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Standout [340]
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Major difference between Paul and Jesus
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Dec 8, 2023, 1:01 AM
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Jesus believed in the Jewish concept of free will as stated in the Old Testament. Keep in mind Jesus never intended to contradict the Torah, he came to fulfill it. But the concept of free will has been debated in Judaism, even though it is referenced throughout the Bible.
Jesus Christ summarized the free will teaching in the Old Testament
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23:37-39; Luke 13:31-35)
“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute? They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One, of whom you have now become betrayers and murderers. You received the law as it was ordained by angels, and didn’t keep it!” (Acts 7:51-53 WEB)
https://www.bibletruths.org/free-will-in-the-old-testament/
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-free-will-problem-medieval-solutions/
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/free-will-in-judaism-101/
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/responding-to-the-free-will-problem-in-judaism/
Paul taught original sin, that all men are depraved through the fall of Adam.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/original-sin
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/original-sin/
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All-In [29874]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
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Dec 8, 2023, 2:14 AM
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Good links. Predest vs. Free Will is a favorite on the board. Well-trodden ground. But every new discussion of it brings greater understanding, or at least greater respect, for the opposing viewpoints. If either was a slam dunk it wouldn't have been a topic of discussion for 2000+ years.
This in particular got my attention from your links, because it has come up tangentially in different forms, and I see it as a big consideration:
"If these factors in large part, determine our behavior, how can we be held responsible for our actions?"
I've become more and more convinced that "I" is illusory to some greater than small extent. For instance, I don't like oysters. But that's not "me" deciding that, that's my body revolting against them when I try to eat them. So am I occupying my body, or am I my body? I don't set my heartrate, or decide when I need hormones, or set my temperature. All that is done for me, behind the scenes.
So what do I control? Where an arm goes? How many fingers to hold up? And the more scary question, what do I think I control, that I actually don't? My opinions? My reactions to things? My interpretations? Where is the line between "Me," and whatever else is running "Me?" Both my body, and my mind?
In an extreme case of that, I've got a friend who is convinced, in his heart of hearts, that an event happened that never did. It was a non-descript event, so no big deal. Except that it never happened. Positively. He starts telling me about it, and I said "But you were with me and the wife, on the other side of the country, when you say this happened. I have dated pictures of you with us.
Now, the guy is otherwise as normal as it gets, no reason to lie, been friends for years. And this isn't a case of him scrambling a memory. This is a case of a memory that his mind has fabricated completely from whole cloth. The mind can do crazy things.
I saw a documentary years ago where a guy had brain surgery after an auto accident, and when he woke up, he started telling his family about his trips to Alaska a few years earlier. To which they replied, "You've never been to Alaska. Ever. not as a child, not as an adult." So they start asking the doctors what in the world is going on, and it comes out that during the surgery, they had to ice down parts of his neck and head to slow the swelling. And all they can figure is that that sensation of cold triggered a cascade of everything he had ever seen or read of experienced about being cold. He brain created a false reality to comprehend those sensations he had in surgery, apparently. No one still knows for certain, but weird.
Anyhow, to tie all that back into your main topic. If Free Will does exist, what exactly is the "Free" part of us?
And as it ties to Paul, I believe he does mention predestination on occasion. Romans 9:29 for example: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed..."
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
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Dec 8, 2023, 2:36 AM
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I know a couple of things, they were just men and nothing else. Moreover, what you know of them is henerally just fiction made up by other men.
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All-In [26514]
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God is not bound by time ... you act of your free will, but God already
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Dec 8, 2023, 4:14 AM
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knows what you will do cause he's seen the full movie of your life already ..
extra butter on the popcorn
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: God is not bound by time ... you act of your free will, but God already
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Dec 8, 2023, 4:47 AM
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There is a power of the universe, but there is no plan for you. You are the same as a deer or any living organism. Everything is special and not special. That's reality and fact.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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That's your opinion.***
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Dec 8, 2023, 5:31 AM
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:11 AM
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> That's your opinion.
That's all anyone is expressing here...?
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
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Dec 8, 2023, 2:11 PM
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He said he was expressing fact.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
Dec 8, 2023, 2:15 PM
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Helpful as always, glad you're here
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
Dec 8, 2023, 2:36 PM
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Thank you. So, to clarify:
He didnt express an opinion, right?
So, it's not "all anyone is expressing here", right?
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
Dec 8, 2023, 2:40 PM
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I'll clarify that I have zero interest in useless rabbit holes with you.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
Dec 8, 2023, 2:43 PM
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Let's see, there is a quote here somewhere. Oh yeah:
"You’re something else when someone points out a flaw in your logic."
Where did I hear that?
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
Dec 8, 2023, 2:49 PM
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I mean, sure, if we weren't referring to you specifically.
You don't argue in good faith, and aren't particularly honest.
That's on me for thinking it would change.
Not interested, bye.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
Dec 8, 2023, 2:50 PM
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"You’re something else when someone points out a flaw in your logic."
You're too easy.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: That's your opinion.***
Dec 8, 2023, 6:55 PM
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I think the cheese has slid of your sandwich, nawm saying?
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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All-In [26514]
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Faith does not require proof ... that's why its called faith.***
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Dec 8, 2023, 9:47 AM
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Faith does not require proof ... that's why its called faith.***
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Dec 8, 2023, 9:57 AM
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You can believe anything then in that case
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Can you choose anything other than that which God knows you will
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Dec 8, 2023, 9:34 AM
[ in reply to God is not bound by time ... you act of your free will, but God already ] |
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choose? IF not, then free will is only an illusion, as you are not free to choose anything else. If you can choose something other than what God knows you will choose, then he doesn't know what you will choose after all.
I agree, however, that God exists outside of time. I believe God sees everything at once. For us, life unfolds like a movie, one frame at a time. For God, when he looks at his creation, it's as if he's looking at a completed painting.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus:
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Dec 8, 2023, 5:21 AM
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Jesus is The Son of God. Paul was a fragile human. Jesus alone lived an absolutely Holy life in flesh.
The next most major difference is that Jesus lived under the law His entire life up to and during His death, Paul lived under the law up to their meeting on the road to Damascus where he realized Jesus was God's Son and Jesus saved him. He lived the rest of his life under grace.
Is it that you are reading people who believe that because we are predestined that we don't have free will?
It takes some serious mental gymnastics to do that and not blame God for all the sin in this world as if to make it His fault.
That's calling God unholy? DOOD, that's the one sin that if you die with puts you in eternal exile from God. I'm not saying confusion over predestination sends anyone to exile. I'm saying that concluding that God is responsible for sin does.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus:
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Dec 8, 2023, 8:59 AM
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" Jesus alone lived an absolutely Holy life in flesh."
How do you know that?
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CU Medallion [58427]
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If you have the power to stop something with absolutely no
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Dec 8, 2023, 9:51 AM
[ in reply to Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus: ] |
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consequences whatsoever, but you don't, aren't you responsible, or at least complicit? I know we keep going over this, but you keep bringing it up, and never explain it. At least you have admitted that God could stop all sin, but chooses to allow it; yet you act as if he bears no responsibility for it, or as if he hates it.
So...
1. God despises sin, and does not have to allow it to exist.
2. God allows sin to exist.
3. God is all powerful and created everything, but bears no responsibility.
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Legend [17918]
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God has taken responsibility
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:04 AM
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And He gave His Son as a sacrifice because of sin.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: God has taken responsibility
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:09 AM
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I mean, so says an ancient book. It also says snakes talked, the earth stopped spinning and various other outlandish claims. Why believe them?
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Legend [17918]
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Re: God has taken responsibility
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:18 AM
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It also says there will be those who mock it too.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: God has taken responsibility
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:24 AM
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So that makes it true?
Btw, pointing out something ridiculous doesn't make it mocking. Is correcting a flat earther mocking?
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Okay, now I'm really confused.
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to God has taken responsibility ] |
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Is God responsible for sin, or not? 88 says he's not. I believe 88's position is that God hates sin, does not need sin, but allows it to exist even though it's totally unnecessary, but bears no responsibility.
Does he want sin to exist ... any sin?
Why allow something that would require a sacrifice?
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Did you obey your parent every second, minute, hour of the day and
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Dec 8, 2023, 11:07 AM
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ever day of the year? No, you lie if you say otherwise. I'm not calling you or anyone a liar because no one would ever say they had been that obedient.
Why then, having yourself, a perfect example of a son who confessed to disobeying his parent yet has never blamed his misbehavior (sin) on them for going horizontal, yet accuses God?
I can see you now.
Judge: Sir, you were driving 45 in a school zone. Do you have anything to say about that?
You: Your honor, my mama and daddy fell in love after they met and soon..."
I'm laughing something off right now!
Disclaimer: some folks can conceive a child by artificial means which excludes going horizontal. Others may conceive without artificial means or going horizontal.
I'm not throwing off on the position of their parents while conceiving them nor suggesting TTAWWT, OK?
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CU Medallion [58427]
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My parents can't do anything about sin existing in the world.
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Dec 8, 2023, 11:21 AM
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God can. It can only exist with his permission.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Which has nothing to do with the relationship between God and Adam.
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Dec 8, 2023, 11:44 AM
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You’re something else when someone points out a flaw in your logic.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Adam has nothing to do with me
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Dec 8, 2023, 12:01 PM
[ in reply to Which has nothing to do with the relationship between God and Adam. ] |
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if you are going to bring logic into it. Or justice, or love. Besides, this BEGS the question, WHY DIDN'T GOD NIP IT IN THE BUD? As I've explained before, free will or not having us be like robots is not a reason. And it's preposterous to suggest that God allowed something that required sacrifice (of a human being, or his own son) or restitution in the first place. Nothing is required of or for God. Everything is his choice. Even the existence of sin and evil. Else he is not all powerful after all.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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The most important reason is that I would not exist and therefor...
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Dec 8, 2023, 6:48 PM
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would not enjoy eternity with Him. I think there may be another billion folks or more that feel the same way.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Why would you not exist? You make statements like this without explaining
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Dec 8, 2023, 7:02 PM
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your point. I can't think of any reason you or I could not exist or enjoy eternity with God if sin did not exist. I thought God was all powerful.
PLEASE explain what you mean.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Some folks speculate that God created man before Adam and destroyed...
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Dec 10, 2023, 8:43 AM
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that man, or those men. The Bible says nothing of the sorts so I don't buy it.
As Genesis goes; First God created the world, sometimes later He created Adam, then Eve. They ate of the 'tree,' thereby introducing sin into the world. If you were going to 'cut your losses,' would you not most probably take radical action as soon as you realized you had, or were about to start losing ground in that particular venture?
Barring extraordinary circumstances everyone would say 'I'm done with this! I've wasted the last penny I'm going to waste.'
Common sense, being that's what you're expecting from me, demands that God would have ended this world as soon as they ate the fruit. Yes, no, maybe?
Neither Seth, Cain nor Able would have been born since all were born after their parents' sin. I believe we all are children of Adam and Eve therefore I believe mankind would not exist. I would not get to spent eternity with God. Therefore I delight in His creation.
Any consideration given to the thoughts that God could have 'done it all again,' would be akin to the idle speculation that He's done it before. In respect for His omniscience, I would call that thought and those like it, shortsighted.
I wouldn't exist, you wouldn't exist, you'd never enjoy the love between you and your parents, wife or children and you would never know comfort of trusting them or even trusting a friend.
This is all common sense to me. I love existing and the funnest part of that is enjoying fellowship with those I love of whom God is by far my best friend and receives my love. I most enjoy those who love me.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Some folks speculate that God created man before Adam and destroyed...
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Dec 10, 2023, 9:08 AM
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Let's make this simple. Do you think that God knows everything that will happen?
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Wait a minute ... an all powerful God had "losses" and was in danger of
Dec 10, 2023, 3:45 PM
[ in reply to Some folks speculate that God created man before Adam and destroyed... ] |
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"losing ground"? (your words). God messed up? Whaaaaaaat? Do you not see the absurdity? An omnipotent God has no losses, and is never in danger of losing ground. So no, common sense does not demand that God would end the world at this time, thereby squashing any chance for us to ever exist. Comman sense demands that God would not allow anything he didn't want in the first place. No losses, no need for atonement, no sacrifices necessary. It goes without saying that an omnescient God can do anything, without restriction - no speculation required.
Common sense demands that if an all-powerful God wants something, it happens. If he doesn't want something, it doesn't happen. God doesn't have to let anything happen, or happen in a certain way, in order to get the result he wants, or get the "best" result. By definition, and all-powerful God is bound by nothing.
In summary, there is no reason you and I could not exist, if that's what God wanted, if God had not allowed sin to exist.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus:
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:08 AM
[ in reply to Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus: ] |
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> It takes some serious mental gymnastics to do that and not blame God for all the sin in this world as if to make it His fault
Nah, the only mental gymnastics is claiming that a divine being created people, the world goes to #### and results in eternal torture for most people and then claiming the creator has no fault in that. Like really? You create imperfect beings and then get indigant when they act imperfectly?
> That's calling God unholy?
No, it's calling your religious ideas ridiculous. As far as I can tell, I'm discussing religious ideas created by ancient men with other men. No divine being has ever entered the conversation in my experience.
> I'm saying that concluding that God is responsible for sin does.
Man is responsible for the idea of sin, they made it up.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Woah, Nellie::
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:56 AM
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No one has never heard or read me saying God created man unholy, imperfect or sinful.
God didn't create us, maaaaaannn!
You were created by a man and woman. Your grandparents were created by a man and a woman, their parents, grandparent and their parents' parents' and their grand...were created by Adam and Eve. So was I and every other living human.
Except: Adam and Eve. They were created by God. So no, absolutely not! God did not create imperfection and any such tripe comes from a heart of pure evil or one which is ignorant.
The difference between us is that I was born of the Spirit of God some 51 years ago when I accepted Jesus as His Son and my Savior.
I understand you, I've been there and done that. It satisfies the mind when kept in the forefront but never has or will it satisfy your soul.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Woah, Nellie::
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Dec 8, 2023, 11:52 AM
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Ok, so let me trying following this logic:
God created Adam and Eve. He didn't create imperfection in them. Adam and Eve sinned. But God didn't created THAT part. He only made the perfect parts and it's totally man's fault for acting in a nature they didn't create?
It doesn't make sense. It's not evil to call out bad logic, that's a silly trope on your part. "Everyone must be an evildoer who doesn't believe my religion!". That's exactly how a lot of atrocities start. Pretty scary stuff.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Bottom line: God created an existence which he knew included sin.
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Dec 8, 2023, 1:16 PM
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In no way did he have to allow it, nor was there anything that allowing it would accomplish that God could not accomplish just as effectively and completely without it. There is no way, following basic logic and common sense, one can conclude that God bears no responsibility for sin. 88 has admitted that God has chosen to allow sin; it only exists with his full knowledge and permission; yet somehow he bears no responsibility.
There's something wrong with that picture.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Bottom line: God created an existence which he knew included sin.
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Dec 8, 2023, 1:50 PM
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This is what happens when you try to make all the evidence fit a conclusion instead of the other way around.
88 believes what he believes, and that's fine, but you must realize logic, reasoning and evidence aren't going to sway him.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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I respect 88's right to believe whatever he wants. I know he is a good
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Dec 8, 2023, 7:06 PM
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person with his own reasons for believing what he believes, and it's not my place to judge him based on that. Even if I disagree, or don't understand. So I'm not trying to sway him; I'm just trying to understand. If I'm wrong, I want to get it right so I'm curious and open minded, but if somebody tells me things that don't make any sense or are full of contradictions, I'm going to need further explanation.
God is all powerful; there is nothing he can't do.
God created everything there is.
God hates sin, but he didn't create it.
God wants/allows sin to exist.
That requires some explaining for me. Still waiting.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Our differences of opinion are due to me believeing the Bible is God's Word.
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Dec 9, 2023, 2:30 PM
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I don't think you believe that. Until you do you will be haunted with questions and, I honestly believe, you will reject any response which isn't in harmony with your belief(s).
I so appreciate your patients with me even though I provide similarities between men and God Who created us in His image which at times comes across and condescending.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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No, I don't believe The Bible is the inerrant word of God, because
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Dec 9, 2023, 3:59 PM
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it is full of contradictions and factual errors, has been changed over time (we know this because we have old manuscripts with words crossed out and replaced with the words that were used afterward, as well as words and whole verses that were left out). We have no original copies, but only copies of copies of revisions of copies that included errors and revisions and copies of copies of revisions of revisions. We know this.
And if God created us in his image, and you can make assumptions about us based on that belief, then you would have to conclude that God sins as well, just like we do, because we are created in his image.
Now, if you can show me that isn't true, I am totally open to that. I am perfectly willing to change my beliefs if it doesn't require suspending logic and basic reason. For instance, you can't tell me that God created an existence which he intended to include sin and evil, but then tell me God hates sin and evil and is fighting against it. You can't tell me that God loves me more than any human can understand, and then tell me he intentionally created an existence which included a place where I would burn in agony for eternity if I made the wrong choice(s). You can't tell me that God is all-powerful, then tell me that God did things a certain way because he had to. You can't tell me that God created everything that exists, and nothing exists that he didn't create, and then tell me that there are things (sin) he didn't create. It's gobledegook, it's nonsense, it's directly contradictory. Like Desantis said in the debate the other night, don't whizz on my leg and tell me it's raining.
If you can't see why I reject that, then you don't understand basic logic. You tell me one thing, then turn right around and tell me something that is a straight up contradiction. And you are either oblivious to it, or you don't care. It's not me that is rejecting things because they don't align with my predetermined beliefs; it is you. It is not my mind or heart that is closed; it is yours. You start with the premise that The Bible is God's word, and then ignore and dodge any questions that challenges it. If you can demonstrate to me where I am wrong, I will change my opinion. I don't think you can say the same.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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My God is omnipotent.
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Dec 10, 2023, 8:48 AM
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He produced His Word, protected it and provided it to me. I disregard that there exist other truths.
We will never agree. If you're feeling that, for any reason, I'm not going to change my mind, eureka, you've discovered your first immutable truth. It's as sure as gravity, as immutable as thermodynamics and as stable as magnetism.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Question: Do you not see the irony and hypocrisy in this?
Dec 10, 2023, 2:51 PM
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You said, about me: I honestly believe, you will reject any response which isn't in harmony with your belief(s).
Then, you said about yourself: If you're feeling that, for any reason, I'm not going to change my mind, eureka, you've discovered your first immutable truth.
Your heart and mind are closed. Mine are open. I am trying to understand by asking questions and have a discussion; you are not seeking understanding, nor are you interested in having a discussion. You are only interested in screaming how right you are, and how wrong everybody else is.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Question: Do you not see the irony and hypocrisy in this?
Dec 10, 2023, 6:13 PM
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You have just unlocked: ******************* "RELIGION" *******************
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Sad to the extent it's true. It doesn't have to be that way.***
Dec 10, 2023, 6:19 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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No, because we are created in His image and like Him we have free will.
Dec 11, 2023, 12:50 PM
[ in reply to Question: Do you not see the irony and hypocrisy in this? ] |
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I honestly believe you know that we have free will. What you are blind, deaf and dumb to is that God has free will too. It's so obvious that we are like Him in that manner, being that He had the free will to create us yet you can not comprehend the simple concept of Him having free will to have created us even while knowing that we'd sin.
So sin's God's fault? Are the sins of your children your fault?
I'm done.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Our differences of opinion are due to me believeing the Bible is God's Word.
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Dec 9, 2023, 5:17 PM
[ in reply to Our differences of opinion are due to me believeing the Bible is God's Word. ] |
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> Until you do you will be haunted with questions and, I honestly believe, you will reject any response which isn't in harmony with your belief(s).
Just lol, the irony is ridiculous. You literally just said "Our differences of opinion are due to me believeing the Bible is God's Word" and yet you can't see that it's you that is filtering the data to fit your beliefs and not Smilings.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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I certainly can.
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Dec 10, 2023, 8:53 AM
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I've been where you are, you and smiling have never been where I am in The Lord. All I'm trying to do is help you understand Who loves you enough to die for you, two, and urge you to consider that love.
I speak from experience.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: I certainly can.
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Dec 10, 2023, 9:07 AM
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Ironically, I have indeed, been where you are.
If there really was one out there who loved and wanted a relationship with me, I wouldn't have to hear it from some dude on the internet.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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I DO believe in God's unfathomable, unconditional love. You, on the
Dec 10, 2023, 3:20 PM
[ in reply to I certainly can. ] |
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other hand, believe in a God who intentionally created an existence for us which included a place where most of us would burn in agony for eternity. You get around that by saying God sacrificed his son so that we could still get into heaven, ignoring the fact that h*ll and any sacrifice whatsoever were totally unnecessary, as nothing is necessary for an omnipotent God.
Creating something which includes an unnecessary burning in h*ll for eternity for those he loves is the opposite of love. But, you refuse to face that reality because it doesn't support your beliefs. Instead you quote scripture and parables and examples that you believe support your beliefs (but don't), while continuing to ignore the fundamental problems I point out.
My goal in this is not to change your beliefs; I am not interested in that in the least. As far as I am concerned, you can believe exactly as you do, and we can still be good friends. Many, if not most of my closest friends and family believe exactly as you do. You all want to change my beliefs, but that's okay, because I know it comes from a good place. My only interest in this is to try to understand how and why others think the way they do, while gaining a deeper understanding of God and spiritual matters myself.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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If you have a dictionary look up tolerate and promote.
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Dec 8, 2023, 6:58 PM
[ in reply to Bottom line: God created an existence which he knew included sin. ] |
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There's a difference. You tolerate a cotton pickers when the bowls burst and his cotton picker won't run but that's just through one season. Next year he'll buy a new machine and the slow poke cotton pickers won't be on site.
It's economics. You science guys know all about it.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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You keep ignoring the fact that we only tolerate things because we
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Dec 8, 2023, 7:17 PM
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have to. That's it. BUt you act like God has to as well. If God doesn't have to, why does he? Sure, you can claim it serves some bigger purpose in his grand plan, but still, he could accomplish anything he wants without it. Anything he allows is his choice 100%. He doesn't need evil or sin for anything, but you keep giving all of these reasons why he allows it, which imply he has to allow them. You are just going in a big circle. Based on your own reasoning, God wants sin and evil to exist, because it helps him accomplish something. You can't claim that God hates evil, but wants it to exist when he doesn't have to. We only tolerate things we hate because we have to. God does not have to, and it makes no sense that he would if he hates it.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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So you couldn't have gotten rid of you wife the first time she did something...
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Dec 9, 2023, 9:32 AM
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you didn't like? You should have put children up for adoption when they failed to obey. You had the power to do that.
You consistently as if you could do a better job at being God than Him but fail to see that some of your motives and actions show that you were created in His image.
Obviously you didn't divorce your wife because she disappointed you or your children up for adoption when they frustrated you, why? How about applying that to The LORD who sacrificed His only Son to redeem you.
Why do you think He created us in His image? 'Let us create man in our image.' We know Who He was talking to, Jesus who created us and redeemed us with His precious blood.
You would die to save your wife and children. What part of you and anyone who reads this post can't you good folks understand!?!
Intellect is ignored when love enters the heart. Economics is set aside when love shows up. We deify both for love, we deify common sense for love and even civility to defend and protect those we love. We put them above all others and are willing to dedicate our lives to them.
Love is the most powerful force in us. God's love overwhelms our love in that He loved us enough to create us knowing that we would offend Him, be diametrically opposed to Him and unworthy of His love..
Christians try to behave to please Him. Oh, how we delight when our children do things we tell them to do even when they are too young to understand why. Oh, how it delights God that you are interested enough in Him to seek out answers to your questions.
Pray to God for me that someday I will be blessed with understanding to be able to help you find those answers you so desperately seek. Please, pray and include me in your prayers.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: So you couldn't have gotten rid of you wife the first time she did something...
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Dec 9, 2023, 10:29 AM
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> What part of you and anyone who reads this post can't you good folks understand!?!
A bit ironic considering that you continually fail to understand or address what Smiling is actually asking you.
> You would die to save your wife and children.
Of course, and if I had the power to stop any evil or atrocities that may happen to them in the first place to them, I would. That is a big part of the difference you either can't or won't grasp.
If I knew that If I had a kid, and that kid would end up being the next Hitler and I had a choice to not have the kid, I would choose not to. Or if I knew that having a kid would result in them ending up in hell, I wouldn't do that either. Do you really not see the difference?
This is not at all analogous to "would you get rid of your wife the first time she did something you didn't like". That is just a ridiculous analogy, and you are basically gaslighting Smiling at this point with those responses.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Exactly.***
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Dec 9, 2023, 12:40 PM
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Completely, totally not getting it.
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Dec 9, 2023, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to So you couldn't have gotten rid of you wife the first time she did something... ] |
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If I could wave a magic wand that would prevent my wife from doing things I don't like, and everything else would still be perfect, I would. I don't have that magic wand. God does.
Of course I don't put my children up for adoption because they are disobedient. But I try really, really hard to make them be obedient, and so do you with your children. We all do. We have to do that by teaching and punishing and enforcing boundries and setting examples, etc.. We do all of that because the goal is for them to be obedient, but at the end of the day, we can't stop them from being disobedient. God can. If the goal is to stop them from being obedient, God could do it in the blink of an eye, and he could do it without any trade-offs, without giving up anything, and still accomplish every single thing he wanted.
Every single example you give, over and over, ignores the idea that God is all-powerful. You act as if God has to do things a certain way.
You already have arrived at a conclusion, and can't let yourself challenge that conclusion or question any of your beliefs in any way that may challenge them. Reason, logic, and common sense be ######.
You claim that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but you can't bring yourself to admit that everything is exactly the way God wants it to be. If God did not actively, purposefully WANT sin and evil to exist, he would not have created an existence that included it. But he did, and he was subject to no other power which made that a better choice. It was 100% HIS choice. He doesn't just allow it, he doesn't hate it, he's not fighting against it, heWANTS sin and evil to be part of our existence. He made it part of his creation.
John 1:3 KJV: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
I believe there is a God, the source of all that is. I do pray to God every night. I pray for wisdom and understanding. And I pray for you.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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We're all evil.
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Dec 8, 2023, 6:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Woah, Nellie:: ] |
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Some choose to suppress it.
If we weren't Jesus wouldn't have had to die.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: We're all evil.
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Dec 8, 2023, 6:56 PM
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So, just trying to catch up here.
God created us
We are all evil
Not god’s fault
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: We're all evil.
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Dec 9, 2023, 11:25 AM
[ in reply to We're all evil. ] |
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This is another thing that always annoyed me when I was a christian.
Such a dim view of humanity.
We are not that bad. Some of us have been...but the majority of us do not deserve to burn.
Sorry not gonna convince me otherwise.
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CU Medallion [58427]
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I always wondered what purpose burning in agony for eternity
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Dec 9, 2023, 1:04 PM
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served. It's not like it's going to teach anybody a lesson, so they can come out of it a better person. Nor are such extremes necessary or even effective as a deterrent. And it certainly doesn't fit with a God who loves us unconditionally. It really sounds more like something that was dreamed up by ancient people who viewed God as a king/warrior who ruled with ferocity, anger, and vengence and demanded loyalty or else.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: I always wondered what purpose burning in agony for eternity
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Dec 9, 2023, 1:57 PM
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> It really sounds more like something that was dreamed up by ancient people
That's exactly what it appears to be. It definitely doesn't appear to be written by a deity with some higher moral compass than man could come up with.
> I always wondered what purpose burning in agony for eternity served. It's not like it's going to teach anybody a lesson, so they can come out of it a better person.
Exactly. Another point I heard in this vein was how arbitrary it was that the human death was the dividing line. Like, why is that the cut-off? Are you telling me that you don't get irrefutable evidence that it's true until you die and by then it's too late? like really?
I could understand it better if it was something like "have it your way, stay in hell unless you want to change your mind, I'm always here if you do". Then it would be understandable, otherwise it just looks like vengeance humans came up with.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
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Dec 8, 2023, 9:09 AM
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"Keep in mind Jesus never intended to contradict the Torah, he came to fulfill it. "
Well, that's what christians writing after the fact claimed.
How did Jesus really see himself and what did he actually say?
The Jesus Seminar concluded that 80% of the words attributed to him in the gospels he never said, including the famous John 3;16 verse.
And to me that makes sense. Why would Jesus say things like keep the commandments and love your neighbor, if all that mattered was believing?
"Virtually all of Jesus’ words in the Gospel of John were voted down by scholars meeting in Sonoma, including a pulpit favorite, 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son. . . .”
"Most scholars, if they had worked through the sayings as we had, would tend to agree there is virtually nothing in the fourth Gospel (John) that goes back to Jesus,” said Robert Fortna of Vassar College. Jesus says in John “I am the good shepherd . . . I am the light of the world . . . I am the bread of life,” but that “is mostly the work of the author,” Fortna said. Jesus rarely refers to himself in the other Gospels."
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-03-04-mn-77-story.html
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All-In [29874]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
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Dec 10, 2023, 11:41 AM
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Yes, John is the odd man out. I can see Mark as a streamlined version of Matt, or Matt as a beefed-up version of Mark.
And Luke seems very similar to Matt/Mark. But John is a whole other kind of different. Very, very obviously different in feel, tone, words, and style.
The Big Dog
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 10, 2023, 1:31 PM
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The apostle John was chosen to be the one most focused in the deity of Christ. Others have their 'calling,' too. Even some of the overlaps were difference but none made another's untrue. Those issue are matters of perspective.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 10, 2023, 2:17 PM
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John 3:16 does contradict several synoptic passages where Jesus is talking about eternal life and who is condemned.
Also, does Paul ever flat out say that that the difference in heaven and hell is belief?
I know he talks about faith a lot, but he also says people who do certain things will not go to heaven.
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Legend [17918]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:14 AM
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Have you ever met anyone who has not, nor will not ever die? The penalty of sin is death. Guess Paul is right on original sin and the downfall of mankind through it. Jesus is right, according to your assertion, that free will exists too, since we,like Adam and eve, can choose to do whatever we want.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
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Dec 8, 2023, 10:27 AM
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so, did plants sin and that's why they die? Do bacteria die because of their sin?
Or does organic material just break down over time? We have solid evidence for that claim. No evidence in our bodies of 'sin' killing us.
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Oculus Spirit [93674]
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No, they don't have souls yet the curse of death for sin...
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Dec 8, 2023, 11:11 AM
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came into this world and created an addition factor of thermodynamics. Everything degrades over time. It's much more complicated than that but a science guy like you understand thermodynamics better than any other factor of science because Einstein said that 'If there is one immutable law it is the law of thermodynamics.
Surely you ponder on that daily.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: No, they don't have souls yet the curse of death for sin...
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Dec 8, 2023, 11:53 AM
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Oh that totally clears it up. Bacteria die because a woman ate an apple that was purposely placed where she could/would do so.
Thanks, totally clear now.
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Legend [17918]
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 2:51 PM
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Do you consider that mocking? If so, grow some thicker skin buddy.
Can religion not be questioned in a religion forum? Are you a dictator or something?
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Legend [17918]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 4:25 PM
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Lol... your mocking doesn't hurt my feelings. I learned a long time ago to step over the poop in my path.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 4:28 PM
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> Lol... your mocking doesn't hurt my feelings. I learned a long time ago to step over the poop in my path.
lol, so two things:
1. you brought it up
2. how is this not hypocritical?
You guys are hilarious.
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Legend [17918]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 5:00 PM
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Oh,look i get to high step again lol
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 5:01 PM
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It's called goose stepping and you really shouldn't...
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Legend [17918]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 5:04 PM
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Not marching...just strolling along...stepping over the poop... just like I really should.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 5:15 PM
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Lol “im morally superior but your also dog chit if you disagree with me”
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Legend [17918]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 8:13 PM
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Oh, look. The child is at it again.
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Commissioner [979]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
Dec 8, 2023, 8:45 PM
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ok boomer
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus
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Dec 8, 2023, 3:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Major difference between Paul and Jesus ] |
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"
so, did plants sin and that's why they die? Do bacteria die because of their sin?"
Very legitimate question there. Not that your others aren't, but this is something I've wondered a lot.
Animals too. They don't have the capacity to know right from wrong, yet they suffer even more than we do.
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