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Rock Defender [54]
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Deer Dabo
Oct 24, 2013, 10:13 AM
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Please get Sammy the ball this week. Like A LOT. Throw to him 15 times, get him 5-7 carries, and make sure he is ordered to return every kickoff that he catches in bounds. And I don't care if he's 9.99 yards deep in the end zone. And also let him return punts.
Ya better win this week.
kthxbye
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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So let me get this straight...
Oct 24, 2013, 10:14 AM
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First you give him bad advice and then tell him he better win. That is a bit confusing.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I'd love for you to elaborate on what bad advice was given****
Oct 24, 2013, 10:16 AM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Should read, throw it to him 20 times
Oct 24, 2013, 10:18 AM
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No, scratch that, let him play QB and have him throw it to himself...wait, no...is Sammy the only QB able to overthrow Sammy? deep thoughts.
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Aficionado [155]
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Need to establish a second receiver early in games
Oct 24, 2013, 11:43 AM
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The only way to actually get Sammy more quality touches will be to have other scoring threats established early in games for defense to worry about, short QB runs aren't going to do.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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3 of your 4 suggestions
Oct 24, 2013, 10:26 AM
[ in reply to I'd love for you to elaborate on what bad advice was given**** ] |
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#1 and most obvious. We don't block well on kick returns. Bringing the ball out of the end zone could put us in a terrible spot to start on offense.
#2 Sammy on punt returns. Sammy has never proven to be a good punt return man. He shows flashes on kickoff but it is mostly due to his straight ahead speed.
#3 and you get a pass for this because everyone would disagree with me. Sammy should maybe get 1 carry at the most and only to keep the defense honest for all the times we fake to him. Sammy is a WR for a reason. He does not read running lanes well. This trait hurts him on kick and punt returns as well so it goes partly into #1 and #2. There have been many times he has been given the ball this year where he has a chance to get some yards and completely misses the hole.
I love Sammy and he is a great receiver but when he leaves Clemson it will be the end of his days as a kick or punt return man. He does not have the specific skills to do these things long term. Watch him this weekend. Even on plays where he catches the underneath ball he will make a few bad reads and lose out on extra yards by cutting off of a block the wrong way or getting himself trapped to the sideline.
His assets are his speed and his hands. Not his vision as a runner.
We would be better off giving those carries to Brooks as long as he is holding on to the ball Saturday.
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CU Guru [1203]
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You're fired***
Oct 24, 2013, 10:45 AM
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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I would love to hear an actual response as to why I am wrong
Oct 24, 2013, 10:47 AM
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It has happened before... once 
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Rock Defender [54]
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I'm not going to say you are wrong, but I do disagree
Oct 24, 2013, 11:03 AM
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here's why:
1. Sammy is the most explosive player on our team. Period. Bar none. He should get more touches for this reason alone.
2. For punt returns, A Hump averages 7.2 yards per return for his career on 30 touches. That's awful. While Sammy's stats aren't any better, he's only caught 8 punts in his career. See #1. Nowhere to go but up with Sammy back there.
3. For kickoffs, SW averages 23 yds per return. See #1. Again, he gives us the best chance at a big play. So what if he gets tackled at the 17 instead of the 23 or 25 on a TB?
4. He's averaging 7 yds per carry rushing the ball. I'm not saying we run him a bunch between the tackles. Rather, I'd like to see him be used more often like he was his Frosh year. And yes he is also very valuable as a decoy. Motion helps him get more space off the line of scrimmage as well.
I don't want to see him leave and we all are left wondering why we didn't see more of him ala CJ. Sammy IMO is more than a WR, he's a playmaker.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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I like your points
Oct 24, 2013, 11:20 AM
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1. I didn't disagree that he should get more touches. I just think it should be in the passing game. If you want to throw him 8 or 9 quick screens and see what he does then great. Jet sweeps and plays similar have not been productive outside of 1 run vs Furman last year.
2. How many muffed punts does Humphries have vs Sammy? Sammy didn't gain yards there either. Again we don't block that play well. I would rather catch and get 5 than drop it.
3. I also didn't say he shouldn't return kicks. I said he shouldn't bring them out. 23 is less than 25 and again outside of 1 game against Maryland 2 years ago his overall production hasn't been great.
4. I haven't looked at stats but in watching the games I know he misses more than he gets. I like giving it to him once or twice to make the motion and the decoy effective.
I am more worried about looking back and saying why didn't we use him the right way once he is in the NFL. I agree with giving it to him more, but it should be in ways that give him and the team the best chance to be successful. Not thinking of as many possible ways as we can to do something weird. Also every time he returns a punt or runs a 3 yard jet sweep, it takes away his energy to be able dominate as a receiver.
We didn't have CJ lining up at WR and running post routes just to get him the ball more. He did what he was good at and that made him great.
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All-Pro [693]
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Re: I like your points
Oct 24, 2013, 11:38 AM
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"We didn't have CJ lining up at WR and running post routes"
No but he was running wheel routes and was one of the most potent parts of our passing games. CJ catching passes = Sammy running the ball, you give the ball to your most dynamic player.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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It isn't the same thing
Oct 24, 2013, 11:44 AM
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CJ was a great pass catching RUNNING BACK. He ran routes only out of the backfield. CJ did not line up at WR and run WR routes. CJ running flare routes and wheels out of the backfield = throwing quick screens to Sammy. Sammy is good at that and it is an extension of the run game because it gets him the ball quick.
Saying CJ in the passing game is the same as Sammy in the run game is like saying Hot Rod is an every down back because sometimes he picks up 7 or 8 yards on 1st down.
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All-Pro [693]
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Re: It isn't the same thing
Oct 24, 2013, 11:58 AM
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A wheel route down the field is not the same as a WR screen, a wheel route out of the back field is the same as a WR in motion running a route down the field. And the point was you do whatever you need to in order to give your best player the ball. With CJ that was catching passes on top of running and with Sammy that's running along with catching passes.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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We won't agree on this
Oct 24, 2013, 12:09 PM
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There is a reason Sammy was more productive as a freshman than the last 2 years. The coaches used him as a WR that year. He isn't the same player CJ was. You must have forgotten how special CJ was already to think we already had another one.
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All-Pro [693]
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Not comparing them that way
Oct 24, 2013, 1:44 PM
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I'm not saying that Sammy is as great of a player as CJ but he is up there. I'm saying Sammy is the best playmaker you have on this team, therefore you have to give him the ball. It's not like Sammy is not out there running routes and being utilized as a WR and I'm not saying make him the primary back. If you give him a 3 carries a game on top of 10 catches then you have the ball in your best playmakers hands 13 times. He may not go anywhere on the runs that's fine but he has the best potential of anyone on the field for our team to take it to the house on any one play where he touches the ball. Plus, how much of a distraction to the D is he running all of these motions in the back field if he never actually gets the ball. He might be distracting tajh from looking where he is going to run and thats about it.
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CU Guru [1203]
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One word: Playmaker
Oct 24, 2013, 11:12 AM
[ in reply to I would love to hear an actual response as to why I am wrong ] |
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Of course with defenses keying on him, if he's only given 2 chances a game, and let's say 1 is the very first play, the odds of him making a play are reduced. So you get him touches.
He'll make a play regardless if he's suited for it or not on the next level. This isn't the NFL.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Wrong
Oct 24, 2013, 11:22 AM
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This isn't high school. He is a playmaker at WR. When has he ever been a playmaker in the run game or punt return game? 1 play vs Furman on a run and that's it. Also, I think he should return kicks. I was arguing with that idea that he should bring it out no matter what.
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CU Guru [1203]
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Wrong?
Oct 24, 2013, 11:35 AM
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He averages 7 yds/carry, 14 yds/reception, 23 yds/KR.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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You just hurt your own argument
Oct 24, 2013, 11:47 AM
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Your stats prove that I am right. Why would we waste his touches in the run game? I agree he needs more touches but it should be on passing plays. By your stats he is twice as effective that way.
And still with the kick return. I did not say he shouldn't be back there. I said he shouldn't bring the ball out of the end zone. 23 is not a very good average by the way. Go back and check CJ, Ellington, or Ford compared to Sammy. I don't know the stats but I bet it's a good 5 or 10 yard difference.
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All-Pro [693]
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Re: You just hurt your own argument
Oct 24, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Of course someone is going to have a higher average catching passes then running if they are any kind of receiver at all. 7yrds per run is a pretty good average.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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It's easy to avg 7 yards
Oct 24, 2013, 12:15 PM
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if you only have 10 carries. 1 20+ yard run will carry the average at that point. He catches a lot of balls at or behind the line of scrimmage and still has a 14 yd/catch avg. That lets you know what he is best at. He needs space. He doesn't need to be looking for holes to run through.
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CU Guru [1203]
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wrong again
Oct 24, 2013, 12:08 PM
[ in reply to You just hurt your own argument ] |
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Then explain this...
He averages more yds / carry than our RBs. We waste run plays with Boyd.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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That's easy
Oct 24, 2013, 12:13 PM
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If somebody gets 10 carries on the year and 1 goes for 30 yards, then they are more than likely going to have a higher average than somebody who carries it 10 times per game or more. That one 30 yard run disappears in the stats when it is 1 of 50 instead of 1 of 10. Also Sammy doesn't get the ball in garbage time against Wake, Cuse, and SC State when the ball is being run to kill clock. To say he is a better running back than our running backs is absurd even with the lack of stud we have at RB this year.
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CU Guru [1203]
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Re: That's easy
Oct 24, 2013, 12:18 PM
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I'm not suggesting he's a better running back. I'm testing your intelligence.
It's ####### absurd that you think that him having a better avg of yds/rec to yds/carry proves your point.
And by the way... you failed. Good day.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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I just checked the stats. Sammy has 8 yards
Oct 24, 2013, 12:22 PM
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TOTAL this season rushing. Where is all this 7 yards per carry stuff coming from? He has a long of 3 and has 8 yards on 4 carries for the season. All of your argument was based off of incorrect stats. He is clearly ineffective as a runner.
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CU Guru [1203]
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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What I see
Oct 24, 2013, 12:45 PM
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We are 7 games in to a 13 game season. He has just under half of the touches he had as a freshmen in a 14 game season. He is also averaging an extra yard per touch this year. So with less run plays he is more productive per touch now.
It seems logical like I have been saying the whole time that we should throw it to him more times a game and continue giving him 1 or 2 runs per game. He doesn't need 7 or 8 rushes because it will take away from his receiving game.
Also his freshman year we didn't pitch it forward on the jet sweep and so those plays that count as receptions now were statistically run plays then.
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CU Guru [1203]
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Re: What I see
Oct 24, 2013, 1:29 PM
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Didn't you just get done explaining that with less touches you can have a higher average? And you just mentioned it's halfway thru the season.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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What is the purpose of your argument?
Oct 24, 2013, 1:33 PM
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You seem to be arguing for argument's sake.
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CU Guru [1203]
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Re: What is the purpose of your argument?
Oct 24, 2013, 1:47 PM
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I'm not arguing. You made my point my long ago. I'm watching you run circles around yourself.
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All-Pro [693]
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Re: What is the purpose of your argument?
Oct 24, 2013, 1:54 PM
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He's been running in circles all day. Should be getting pretty dizzy.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: What is the purpose of your argument?
Oct 24, 2013, 2:08 PM
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You two have been staring at a computer screen too long. I watch the games. There is a reason Sammy is running the ball less and it should stay that way. I think he should be catching it more though.
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CU Guru [1203]
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Re: What is the purpose of your argument?
Oct 24, 2013, 2:20 PM
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The reason isn't what you think, that's the joke.
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Aficionado [155]
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So have we decided that is OK to run Sammy?***
Oct 24, 2013, 3:03 PM
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CU Guru [1203]
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Re: So have we decided that is OK to run Sammy?***
Oct 24, 2013, 4:02 PM
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Don't run him, pass it more because 15 yd/catch is more than 7 yd/carry. Also Sammy isn't a RB, he doesn't see the lanes. Sammy is a WR.
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Legend [15545]
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Re: I'd love for you to elaborate on what bad advice was given****
Oct 24, 2013, 11:05 AM
[ in reply to I'd love for you to elaborate on what bad advice was given**** ] |
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I'd say returning one that is 9.9 deep in the end zone would qualify as bad, but there have been rare exceptions. I'd rather just see Sammy try to return KO's to the side with the least folks, and use his speed to try and outrun folks rather than to run right into the crowd like he seems always to do.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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What you see him do on kickoff returns is
Oct 24, 2013, 11:25 AM
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because he lacks vision as a runner. CJ and Ellington were great with our style of returns because they could find the best way to get through a crowd. Sammy's best trait is to run away from and not through a crowd. The problem is that in college the kick teams try to funnel people in and not let them run away. That's why Sammy's success has been limited.
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All-Pro [693]
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He's the only one on the team that has had any success
Oct 24, 2013, 11:44 AM
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at all on returning kicks. Who was the last Clemson player to return a kick for a T.D. and has the longest return so far this year? Sammy Watkins
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Two things
Oct 24, 2013, 11:49 AM
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The TD was two years ago and saying he has the longest this year is like choosing our best big play threat at RB. Nobody fits the category and so saying who is the best at it is wasting time.
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Legend [15545]
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Re: What you see him do on kickoff returns is
Oct 25, 2013, 2:07 PM
[ in reply to What you see him do on kickoff returns is ] |
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What I am saying is that, since he has been chosen to be the return man, he should make the most of his strength, which is his speed. Running up the middle limits the effectiveness of his speed until he gets through the mass of humanity he usually runs right into. I'd rather see him try to get to the outside quicker and make it a track meet.
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Orange Blooded [2535]
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Yep...
Oct 24, 2013, 11:14 AM
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that's gonna' solve everything.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Good sir, it was not offered as a solution to "everything"
Oct 24, 2013, 11:20 AM
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Are you saying you don't think Sammy should get more touches?
yes or no?
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Orange Blooded [2535]
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well, to be honest, no, not really
Oct 24, 2013, 11:34 AM
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Basically, there has to be a good "number two/ go-to" and even a number three, in order to free those touches up for Sammy and make them count. Even the FSU game they were going to him but the avg per catch kept shrinking as his window tightened b'c no one else was making plays. I see it kind of like having that good hitter AFTEr the clean up hitter in baseball. As far as the kicks, there are hardly any to return anyway, with the way guys are punting and kicking off, and the rules of it all.
So I don't see this as much of a solution. The better solution is to be able to spread the ball around, then go back to him when the D is getting pulled in trying to stop everyone at once. This may not be football coach parlance, but it's the best I can do.
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Aficionado [155]
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Agree. Sammy has created momentum for us in many
Oct 24, 2013, 11:39 AM
[ in reply to Good sir, it was not offered as a solution to "everything" ] |
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games, I like the idea of more of his touches coming by the way of slants and at least 2 Sammy-runs per game more if they are actually working.
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Aficionado [155]
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I can GO
Oct 24, 2013, 11:30 AM
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Nuff said.
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110%er [6226]
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I agree...
Oct 24, 2013, 11:32 AM
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We need to get the ball to him much, much more... With that said, he should not be returning punts. That is a turnover waiting to happen.
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Aficionado [155]
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I think if anything on Punts, Sammy is pushing too much to
Oct 24, 2013, 11:35 AM
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make something happen. I don't agree that Sammy catching punts and fair catching is not within his ability or that Sammy cannot read return routes.
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