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Oculus Spirit [94279]
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I wonder if this is why Catholics pray to Mary?
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Feb 11, 2024, 10:42 AM
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1 Kings 2:
"12 Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.
13 And Adonijah the son of Haggith came to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon. And she said, Comest thou peaceably? And he said, Peaceably.
14 He said moreover, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And she said, Say on.
15 And he said, Thou knowest that the kingdom was mine, and that all Israel set their faces on me, that I should reign: howbeit the kingdom is turned about, and is become my brother's: for it was his from the LORD.
16 And now I ask one petition of thee, deny me not. And she said unto him, Say on.
17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.
18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king."
I can see how it all reasons out but I do pretty good following Jesus instructions to pray to The Father. So far it's worked like He wanted it to.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Re: I wonder if this is why Catholics pray to Mary?
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Feb 11, 2024, 12:32 PM
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I dont know, but it is certainly a reason to have one wife. Or kids by only one.
"Say on." Loved it. "Sure, go ahead" just isnt the same.
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110%er [9122]
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Re: I wonder if this is why Catholics pray to Mary?
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Feb 11, 2024, 2:15 PM
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We pray to saints also. But here's an answer
https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-pray-to-mary
Answer:
Why Pray to Mary? Because Jesus has given us his Blessed Mother as our great spiritual mother (Rev.12:17), a heavenly advocate who intercedes for us.
Some Christians will ask, “Why pray to Mary when we can go directly to Jesus?” And yet they have no problem asking others here on earth to pray for them, instead of simply and solely praying to Jesus on their own. Indeed, St. Paul says that God grants blessings “in answer to many prayers” (2 Cor. 1:11). And if the prayer of a righteous man on earth avails much with God (Jas. 5:16–18), how much more would prayers from one who has finished the race and now reigns with Christ in heaven?
Scripture elsewhere speaks of the “the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven” and “the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb. 12:23, emphasis added). Given their heavenly perfection in Jesus, which would include perfection in charity and thus concern for their brothers and sisters in Christ on earth (see 1 Cor. 2:12-26), we should not be surprised that Scripture presents these holy men and women of heaven bringing our prayers to Jesus the Lamb (Rev. 5:8), and that from the early Church onward Christians have asked the intercession of the saints who have gone before them to heaven.
In this light, we see that the saints—as faithful disciples of Jesus—are his collaborators, not his competitors in interceding for us. Consequently, because Mary is the Mother of God and the disciple par excellence (see Luke 1:28, 38), we should not be surprised that she is our preeminent intercessor among the angels and saints.
For more on this subject, see our tracts on “Praying to the Saints” and “The Intercession of the Saints.”
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Oculus Spirit [94279]
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Re: I wonder if this is why Catholics pray to Mary?
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Feb 11, 2024, 5:58 PM
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No one has more respect for Mary than me. I was impacted by the angel saying she is full of grace. To what other being is that said, Jesus only.
I've never been reluctant to ask others to pray for me. I want you to know that I in no way intended to make light or levy insult to any of Catholic faith. I simply read the Bible and have questions. Sometimes I pose them here for discussion.
Thank you for participating, it edifies all to be exposed to those of different faiths.
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Legend [17964]
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Thank you. Enjoyed going over that.
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Feb 13, 2024, 12:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: I wonder if this is why Catholics pray to Mary? ] |
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All of this makes sense. And of course you and I agree that God is not going to ask whether we are Catholic or Baptist, and we agree that only Jesus is our savior. From that starting point, there is not much of importance on which to disagree.
So, just for conversation, I will make one proposal. You referenced Rev 5:8. You see that as prayers going to people in heaven who then take them to the Father, an intercessory role. So, you would see people as having that role, Mary being one of those. Fine. All good.
When I read 5:8, that thought does not occur to me. I do not see saints interceding. Instead, what I see is that our communication with God here is as tangible a part of that scene as their presence. How the bowls and incense got there is not mentioned, is not a point of the description. I see John describing a unity of all followers, now and departed, that already exists. We are already one community.
That you read 5:8 and see one thing, and I another, is no big deal. So, allow me one more proposal: churches/denominations were never meant to form along such lines. You and I can be a part of one faith community, each knowing we hold this different view of 5:8, without it causing a second's discord. The body of truth that is necessary to be believed is very small, maybe as little as four sentences. However, churches have expanded that into very large bodies of identifying 'truth', each a little different, none of it consequential. One has to give the Enemy his due: it was a brilliant plan, and we bought it.
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Oculus Spirit [94279]
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Re: Thank you. Enjoyed going over that.
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Feb 13, 2024, 2:30 PM
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1 Cor 3:
"1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?"
About 5-6 years after I got saved God convicted my heart of trying to prove that all that I knew was His truth. He spoke plainly to me, in His mercy, and said, 'Forget everything you know other than Jesus crucified and I will open you to my Word as I open it to you.'
Much of what I learned in the Baptist churches I'd attended was reinstalled and renforced. Some of it was ignored or postponed for later. He set the schedule and my plate had more than I could eat.
Most churches would 'turn me out,' if they knew of everything I believe and don't believe or don't care about.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Re: Thank you. Enjoyed going over that.
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Feb 13, 2024, 3:27 PM
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Wonderful testament.
Forgive me, but this might violate the principle you described. But it is an example of how turning truth into dogma leads away from the truth that is Grace. We know what communion is and is not. We know the first one was a passover, and that Jesus reset the scene. "Do this in remembrance of me (no longer the blood on the doorpost)." So, we know who communion is for, and who not. Fine. So, in a recent communion I heard a pastor say, "If you are here today and you are not a follower of Jesus, we ask that you not partake." We ask.
I couldn't believe I heard that. Made me mad. I'm still perturbed about it, which puts me in the violation of your principle. Who am I to be mad at him about that? I believe things that would make him mad, too. Granted, I'm not telling people how to behave, like he is, but still. We can let that stuff go. But it is an example of how we turn truth into a dogma that then hides that truth.
Edit (don't have to read if tldr); The reason it made me mad is that I also heard a pastor say, after describing why we were about to take the bread and wine: "Or maybe you are not a follower of Jesus, and maybe the Holy Spirit is knocking on your heart today. If that is the case, there is no better way to say to Him, "I am surrendering my life back to you, as you did for me." The woman sitting beside me picked up her wine, began to lift it to her mouth, but set it back down. She reached into her pursue and took out a notebook, flipped through some notes she had made that morning. She looked out the window, took a big sigh. Reached for her wine, then took the bread. I'm pretending like I'm unaware, not noticing a thing, but inside I felt like I had just seen 'the Renfrow catch'. She died unexpectedly a month later. So, yes, I wondered where she would be had she heard, "We ask that you not partake."
As you said, beyond the cruxifixction/resurrection, there is not much left to say to each other. The rest is between us and Him. Even Paul's longer letters were descriptions of what Jesus had done in him.
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Starter [397]
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Re: Thank you. Enjoyed going over that.
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Feb 13, 2024, 3:42 PM
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There was a time when this bothered me as well. I have been to several Masses and at communion was told that I may come forward (with arms crossed) to receive a blessing as I, not being catholic, could not partake of the elements. One service I got up and my wife asked where I was going. I said, "To receive a blessing. Who doesn't want a blessing?"
Forward years later my family and I attended a funeral mass. My teenage son was a little put off by not being allowed to take communion. As we were leaving he said, "Even Judas was at the last super".
At our church (Presbyterian), the pastor always says "this is the lord's table and all are welcome. It is open to all. If for whatever reason you feel you cannot take communion, you may receive a blessing and hope that one day you will join us at the Lord's table."
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Oculus Spirit [94279]
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Re: While I have your attention...
Feb 14, 2024, 8:02 AM
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Good question. To me, the longing expressed seems accurate, and universal. He was more Hindu than Catholic in practice, so he seems to be asking for a general religious solution to pervasive strife and aloneness, one religion as good as another. I will say it describes the need all people experience, while avoiding the source of that need (our own fallenness) and the solution (Jesus). All religion, including Christianity (the practice, not the minimal truth) and Hinduism makes that mistake, imo.
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Oculus Spirit [94279]
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Re: While I have your attention...
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Feb 14, 2024, 11:12 AM
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I think it was just pandering to Christians after claiming the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. I didn't realize I was being pandered to at the time. 
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