad
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Feb 29, 2024, 3:50 PM
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Not to mention that "murder" is only one kind of crime. Just disregard attempted murder, rape, theft, burglary, child molestation, drunk driving, etc. etc. Can't wait for the HAY HAY to give us his deep research on those crimes.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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But it's OK cause native citizens commit those crimes too
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Feb 29, 2024, 3:53 PM
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So we should be alright with essentially doubling the rates due to these job seekers.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: But it's OK cause native citizens commit those crimes too
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Feb 29, 2024, 3:54 PM
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It's not doubling the rate. It's reducing the rate. When you combine a larger rate with a smaller rate, the overall rate ends up in between the two.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Ok so that's per 100k each sub population
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:08 PM
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So per every 100k illegal immigrants, 2.4 are convicted of murder. Per every 100k native citizen, 2.8 are convicted of murder. So if you didn't have any illegal immigrants, that's 2.4 murder convictions per 100k of them that would have never been necessary.
I've had a long day so maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but I'm looking at a chart that shows me illegals are convicted of murder at about the same rate as native citizens, and I fail to see how that's making any sort of positive point on behalf of illegal immigrants.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Ok so that's per 100k each sub population
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:13 PM
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Sounds like you're looking at it the right way. Some people would have us believe that illegal immigrants are a bunch of nasty criminals, which is why it's worth noting that they're actually slightly less murdery than regular old US citizens.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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We don't really know that though, given that around half of the murders are
Feb 29, 2024, 4:17 PM
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never solved. Logic would dictate that the people that are harder to find are much harder to arrest/convict, so they would make up a significant % of those that go unsolved.
I would also be curious to see the stats once you take gangbangers out of the equation, probably wouldn't look very nice for the illegal population.
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All-In [27149]
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It's imperfect data but it's more perfect than making sweeping statements based
Feb 29, 2024, 4:22 PM
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on selection bias from viral news stories. I could also point to the fact that we've been screaming about illegals flooding our cities yet violent crime is going down, and property crime we seem to associate with native-born "youths." One would think that if illegals were murdery at rates based on hyperventilation, murder rates would be skyrocketing. They're not.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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That data shows that a population that shouldn't be here in the first place
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:32 PM
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is murdering people at about the same rate as the native population. That is not a good look for that crew....That shows that they are very murdery, particularly considering there's really one small group of natives that is responsible for most of the native murders. If you take that group out of the equation, it looks much worse for the illegals.
And again, these are people that should not be here in the first place, hence murders that should have never happened. We will see crime increase because of these people, now whether or not that crime is actually reported to the federal govt. for the world to see is a different story.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: That data shows that a population that shouldn't be here in the first place
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:52 PM
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Your earlier point about what "logic dictates" is not good logic. You said 50% of murders go unsolved, and then conclude that most of those are probably committed by illegal immigrants. There is simply no logic pointing in that direction. For starters, there are far, FAR, fewer immigrants than natives, so random chance would logically lead to the vast majority of unsolved murders being caused by natives. You will need to show that the supposed ghostlike invisibility of immigrants makes them more likely to be the real killer, and not just more likely but so many more times likely that it makes up for the far greater number of natives. That will take more than a hand wavy reference to logic. Until then, it doesn't look like illegal immigration is resulting in an increase in the murder rate.
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All-In [27149]
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Plus, if you want to assess the exact risk in the case of Riley, you need to
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Feb 29, 2024, 7:25 PM
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focus on homicide by a stranger, which are very rare according to FBI crime data. So, the Riley tragedy is a very, very flimsy platform for building immigration policy. Which is entirely my point. Fears over illegal immigrants and violent crime are largely a function of hysterics, than logic.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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We don't know how many illegal immigrant are, safe to say it is
Mar 1, 2024, 9:31 AM
[ in reply to Re: That data shows that a population that shouldn't be here in the first place ] |
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10's of millions. It's not that they're necessarily more likely to be the real killer, just that they are much harder to track and find. So if half of your murders go unsolved, and you've got a large bloc of people you don't have any information on, there is a high likelihood that they are responsible for at least a significant amount of those unsolved murders. If illegal immigrants have a murder rate similar to the native population, they are increasing the amount of murders in the country. It's very simple.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: We don't know how many illegal immigrant are, safe to say it is
Mar 1, 2024, 10:59 AM
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If illegal immigrants have a murder rate similar to the native population, they are increasing the amount of murders in the country just like us. It's very simple.
FIFY. Since the rates are the same (at worst), then the argument is as much against us having more babies as against immigration. I'm willing to accept the stop-having-babies conclusion if we want to bite the bullet on that.
Your points about whether unsolved murders would increase or decrease with changes in illegal immigration is an empirical claim and might be true.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Except the native population has an inherent right to be here, whereas those
Mar 1, 2024, 11:07 AM
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people do not. If they were not here(which they shouldn't be), the murders they commit would not happen.
Likewise, if the argument for needing illegal immigrants is to increase the labor pool, that would be an argument against abortion to raise the native population birth rates.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Except the native population has an inherent right to be here, whereas those
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Mar 1, 2024, 11:33 AM
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Right, but now you're saying the murder rate isn't the problem, it's the illegality of the immigration. In other words, we aren't objecting to adding more people to our country simply because some of them murder. We just want our murderers to get here through vaginas--the other "southern border."
.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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If you have an invasive species like say, the python in the Florida Everglades
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Mar 1, 2024, 5:29 PM
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And they kill native wildlife at the same rate as say, alligators….whose natural habitat is the Everglades…that is correctly looked at as a python problem, and not alligator problem. Because it’s the pythons who shouldn’t be there in the first place putting additional stress on the ecosystem. The point you are trying to make is absurd, I’m sorry.
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Lot o points [155944]
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All-In [27149]
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Not really.
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Feb 29, 2024, 7:18 PM
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I see it the same way as the debate over firearms. Coming in here screaming "Laken!" is the same thing as a progressive nut wading into a gun debate screaming "Sandy Hook!" Sensationalized edge cases are a terrible basis for policy. You have to look at the data. The data I believe to be reliable says immigrants commit crimes at a lesser clip than natives. On a more anecdotal level not reliant on personal preference for data, I don't see violent crime trends following illegal immigration trends, just as mass shootings don't follow gun proliferation at a ratio that shows causal relationships.
So, we end up with the same type of question to ask.
Are guns used in mass shootings? Yes. Do illegal immigrants commit violent crimes? Yes. But, is taking sufficient action to prevent either thing worth the cost, especially if we're talking about edge cases?
Not if we're talking about complete eradication of private gun ownership. Not if we're talking about completely shutting down immigration.
Are there reasonable steps to take to mitigate risk? Of course. On both.
But, if you live in a world of hysterics, based on flawed data, you're not going to take logical steps to address the real concerns. Liberals miss this on guns. Conservatives miss this on immigration.
My only point with the OP, aside from trolling, is to do exactly what I do with guns and mass shootings — take the air out of the hysterics.
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Lot o points [155944]
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The two aren't remotely analogous though.
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Feb 29, 2024, 7:41 PM
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They're 180's even, with one being constitutionally protected and one being consitutionally prohibited (in as much as the Constitution gives Congress plenary powers to make immigration laws, and current laws say it's illegal).
It's also funny to me when one says "Illegal immigrants commit less crimes". Well, no, they actually don't. In fact they have a 100% crime commission ratio. You and others who make this argument are really saying "They commit less crimes that I care about", which seems more than a little arbitrary.
All that is rolling from a "conviction" stat, which is far less interesting to me than a commission stat, and ultimately may or may not actually tell us meaningful stats about the demographic....one which we've seen get inexplicably lax law enforcement efforts directed their way in the modern era.
But it all still flies in the face of the argument being mooted by the fact that the comparison between illegals and natives is irrelevant. We are constitutionally required to be the home of one of those groups, along with all the good and bad stats that come from said group. We are not constitutionally required to host or tolerate the other group, with the good or bad stats that may come from them. There could be 100,000 native-committed murders for every 5 illegal-committed murders, and that would still be 5 murders more than necessary.
In fact, that 2.4 stat that you are impressed by would probably plummet even lower if the groups were further whittled down to those inclined to respect the law by beginning their very first steps into this country legally.
It's a deflection tactic to compare any ratios between the groups, and it obfuscates the fact that any negatives from said group shouldn't be occurring in the first place.
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All-In [27149]
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On the rhetorical merits of each argument? Absolutely they overlap.
Feb 29, 2024, 9:38 PM
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Yeah, they differ on constitutionality and the legal limitations/obligations, but you could argue as much as the government must recognize an individual right to firearms, people also have a natural right to free travel, or government has a fundamental obligation within a free market society to craft immigration policy that creates the greatest free flow of labor to meet market needs (in essence, the lightest touch possible on restricting immigration, meeting only obligations to national health/security). But I'm not going to defend this point any further because it's more philosophical than pragmatic to the border, and I recognize it's not a particularly strong argument even if right on philosophical principle.
But back to my original point, which again is exactly how I would approach the Left when it comes to guns. The economics of illegal immigration is a far, far more compelling case against it than the need to spin some hyperbolic fiction over the dangers from illegal immigrants; just as the mass shootings are a terribly weak starting place for gun control. And, making this point, especially against data that shows otherwise, poisons the well for any more meaningful debate.
Dispelling this myth also has a way of de-cloaking other motives that deserve sunlight. Are people against illegal immigration because of economics, or do they simply not want more non-whites (for whatever reason). It's good to know motives because then you understand these are not people to listen to when it comes to crafting realistic policy because they want a scenario that can't possibly exist. The same as if you knew someone truly wanted to get rid of all guns, it frames better their motives behind gun control. I'm not sure how much value this has, again, pragmatically, but it at least keeps people honest.
And, fwiw, I am not moved in the slightest by a "100% crime commission ratio" because they are here illegally. One's immigration status means absolutely nothing to me, and I find it every bit of a crime as speeding 1mph over the speed limit. Maybe I would feel different if we had a functional immigration system that wasn't the single-biggest contributor to illegal immigration, but under what we have right now? But, I'm not buying the "it's a crime!" as an argument in and of itself. Is their presence an economic burden? Are they a public health or public safety threat? Those are compelling arguments, but on their own merits, not because they are here legally or illegally.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Re: On the rhetorical merits of each argument? Absolutely they overlap.
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Feb 29, 2024, 10:21 PM
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"And, fwiw, I am not moved in the slightest by a "100% crime commission ratio" because they are here illegally"
fair enough, but understand It's an incredibly biased and entirely arbitrary stance that makes a debate centered around facts and logic nigh on impossible, which is unfortunate given your stated goal of removing emotion from the debate.
"I care about illegals committing homocides" is no more emotional, and possibly less emotional, than "I don't care about illegals breaking the law by their very presence, enough so that I refuse to acknowledge the factual criminality of the act"
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All-In [27149]
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Malum prohibitum versus malum in se.***
Feb 29, 2024, 10:35 PM
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Legend [18026]
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The arguments are also purposefully ignoring the positive outcomes
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Feb 29, 2024, 7:43 PM
[ in reply to Not really. ] |
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because that makes the issue more complex and more difficult to build emotional responses to.
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Lot o points [155944]
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The thread began with a comparison of negatives.
Feb 29, 2024, 8:34 PM
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Seems like we’re staying on topic rather than attempting some devious emotional manipulation.
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Legend [18026]
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The thread started off as a continuation of previous posts/points...
Feb 29, 2024, 8:51 PM
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born from "devious emotional manipulation" to only focus on the negative.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Maybe in your head, but here in reality
Feb 29, 2024, 9:23 PM
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It was Jimmy posting a tweet to stats about negative comparables and using the comparison as a strange positive of sorts. .
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Legend [18026]
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lol, okay. Curious, in your reality why did he title the thread as he did?
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Feb 29, 2024, 9:34 PM
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"THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS"
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Lot o points [155944]
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I'm assuming because like the tweet thread author, he
Feb 29, 2024, 10:17 PM
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viewed being convicted of homicides at lesser percentages than natives as an argument in favor of illegal immigration.
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Legend [18026]
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but why is he pointing that out* and why use title "THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS"
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Feb 29, 2024, 11:01 PM
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in a sarcastic way if not as a response to a previous narrative that's been echoed on this board and in this very thread? Do you think he just randomly brought it up?
*I don't think he posted in trying to argue for illegal immigration, just against the narrative that they are all "murderers."
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All-In [27149]
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All-In [27149]
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It wasn't meant to be taken as a positive.
Feb 29, 2024, 9:41 PM
[ in reply to Maybe in your head, but here in reality ] |
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It was showing that the idea of illegal immigrants being a bigger public safety threat than what a person would face being surrounded completely by citizens, is not supported by reality.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Is that even true mathematically?
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Feb 29, 2024, 10:16 PM
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If I am in a large pen with 100 alligators , and 10 out of those 100 alligators eat people, and 100 crocodiles are added to the pen, and only 8 of those 100 crocodiles eat people, does my chance of getting eaten go up or down?
Does proportionality matter more than overall quantity? If you placed a premium on survival, would you want me to add the 100 crocodiles to the situation or not?
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All-In [27149]
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It's assuming you're surrounded by 100 in either scenario.
Feb 29, 2024, 10:39 PM
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Since, for all practical purposes for the vast majority of people, immigration is never experienced as observable population density; only in, perhaps, observable population demographics. I know the case that's going to be replied is a picture of a street lined with unhoused migrants, or the airports filled with sleeping migrants -- but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking whether you have found yourself obviously surrounded by more people than there were before this "immigration crisis."
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Lot o points [155944]
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Of course you arent
Feb 29, 2024, 10:50 PM
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Nor are you in real life. It’s one population that’s added to another to make a cumulative number of threats, not proportional ratios among fixed population numbers.
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All-In [27149]
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Yes, it is essentially a fixed population number.
Feb 29, 2024, 10:59 PM
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Adding 10 million illegal immigrants disbursed across the entire United States has no perceptible impact to you in terms of density. It would only make an impact, and this is even a stretch to suggest it is perceptible, on the racial composition of those around you.
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Lot o points [155944]
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are you suggesting they're dispersed evenly?
Feb 29, 2024, 11:40 PM
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and imperceptible? spoken like someone who never lived on lower South Blvd before and after 2000 or so.
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All-In [27149]
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No, which further makes my point that few, if any people, are going to be
Feb 29, 2024, 11:59 PM
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in your alligator situation where the population change wouldn't be either a fixed number, or a number that was able to be perceived. At most it would be a perceptible demographic change, and even then there would be no way to know if the growth of this hispanic population change was due to legal or illegal immigration. And that's the whole point. It isn't about the growth itself, but the legal status of our new residents.
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Lot o points [155944]
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No it doesnt***
Mar 1, 2024, 6:21 AM
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All-In [27149]
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Your mom.***
Mar 1, 2024, 8:21 AM
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Lot o points [155944]
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I've got nuthin.***
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:46 AM
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All-In [27149]
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Re: I've got nuthin.***
Mar 1, 2024, 9:49 AM
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All-American [572]
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All-In [42196]
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But that argument can be made...
Mar 1, 2024, 7:41 AM
[ in reply to Is that even true mathematically? ] |
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For any group of people, really, if we're taking your analogy. One in 25 is a sociopath. Surround yourself with 100, and that's four people who are capable of doing terrible things around you, regardless of their background.
I think the problem Jimmy addresses, and I ask if you can see this (and I'm certainly not accusing you of this) is a concentrated effort to dehumanize immigrants for a bigger set up. We've already had a few idiots here advocate gunning them down at the border. That becomes a lot easier when the population has become dehumanized to them.
With this UGA case, I look at it as yes, this guy shouldn't have been here, and multiple failures in the system set this up to happen (including campus security). Rather than making this an overall "immigrants are bad" issue (and you know some folks are taking that approach), let's look at fixing the failures in the system (which I assume you agree with as well).
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Lot o points [155944]
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We aren't far off.
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:44 AM
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I'd like to settle on a system, somehow, that establishes an acceptable number of legal immigrants, an acceptable system for how they are processed and managed, and a reasonable and acceptable pathway to citizenship, and then once that is decided, all illegals and those that would transport and hire them here are handled with the harshest legal enforcement possible.
Do I think we will ever get there? No way. A) Good luck getting a consensus from both sides on what those parameters I just described look like. B) Even if we reached those I still think there would be conveniently lax enforcement that always turned a blind eye to just a few more illegals coming across. Regardless, it's what I'd like to see, and I hope the viewpoint shows that I certainly not against immigration in a blanket fashion.
With all that said, it's a real insult to thinking people's intelligence to say that the horde of illegals we have seen enter our country over the last decade or two is totally fine because they're less murder-y than Americans, and that somehow all those Americans negatively affected by crimes (any crime) committed by them is some sort of acceptable statistical loss.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: We aren't far off.
Mar 1, 2024, 11:00 AM
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On your first two paragraphs, agree 100 percent. And I still argue there is a Democrat long game at play here to allow this to happen (I think you agree) but that it's severely backfired under Biden. So as long as there are people willing to let it happen, it ain't getting fixed.
With all that said, it's a real insult to thinking people's intelligence to say that the horde of illegals we have seen enter our country over the last decade or two is totally fine because they're less murder-y than Americans, and that somehow all those Americans negatively affected by crimes (any crime) committed by them is some sort of acceptable statistical loss.
But who is saying that? Even Jimmy isn't saying that.
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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All-American [572]
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Re: Not really.
Mar 1, 2024, 3:33 AM
[ in reply to Not really. ] |
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Laken Riley
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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All-American [572]
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Re: THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:11 PM
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So having additional violent crimes committed by groups of people who illegally entered the country is ok by you as long as they don't commit these crimes at a higher rate as citizens.
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All-In [34598]
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yes***
Feb 29, 2024, 4:13 PM
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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'Circle' gonna jerk...***
Feb 29, 2024, 4:15 PM
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All-American [572]
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Re: yes***
Feb 29, 2024, 5:07 PM
[ in reply to yes*** ] |
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Laken Riley
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All-In [27149]
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All-In [42196]
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No.
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS ] |
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Just don't feign outrage over this without doing the same on the others.
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All-In [27149]
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come on buddy. I thought we had our answers ironed out in the pre-thread
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:31 PM
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meeting.
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All-In [42196]
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I guess we did but...
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:33 PM
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We've got this little newb scok rolling in here pretending he actually cares about this case.
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All-In [27149]
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Let's get the circle jerk crew together in 5 min and replan.***
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:39 PM
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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Confirmation... ;~)***
Feb 29, 2024, 5:00 PM
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CU Medallion [58424]
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There's nothing newsworthy or surprising about that.
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:38 PM
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The point remains that Illegals should not be here and have a chance to murder in the first place, and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have better border security and policies that limit and reduce illegals more effectively.
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All-In [27149]
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This begs the question of whether their legal status would make a difference.
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:41 PM
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When you say "they shouldn't be here," that seems to imply that we should dramatically cut legal immigration, since it's a stretch to say the murderers would be filtered out by a screening process. We know that's not true.
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All-In [42196]
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And folks, we've arrived at the thesis.***
Feb 29, 2024, 4:44 PM
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I think that's patently absurd to think potential murderers would not
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Feb 29, 2024, 4:45 PM
[ in reply to This begs the question of whether their legal status would make a difference. ] |
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be filtered out by a screening process. Not all of them, of course, but many would. Depending on the screening process obviously, I would assume Mr. MS13 tatted all over his face would get filtered out but in clown world who knows.
Not to mention, your own tweet shows legal immigrants commit murder at a much lower rate. Could that be because they went through some sort of screening process?!?
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All-In [42196]
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What would be the screening process to snag potential murderers...
Feb 29, 2024, 4:51 PM
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Aside from gang tattoos?
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Lot o points [155944]
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Like he already said. A propensity to follow the law by Immigrating legally
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5
Feb 29, 2024, 10:30 PM
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would be a fantastic litmus test that would weed many out.
Additionally, I'm assuming there would be database checks against the records of their home countries (which would obviously vary greatly in thoroughness and accuracy) but would still certainly weed many out with existing arrest records.
It's not that difficult.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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There are a ton of data points you can look at
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:34 AM
[ in reply to What would be the screening process to snag potential murderers... ] |
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Age, family status, education, skills, overall intelligence, etc. A 35 year old machinist with average intelligence and 2 kids is much less likely to murder someone than a 21 year old illiterate with an IQ of 80. Not only that, he is more likely to be a value add to society as opposed to a drain on it.
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110%er [9667]
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CU Medallion [58424]
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The idea that illegals shouldn't be here in the first place is one that stands
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Feb 29, 2024, 7:45 PM
[ in reply to This begs the question of whether their legal status would make a difference. ] |
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on it's own, apart from any other claims or ideas, and implies nothing else.
It is a fact that if an illegal alien murders somebody in our country, that that particular murder would have been prevented if that illegal alien had not been in our country. It also follows that if we have fewer illegals in our country, we will have fewer murders committed by illegals.
Anything else is you arguing against claims I have not made.
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All-In [27149]
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I have no problem stipulating that. But that question demands a follow up:
Feb 29, 2024, 9:52 PM
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Is the public safety aspect of illegal immigration worth the economic costs of its pursuit, and to what degree of balance? You can't just argue that point as anything more than a stand-alone comment without considering the costs to reach that goal, just as the Left should be forced to answer the cost of pursuing the gun confiscation schemes they propose.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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Once again, I have not claimed that the public safety aspect of illegal
Feb 29, 2024, 11:02 PM
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immigration is worth the econimic costs of it's pursuit. You are trying to reframe the issue in a way that allows you to make a point I am not arguing against.
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All-In [27149]
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Then I suppose my argument is that saying "The point remains that Illegals
Feb 29, 2024, 11:09 PM
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should not be here and have a chance to murder in the first place" has as much value as saying people should not have guns in gun free zones.
I guess I have no idea what point is being made other than one that nobody could disagree with on its face.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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My point is, Illegals murdering our citizens is unacceptable, and better
Mar 1, 2024, 12:01 AM
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border security and more sensible policy may have prevented this particular murder, but would be beneficial for many other reasons as well. The fact that native-born Americans murder at a higher rate than illegals doesn't change that.
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All-In [27149]
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Nobody is arguing against the former.
Mar 1, 2024, 12:12 AM
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And the latter does matter if you're trying to paint immigrants as inherently dangerous, since based on the data, your risk of being murdered (and trafficked) is higher around people you know, than those you don't know. You may not be trying to paint Hispanic immigrants in this way, but this thread wasn't directed at you. (Though, based on our previous threads about 'Is it racist,' I know you also are unlikely to accept that people on here are doing that anyways, to which I respectfully disagree and say we have no need to relitigate that.)
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CU Medallion [58424]
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I am certainly not trying to paint immigrants as dangerous, and I realize
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Mar 1, 2024, 12:19 AM
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some people do that. But it would be naive to think that the current border situation isn't being exploited by bad people, and is one reason we better border security and better policy.
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All-In [27149]
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That's the much more fun, and productive debate.
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Mar 1, 2024, 12:24 AM
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Whether better security or better policy is the better solution. Of course, it takes both. But I believe better policy reduces the need for better security, and that's where I would tip the scales.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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I would say any solution must include better security as a major part. We
Mar 1, 2024, 12:30 AM
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should control who gets in and who doesn't without apology.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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Scout Team [152]
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All-In [27149]
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literally addressed by the author two tweets below that one.
Feb 29, 2024, 5:51 PM
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smdh
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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Strokin' your what head...?***
Mar 1, 2024, 11:07 AM
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Scout Team [152]
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Re: literally addressed by the author two tweets below that one.
Mar 1, 2024, 3:24 PM
[ in reply to literally addressed by the author two tweets below that one. ] |
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Let's see if I'm following your logic. You started a thread with a tweet from an individual (Alex Nowrasteh) of a graph that shows illegal immigrants commit less murders per 100k population than US citizens in Texas. You defend this throughout as absolute truth. I post a response with a paper from the Center for Immigration Studies that shows Nowrasteh's methodology is flawed because he undercounts illegal immigrants through a binning process. Your reply is - yeah a couple tweets later he mentions this. Mentions what? That he overstated in the graph that you submitted and defended as truth? You didn't post the additional tweet. It's ok though, I went and read his blog. Which shows he "accepts" that his methodology is flawed in some ways, but that overall it's a "good" way to look at the data. Sorry, I'll go with the Center for Immigration Studies results over an individual's opinion any day. Manipulating data to tell a story that matches a certain political agenda - who would have thought that was the play?
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All-In [27149]
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Manipulating data to tell a story that matches a certain political agenda
Mar 1, 2024, 3:39 PM
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And this is your defense of CIS?
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All-In [27149]
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Re: Manipulating data to tell a story that matches a certain political agenda
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Mar 1, 2024, 3:40 PM
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Scout Team [152]
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Re: Manipulating data to tell a story that matches a certain political agenda
Mar 1, 2024, 3:58 PM
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That would be a great response - on a middle school playground. SMDH now.
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All-In [27149]
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If you can't stand the heat.
Mar 1, 2024, 4:07 PM
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Stay off the metal slide.
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110%er [9667]
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What would that rate be with no illegals ?***
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Feb 29, 2024, 5:57 PM
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All-TigerNet [10932]
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Re: THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS
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Feb 29, 2024, 6:37 PM
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Just one from an illegal is one too many.
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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Back to the OP... So we should be thankful that illegals are convicted at a
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Feb 29, 2024, 6:42 PM
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slightly lessor rate than US citizens in Texas?? I'm sure Laken Riley's parents and the countless others who have been victims of illegal alien crime are comforted to know this statistic. I mean - their daughter's head was bashed in at the hands of one of these illegal "asylum seekers" but hey - at least statistically the illegals are convicted at a slightly lower homicide rate than US citizens in Texas. Yeah!!
If these illegals were not allowed to stay in our country and were immediately expelled when caught then those numbers would darn sure be a lot lower. Truthfully the only acceptable number for illegal crime is ZERO. And while we may not be able to totally eradicate illegal alien crime upon our citizenry we could darn sure do a lot more to secure our borders and make it lot less than it is now.
PS... Biden's so full of shid in regards to "I need a bill to do something".... He already has the Presidential authority to suspend entry of aliens under 8 U.S.C. § 1182(f):
"(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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Re: Back to the OP... So we should be thankful that illegals are convicted at a
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Feb 29, 2024, 7:45 PM
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Lot o points [155944]
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Hall of Famer [24098]
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Re: Hey
Mar 1, 2024, 8:04 AM
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Even if the probability of being murdered by a citizen is higher than the probability of being murdered by an illegal immigrant, the combined probability of being murdered is reduced if the probability of either one is reduced. Only one can be reduced by immigration enforcement.
I guess I don't really understand the point of the OP.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Hey
Mar 1, 2024, 8:15 AM
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Not true, because you're reducing the denominator.
Consider: Let's say there are 900 citizens 10 of whom are involved in murders (1.1111% rate) and 100 immigrants with 1 involved in murder (1.0% rate). Total murder rate = 11/1000 = 1.10% rate. Which is in between the two rates.
Now get rid of the immigrants. Rate goes back up to 1.1111%.
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Hall of Famer [24098]
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Re: Hey
Mar 1, 2024, 8:36 AM
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I wasn't referring to the rate. I was referring to the overall probability of being murdered.
900 citizens - 10 are murdered vs. 900 citizens and 11 are murdered.
In the first situation the citizen has a 1.1 percent chance of being murdered, in the second the citizen has a 1.2 percent chance of being murdered.
I realize, to have real numbers you would need to know how many citizens are being murdered vs illegal immigrants in this situation. But, even if that number is one more citizen, then the overall probability of a citizen being murdered is higher.
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Hall of Famer [24098]
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Re: Hey
Mar 1, 2024, 8:40 AM
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My first post should have stated overall probability of a citizen being murdered.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Hey
Mar 1, 2024, 8:56 AM
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That's an interesting question but we don't have enough information to know whether those odds go up or down. For instance, maybe the RPMcMurphys of the world feel more murdery when immigrants are around (seems likely) and so the number of citizens murdered actually decreases as maniacs change their targets.
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All-In [27149]
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I don't think it does except on the margins of some millionth of a percent.
Mar 1, 2024, 8:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Hey ] |
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And in terms of every day threats to your life, it wouldn't even crack the top 10. Not even sure it would crack the top 100.
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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Sorry Obed - I left TigerNet after posting last night
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Mar 1, 2024, 12:03 PM
[ in reply to Hey ] |
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It appears you held your own pretty well...
Part of my problem with having a discussion regarding illegal immigrants/immigration is that I simply have yet to find any coherent logic or argument for their "pro-illegal" immigration position. Their arguments simply make no sense to me - everything from their economic arguments to "well they actually murder less than US citizens" and that somehow that's makes illegal immigration "OK" and acceptable.
I also find that these "pro-illegal" immigration folks intentionally want try to derail most discussions by falsely characterizing those of us who oppose illegal immigration as being "anti-immigrant" with the added accusation that we view all illegal immigrants as murderers, rapists, and other dreadful criminals. This is an intentionally false characterization and a tactic (even being used by some in this very thread) as a means to cast the anti-illegal immigration argument as illegitimate.
The pro-illegal immigrant side also tend to obfuscate the issue by equating (wrongly) that poor people just seeking a better life in the USA somehow legitimizes their illegal border crossing with some even linking it to seeking "asylum". US asylum is very tailored to aliens who can prove they have been subjected to persecution (or have a well-founded fear of persecution) on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion by their home nation Government.
We know from our courts (for the minority who actually show up for their hearing five to six years down the road) that almost none of these illegals crossing our borders will meet this narrow category of asylum. Yet we let them stay in the USA with many having an "anchor baby" during the years it takes to get them a court hearing. Once these illegals have been here a while the Democrats will make the appeal to emotion argument that since many/most of these illegals have been a good "resident" they should be allowed to stay regardless of whether they meet the US asylum requirements or not.
The fact that our Asylum "system" is being intentionally abused is of no concern to the pro-illegal side. We are ultimately not expelling the majority these illegals from our country and as a result more immigrants see only an upside to entering the US illegally and ignore the proper channels for legal US immigration.
The US is in a unique position, as opposed to most nations on the planet, in that we could EASILY fill all of our immigration requirements (i.e. to meet economic needs, needed STEM expertise etc...) through LEGAL immigration. Yet one whole political Party (i.e. Democrats), with significant support from some in Republican Inc. choose an intentionally uncontrolled illegal-immigration path for their own political purposes for which no real world justification can be granted.
Meanwhile, US citizens will simply bear the costs in crime, inundation of our social services that is overwhelming State/city budgets, and the reduction of taxpayer resources to our own lower class citizenry caused by this pro-illegal immigration lawlessness.
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Orange Blooded [4789]
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Re: Sorry Obed - I left TigerNet after posting last night
Mar 1, 2024, 12:13 PM
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Bravo.
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110%er [5508]
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Re: THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS
1
1
Feb 29, 2024, 10:54 PM
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swing and a miss…you’ll get ‘em next time slugger!
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All-In [44054]
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Please don't tell this to Fox News.
Mar 1, 2024, 12:12 PM
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They are enjoying their propaganda machine that occurs nightly these days, implying that all illegal immigrants are bad because a few have committed crimes.
Don't get me wrong, I am 100% on board with protecting our borders better and strongly enforcing legal immigration, but it's very misleading for anyone to portray immigrants from Central America as likely criminals. It's really inaccurate, not to mention racist.
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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160 different countries at this point... It's no longer just Central America.
Mar 1, 2024, 3:53 PM
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True "racists" are the first to imply Racism.
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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Exhibit "A" from my previous post in this thread...
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Mar 2, 2024, 9:32 AM
[ in reply to Please don't tell this to Fox News. ] |
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They are enjoying their propaganda machine that occurs nightly these days, implying that all illegal immigrants are bad because a few have committed crimes.
Don't get me wrong, I am 100% on board with protecting our borders better and strongly enforcing legal immigration, but it's very misleading for anyone to portray immigrants from Central America as likely criminals. It's really inaccurate, not to mention racist.
You have intentionally mischaracterized what we say about illegal immigrants, illegal immigration and the anti-illegal immigration position. I have not seen anyone accuse "all" immigrants illegally flowing into this country as being violent criminals. Truthfully, we don't know what percentage of them are hardened criminals vs just poor people seeking a better life because when they cross illegally we don't get to vet them. Thus one the big problems with allowing this illegal immigration to continue.
BUT... 100% of them crossing into the USA illegally are, in fact, breaking US law. No twisting of the language or emotional justifications for their illegal border crossing will change that fact.
Finally - why resort to name calling? Your use of the "racist" label to falsely slander those with whom you disagree is intellectually lazy and designed to cast your opponents as reprobates as a way to avoid debate and is indicative of the weakness of your position.
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Head Coach [786]
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Head Coach [786]
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Re: THOSE MURDERING ILLEGALS
Mar 2, 2024, 9:24 AM
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I’m still expecting that Mexico is going to pay for the wall, but if it turns out they don’t, maybe the fat orange clown can use what’s left of his money to build his own wall. I think we could put a roller coaster at the top, sell cotton candy and Trump T-shirts on both sides of the wall, it’s gonna be really big. People really like it. It’s going to be great.
Let’s keep the government out of this and let Don do it himself.
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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Quit obfuscating the issue with this BS and just tell us why you support illegal
Mar 2, 2024, 9:35 AM
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immigration.
And if you don't support illegal immigration - then perhaps tell us how you believe this massive problem of illegal border crossings can be solved.
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