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Orange Immortal [64356]
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What is most important to you?
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Apr 1, 2025, 9:08 AM
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Defending your current beliefs? Or, seeking truth, open to the idea that your current beliefs may be wrong or incomplete?
Not that one can't do both, but usually I think one or the other is the starting point.
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Re: What is most important to you?
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Apr 1, 2025, 9:13 AM
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I’m most interested in finding where your thoughts and beliefs are wrong/incomplete.
Signed-
P&R bored
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Ring of Honor [21768]
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Is it OK to start from a position of being a sarcastic smart a$$?
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Apr 1, 2025, 9:16 AM
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And then take the road less traveled?
Seriously I take the concept of triangulate information from legitimate sources as a starting point.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: What is most important to you?
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Apr 1, 2025, 10:57 AM
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That's a great question.
Investment in beliefs is human nature. Who's gonna go in half-axed, you know?
I have much more respect for a devoted Christian, or Muslim, or whatever, than a 'casual' believer. Investment shows a seriousness, and a devotion, and a discipline to the concepts and following them. It shows a curiosity, and an effort to 'get it right.' It's an indication that it is meaningful to someone. Like the difference between a craftsman and someone just going through the motions.
When I traveled in the Mid-East I was blown away by the degree to which various devotees followed their religions. Granted, it comes down to the individual, but as examples, in Israel the elevators run non-stop on the Sabbath. The whole society is geared to "no work" on Saturday. So, instead of having to 'work' by pushing a button, the elevators are set to just run up and down all day, like an escalator with timed pauses...you just step on, and step off, when the elevator stops. That's walking the walk of "no work."
In Egypt, no matter what we were doing, prayer call took precedence with our guide. We were having a nice meal and right in the middle of the meal, in the restaurant, with no notice, he just gets up, walks behind a nearby screen panel, lays out his mat, drops to his knees, and starts praying. We're all looking around at the table like "Where did he go? Is this normal?" After a few minutes, the guy gets up, rolls his mat, comes back to the table and starts eating again, without a word. Just a completely seamless integration of his worship into daily life. For him prayer took precedence even over eating. That's not casual.
For me, I've let go of both ends of the spectrum at various times. I was a pretty serious Christian...read my Bible every day, attended church regularly, towed the line morally, etc. I'm a straight-edge to this day. And I remember lying in my bed at one point, staring at the ceiling, contemplating God, fighting off doubts, and thinking, "What if this isn't it?" That was really hard.
As hard as it was, it was only second to giving up Atheism. Because once you deny God, and once you deny the lack of God, where do you go next? Talk about being anchorless and without a rudder. Then you're just resigned to a sort of purgatory of realizing there's never going to be a definitive answer. And for someone who loves the comfort of definite answers and checking off boxes as 'done,' that's tough.
But I'm still a truth seeker, though truth may not be the black and white we think it is. I don't know of anyone who doesn't see mystery in the world. We're just surrounded by it. Who isn't awed looking at the sky on a clear dark night? Or seeing a newborn child? Or looking into a microscope at a single cell? If you're not awed at the world around us then you're not paying attention.
But what I realized, over time, was that what I gave up all those years ago was a particular 'description' of God. Not the complete idea of God, as a great unknown. And that set me off on the trail of finding all the descriptions of God I could find, and how they are the same, and how they are different, and why they are the way they are. Which is where I'm at now.
So the only belief I really have to defend right now is that I'm inadequate to understand it all. Which is pretty easy to do, if not slightly depressing, lol. I was much surer of things as a younger man. I was certain I was right when I was a Christian, and I was certain I was right when I was an Atheist. And now I'm neither, and certain of nothing really.
Maybe Forrest was onto something after all
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [107253]
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Always seek the truth. Relativity is a friend, not an enemy.
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Apr 1, 2025, 11:23 AM
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I've always though people are just the sum of their personal experiences. As such, different people have different experiences. As such, to find truth, you have to be open to all possibilities.
The world does not have to be (isn't in fact) black or white, or one way or another. Two competing views can both be true, and both can be false, or one can be true and the other false.
As an investigator by trade, I always seek truth, no matter if I like or dislike the answer. The key to seeking truth is not to listen to one argument, and then a counterargument. They can both be lies. Seek a third party, a disinterested party, someone foreign to the issue, and then seek their opinion. You will find truth flows easiest from those with no opinion, nor a dog in the fight, skin in the game, or a vested interest.
This is why I make it a point, ESPECIALLY TODAY, to listen, read, and consume international news. When covid hit, I noticed disinformation coming from all over the place in domestic news services. It became political as everything is, so I paid closest attention to covid news in places NOT called the United States. Places where there are no democrats, no republicans, and people could care less about US politics. And there I found the truth.
It is important to listen to dems and pubs differing opinions on just about every single issue. But then it's JUST as important to seek input from someone who has no dog in the political or ideological fight. Someone fighting a completely different fight maybe, but from them you will get a better perspective on yourself.
Much as Tocqueville and his writings were perhaps some of the most informed critiques of the early American colonists and their politics, so too must we seek outside input, to better understand ourselves if nothing else.
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Game Changer [1699]
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Re: What is most important to you?
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Apr 1, 2025, 1:16 PM
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OK I'll bite.
First of all, since they are MY beliefs, I don't feel the need to defend them. "Seeking", I don't think can be a starting point. The starting point for the "seeker" in this case would be someone that doesn't accept what they have been told is the "truth". And once on that path, would there ever be an end to it?
Would they ever become the defender?
But I believe we must all be seekers in some sense. If we stop seeking, are we admitting to ourselves that we have all this figured out? There's no way I would allow myself that hubris (if I used that word correctly). There's plenty that doesn't make sense. And plenty more that I'll never have an answer for. Admitting that my beliefs are incomplete is the easy part. Wrong? Says who?
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: What is most important to you?
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Apr 1, 2025, 1:39 PM
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Good question. I think both are necessary. In the most extreme example, our courts use the adversarial process to illuminate truth to an impartial jury. If the jury is impartial, the debate is vital. My understanding is that the rules of evidence protect the objectivity and rationality of the debate.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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If a person truly has an open mind and considers the possibility that they
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Apr 1, 2025, 10:36 PM
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may have faith but don't actually know, but want to learn and know as much as they can, then I think debates and discussions like we have in here are great opportunities to illuminate, as you put it, and sharpen one's thinking and understanding.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: What is most important to you?
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:11 PM
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I think I'm at a point where I've realized that the truth may not even matter, and is relative anyway. We will all leave this world one day, and nobody knows for sure what is on the other side.
Religious and political people like to throw that term out a lot, as if there is stone cold evidence that their way is the best or their beliefs are "true".
For an alcoholic who turns to christianity, how can one argue against the truth that his life was changed and it is "true" to him? You won't find me telling him he's wrong.
When someone tells me this event happened or will happen because MY religious text says so, or that YOU should act or believe what I say is true, that's where I have a problem.
Many a life has been changed by Islam, Hinduism, Buddism...the list goes on and on. So in that sense they are all true.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Exactly. Nobody knows. Nobody can know (as far as I know, LOL!),
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Apr 1, 2025, 3:47 PM
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Believing something with all of one's heart, soul, and mind does not make it so. No one can know if everything that is written in the bible is true. I totally respect pretty much anyone's personal beliefs when it comes to religion and spiritualty. That does not mean that I accept or agree with those beliefs, however, nor should I be expected to.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Exactly. Nobody knows. Nobody can know (as far as I know, LOL!),
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Apr 1, 2025, 5:10 PM
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I actually like some parts of religion. I like the music. I like the fellowship. Who doesn't love three helpings of fried chicken and potato salad at the homecoming lunch?
But the way pastors and bible beaters make the claims that they do...
"Jesus is coming back you better do something before it's too late!!"
As if life is like a game of hot potato.
"I know because I know that I know!!"
"The bible says it so it's true!!"
If people just loved and took care of each other and put all the doctrine and theology to the side, man I could really get down with it.
And the sad thing is that A LOT of christians are like that, but they are drowned out by the zealots.The ones who came along and said "the bible is a sword". Something Jesus never endorsed.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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Seeking the truth is my top priority.
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Apr 2, 2025, 6:43 AM
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John 14:
"1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...."
emphasis mine
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
A young monk once asked one the masters how to find God. The master led him to the river and invited him into the water. After walking into the water about waist deep the master forcefully grabbed the young man and plunged his head beneath the water.
After holding him there for over half a minute he raised the young one out of the water and said, 'When you want for God like you wanted for that next breath of air you will find Him.
I do not read the Bible to support what I believe. I read it daily to discover what God wants me to know.
If you'd like to see my beliefs altered to fit yours, I recommend you talk to my God and tell Him exactly what you'd like for me to believe. If you convince Him that I'm not truly understanding who He is, what He is and how He wants me to believe I'm positive He will teach me to believe as you like.
I can also add that since I was born again 54 years ago what I believed hasn't undergone fundamental changes but the depth of God's love and care for me has turned into micromanagement. That's the most wonderful thing you can imagine.
My Holy Father treats me like I'm His only child, like I'm a 2 yr old who is rambunctious and into everything. One who can't sit still but climbs curtains and is constantly hungry and never quite makes it to the commode in time. He feeds me constantly, dresses me in fine clothes which I continue to tarnish with ketchup and jelly.
He teaches my classes, scrubs me clean constantly and I sit in His lap to rest when I'm tired. I love Him because of His love for me. I will believe whatever He says because I trust Him with my eternal soul.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Your faith is strong, 88. I certainly respect that.
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Apr 2, 2025, 9:30 AM
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I like the way Jesus, in the book of John, clearly differentiates himself from the father, and describes how he is in the father, and the father is in him, and while they are different entities, they are in each other, and when you know Jesus, you know God. John is the most spiritual and mystical of the gospels, and probably the most interesting to me.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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Re: Your faith is strong, 88. I certainly respect that.
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Apr 2, 2025, 10:17 AM
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Yes sir, John's primary theme was that Jesus was God. Just as in high school English class they taught us to write using a 'say what you're going to say, then support what you said, then close by restating your thesis.
John followed that technique which has become standard in writing.
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"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..."
"14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
I would say that if we're reading anything and not using those opening statements as the central theme of the Book of John we are probably missing something.
BTW: My faith isn't that strong. The opposite of faith is not doubt but worry for worry is the evidence which proves that 'I,' or 'we,' don't trust Him.
The last couple days I've been stressed out about the Spies Hecker paint for my project. Finishmaster quoted it at over a grand for the clearcoat, reducer and activator.
This morning I found it on Ebay for less that $500 and it bears the same labels and product numbers. I haven't borrowed more than a few bucks in over 40 years. I hate debt because I have to pay it back. 
Yes, Mr Obed, the clear comes at that price tag and it's a 5 ltr can.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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We'll have to agree to disagree, and that's normal and I'm fine with it.
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Apr 2, 2025, 11:09 AM
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I don't see anywhere John says "Jesus is God". It really would have been that simple. I see that stuff about "The Word", and we are left to interpret that, once again injecting our own biases and limitations onto scripture. Perhaps more importantly, nowhere in John does Jesus say "I am God". Instead, on may different occassions, Jesus clearly speaks of he and the father being separate; "in" each other, but not the same enitiy.
Still, I totally respect your opinion. I understand why you believe what you believe, and I know you are smart and sincere.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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I can fully understand your position and appreciate your plight.
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Apr 3, 2025, 7:38 AM
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Comprehension of The Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh being equal to God becoming Flesh is possible only via revelation of God's Holy Spirit.
I was raised around Christians and believed what they believed except that I did not believe Jesus was God until God revealed it to me after I gave my life and soul to Him. God's Spirit is the Rosetta Stone. Without His guidance it's impossible to comprehend such mystery.
Now, giving your life is giving about all you have to give. When a man gives his life to save another he is called a hero. My life was a cheap payment for salvation because I had no value to this world. I was a liability, not a credit.
In fact, I what I gave to God had a value of zero; but because of His divine love He considered that taking on the body of flesh and dying on the cross was a fair deal for Him. Such is love, right?
It wasn't a fair deal to me. It was actually unfair for I'm in debt up to my eyeballs to Him; for everyday I realize that God gave His life for me and from my perspective God got the raw end of the deal.
Somehow I prove everyday that God got the raw end of the transaction and what does He do? He says over and over, "I LOVE YOU!" I've spent decades trying to comprehend that love. The Apostle Paul describes it in his letter to the Ephesians in chapter 3:
"14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."
4 dimensional love and Christ dwelling in my heart, that's a lot to chew on. So yeah, I can see how you don't get it. I believe it's possible to get it and that those better than I get it but I wake up in a new world everyday for everyday I sit with God's (written) Word in front of me and everyday I face the same thing: The Love of God.
Every day God slays me with that overwhelming love and raises me with a commission to behave, be honest, be Holy. I fail miserably yet His love, precious love is on full display to my heart and in my life.
I understand you, your a man, I'm a man we have a lot in common. I have nothing in common with God but the blood. He shed it, it saved me. I awoke this morning swearing I'd pay Him back with worship for eternity and realized that's not long enough.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: I can fully understand your position and appreciate your plight.
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Apr 3, 2025, 2:34 PM
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"... is possible only via revelation of God's Holy Spirit." This is likely why John did not feel the need to explain how this is true, only the fact of it:
The Word was with God at the beginning, was God, was the light of mankind, was in the world but was not received, but those who did receive become children of God, the Word became flesh, lived among us, and they saw him. That is as clearly stated as an idea and identity can be.
Both "with" and "was" are presented as true of Jesus at the same time. John did not consider this to need explanation.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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It's gramma school math and common sense.
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Apr 4, 2025, 4:16 AM
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The reflexive property of math says that if A=B and B=C then A=C.
It's also common sense held by even the most dumb among us. I have a bushel of un-shucked corn and you have a quart of good moonshine. I don't have a drop of moonshine and you have no corn left in your cellar because you used it all to make shine.
If we trade then we've determined the two possessions are equal. Now demand and supply bear on the value of both cause you can get a bushel of corn way cheaper than I can get a qt of shine but...no wait. That's exactly how God works.
Somehow He believes that His dying on the Cross was equal to the value of our condemned souls.
Like I said, God got the short end of the stick with me.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Wait - can we apply math and common sense when trying to understand
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Apr 6, 2025, 11:22 AM
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God, or not? Ithought those didn't apply when talking about God. Or can we both apply those things AND not apply them, because GOD? I mean, where does the absurd double-talk stop when trying to justify one's beliefs? If you said
"I can't really make sense of it, or understand it. I admit it makes no sense, but it's just what I believe in my heart" then I totally respect that. But when you tell me that 2+2 can = 7 if we are talking about God, then absolutely any claim made about God must be taken seriously and can't be denied, and I don't think you accept that.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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John stated it clearly, my friend.
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Apr 7, 2025, 4:07 AM
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One can believe what he wants. Opinions of Christ, God and the Holy Spirit are certainly personal and everyone should believe what they want. That's how God made us.
All I was saying is that John chapter one makes it clear that Jesus was God in the flesh of man. That's the very foundation of Christian belief.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Agreed - we are certainly made with the freedom to think and choose.
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Apr 7, 2025, 9:22 AM
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And I have pointed out where Jesus clearly differentiates himself from God, so we'll have to agree to respectfully disagree about that.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: We'll have to agree to disagree, and that's normal and I'm fine with it.
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Apr 3, 2025, 3:05 PM
[ in reply to We'll have to agree to disagree, and that's normal and I'm fine with it. ] |
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Either way you slice it, Jesus is a separate entity from the "Father", which he clearly speaks of as not only separate but better than him...
John 14:28
You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
Mark 10:18
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
The same guy who wrote John 1:1 wrote John 14:28, so they should be interpreted in light of each other.
You've undoubtedly heard some one say "I was just a twinkle in my dads eye back then"...
I believe this is what John was saying at the beginning of his book.
What's interesting is this battle was going on in the first century, and John may have written this passage in response to the Gnostics who he considered heretics.
"According to Irenaeus of Lyon (c. 130–202), a student of Polycarp (c. pre-69–156), John the Apostle wrote these words specifically to refute the teachings of Cerinthus,[5] who both resided and taught at Ephesus, the city John settled in following his return from exile on Patmos.[6] While Cerinthus claimed that the world was made by "a certain Power far separated from ... Almighty God", John, according to Irenaeus, by means of John 1:1-5, presented Almighty God as the Creator – "by His Word." And while Cerinthus made a distinction between the man Jesus and "the Christ from above", who descended on the man Jesus at his baptism, John, according to Irenaeus, presented the pre-existent Word and Jesus Christ as one and the same."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_(Christianity)
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 4, 2025, 10:16 AM
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thought that God the father was separate, and that he was not God. He indisputably differentiates himself from God. At best, it's unclear, and contradictory messages are delivered.
Somebody along the way decided John and his ideas needed to be included in a collection of writings that would be considered "God's word", while competing ideas would not.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 4, 2025, 1:54 PM
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Exactly.
John didn’t sit down and start writing with the intention of writing gods word. In fact he may not have written anything at all. He may have taught the things contained in his book and someone else wrote it down. And then someone else later decided it was gods word like you say.
This is significant and I personally believe modern Christianity has turned their version of the Bible into an idol.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 4, 2025, 4:27 PM
[ in reply to It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus ] |
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First John didnt say it. Now he did, but others excluded other ideas. Pick a landing spot.
If at times Jesus spoke of the Father, and at times spoke of himself as the "I AM", John would describe The Word as both being with God and being God, and becoming flesh and being seen. Conversely, if John spoke of Jesus this way, one would expect to go to the Gospels and find Jesus speaking that way as well. This is what we find.
That alone doesn't mean Jesus even existed: anybody can write anything. But the texts are consistent on this point.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 4, 2025, 8:17 PM
[ in reply to It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus ] |
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>thought that God the father was separate, and that he was not God.
This is a confounding issue. So much so that I have a side project going on it for future posts. So far as I can tell, it seems to be both.
In Matt and Mark in 70ish? AD, Jesus seems rather homely; just a guy (albeit with divine) with a message.
By the time of John in 90ish? AD, he's nothing short of regal.
Now, Matt and John were different guys, maybe with different communities and perspectives, writing in different times. So differences don't surprise me at all.
John seems curiously non-Jewish as well. That is, he has to describe a lot of things a Jew would simply know, like:
"the kind [of vase0]used by the Jews for ceremonial washing"
and
(For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)
Bottom line is, I think if one parses closely enough, we can really get down to what Jesus thought, and what he perceived his mission as...in his own mind.
Which may have been different than what his Apostles, including Paul, thought.
After all, several times they said "This is hard teaching," or something similar.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 4, 2025, 8:43 PM
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This seems to be why a word was developed - Trinity - to describe God as three. What is a Trinity, exactly? A human can't describe that. If we could, we wouldn't need the word. Endless argument about whether Jesus said he was separate from the Father, or said he was Yahweh (I AM), when he actually said both, seem to be attempts to demand that God and Jesus be describable and understandable in human terms in all aspects of their nature. By definition, that cant be. Not understanding how a Trinity exists is not evidence that it doesn't.
Again, the mere fact that Jesus, as well as John, Paul, James and Peter, describe Jesus as both man and God does not prove it to be. But that is what they said.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 4, 2025, 11:09 PM
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Endless argument about whether Jesus said he was separate from the Father, or said he was Yahweh (I AM), when he actually said both, seem to be attempts to demand that God and Jesus be describable and understandable in human terms in all aspects of their nature.
I don't believe Jesus ever claimed to be both God and not God. I believe it's different people with different perspectives, understandings, and agendas telling stories about Jesus. I don't buy the explanation that we can't rule out any claim made about God/Jesus because God and Jesus aren't understandable in human terms. I definitely believe that fully understanding or comprehending God is far beyond our ability as humans; there is plenty we will never, ever know or begin to understand. While I can't totally rule out the possibility that Jesus is both God and not God (not both God and man, which is different), using reason, common sense, and the feelings in my heart and gut, I think it's nonsense. I think claiming otherwise is a way to make sense of the nonsensical in order to sustain a committed belief.
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Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 6, 2025, 5:37 AM
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What a person understands is not the issue. We are discussing what Jesus said about himself. The only way to say Jesus did not (1) claim to be God on earth and (2) also claim to be the Son of the Father, is to look at statements He made saying both, and while reqding them say, "Ne is not saying that." The Sanhedrin had no problem understanding Him on that point, and trying Him for it.
That does not make sense to you. Granted. But He still said it.
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Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 6, 2025, 9:32 AM
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John 9: 4-5
I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
We were looking at this passage in SS this morning. Another place where Jesus separates himself from the father.
Is there anywhere in the other New Testament writings where Jesus refers to himself as god?
Or anywhere in the OT where the Messiah is said to be god?
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Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus
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Apr 6, 2025, 5:39 PM
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>Or anywhere in the OT where the Messiah is said to be god?
This I think is the bigger point.
Jesus did say "The Father and I are One", which is not quite the same as "God I are One", but pretty close. That's what I mean when I say it might take some very, very, close parsing to understand and figure out exactly what Jesus thought of himself.
Reading what he said is easy. Deep diving on it, in his time and place, and what specifically it meant to him, is not so easy.
For instance, at the time, there was a belief held by some that the Messiah would also be a king. Cyrus had been a king. The Hasmoneans, who freed Israel from the Romans a century before Jesus lived (only to lose it again), set up their own Kingship.
So when people asked Jesus, "Are you the King of the Jews", that was a very loaded, and charged question at the time. We would tend to not get the significance of that question today, 2000 years later. But back then, was very, very pointed, trying to probe what exactly Jesus thought of himself.
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"We are discussing what Jesus said about himself."
Apr 6, 2025, 11:11 AM
[ in reply to Re: It's crystal clear in places (like our examples) in the bible, that Jesus ] |
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We/you don't and can't possibly know that. That much is indisputable. Repeatedly claiming that you do does not make it so, no matter how fervently you believe it, or want it to be.
I respect the fact that you believe that, however, and am happy for you if that works for you. I do not and will not show the same respect for flat-out false claims. I can't prove or know what I believe either, and I think that's a reality we all have to accept if we are being honest and interested in honest discussion.
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Re: "We are discussing what Jesus said about himself."
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Apr 6, 2025, 12:51 PM
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Cant know what? I do know what he said, if that is what you mean. I read it just now.
- God says to Abraham, "Tell them 'I AM' sent you." "I AM", in Hebrew, became "Yahweh".
- Pharisees said to Jesus, "You speak as your own witness, which means nothing."
- Jesus responded, "Before Abraham was, 'I AM'." God is his own witness. On hearing that, they tried to kill him on the spot. They knew what Jesus was saying.
- Jesus said to a man, "Your sins are forgiven."
- Pharisees said, "Only God can forgive sins."
- Jesus responded, "So you know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins ... get up and walk."
That is two of several examples. You will read that and say, "He is not saying he is God on earth." Fine. Which is why I said it is pointless to keep going on and on about that. He said what He said. However, many will not accept it because they dont understand how what is clearly a man is claiming both identities, separate but the same. Endless, repetitive discussion about that is therefore pointless: you dont need to keep saying you dont accept it, and I dont try to convince you otherwise.
TLDR: I am not telling what you should believe about Jesus. I'm just saying that He said what He said. There can be many reasons you dont accept that, and those reasons can be good discussions. But regarding what the NT says Jesus said, there it is.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 6, 2025, 3:16 PM
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Nowhere did I say, nor do I believe, that you did not read those things, or that the NT does not say those things.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 6, 2025, 4:16 PM
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He won’t answer me but he is only quoting from the gospel of John.
I may be wrong but Matthew, Mark, or Luke do not have Jesus saying those statements.
I don’t believe Paul ever refers to Jesus as God the father either. Always the son or messiah.
John is ironically also considered the last book of the New Testament to be penned.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
Apr 6, 2025, 5:16 PM
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One of those is Luke. Others as well are not in John. Yes, Paul referred to Jesus as God, plain as day. Two examples among several: (1) in Colossians he called Jesus "... the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" and (2) in Titus calls Jesus "God and Savior."
You are correct: I do not respond to you. Unless, as in this case, there is a silly error of fact that no 'deacon' could make. Even then, rarely.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
Apr 6, 2025, 4:49 PM
[ in reply to You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said. ] |
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Fair enough. There have been discussions initiated and videos posted saying, "Jesus didnt claim to be God." I thought you linked one (could be wrong, cant remember who linked what). If that falls under "I didnt say it", fair enough: the guy who sits 6 inches from the camera said it. At any rate, those threads are more pointless than most of these are - a high bar, you have to admit, or would that be low - because some look right at Jesus's comments, like I quoted above, and say, "He's not claiming divinity". What's the point of discussing a thing if plain language isnt granted?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I did post something a few weeks back by a bible scholar who was discussing
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Apr 6, 2025, 5:35 PM
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whether or not Jesus, according to scripture, ever claimed to be God. My point here has nothing to do with what the bible says or doesn't say.
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Re: I did post something a few weeks back by a bible scholar who was discussing
Apr 7, 2025, 12:11 PM
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So, clear it up. Jesus said those (and other) things. Do you read those and say, "Jesus is not claiming to be God on earth"? I am not asking whether you agree with Jesus on that point. I am asking whether you think He said it.
I wont argue with you, either way. I'm only asking how read a comment like "I AM", and the others. No need to say why - I'm not going to agree or argue with you - just say whether you think that is what He said.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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My point is this
Apr 7, 2025, 5:31 PM
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Just because it says in the bible that Jesus said those things, it doesn't mean he did, and there's no way to know. You know that the bible says he said those things, but you don't, as a matter of fact, know that he did.
You are making claims as to what the bible says. You believe it is actually what Jesus said, but you don't know.
I think that what I and many others see as contradictions, are an indication that Jesus probably didn't say all of those things.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 6, 2025, 5:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said. ] |
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I’m sorry these discussions agitate you but thank you for humbling yourself and granting me a response and also for participating in these discussions that you call pointless.
Plain language would be consistently referring to Jesus as this or that. The language is confusing at best, contradictory at worst.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 6, 2025, 6:15 PM
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I find it quite confounding, and thus, immensely interesting.
I can't quite figure out if Jesus changed what he thought of himself, or if his nature was revealed to him in different stages, or if what he thought of himself was simply too confounding for some to accept.
But I do think it is all rooted in Jewish tradition, if we understand Jewish tradition deeply enough.
Consider this remarkable verse in John, where former believers walk away from Jesus.
John 6:65
[Jesus] went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."
That's a real as it gets. He simply crossed over some people's belief thresholds, who he already had as followers. No one trying to advocate for a religion would make that up. That's genuine reality right there.
But look closer... "unless the Father has enabled them.” That is deep, deep Jewish tradition right there. God is in control of EVERYTHING. Even controlling if you believe in him or not.
Look at these examples of God blocking belief in him:
Isaiah 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes so that they cannot see, and their hearts so that they cannot understand.
Or Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Or even 2 Cor 4:4
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.."
That's the Bible, in multiple verses, among several more examples, saying that God himself is stopping people from believing in him. That's very Jewish (and Muslim, incidentally), but not very Christian, thought.
Now, I don't know if that's true or not but it's what they believed, and said. And it's confounding. And that's what I mean when I say I'm not sure exactly what all is going on in their minds. We have our understanding, but do we have theirs?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Again, to me, the very simple and obvious explanation is that God
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Apr 6, 2025, 7:45 PM
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did not say these things, nor are these God's words as penned by men who were simply guided or told exactly what to write; rather these were the beliefs and opinions of men just like us, who were expressing their very human opinions and beliefs based on thier personal experience, knowledge, and feelings, that were perhaps altered over time to reflect the experience, knowledge, and agendas of those who changed them.
Just my opinion, but I don't believe we'd be having these discussions debating or asking these questions if they were things that were truly important or things God meant for us to know. I don't believe God would have failed that miserably in his creation such that he'd be engaged in an ongoing struggle, or fixing things that didn't go as he'd planned, or accounting for it by having most of us gotohell for eternity. It would be absurd to think an all-loving, all-powerful God would create and allow anything for one second that wasn't exactly what he wanted.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 7:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said. ] |
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"Jesus did say "The Father and I are One", which is not quite the same as "God I are One", but pretty close. That's what I mean when I say it might take some very, very, close parsing to understand and figure out exactly what Jesus thought of himself."
It falls way short of saying "I am god". A husband and wife are said to be "one" when they are married. They are still two distinct individuals.
I'm really not even sure what the argument is here. None of us are saying Jesus didn't consider himself divine. He could be divine and not consider himself the actual god Yahweh.
"I find it quite confounding, and thus, immensely interesting.
I can't quite figure out if Jesus changed what he thought of himself, or if his nature was revealed to him in different stages, or if what he thought of himself was simply too confounding for some to accept."
It is very interesting. Ironically I'm more interested now than I was when I was a believer. And by believer I mean that I fell into to the modern evangelical christian niche and their version of christianity.
I think I've realized, and become comfortable with the fact that I can believe in a higher power, believe in Jesus and his message, but not believe every little nook and cranny of it. It's sad that there are people out there that will frown upon that. Frown upon honesty.
"But look closer... "unless the Father has enabled them.” That is deep, deep Jewish tradition right there. God is in control of EVERYTHING. Even controlling if you believe in him or not."
Another conundrum here. Do I have free will, or is everything up to god?
When you dig into the bible, you come out with a lot more questions than answers.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Well said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 8:51 AM
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I believe "The Bible" can be made to say just about whatever one wants it to say if one starts committed to a particular belief and then looks for ways to support that belief.
I think I've realized, and become comfortable with the fact that I can believe in a higher power, believe in Jesus and his message, but not believe every little nook and cranny of it. It's sad that there are people out there that will frown upon that. Frown upon honesty.
Me too.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Well said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 10:17 AM
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It’s funny I was having a conversation with my wife last night along these lines. She listens to the Bible on audio book. Just straight Old Testament. She claims she gets something new every time. It’s amazing how in this world you get more from whatever you put into it.
For a Muslim, it’s the daily sacraments. For a Jew it’s sacrifice although I think they’ve evolved from this for the most part. Some people find therapy in exercise. Some find it in drugs and alcohol unfortunately and those things give you exactly what you put into them as well just in a negative way.
If you read the Bible from the perspective of an evangelical Christian, you are going to come away with those beliefs for the most part. Nobody reads it without a starting premise like you say.
It wasn’t even written that way. John had his beliefs before he started writing. Ironically the more I think about it I wonder if John’s opening was a rebuttal to Matthew and Luke’s birth narratives. Like hey wait a minute, Jesus was there at the beginning, he wasn’t born and raised like a peasant. Oddly enough Paul never mentions the virgin birth either. He actually says “born of a woman” not “born of a virgin” in Galatians.
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Re: Well said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 10:50 AM
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Wow that is interesting. Seems like the virgin birth would definitely be mentioned by all the New Testament writers.
But at the same time, Paul's writings are very early, possibly recording events happening just a few years after Jesus, and he clearly believed Jesus was the son of god, the Jewish Messiah, and the savior of the world.
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Re: It really is fascinating.
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Apr 7, 2025, 7:00 PM
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I love Bart Ehrman. That was a good listen.
A few of the highlights for me:
-Matthew didn't know Hebrew. Odd if he was a tax collector in Israel. He drew from the Septuagint which mistranslates the original Hebrew Old Testament regarding the virgin birth.
-Some interpret Luke to describe an actual physical relationship between the Holy Spirit and Mary when she is impregnated with Jesus, so he is actually physically the son of god.
-Christianity eventually combined the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke with the idea of God becoming flesh in John to create the doctrine of the incarnation.
-In Galatians chapter 4, Paul gives one of his few statements about the historical Jesus' life, saying he was "born of a woman", not "born of a virgin".
-Some scholars believe Luke chapters 1 and 2 are not original. His gospel refers back to the baptism but never Jesus' birth, and the book of Acts never mentions it, or anywhere else in the New Testament.
-The doctrine of perpetual virginity developed for Mary in the 2nd-4th centuries and is still believed by a lot of catholics today. They believe that Jesus' brothers and sisters were a product of a previous wife of Joseph's or were actually his cousins.
-Ehrman asks his students to list every detail of Matthew's birth account, every detail of Luke's, and then compare the two. There are several things that can not be reconciled.
-There is evidence in the New Testament, even Matthew and Luke, that the writers thought Joseph was actually the father.
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Re: Well said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 2:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: Well said. ] |
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>Ironically the more I think about it I wonder if John’s opening was a rebuttal to Matthew and Luke’s birth narratives. Like hey wait a minute, Jesus was there at the beginning, he wasn’t born and raised like a peasant.
It's dramatically different to me. I'm not sure if it's a rebuttal, or a development, but the change is noticeable. John is FAR different than the three other Gospels.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 2:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said. ] |
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>I think I've realized, and become comfortable with the fact that I can believe in a higher power, believe in Jesus and his message, but not believe every little nook and cranny of it.
This was a key moment in my own spiritual growth, if you will.
Everyone is trying to the best of their ability to understand.
I now look at other's views of God as tools to help me understand. Not to have the exact same beliefs, but as differing glimpses to help me see through my own dark glass.
That includes Eastern and Western philosophy. That's why I've said I believe God comes to some in one way, and to others in other ways. And why I think we all might be 'right,' no matter what we beleive.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 2:08 PM
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>It is very interesting. Ironically I'm more interested now than I was when I was a believer.
Me too. By leaps and bounds. Once one moves beyond the bounds of what God might be, as defined by any particular religion, it's like the parting of the clouds, lol. The possibilities become limitless.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 2:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said. ] |
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Everyone is trying to the best of their ability to understand.
I now look at other's views of God as tools to help me understand. Not to have the exact same beliefs, but as differing glimpses to help me see through my own dark glass.
That includes Eastern and Western philosophy. That's why I've said I believe God comes to some in one way, and to others in other ways. And why I think we all might be 'right,' no matter what we beleive.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 1:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said. ] |
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"That's very Jewish (and Muslim, incidentally), but not very Christian, thought." Au contraire. Calvin was right!
Seriously, unless I was an atheist - in which case I wouldn't be thinking clearly enough to consider this - I would be reading the Gospels wondering why it is my spirit refuses to grant even minimal truth to what Nobel winners consider to be authenticated documents. If I can't grant even the possibility that the resurrection occurred, or that it means what Jesus said it would mean while talking to Nicodemus, even though the words are laid out in plain language, is God possibly allowing my heart to remain closed? Why? Am I one of the majority who is not "enabled" to come to Him?
That thought would scare me to death. Most are not bothered by it at all. How could anyone not at least do a double take? But most dont. That alone seems evidence to me that Jesus meant literally what he said, that "no one can come to me unless the Father draw him". If you're not one of those, you don't even worry that it might be the case.
We already know that if a thing is true, some people will refuse to believe it. The less convenient that truth, the larger the group who will not believe it. The existence of that group does not prove that the thing is true. However, the larger the group, the larger the evidence that people are capable of refusing truth for personal reasons. On this subject, that would scare me to no end. I mean, I love you guys and all, but no, I look around and can see where it ends in eternity. But most people? No bother at all. Take a cookie.
https://youtu.be/nvaE_HCMimQ?feature=shared
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 2:20 PM
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>Au contraire. Calvin was right!
Very true!
Calvin may have leaned on those very verses in his understanding.
It certainly does add a certain credence to predestination. For anyone raised in the choice/consequence mindset, it's a far cry from Free Will.
But it's indicative of the toughness of understanding. How can one believe, if they were not one selected to believe? As I've said, confounding.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 3:46 PM
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Here is how I think the Calvin view makes sense (not proposing it):
The Fall seems to have been more permanently altering than we acknowledge. We discuss humanity in moral terms, so we have relative ways of mitigating our failings: social consciousness, altruism, etc. Help elderly ladies across the street. To be sure, old ladies need the help.
I think all this is merely symptomatic of an identity change that happened at the Fall. This change is so profound that while we once walked with God as a presence no less tangible than MissTulsa's is to me, Adam's own son refused to accept God saying, "Don't worry about it. Do what I said, and all will be okay." Within a few generations we denied He even exists.
This was not an intellectual or emotional argument with God. We chose another identity, in full view of the cost. Like this rendered Cain blind to the God he had left, today we also insist on fitting Jesus into our fallen identity, rejecting Him on that basis. We proudly claim the resulting lack of understanding, though that puts one in the vast majority.
The blindness was instantaneous.
With this blindness being universal, Rev 3:20 is necessary. Without that drawing/enabling/knocking, we will not know He is there, let alone open the door. All that is left for Calvinism to be right is for that knock to be selective. Not all who hear the knock will answer, but do all get one? Is that even unfair to we who have chosen to abandon Him? I often hear, "That's BS: I never heard a knock of any sort." Either God doesn't exist, or I would be careful in concluding or announcing such a thing.
I thought I'd never say it - so I understand the Armenian view - but the older I get the more I think the Calvin view is supported by observation. .
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said. ] |
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I appreciate that. I see you need a more forthright answer. You deserve a complete answer, whether you believe it or agree with it or not. so, beginning again:
You are correct; I dont respond to you.
Many people post opinions, and the sharing of opinions sometimes leads to arguments about those. This is a good thing. If some normal heat isn't in the conversation, we don't know we're even talking with the authentic person. I don't know where the line is, but while neutral language is good, hidden emotions are a deception; flat liners are rarely honest. There are people here who pull few punches in discussing concepts, or in challenging those held by others. I've said to Ford, for example, that I think he uses spiritual discussion to promote the idea that all religious thought has sociological origin, and that I wish he'd just say it, because I don't think that proposal could be defended. I might be right or wrong that he has that intent, but I don't think Ford sees that as a personal attack; that's how we uncover things. I think he knows I love talking with him, and him as a person. Same with Smiling and others.
Talking with you is unpleasant because your intent is instead personal. You post to bait arguments. When you talk about people to other people in a thread - a thing literally no one on this board does except you - we know it's personal with you. I am under no obligation to respond to that.
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 2:08 PM
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I don't want or need your response, just thought it was funny that you continued to ignore such a direct question to your statement, which you often do, and how you pretend that you are above these discussions, while simultaneously engaging in them.
"You post to bait arguments. "
Thank you for telling me why I post. Yes, you seem to know every hidden agenda and intention of every poster on this site. I've seen you question the integrity of pretty much everyone that posts in this forum that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I really think Ford nailed it above:
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Apr 7, 2025, 3:13 PM
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Everyone is trying to the best of their ability to understand.
I've said that numerous times in here myself. Many extremely intelligent people, much more intelligent than any of us, disagree about God and what the bible says and what it means. The reason for that disagreement, I believe, can only be explained by the influence of environment and individual experience, which is different for every single person, not the devil or stubborn refusal to accept uncomfortable truths. In fact, I could argue that people who refuse to accept that uncertainty are the ones who can't deal with a very uncomfortable truth; but that's not what I believe. I think smart, sincere, open minded people can have that view. I would even say I know they can.
We are all doing the best we can to understand and make sense of it all. We each have different perspectives and understandings.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 2:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said. ] |
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>I've said to Ford, for example, that I think he uses spiritual discussion to promote the idea that all religious thought has sociological origin, and that I wish he'd just say it, because I don't think that proposal could be defended.
Close, but not quite. I DO think that all religious thought is thoroughly colored by differing social conditions.
But I also think it is all in response to something than cannot otherwise be explained. So the origin, for me, is up in the air. As an Atheist I would have said the origin is human. But I'm not there anymore. I talked myself out of it by confronting my own limitations "> When I know all there is to know about existence, then I'll declare that God, is or, isn't there. But I doubt that will be anytime soon.
I do see all religion is a reaction - to the mysteries of the world I cannot deny exist.
None of it is "made up" in my opinion. Its' just that different people experience those mysteries in different ways.
I've used the car in the closed garage analogy before. You hear a Chevy, 88 hears a Mercedes, Smiling hears a Volvo, Dog hears a lawnmower, and an Atheist hears a phonograph playing 'car sounds'...there is no car for him.
The Social aspect, to me, is inseparable from our experience. It's as integrated to our understanding as our eyes and ears.
And no, I don't take it personally at all. I enjoy the differences of opinion. It wouldn't be much of a board if we all agreed.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 2:54 PM
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>all religious thought has sociological origin, and that I wish he'd just say it, because I don't think that proposal could be defended
I don't think it can be defended either. Which is exactly why I'm not an Atheist anymore I argued myself out of it.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: You are totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I said.
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Apr 7, 2025, 8:39 PM
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Yes, I knew that. My point is that we can talk that way. You idiot.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: Wait just a dang minute
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Apr 7, 2025, 8:42 PM
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He meant that one.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Re: Wait just a dang minute
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Apr 7, 2025, 9:48 PM
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I literally laughed out loud!
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Wait just a dang minute
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Apr 8, 2025, 4:45 PM
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What's wrong with Volvos?
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Wait just a dang minute
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Apr 8, 2025, 4:47 PM
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Who wants the Jaguar?
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Solid Orange [1385]
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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Re: Seeking the truth is my top priority.
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Apr 6, 2025, 1:42 PM
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@CURinging07, the Psalmist wrote it. Chapter 139. Rejoice that we get to live it too.
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