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All-In [46825]
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When you think about it, the concept of the devil is wild
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:46 AM
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God made his own enemy and can't defeat him? And then negotiates with him multiple times?
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Oculus Spirit [97744]
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This question will blow your mind. Could "good" exist if there were no "evil"?
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:50 AM
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You know me, I'll take it further.......
Could liberals exist without conservatives? Could Republicans exist without democrats? Could Oreos exist without milk? Could women exist without men? Could men exist without women? Could electrons exist without protons? Could Yin exist without Yang?
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CU Medallion [58431]
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If God were all-powerful, it certainly could.***
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:54 AM
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Oculus Spirit [97744]
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Could God exist without a Devil?
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:00 AM
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How would we know the difference, or follow the correct path when there is no alternative path to take?
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CU Medallion [58431]
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Again, if God is all-powerful, he could. Anything God wanted would be
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:06 AM
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automatic, as there would be nothing that could stop him other than himself. It's all entirely by his creation or his permission.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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Now, if you want to change the narrative to a God that has limited power,
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:18 AM
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and there are things he is incapable of doing, then yes, it would be entirely possible for some things to be beyond his control, and therefore necessary.
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All-In [46825]
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But then the bible is no longer infallible
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:20 AM
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I mean it's not anyways. But it's definitely not if God is not omnipresent and omnipotent
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CU Medallion [58431]
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Correct.***
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:44 AM
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110%er [7026]
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CU Medallion [58431]
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Again, if God were all-powerful, free will would not have been necessary.
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Mar 1, 2024, 11:00 AM
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Anything he wanted would have been possible in the blink of an eye, and whatever his purpose was for giving us free will, could have been achieved without it.
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Oculus Spirit [97744]
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I'd argue without free will, we could never know God.
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:22 PM
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Likewise, if God didn't give us free will, and made all of us good, we could never see or know God, or goodness, as there would be nothing other than goodness to know.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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It's an argument that doesn't hold up, and ignores the fact that anything is
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:13 PM
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possible for an all-powerful God. An all-powerful God could, by definition, make us so that we could know him and goodness without free will. You keep trying to come up with things that are impossible for an all-powerful God, which is impossible. There is nothing, by definition, that is impossible for an all-powerful God.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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All of the reasons given for God allowing the existence of evil require
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Mar 1, 2024, 11:14 AM
[ in reply to I think that delves into to whole created with free will thing.*** ] |
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a God that is not all-powerful as many/most of us were taught, and instead are based on the notion that God had to allow evil, and has to have a devil, and has to allow us to have free will.
An all-powerful God does not have to do anything. Even if God is limited by his own nature, that means he is not all-powerful.
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110%er [7026]
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I don't understand the confusion.
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Mar 4, 2024, 9:28 AM
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There was a great documentary that explained all of this. I believe it was called Bruce Almighty.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: I don't understand the confusion.
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Mar 4, 2024, 9:44 AM
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That’s blasphemy when we know the one true god is Nic Cage
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All-In [29874]
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Re: I don't understand the confusion.
Mar 4, 2024, 3:40 PM
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Oculus Spirit [97744]
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If God ended evil, he would be writing himself out of existence.
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:29 AM
[ in reply to Again, if God is all-powerful, he could. Anything God wanted would be ] |
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You could call it suicide for God to end evil, as it is evil that defines His goodness and presence. And we know his views on suicide, and that would be evil. Therefore God MUST have evil, and MUST NOT destroy evil. It is "good" for God to make evil and have it present, as that makes Him visible and exist in our lives.
Hence, ironically, it would evil for God to destroy evil, as that destroys himself, and by extension "good" as an alternative.
And this is something we see today with moral relativism. As the list of evil things declines, and we perceive things that were evil as no longer evil, that decreases the net number of juxtapositions and contrasts with God's word, and what is indeed "good". Long term, people slowly become more and more evil as they perceive less and less things to be evil, and see God less and less in that process.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: If God ended evil, he would be writing himself out of existence.
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:32 AM
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>we perceive things that were evil as no longer evil
Examples?
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Oculus Spirit [97744]
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Abortion. Drinking. Homosexuality. Weed. ####.
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:41 AM
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The list is endless of things that are declining in "evilness". #### is normalized. Weed is normalized. Drinking is normalized. Abortion is normalized. Divorce. Money. Greed. When the list of things that are evil declines, there is less and less opportunity to define, much less SEE good. And in that process, the net of a society becomes more and more evil without even knowing it as they can no longer see or define an alternative.
And this is exactly what happens in nations that are in decline. It happened in Rome, Athens, England, Istanbul, all of history's greatest and most powerful empires always marked their declines by increased moral relativism, and evil. And the society splinters and the empire crumbles.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: Abortion. Drinking. Homosexuality. Weed. ####.
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:46 AM
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There is arguing about whether fear of icebergs is a moralistic imposition while the list has reached 20 degrees.
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Re: Abortion. Drinking. Homosexuality. Weed. ####.
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:48 AM
[ in reply to Abortion. Drinking. Homosexuality. Weed. ####. ] |
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ok wow a lot to unpack here.
First of all, there is nothing new about drinking, whether it's "evil" or not isn't a new development.
Weed is arguably WAY less harmful than drinking so i'd put it in the same category.
As for homosexuality being evil? No, that's a dumb vestige of religion. Tell me what, specifically, besides "god doesn't like it" is evil about homosexuality? The only evil I see is that people, who think their god told them so, will harm or even kill homosexuals. But yeah, it's being gay that's the evil part.
Abortion: I agree there is a line at which it is evil, I do not know what that line is personally. But again, this isn't new.
Finally, you act like you guys don't have moral relativism. You can't agree on what god thinks is right or not.
Also, you'll call genocide bad (and rightly so!) but god can flood the whole world or command the slaughter of women and children and that's "good". Sounds pretty relative to me.
Look at your own leaders. Preachers go down all the time for sleeping with staff, cheating on their wives, alcoholism, and messing with kids.
Sorry, you guys definitely don't have the market cornered on morality.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Abortion. Drinking. Homosexuality. Weed. ####.
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Mar 1, 2024, 1:37 PM
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grape juice bruh
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All-In [46825]
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I saw that argument on buddybook last week. Local junkie turned
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Mar 1, 2024, 1:50 PM
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social media preacher was saying it was grape juice and they didn't have actual wine back then.
Somebody asked how Noah got drunk and it was all
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: I saw that argument on buddybook last week. Local junkie turned
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Mar 1, 2024, 2:13 PM
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Never been drunk enough to bang my own daughter.
Yuck.
And god chose that guy to save the world.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: I saw that argument on buddybook last week. Local junkie turned
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Mar 1, 2024, 2:15 PM
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lmao
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Orange Blooded [3074]
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: I saw that argument on buddybook last week. Local junkie turned
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Mar 2, 2024, 6:50 AM
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I stand corrected. Lot slept with both his daughters.
Noah just passed out naked.
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Commissioner [980]
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CU Medallion [58431]
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All-In [29874]
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Re: If God ended evil, he would be writing himself out of existence.
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Mar 1, 2024, 6:27 PM
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and that's the KJV, I wonder what ClemsonTiger1988® things about that one
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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CU Medallion [60043]
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All-In [29874]
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All-In [29874]
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Re: This question will blow your mind. Could "good" exist if there were no "evil"?
Mar 1, 2024, 6:16 PM
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Sometimes I like to post it just to post it.
and the gory-er version
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Commissioner [980]
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What are you talking about?
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:51 AM
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This is Eve's fault for eating a fruit because, checks notes, a talking snake told her too. This is somehow our fault too because we are now broken because of "the fall" (which again, we weren't there for but are still on the hook for).
It's a great perfectly loving system backed up by the best evidence, which part don't you get?
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CU Medallion [58431]
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As I've said, if God is all-powerful and all-knowing as I was taught, then
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:54 AM
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it follows that evil and the devil could only exist if God wants them to, and it makes no sense that he would be fighting against them, or that he wouldn't just make them disappear in the blink of an eye if he were.
There's something wrong with that story.
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Legend [17297]
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Oh Gawd. Not another Biden or Trump post.
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:57 AM
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Oh never mind.
Wait maybe?!?
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CU Medallion [56105]
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Yahweh's an unreliable narrator.***
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Mar 1, 2024, 9:57 AM
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:17 AM
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A good troll is worth a point.
This is two old guys playing their millionth checkers game. Make two moves, start over, make two different moves, start over. Seen 'em all, know where it ends, no sense going through it again. What they need is a new starting point.
Why did he create Satan?
He didn't create a rebelled Satan. Satan chose that.
But if God knows all things, He's responsible.
That is a constrict of time, so foreknowledge is a concept limited to humans.
But if God knows all things ...
No one will agree to let the matter stand at, "If time is irrelevant to God, the question is irrelevant, and if time is relevant to God, He is comfortable creating evil." The board could have been reset after "Why did He ...". Need a question not discussed 4000 years ago.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
Mar 1, 2024, 10:23 AM
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>So, if you want to do something, think up a question someone didnt ask 4000 years ago.
Or, hear me out, ask whatever you want. Last I checked, you weren't a moderator of P&R. Maybe skip the questions you've already heard.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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I know you want to be heard.
Mar 1, 2024, 10:42 AM
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Thank you.
Dont forget to let Roz stamp your ticket.
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Commissioner [980]
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It's almost as if i'm posting in a forum
Mar 1, 2024, 10:55 AM
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I know you aren't too old to understand how they work, they've been around a while.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: It's almost as if i'm posting in a forum
Mar 1, 2024, 11:05 AM
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Ha, yes, guys my age invented them. Good observation. Which is why I very much do know how they work. Which is why our sessions are limited to 50 minutes.
Can discuss this next time, or any other feelings you have.
I see Roz stamped your ticket. Good.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: It's almost as if i'm posting in a forum
Mar 1, 2024, 11:10 AM
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>Which is why I very much do know how they work
You, sure?
You seem to like to moderate them
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CU Medallion [58431]
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It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable.
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:43 AM
[ in reply to You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that. ] |
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Even if time is a human construct, or only exists or has meaning in this earthly existence, or is otherwise irrelevant to God, we still have the existence of a devil and evil, which growing up in the Baptist church, I was taught that God was opposed to both. If he is all-powerful, as I was taught, then nothing exists without his consent, and he doesn't have to consent to anything. The two things can't be reconciled, inside or outside the dimension of time.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable.
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Mar 1, 2024, 12:35 PM
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Right. Unless I misunderstand your thoughts - when has that ever happened - you see God as incapable of allowing bad decisions (or evil, etc, however one words it), if he has the ability to prevent or undo them. Therefore evil's existence means He doesn't have the compassion or ability required to eliminate them.
I think you would agree this means that however one defines love/compassion/etc, it means a person with such ability would exercise it in that manner, to not allow evil. That is perfectly fine.
Where we differ, if all I said above reflects what you are saying, is that I do not see love/compassion defined that way. I am actually somewhat opposite of that.
So, let's say we both agree God exists. We are probably not disagreeing about anything. You say God doesn't have the ability to stop evil because love would require Him to do so, and I say love is defined another way. If love exists because He exists (He created everything), I think we are describing the same God doing the same thing. Whether he cant eliminate evil, or love requires him to allow it, we're assigning the same attributes to the same God, it seems to me.
Where we would depart is if one uses that idea to say God doesn't exist. Making that case requires one to say God would have to behave a certain way - and since he doesn't, he doesn't exist - and that requires one to define time, love and ability in one's chosen way. To that person I would have to say, "I dont agree with those definitions of those terms." We then either agree that we simply start from two different places, or we decide to discuss what those terms really mean.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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It's not nearly that complicated.
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Mar 1, 2024, 1:11 PM
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If we start with the premise that God is all-powerful, then evil and the devil can only exist if he chooses to allow it, and there would be no reason for him to allow it if he didn't want to.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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And that's why it's at least a little complicated, imo.
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Mar 1, 2024, 1:40 PM
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Your statement is simple enough, but in the middle of it is "...there would be no reason...". I was discussing why that may not be the case. You see no reason. I see very good reasons. But are we disagreeing, and if so, about what? Only way to know is to at least acknowledge what those reasons might be.
If we want complicated, imagine discussing those. Does love/compassion require him to disallow evil if he can do so? Cant answer that one quickly, imo.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: And that's why it's at least a little complicated, imo.
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Mar 1, 2024, 1:59 PM
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>I see very good reasons.
Can you give me an example of the very good reasons he would allow evil to exist?
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CU Medallion [58431]
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I think it's important to qualify that, with "what are some very good reasons
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Mar 1, 2024, 2:42 PM
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God would allow evil to exist, given that we have already established that doing so would be totally unnecessary, since this is all based on the premise that he is all-powerful?."
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: I think it's important to qualify that, with "what are some very good reasons
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Mar 1, 2024, 2:49 PM
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There is only one way I've seen, and that's why CU did: "is that I do not see love/compassion defined that way"
You literally have to redefine what we call love/compassion to come up with "good" reasons.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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If we are going to start redefining common words so they can fit a
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Mar 1, 2024, 2:52 PM
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preexisting belief or narrative, then we are in big trouble.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: If we are going to start redefining common words so they can fit a
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Mar 1, 2024, 3:13 PM
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Again, CU already stated, and I quote: "I free admit I start with the resurrection".
So pre-existing belief and redefining terms is the only way to get this to make sense.
your succinct way to put it is clear and only requires twisting it in knots if you want to make it conform to the Bible
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: I think it's important to qualify that, with "what are some very good reasons
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Mar 1, 2024, 3:35 PM
[ in reply to I think it's important to qualify that, with "what are some very good reasons ] |
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One example: it is very possible that the highest expression of love, from its purest definition, is to grant someone the ability to not only not return it, but to walk away, with whatever consequences that causes everyone. Many people do define it that way. Maybe many do not. Maybe you do not. Either way, that is not at all "redefining" it.
If two people look at love/compassion differently, that creates the difference we are discussing regarding one's view of God. Some people do define it in such a way as to exclude God's existence (because we obviously can make those decisions with harmful consequences). But there is no 'redefining' occurring.
It is very okay to say, "We are starting at two different points, two different definitions". But if you instead say, "You are redefining it", that is simply saying, "I am right." If you're going to do that, just start there. Say you are right, and lets forget it.
But I don't think that is who you are or what you want to do.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: I think it's important to qualify that, with "what are some very good reasons
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Mar 1, 2024, 3:52 PM
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>it is very possible that the highest expression of love, from its purest definition, is to grant someone the ability to not only not return it, but to walk away, with whatever consequences that causes everyone
This completely skirts around the major issue that, if there are consequences (especially negative ones) of walking away from God, they were put in place by God. He created everything including those consequences.
At that point, it's coercion, not a free loving choice. "Walk away from me and X will happen". Who put "X" in place?
Real love doesn't look like that. A father, watching their child walk away from them, wouldn't hesitate to grab their arm before they fell over the ledge, no matter what their child thinks of them. A father wouldn't setup the ledge in the first place if they had that power.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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If walking away from me meant eternity burning in hell, then allowing
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Mar 1, 2024, 4:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think it's important to qualify that, with "what are some very good reasons ] |
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someone to do that would not fit any definition of love I can imagine, especially when that hell is a totally unnecessary part of the existence I created, and serves no purpose but to make people suffer when they do walk away from me..
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Re: If walking away from me meant eternity burning in hell, then allowing
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Mar 2, 2024, 2:48 PM
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I'd love to hear a cogent response to this. Especially one that doesn't reduce to "might is right".
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Re: Why would God allow something to exist if he didn't want it to exist?
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Mar 1, 2024, 3:48 PM
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Maybe that is where we are getting off track. I do not think it is safe to say that at all.
I allow lots of things to exist that I don't want to exist, and could disallow if I chose. Not wanting something to exist, and allowing something to exist, can occur simultaneously, regardless of love, ability, etc.
You could then say, "Well, that means you actually want them to exist." No, what I want to exist is something greater than that negative thing. I want my child to experience her independence, and from that independence to love me, more than I want her to not (insert harmful behavior). No, I don't want that thing to exist. But no, I wouldn't stop it if I could.
What I might do, if I could, is fix whatever is in her that is causing her to make that decision. And even then I would not take away her independence. But I can't do any of that. And then we're talking about the Gospel.
If you don't think that is the case, fine. That is simply where we disagree.
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Re: Why would God allow something to exist if he didn't want it to exist?
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Mar 1, 2024, 3:57 PM
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>No, I don't want that thing to exist. But no, I wouldn't stop it if I could.
They're absolutely behaviors you would stop your daughter from doing if you could. If you were in the room with her, and she was about to inject fentanyl, there is 0% chance you aren't doing everything you could to stop that needle from going in her. And yet, if God exists, he allows that exact scenario to happen every single day.
You are using examples of things we aren't talking about. Of course there are some things you can let slide. We are talking about evil things that God allows.
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I appreciate you hanging in there with me, as I know this can seem futile
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Mar 1, 2024, 4:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why would God allow something to exist if he didn't want it to exist? ] |
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and be exhausting. You know I accept our differences and respect your opinions.
Here's where I have a problem with your analogy. We allow our children to make mistakes so they can learn; even if it hurts or causes some pain, and as long as it isn't too dangerous or too painful, as some pain is inevitable and essential to the learning process. But we would prefer that our children learn without the pain and suffering, and if we could fix it so that they could learn just as good that way, then what would be the point in allowing them to experience unnecessary pain and suffering?
The only thing that makes any sense to me is that God wants everything to exist as it is, including sin and the devil and evil and pain and suffering. I am just trying to understand why, and "because God wants us to have free will" or "God wants us to experience the bad so we can appreciate the good" fail to do it. I have a theory, but those ain't it, and it ain't biblical.
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Re: I appreciate you hanging in there with me, as I know this can seem futile
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Mar 2, 2024, 12:48 AM
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I agree the analogy is not universally applicable: I had hoped it would be seen in principle, not as literal. To literally apply that analogy to God's relationship with us, we cant look at our actions today. My analogy instead applies to the Fall, and what we did there, and where that has led us to today. Had we never rebelled, the inflammatory 'needle in her arm' would not be happening, so the question is not about that but whether God would allow us to choose the independence that leads to it. I think love requires him to. You do not. I get that.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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It's not just what I think, it's a matter of fact.
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Mar 2, 2024, 11:00 AM
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By definition, an all-powerful God is bound by no requirements. He is either all-powerful, meaning capable of absolutely anything, or he is not. If you want to claim that he is not all-powerful and does have some restrictions due to his nature, which it sounds like you are implying but don't want to say it, then that's fine.
One could make the argument that God is restricted by his own nature, and that may be, but that would mean there are things he is not capable of, which means he is not all-powerful. If God is all-powerful, then he is capable of evil, but chooses not to be.
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Re: It's not just what I think, it's a matter of fact.
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Mar 2, 2024, 1:54 PM
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Sure. I had thought that in the imperfect analogy of we allowing children to do things we do not like and could stop, that the analogy being about choice was understood. If not, thank you for clearing that up. I do not see that choice as addressing omnipotence. Actually, if he can do anything, he can do that. If you do, no worries.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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I understood the analogy to be about how we can't stop our children from making
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Mar 2, 2024, 3:16 PM
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bad choices and making painful mistakes, nor should want to, since they learn and grow from it. I thought the analogy was that God allows us to have those choices and feel some pain for the same reasons. I thought I showed why that was a bad analogy that doesn't hold up. So, I'm not sure what you are getting at.
I understand that having the ability to make choices plays a role in both cases, but it's unavoidable in one of those cases (parents/children) and it's a part of our reality we can't change, and we use the pain associated with bad choices to learn and grow. However, in the other case, God has supposedly given us the ability to choose an eternity in hell, which is totally unnecessary if the purpose of free will is to help us learn and grow, or fully feel or appreciate God's love.
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Re: I understood the analogy to be about how we can't stop our children from making
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Mar 2, 2024, 4:51 PM
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All that is fine. You seemed to say in your post at the top of the forum page that you do not consider any of the record of God's interaction with man reliable, and that is of course your right. No worries from me. However, that does mean you are assessing what you believe God should be, against what He is or isnt, solely from your ethic of what is good and bad, right and wrong.
Even from that starting point, using no objective starting point, we seem to disagree on whether an able and compassionate God can allow hardships and bad choices. If the starting point is purely individual and subjective, we have to leave each other to our conclusions. There is no need to resolve a disagreement.
What is left is whether there is any objective starting point. You have made your position very clear on that. While I disagree, no argument from me.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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I merely stated that we don't have any original texts, only copies of copies
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Mar 2, 2024, 9:34 PM
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of copies, which we know contain errors, ommissions, changes, and revisions, and that what we now call The Bible has only existed for a relatively short time. That does not in any way invalidate my argument here, and has nothing to do with the following.
My only argument here is that the narrative I was given in the Southern Baptist church growing up, and had reinforced for years from many different pastors and theologians and denominations, that an all powerful God created an existence that includes the devil and evil and many other things he despises all of which makes him both angry and sad, and which he is in constant struggle with ... is nonsensical, self-contradicting, and doesn't hold up to basic logic.
We are stuck in the following loop:
Me: If God were all-powerful, why does he allow so many things he doesn't like?
Others: He has to.
Me: But if God is all-powerful, he doesn't have to do anything.
Others: How else could he do it?
Me: I don't know, and it doesn't matter. If he's all powerful, he could.
Others: God allows evil and the devil for a reason.
Me: Why?
Others: He has to, How else could he do it?
Me: I've already explained this.
Others: You don't believe in the Bible, or that an able and compassionate God could allow hardships and bad choices.
Me, right now: No, he certainly can if he's all-powerful, but if he does, he does so only because he wants to, not because he has to. Everything that exists does so because God has chosen to allow it to exist, not because he has to in order to produce some desired result. If evil exists, it can only be because God has decided he wants it to exist, not becase he needs it so that we can understand and appreciate his love, or not because he (or we) need it for any reason. If we need it, it's because God created us so that we need it, which means he wants it. Now I wait on another reason why God doesn't want evil, but he has to allow it.
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CU Medallion [58431]
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And ...
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Mar 2, 2024, 9:43 PM
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However, that does mean you are assessing what you believe God should be, against what He is or isnt, solely from your ethic of what is good and bad, right and wrong.
I am assesing claims others have made about God, using my experience, feelings, and ability to think (or lack thereof) to do so, and that is my starting point.
And I am totally fine if we disagree.
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Re: It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable.
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Mar 1, 2024, 1:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable. ] |
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I really appreciate your posts. Especially when these threads kinda go sideways.
Defining your terms. I think that's it really. As another post points out, you can't have one without the other. I believe that to mean you can't "describe" one without the other. For instance, the colors black and white have no meaning without referencing the other. The same could be said about good and evil. However, they way in which we would define those could only be in earthly terms. Or better, societal terms. Which is what I understand Tiggity was getting at with normalization. But our culture has been hard at work in recent to times to de-define "normal". Our own definitions of good and evil are still there though whether or not we think something is "normal".
These are our own judgements and definitions as we currently see them. I can't quote chapter and verse but I don't think there's anything biblical about the use of fossil fuels. Which some would argue is evil.
I cannot look at the concept of good and evil (as I or anyone else) defines it as justification that God either does or does not exist. Bad things happen to good people. And good things happen to bad people. What's the definition of good and bad here? It's all from our limited perspective.
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Re: It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable.
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Mar 1, 2024, 1:57 PM
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The problem is that people will ascribe things they would otherwise call evil as "good" when god does it.
In no other case would you call genocide good, got did that several times. That included and sometimes specifically called out children. Christians will say, well no, god is holy so it's ok as if that somehow makes it ok. Look, if Hilter genocided your family or God did, your experience is the same. Innocent kids were still murdered.
If you are a parent, think of it this way. You tell your child, I love you but there is a cliff you are running towards and if you don't stop, you'll fall off of it and die.
Now, let's say that kid flips you the bird, tells you they hate you and run headlong towards the cliff. However, you are more powerful than this kid and you have button that puts up a safety net to prevent the kid from actually falling.
Now, I'm 99.9% sure you would agree that not pushing that button would make you a psycopath and yet that is what God supposedly does every day. Just let's people go to hell.
Does this mean God isn't real? Of course not. Maybe he is and really does just let evil stuff happen. But then we don't have a good god do we.
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Re: It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable.
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Mar 1, 2024, 2:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable. ] |
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Thank you.
Here is going sideways: I noticed your comment about de-defining normal, so here is a barely tangent response. MissTulsa and I got a little sideways a few years back, found ourselves going in opposite ways. Went to a professional to talk it through. "I'm Frasier Crane, and I'm listening." One day were discussing some sort of behavior that seemed way out of whack, and the pro said, "Normal is just a setting on the washing machine."
That stopped the session. No way was I going to buy that, and MissTulsa didn't want to either. We did acknowledge the point that "what everybody does" is a poor and dangerous definition of right. Start with what you know, and build from there: you don't start with what everybody thinks is right. Got it. But the pro meant more than that, and that's where de-defining normal gets us off track, imo.
Psychology is more empirical than we think, and there is a lot of testing to show that people behave in certain ways, cross culture, economics, geography, etc. For instance, men are more aggressive, and more things oriented, while women are more agreeable, and more people oriented. The venn diagrams on those types of things mostly overlap, but the trends are there, at the extremes you get almost all men or almost all women (almost all prisoners are men). So, when a man or woman is on the opposite extreme, where its almost all the opposite sex, it is very reasonable to say "This is not normal." It might be very okay, but we have to recognize it is not normal, so one can ask, "Am I really happy here, or is something causing this?" Find the answer to that, and move on, then without regard to what is normal. When out of normal, something important is happening that has to be understood, imo. It might be the best thing ever. Or maybe not.
I agree with your point that de-defining normal as a societal value is not a good thing. Weaponizing normal isn't good either, but it is worse to react by saying it doesn't exist. In our case, we wanted to find truth, something that would last, not 'our truth' that would last until the next time we got our feelings hurt.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable.
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Mar 1, 2024, 2:40 PM
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I keep thinking about the fiends I have that have spent time in Afghanistan. One said there are customs and/or a culture there that Americans would never understand. For one, they are tribal. One tribe would never consider a Pashtu their leader because they don't believe the Pashtu to be human. In another instance where one member of a tribe killed a member of another tribe, the offending tribe was to offer up a member to be killed as settlement. In our efforts to "help" the Afghan people the US built a series of townhouse (condos, if you will) in Kabul. The only problem with that expenditure was that the tribe we built them for is nomadic. They're never there! So they rented them back to us when diplomats or other State Department officials were in Kabul. Crazy right? But all perfectly "normal" to them. Always reminds me of the line from Full Metal Jacket, "Inside every Vietnamese is an American waiting to get out". But isn't that the way we feel when exposed to a different "normal"? They're just like us, they just don't know it yet.
There are other stories from there, some far too graphic for this. Point being, our normal isn't everyone else's.
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Re: It's a great question, but I can see why it makes some people uncomfortable.
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Mar 1, 2024, 2:59 PM
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Yes. While world travel is overrated ("What's the use of distant travel, if only to discover, you're homeless in your heart" -- Basia, "Yearning"), what you describe is something that has to be experienced. There are wild differences in culture, yet under those differences there is a core that is amazingly the same. A Vietnamese is not a covered over American. But under those veneers they are the same.
We were in one place that had the eye-for-eye retribution you mentioned. Kill someone in a car accident, and the entire extended family could come after you: a lot of homage and money was paid to prevent an unpleasant occurrence. And this is not a backward place at all, is a very fun and modern place to be. So, at first I thought it was very weird, barbaric, and not a little bit intimidating. But I found out that the cause of it was an historical lack of a civil court system. If you get cheated, you're sort of on your own. Contract law, etc, was weak. So, culturally, they handled it another way. In some ways, it was better. While you didn't have legal recourse, if you checked around you could figure out who had great standing, and if they had it they were under tremendous family pressure to keep it. Hired one of those guys to retile our floor, but I didn't ask directly: I have no family weight. I was instead advised to have a local friend, one who was well connected, to ask on my behalf. A large family asking another large family to do the work. You could forget about it: it would be right. And it was.
But what made them tick were the same things as any of us. Even spoke about them in the same way.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
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Mar 2, 2024, 9:32 AM
[ in reply to You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that. ] |
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“ Need a question not discussed 4000 years ago.”
CUintulsa®, you make this argument a lot, but the flaw with it is that new information is now available to the masses. We don’t have to just take our daddy’s word for it anymore.
To act like these tough questions have been cleared up and that the biblical worldview is exonerated from them is wishful thinking and border line delusional.
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
Mar 2, 2024, 9:58 AM
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Fair enough, if you can provide insight into this:
What new information do you have related to the millennia old question of whether a good and able God could allow evil? Bullet points, narrative, whatever. What do we know about this that they didn't?
I do not act like the issue "has been cleared up". Here we both are; clearly it has not. What I act like is that the answer has been provided for millennia for anyone not acting like he's come up with anything new. You should look again at my predicted 5 line, 35 word, conversation. (One very helpful poster called me a 'moderator' for predicting that outcome.) You will notice that this is exactly the conversation that has taken place, in about 5000 words, with not a single thing added not known by Claudius walking behind his plow.
One would think these new things would have been brought up, maybe inspiring a different conversation. None so far.
But you could be right. What new thing has informed that question?
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
Mar 2, 2024, 10:29 AM
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>I do not act like the issue "has been cleared up". Here we both are; clearly it has not.
>What I act like is that the answer has been provided for millennia for anyone not acting like he's come up with anything new.
Maybe I'm misreading these, but how are these statements not contradictory.
They "aren't cleared up" and yet, "the answer has been provided for millennia"?
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
Mar 2, 2024, 10:46 AM
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No contradiction. I qualified to whom the answer is known.
Is today contradiction day? 
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
Mar 2, 2024, 10:58 AM
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Got it. I makes sense when read that way
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
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Mar 2, 2024, 11:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that. ] |
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Echos brings up things all the time like the fossil record and DNA evidence. Scientific discoveries that don't answer the question directly, but help point towards what is logical to believe.
For instance, 4000 years ago they didn't know why it rained, or why it didn't. So they attributed this to their version of god. When it rained and the crops grew they must have done something to please god. When there was a drought and it lead to famine, the gods must be mad at us.
As new information comes to light and technology advances, the premise changes and our conclusions become more informed  . Magic sky daddy doesn't have to be responsible for everything anymore.
So based on the information we have, maybe there is no such thing as objective good and evil, so the question becomes irrelevant. One human being killing another is no different than a lion tearing into a zebra. We are alone and it's survival of the fittest.
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
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Mar 2, 2024, 2:06 PM
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And we are thankful for being informed about dna. Where would we be without learning about it on tnet? What you need to explain is what dna, as an example, has to do with understanding how a good and able God allows evil. You, who knows about dna, will reach a more informed conclusion about that specific question than the philosopher Locke in 1700? Explain that.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
Mar 2, 2024, 2:14 PM
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We're on topic.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: You did that just for fun. Fine. It worked. Upvote for that.
Mar 2, 2024, 2:40 PM
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carry on, back to moderating
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CU Medallion [60043]
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You spend more time worried that
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:36 AM
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meemaw and pappaw taught you was wrong than if you just had faith.
I know this is a troll thread but you seriously have some deep turmoil about believing or not. I think you know the true answer.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: You spend more time worried that
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Mar 1, 2024, 10:42 AM
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So, when we go over to the Politics board, and a red trolls a blue, does he have some inner turmoil about actually being a blue? or vice-a-versa? Of course not, you are just arguing with people you disagree with.
>I think you know the true answer.
I think this reasoning is hilarious on the P&R board. Imagine this was a flat earther forum, do you think the people debating them actually have inner turmoil about it being true? I think a flat earther might thing that, sure, but not the person debating them lol.
We are not concerned that your religion is true more than you are concerned that the mormon's are actually correct. If you were debating a mormon, you are saying that your only reason is becuase you think you might be mormon?
>meemaw and pappaw taught you was wrong than if you just had faith.
This can be said for any religion, it's useless for decerning the truth
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: You spend more time worried that
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Mar 2, 2024, 12:44 PM
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>meemaw and pappaw taught you was wrong than if you just had faith.
"This can be said for any religion, it's useless for decerning the truth"
Yea I thought that was an odd statement.
So we should just blindly accept what our family teaches us?
That's a scary thing to believe.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: You spend more time worried that
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Mar 2, 2024, 1:39 PM
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Bottom line is, if God is real and wants a relationship, it wouldn’t require faith to believe he exists.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
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The concept of the devil isn't wild to me.
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Mar 4, 2024, 10:42 AM
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Who among us hasn't rebelled against authority? Don't lie.
Fact is, most of us usurped our parents authority many times before we were 10 y/o. By the time we were growing fur in strange places we considered ourselves men and able to handle the authority over our lives granted by adulthood.
Who likes anyone telling them how to run their house, handle their children or even tell them how to do their jobs?
Swing and a miss. Strike one but at least you got the bat off your shoulder.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: The concept of the devil isn't wild to me.
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Mar 4, 2024, 11:28 AM
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>Swing and a miss. Strike one but at least you got the bat off your shoulder.
I mean, if you hadn't, yet again, miss the forest for the trees with the analogy.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95428
Joined: 12/25/09
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An objective man can recognize that God and Lucifer had a family relationship.
Mar 4, 2024, 5:10 PM
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If you overlook that then you've lost context to their difference.
Heaven was/is a 'My house, My rules,' type home. You moved out, so did the devil.
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Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
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Re: An objective man can recognize that God and Lucifer had a family relationship.
Mar 4, 2024, 7:53 PM
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>An objective man can recognize that God and Lucifer had a family relationship.
Objective: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind
>Heaven was/is a 'My house, My rules,' type home. You moved out, so did the devil.
So I've moved out of a house I've never seen or have any idea exists? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense, my friend.
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Oculus Spirit [93681]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95428
Joined: 12/25/09
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Dismiss the emotion and appreciate what I said.
Mar 6, 2024, 11:24 AM
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I presented a family situation where the son, Lucifer, moved out of The Father's house. A reasonable man would put that in context to his relationship with his father.
Q: Do you or did you ever have a father? If so do you still live in his basement or did you move out?
and you wonder why I so often ignore you?
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Commissioner [980]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1415
Joined: 11/15/23
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Re: Dismiss the emotion and appreciate what I said.
Mar 6, 2024, 11:28 AM
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>Dismiss the emotion and appreciate what I said.
Maybe some projection going on there? Where did you sense emotion coming into play, i was just pointing out the obvious.
> Q: Do you or did you ever have a father? If so do you still live in his basement or did you move out?
Lol, there it is, the true ct88, can't have a normal conversation once people disagree.
>and you wonder why I so often ignore you?
The better question is: do I care?
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