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CU Medallion [58503]
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Is it wrong now for police to attempt to question
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Aug 12, 2023, 8:00 PM
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a person who fits the description of a suspect, or to chase and cuff that person for questioning if they flee? Apparently the boy's father was upset, claiming the police traumatized his son, but it seems to me that the police acted appropriately and have nothing to apologize for. How about teaching your son to cooperate with police, and things would have gone much smoother.
https://share.newsbreak.com/4o5tn03h Police apologize after Black teen cuffed in "wrong place, wrong time" case - NewsBreak Police in Lansing, Michigan have issued an apology after a Black teen was put in handcuffs by a White police officer in an "unfortunate case of 'wrong place, wrong time.'" The police department made several statements on Friday after videos circulating on social media showed the incident. The Lansing Police Department said first that it was an "unfortunate understanding." Officers were investigating a string of Kia car thefts, the department said, including a "specific" theft reported on West Jolly Road. A witness to the theft, which had multiple suspects, described one suspect as wearing neon shorts and a white shirt. A responding...
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110%er [9057]
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Re: Is it wrong now for police to attempt to question
Aug 12, 2023, 8:09 PM
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doesnt seem to be enough probable cause to detain him
gonna get paid
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CU Medallion [58503]
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Just so I'm clear, matching the description of a suspect
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Aug 12, 2023, 9:01 PM
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and then fleeing when police attempt to question him is not reasonable suspicion (which is all that is required to detain)? What on earth does it take?
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110%er [9057]
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Re: Just so I'm clear, matching the description of a suspect
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Aug 12, 2023, 11:26 PM
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12 year old taking out the trash
i think they are going to get paid
you should read it again, it does not say that this person ran
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Lot o points [156090]
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It literally says he fled.
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Aug 13, 2023, 2:45 PM
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A responding officer saw someone matching the description in a similar outfit and attempted to make contact, but the person fled.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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I made the same mistake. The way it's written is not
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Aug 13, 2023, 3:06 PM
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super clear, but upon re-reading, I think the person who fled was the original suspect, but the one they wound up cuffing was the 12-year old boy who was taking out the trash, but was dressed very similarly to the suspect, and therefore fit the description closely enough to be legally detained.
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Lot o points [156090]
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Makes sense now, kind of? My bad Rangers.
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Aug 13, 2023, 3:10 PM
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What a poorly written article.
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110%er [7165]
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Re: Makes sense now, kind of? My bad Rangers.
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Aug 13, 2023, 7:40 PM
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Regardless, mistaken identity is, well, mistaken identity.
Mistaken is the key word.
The 12 year old was detained because of a highly plausible mistake. The boy was released quickly, with accompanying sincere apologies. There was no apparent hidden agenda to harass kids.
If minimizing long term trauma to the kid is the objective, then a police outreach program (coordination of a police role presentation and look through of police cars, labs, etc. as coordinated with the parent(s)’ and kid’s schedules, would be far more preferable than dragging the kid into court so that the family and the family’s lawyer (who gets ~ 40% of any judgement) would accomplish.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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Exactly. The kid matched the description of the suspect
Aug 13, 2023, 8:19 PM
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who was seen by witnesses and was seen in the vicinity of a recently commited crime, which gives the police reasonable suspicion to think he may be the suspect.
It was reasonable to think he may be the suspect, police responded appropriately, and when it turned out he wasn't, he was released. All legal and appropriate. Just because the kid is black is no reason to assume or suspect that it was racially motivated.
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CU Medallion [60091]
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All-In [27232]
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Yes.
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Aug 12, 2023, 8:13 PM
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Haven't you ever met a libertarian? The only thing you say to a cop who questions you is yell as loudly and as paranoid as possible, "AM I BEING DETAINED?"
But seriously, the appropriate/smart thing to do would have been for that boy to say, I'm sorry officers but I don't feel comfortable answering any questions without my parent present. I don't know how it went down but any defense attorney would tell you to remain calm and civil, but don't answer anything.
#ShutTheEffUpFriday
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CU Medallion [58503]
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I understand that nobody is obligated to tell police
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Aug 12, 2023, 9:09 PM
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anything, and cops have to inform you of that right once you are placed under arrest. Police have every right to detain a suspect and question them until that point, however, if they have reasonable suspicion. I would think that matching the description of a suspect and subsequent fleeing would meet that requirement.
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110%er [9057]
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Re: I understand that nobody is obligated to tell police
Aug 12, 2023, 11:30 PM
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it doesnt say that this person ran
"A responding officer saw someone matching the description in a similar outfit and attempted to make contact, but the person fled. A second officer saw the mistakenly-cuffed boy and "made contact with him," the Lansing Police Department said."
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CU Medallion [58503]
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I did misunderstand that part - thanks.
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Aug 13, 2023, 1:04 AM
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It was not the boy who fled, apparently it was the original suspect. Then the boy, who was dressed almost identically to the suspect, in a t-shirt and neon yellow shorts, was spotted nearby, and detained. A short time later, as soon as it was determined he was not the suspect they were looking for, he was released.
I stand corrected on that part - there is no report of the boy running from the cops. Still, he fit the description of the suspect, so there was reasonable suspicion for detaining him.
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CU Medallion [60091]
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You don’t detain on reasonable suspicion
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Aug 13, 2023, 7:02 AM
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you can Terry Stop, but not detain. You can only detain on Terry if Officer safety is an issue. Like you can Terry stop anyone but if you see a gun or a large knife or if you find one during the stop, you can detain. Plenty of precedent.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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You can detain on reasonable suspicion ...
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Aug 13, 2023, 10:06 AM
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CU Medallion [58503]
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And matching the description of a suspect is reasonable
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Aug 13, 2023, 10:10 AM
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cause.
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CU Medallion [60091]
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Not totally true
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Aug 13, 2023, 10:12 AM
[ in reply to You can detain on reasonable suspicion ... ] |
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If I detain you, you are being ID’d, which does stay on your “record”. Anytime your ID is ran, it’s a “contact”. So it stays with you.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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But to the point, police can detain you if they have
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Aug 13, 2023, 10:19 AM
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reasonable suspicion, and matching the description is reasonable suspicion. Don't make me provide multiple articles that say the same thing.
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CU Medallion [60091]
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Sure. Not arguing it. But it’s not good practice.
Aug 13, 2023, 10:28 AM
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If I detain it’s typically because someone is playing lawyer with me and won’t ID themselves. OR I think you are going to run. The variables are so vast.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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Legally detaining a suspect who matches the description
Aug 13, 2023, 11:37 AM
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and is spotted in the vicinity of where the crime just occurred is not good practice? I's say not doing so would be negligent.
A robbery just occurred. Call goes out: Suspect is white male wearing pink top hat and black t-shirt. You spot a white male wearing a black t-shirt and pink top hat just around the corner. Do you not approach that guy every time, and detain him if need be in order to investigate further?
Or, let's say his hat is actually fuchsia, not pink. Do you think, "nope that can't be him"? No, there is reasonable suspicion, you investigate, and detain if needed.
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All-In [27232]
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CU Medallion [60091]
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I will 100% be the first to admit that Terry
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Aug 13, 2023, 10:56 AM
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is shaky. I don’t like it….or what they call a “field stop”. So many things can be taken the wrong way.
For instance, jaywalking. Ok, am I stopping you for legit jaywalking OR are you black and walking from the liquor store back to your house? You know what I mean? It’s kind of ######. If I was a judge I would ask “how many jaywalking tickets have you issued before finding this bag of crack on this jaywalker”. I don’t like that policing. I would side with Balm too. You have to always be on alert. But a middle aged dude (black or white) who more than likely isn’t looking like a shitbaggg….I would ask to just “hang tight with me until we figure this out”. Then if you run, I will take chase. But cuffs is embarrassing and sometimes detrimental to your public standing. I mean what if Balm’s boss walks out of dinner with his wife. He is ######.
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All-In [27232]
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IMO, and what I probably haven't done a good enough job
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Aug 13, 2023, 3:27 PM
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on here conveying, is that my main issue with policing is not the power that police have, but accountability when using it. And I think your example here is a great example of what I mean. Police are given enormous power because it's necessary to keep us and them safe. When wielded correctly, it is a great system. When abused, it ruins or takes live. And, maybe I'm wrong here, but the cops that you typically see in the headlines have a pattern of behavior that has led them to that moment when the line finally gets crossed, and a ton of problems within policing (and the social fallout that only creates more issues) could be solved by recognizing those patterns and doing something about it. Not Monday morning-quarterbacking every decision, or making cops walk a tightrope with everything they say/do (my neighbor got written-up once for dropping an F-Bomb at a guy they just caught after a high speed pursuit, and getting that on his file really bothered him), but a good example is when you said that guy firing down the street at the golden retriever should have his badge taken.
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All-In [27232]
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I am genuinely not trying to be glib here...
Aug 12, 2023, 11:32 PM
[ in reply to I understand that nobody is obligated to tell police ] |
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But there is a long racial history of innocent black people "fitting a description." I'm not saying what the kid did was right/wrong (I don't know the details), but it would be foolish to dismiss such fear out of hand.
Again, the right thing would be to calmly and plainly explain you are not answering any questions without a parent, and shut up until they were there. Running is the absolute worst option.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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First, let me humbly admit that I misunderstood part
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Aug 13, 2023, 1:31 AM
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of how it all went down. I though the boy fled, and was subsequently detained; but it was apparently the original suspect who fled and escaped, and then the boy was seen nearby and detained.
Still, I don't understand how police were wrong for detaining him until they could determine he was not the guy they were looking for. He wasn't detained merely because he was black, which of course would be wrong, but he actually fit the description ... black male dressed in neon yellow shorts and white T-shirt. Reading some of the comments below the article, some people are basing proof of racism on the fact that the suspect was wearing a white t-shirt, but the boy's t-shirt was LIGHT GRAY! You can't make this up. It was perfectly reasonable to think that may be the suspect.
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All-In [27232]
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For exactly this reason is why.
Aug 13, 2023, 8:53 AM
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Because you cuffed, detained, and humiliated the wrong person who wasn't even wearing the right clothes, wasn't acting suspicious, and was was just taking out the trash. So they should keep him cuffed and in the car for a few hours until they can prove he's innocent?
Imagine if that happened to you. You were taking out the trash, cops pulled up, you got handcuffed as all your neighbors were coming out to see what happens and start recording you being handcuffed by police. And then you have to sit on a curb, outside your house as your family and kids look on, for an hour or so until the cops determine you aren't their guy. And then what? You shake their hands and tell them they did a good job?
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CU Medallion [58503]
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I disagree. Yes, I would absolutely shake the hands of the
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Aug 13, 2023, 11:25 AM
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cops and tell them job well done, because I understand that me or my children being temporarily inconvenienced is a small trade-off when it is mecessary for police to reasonably and legally do their jobs. Nothing to be afraid of, nothing to be pizzed about.
Because you cuffed, detained, and humiliated the wrong person who wasn't even wearing the right clothes, wasn't acting suspicious, and was was just taking out the trash. So they should keep him cuffed and in the car for a few hours until they can prove he's innocent?
First, they didn't know he was the wrong person, or that he was just taking out the trash. They had know way to know those things; that's what they wanted to find out, and had every right to do so. They detained him because he was dressed very similarly to the suspect, and matched the description very closely; black male in neon yellow shorts and white t-shirt, in the vicinity of the where the crime had just occurred. So what if the kid's shirt was light gray instead of white? That would be a very easy and reasonable detail for a witness to get wrong, to confuse light gray with white. The exact hue of yellow may have been a few shades off as well, and the inseams may have been 12" instead of 8". That wouldn't make suspicion unreasonable either. And they have every right, with such reasonable suspicion, to keep him detained for a short time while they try to identify him and determine if there is probable cause to make an arrest. Cops do this lawfully with "the wrong person" hundreds of times a day.
If it were my kid, I'd explain it like this: I know this was scary and sucked for you, but understand that the police were just doing their jobs. You should not be afraid of police because of this. You were not harmed and you should be grateful they are out here trying to protect us and get the bad guys.
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All-In [42298]
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C'mon...
Aug 13, 2023, 2:35 PM
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You make good points in this thread, but you wouldn't shake a cop's hand and say nice job after this:
Imagine if that happened to you. You were taking out the trash, cops pulled up, you got handcuffed as all your neighbors were coming out to see what happens and start recording you being handcuffed by police. And then you have to sit on a curb, outside your house as your family and kids look on, for an hour or so until the cops determine you aren't their guy. And then what? You shake their hands and tell them they did a good job?
You'd be furious and humiliated, and you should be in America. That cop wouldn't deserve a handshake. I'd be working day and night after this to make sure he loses his job or the department loses a lot of money.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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I disagree 100%.
Aug 13, 2023, 2:57 PM
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I've done nothing wrong, I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. My neighbors know me, and they respect the cops too. Once they know what happened, they will understand as well, and my life will go right on like nothing happened. If somebody still chooses to be suspicious of me after the truth is known, I can't help it; they weren't a very good friend after all.
I have actually known and witnessed cops who were on the take and crooked as hayull; involved in dirty, illegal activity. People were hurt. I know good and well that they exist, so I am under no illusion that all cops are angels or that cops should not be scrutinized and held to a high standard. All I am saying is that if I fit the description of a suspect, and they therefore have reasonable suspicion, then I understand that it is not personal, nor a violation of my rights, if police temporarily detain me as part of their investigation. Now, if they were a-holes about it, smartasses who tried to rough me up or otherwise abuse their authority, then sure, I wouldn't like it, but if they are just doing their job, I would have zero problem with it, and yes, I would thank them and let them know there were no hard feelings.
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All-In [27232]
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That's fine.
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Aug 13, 2023, 3:15 PM
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Meanwhile I will teach my kids to respect police, and make sure they understand how dangerous/hard their jobs are so they know why the respect is deserved. But I will also make sure they understand when police are asking you questions, they aren't your friend, or "trying to do you a favor." They are looking to put a bad guy in bracelets, and your innocence is a guarantee of nothing. I will tell them to comply with the request for an ID, say "yes sir. no sir.", do not be combative, and tell the police as many times as it takes you will not answer any more questions without a parent present. And after that. Just shut up.
I like to imagine the majority of cops are like manac, but you don't know who is showing up. And even innocent, accurate answers (especially with the feds) can be turned into charges.
Had a buddy of mine involved in a domestic issue at a hotel. They were both drunk, and both are idiots. Cops got called, my drunk buddy thought he could explain the situation to the cops and they would understand. All he did was give them what they needed to lock him up and charge him with felony CDV, even though, in terms of true "justice," they both deserved either to be locked up, or cut loose. If he had just shut up, he still may have been locked up for the night, but the case would have been harder to make. The only reason he's not in a Florida prison for a few months is because she decided not to cooperate with the criminal proceeding.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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I think that's good advice.***
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Aug 13, 2023, 5:04 PM
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Legend [17339]
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Sometimes details in news are hard to discern. Similarly details between…
Aug 13, 2023, 9:42 AM
[ in reply to First, let me humbly admit that I misunderstood part ] |
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Reasonable questioning and “detaining in handcuffs” are difficult including intent, reasonableness etc.
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Heisman Winner [111935]
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Yup, I got detained minding my own Bizz in Venice Beach
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Aug 12, 2023, 9:06 PM
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I had to sit on the sidewalk for 20 minutes while a cop fetched some chick to say it was not me, I was never even told what the crime was about. He held my ID, it had my address which was 1/2 a mile up the road.. Not an attorney, but yeah, I felt as though my rights were violated.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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Why were you detained in the first place?***
Aug 12, 2023, 9:38 PM
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Re: Why were you detained in the first place?***
Aug 13, 2023, 6:02 AM
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He told you. They thought he was possibly the suspect, but Balm was just some innocent guy minding his business. The lady confirmed it wasn't Balm. End of story.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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So how were the police wrong? That's what I'm
Aug 13, 2023, 12:21 PM
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trying to understand. I mean, I know Balm wasn't the suspect, so he was the wrong guy, but that doesn't mean the police were wrong in their actions. If he matched the description of the suspect, they had every right to detain him.
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CU Medallion [60091]
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My motto: Just because you can, doesn’t mean you have to
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Aug 13, 2023, 12:37 PM
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And I have never been written up or had a complaint.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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I agree - cops should use discernment.
Aug 13, 2023, 12:53 PM
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I don't know enough details aboy Balm's case, but detaining the kid in the OP seemed perfectly reasonable to me.
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Heisman Winner [111935]
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Re: Why were you detained in the first place?***
Aug 13, 2023, 7:59 AM
[ in reply to Why were you detained in the first place?*** ] |
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I was walking home from the beach, minding my own business, like I said. He took my license and would not give it back, and told me to sit on the sidewalk and not move until they drove some chick by in a car to confirm I was not the dude.
They are d!cks out there, I once watched a cop pull a pit maneuver on a homeless guy on a bike, and broke his leg, it was all uncalled for. They thought he had stolen it, even though they did not have a lick of proof. We were just sitting there in utter amazement as they handcuffed him and left his bike on the corner, accusing him of stealing it, yet leaving it on the sidewalk for someone else to snag.
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CU Medallion [58503]
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Look, I'm by no means claiming that there aren't bad
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Aug 13, 2023, 11:54 AM
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cops out there. They have their share of bad apples like every other profession. I just don't think that me being inconvenienced is automatically reason to be pizzed at cops and think they are d!cks. I understand that in some instances, it may be perfectly reasonable and necessary.
I was pulled over once and questioned because unbeknownst to me, someone had switched my tag and replaced mine with one that belonged to a stolen car. I wasn't cuffed, but I was detained for about an hour while they figured it all out. I had done absolutely nothing wrong, so I cooperated fully. I had no reason not to. It was the days before cell phones, and I was expected home, but family was worried sick because they didn't know where I was. I was eventually released, but it caused a great deal of worry and concern and inconvenienced me a great deal. But I never thought for one second "THESE COPS ARE D!CKS. I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG! WHY ARE THEY PERSECUTING ME! I AM GOING TO SUE THEM!" Nope. I understood they were doing their jobs, and I was happy to cooperate.
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Heisman Winner [111935]
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Re: Look, I'm by no means claiming that there aren't bad
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Aug 14, 2023, 7:21 AM
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they are militant in southern Cali, that kind of thing never happened anywhere else I lived, Well except watching them beat the crap out of a kid in Podunk Florida when he surrendered his license, but would not get out of the car. They broke his glass, tased him until he pissed himself, and from the best could tell, cause another cop moved his car forward so we could not see what was going on, beat home with their clubs. I was standing behind a Biker Bar in central Florida, white kid, had his mom and child in the car behind him watching and screaming the entire time. Other than the cop that locked me up for DUI, and these knuckleheads, all my experiences with law enforcement have been great.
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110%er [5508]
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Police aren’t allowed to make mistakes
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Aug 12, 2023, 10:06 PM
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Unless they’re FBI
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110%er [9057]
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furthermore
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Aug 12, 2023, 11:44 PM
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nobody should pull a gun because of a Kia
nobody
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CU Medallion [58503]
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Can't argue with that!***
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Aug 13, 2023, 1:05 AM
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Hall of Famer [20002]
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Why did he run from the cops?
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Aug 13, 2023, 2:39 PM
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That's the icing on the 'suspicious person' cake!
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CU Medallion [58503]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46376
Joined: 4/23/00
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Exactly who ran from the cops? The way the article is
Aug 13, 2023, 5:13 PM
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worded, it's hard to be sure if it was the original suspect, the boy who was eventually cuffed, or some 3rd party who resembled the suspect.
Upon first reading, I thought it was the boy who ran. But after Rangers pointed it out, I read again and think it was probably the original suspect who ran. The boy, who was dressed very similarly and was taking out the trash nearby, was detained and handcuffed until they could determine he was not the guy, and they had no probable cause for arrest.
A witness to the theft, which had multiple suspects, described one suspect as wearing neon shorts and a white shirt. A responding officer saw someone matching the description in a similar outfit and attempted to make contact, but the person fled. A second officer saw the mistakenly-cuffed boy and "made contact with him," the Lansing Police Department said.
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110%er [7165]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 9729
Joined: 10/6/21
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Lansing, MI - - - great job by police
1
Aug 13, 2023, 7:31 PM
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The police did an outstanding job, and their apology was perfect.
This kind of thing just happens sometimes in precincts when the community expects that the Ives should be caught.
The alternative is what we see happening before our eyes in NYC, LA, & SF. Formerly great cities are on the path towards not having any places to shop. The wealthy are already leaving those places, which starts the process of serious erosion of the tax VPs axe.
Good for Lansing, MI.
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110%er [6500]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10134
Joined: 11/2/03
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Re: Is it wrong now for police to attempt to question
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Aug 13, 2023, 9:45 PM
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A "White male wearing a blue hoodie and black athletic pants" just robbed a liquor store. Police see a "White male wearing a blue hoodie and black athletic pants" 300 yards from said liquor store. Nah, they shouldnt stop him and question. Definitely shouldnt stop him if he runs. Might be profiling or something.
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Hall of Famer [24849]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42665
Joined: 7/31/10
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Let's just say, I'm not going to get into MY police stories.
Aug 13, 2023, 10:14 PM
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My fault, their fault, good cops, bad cops... Yea, I got a 'few'... I got a few about judges for that matter.
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