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Replies: 44
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Legend [16920]
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Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:03 PM
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Since Bennett is being discussed in another thread I thought it makes an interesting case study. Bennett came to UVA one season before Brownell came to Clemson. Let’s compare what they inherited:
Bennett took over a 10-18 team that had trended downward in wins multiple seasons. They had made the NCAA tourney twice in the preceding 12 seasons. Before that was the relatively successful Jeff Jones and Terry Holland eras. But, I guess depending on how old you are, UVA weren’t exactly a historical power. Terry Holland made them a winner. Clemson actually held a 22-19 advantage in the series prior to Holland’s arrival (since 1949 anyway - as far back as the Sports Reference matchup finder goes back). We’re 30-64 since. Maybe coaches matter more than history?
Brownell took over a team that had been built from having 4 overall losing seasons in the preceding 12 seasons to one that had won 20 games four seasons straight and had made the tourney 3 straight times.
Now let’s see what has happened.
In 2017-18, Brad easily had his best season. 25 wins and a Sweet Sixteen. Only his second NCAA tourney. The only season he would finish ranked - AP #20. Brad cashed in big time. He went from having $5.7 million remaining over 3 years to $15 million over 6. A $600,000 per year raise with a guaranteed average of $2.5 million per year.
In 2017-18 Tony Bennett made the NCAA tourney for the 5th straight year and 6th in 7 seasons. He finished in the AP top 25 five straight seasons including four in the top 10, three in the top 5. He was a 1 seed in the NCAA tourney 3 times. He also famously became the first 1 seed to lose to a 16 that season. After taking UVA to his first NCAA in 2012, he signed a contract extension through 2019 that would increase from $1.7 million to $1.9 by 2019. In 2014 UVA looked again to extend Bennett. Once again he rejected a raise, asked that additional funds be distributed amongst staff, and donated $500,000 to UVA. Again, after winning a National Title, Bennett rejected an offer to increase his salary. To this day, his base compensation is lower than Brad Brownell’s. When you read that his salary is $4.15 million that is based on what he has been paid after performance incentives - which have been very well earned.
It’s the coach dummies. We actually sink more more into base compensation for Brownell than Virginia does, to this day, in Bennett. The $2 million+ in bonuses he earns are easily recouped by Virginia. It’s not that Clemson doesn’t support basketball. It’s that we’ve been throwing good money after bad with a coach that hasn’t made half the commitment to Clemson that Bennett has made to UVA.
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Oculus Spirit [80419]
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He must be the highest paid coach in the nation and uva must have
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:15 PM
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the best facilities and fan support in the nation and they also must have brought their pep band.
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Freshman [1]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 12:16 PM
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Hopefully our Athletic Director is reading this. It seems that our athletic director throws money around with little to no rationale. We could have a much better coach with the funds that we expend.
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110%er [7200]
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Bennet is who we thought brownledll would be
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:17 PM
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and the school, fans and his future baby mame gave him more than enough time to hit the hole but he caint do it. We should have gotten Smart if we could have.
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CU Medallion [57163]
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This is not a fair comparison.
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:22 PM
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Bennett is a good coach.
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Legend [16920]
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^ flawless***
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:42 PM
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Legend [17615]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:25 PM
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Neither is among the living from a career perspective. But Bennett was some crooner. 
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Orange Blooded [3050]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:35 PM
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Bennett left his heart in SF. I believe Brownells heart is still with his team and in Clemson. Me, my own self..I would keep him. YMMV.
Go Tigers
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CU Medallion [61846]
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110%er [8003]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:28 PM
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No doubt UVA won the lottery when choosing Bennett as their HC. As an alternative, if we look at WF or NCSU or GT there will be a revolving door of coaches, big buyouts and unrealized dreams (there are tons of other schools in the same situation). All schools with better basketball history than CU. Wondering why other schools don't do what UVA did in terms of choosing the perfect candidate as their coach to ensure long term success? Also why Texas, Florida, and USC cant seem to find that perfect football coach so they can once again be elite? Per Viz's UVA example, it seems pretty easy...
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Legend [16920]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:45 PM
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It’s not easy at all. But Clemson has a guy that we know, without reservation, is never going to build a championship program. And our AD has decided tacitly conceding defeat at basketball is fine. Which would make sense if we weren’t paying the guy who isn’t Tony Bennett, Tony Bennett money. Brownell’s base compensation is higher than Bennett’s. That’s not just crazy - that’s negligent.
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110%er [8003]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 1:43 PM
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It’s not easy at all. But Clemson has a guy that we know, without reservation, is never going to build a championship program. And our AD has decided tacitly conceding defeat at basketball is fine. Which would make sense if we weren’t paying the guy who isn’t Tony Bennett, Tony Bennett money. Brownell’s base compensation is higher than Bennett’s. That’s not just crazy - that’s negligent.
I am wondering if Rick Barnes, who most consider the best basketball coach in our history, could have built a championship team had he stayed. Steve Spurrier, one of the greatest coaches in CFB history, could not win an SEC championship in Columbia.
Maybe CBB is overpaid but that has little to do with the discussion.
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 2:57 PM
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Barnes left because he couldn't recruit to Clemson.
He had various NBA level players come down to Clemson and someone else (UNC/Maryland/Duke) for a few players and every single one chose "not Clemson."
We were finalists for Steve Francis and Brendan Haywood among others.
Any successful coach also needs talent and for whatever reason Barnes couldn't bring it to Clemson.
He saw the writing on the wall and left for a better job.
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Orange Blooded [3990]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 4:11 PM
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That second sentence down. Huh?
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Legend [16920]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 2:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell ] |
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Spurrier got close (made a championship) and was in the twilight of his career. I don’t doubt he could have if he’d come earlier. I certainly believe Rick could have. There is no chicken curse at Carolina and there is no invisible ceiling on our basketball program. Bad decisions and bad investments by athletic directors and the boards that enable them in an ultra-competitive marketplace are what have held us back.
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CU Medallion [65528]
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Tony Bennett was a better singer, for shore. Don't know what kind of a coach
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:32 PM
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he might have been. Doesn't matter now, he may have left his heart in San Francisco, but his body is in Calvary Cemetery in New York, New York.
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110%er [7975]
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This will not resonate well in the chambers of one Judge Keller.***
Feb 6, 2024, 12:43 PM
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Legend [16920]
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Re: This will not resonate well in the chambers of one Judge Keller.***
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Feb 6, 2024, 12:47 PM
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He won’t see it (so he claims) because he ignores everyone that actually uses facts to argue with him.
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Orange Blooded [3719]
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It's a good post, but
Feb 6, 2024, 12:56 PM
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It should also be pointed out that UVA Hoops has a MUCH richer history, including multiple final fours
They also have a FAR greater fanbase of support for the hoops program
All of the rest of it is really accurate, good job and Go Tigers
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Legend [16920]
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Re: It's a good post, but
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Feb 6, 2024, 1:05 PM
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I literally pointed out that the history started with Terry Holland in the 1970s. We had a winning record against them until then. Jeff Jones had some success following Holland but had wild swings - two overall losing seasons over his last three seasons. Pete Gillen and Dave Leitao had them wander the desert for more than a decade. Tony Bennett had 3 years coaching experience prior to coming to UVA - from Washington State of all places. He played ball at a small college in Wisconsin. My entire is that it’s the coach that matters. Find your guy and do whatever it takes to keep them when you do. But doubling down on someone who clearly isn’t “the guy” is stupidity. And we’ve been doing it a decade.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 1:28 PM
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Some people aren't going to like this. It's clear, concise, accurate, and the absolute truth.
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Orange Blooded [4498]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 1:33 PM
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Coaching matters. It just does. Good summary.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 1:54 PM
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I don't know that anyone is saying that the head coach doesn't matter. The head coach absolutely matters, but you can't bring up Bennett without bringing up the litany of programs that have a revolving door at the head coach position. It's a disingenuous argument. There is no guarantee that hiring [insert coach here] will have the desired effect. In fact, it could have potentially disastrous consequences of worse success and financial issues.
The fans who can't grasp that Neff must consider other considerations than strictly W/L are delusional.
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Legend [16920]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 2:47 PM
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It was a rebuttal to disenguous arguments about how much more Virginia invests in their program. First, it’s a lie. If you examine our P/L statements Clemson makes very similar investments in basketball. Why their actual operate expense is about $4 million more than ours is mostly accounted for in the costs of incentives (that are met) and the expenses that go along with making it into the tourney, often more than a weekend. Their assistant salaries are higher - but that was to retain them, not recruit magical ones. Virginia also tends to stick around the ACC tourney a lot longer than us too.
There was nothing disingenuous about it. Clemson had a winning record against Virginia before Terry Holland took over. Do you think they had some come to Jesus moment and decided to outspend everyone on basketball and Holland was just the beneficiary? No. They found a good coach and he brought them to a new level of success. His successor did okay but struggled. The next two coaches flopped. Then they found Tony Bennett.
Pretending there is some secret sauce in your history is silly excuse making. It didn’t help Matt Doherty. It didn’t help Bill Guthredge. It hasn’t gotten Indiana back to a national final in nearly 40 years. And it isn’t gonna help Jon Scheyer. He can either coach or he can’t. And no, there are no guarantees. Who has ever said there are? But there is more than enough evidence that it isn’t happening under Brownell. And if you are not at least going through the pretense of competing for championships then what are you doing? Why would we ever fire a non-revenue sport coach for performance if we’re gonna let our #2 revenue generating sport lumber in a malaise for a decade.
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Legend [16158]
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Having a history of success, regardless of the state of the program at the time,
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Feb 6, 2024, 2:53 PM
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is one of the things that made has Dabo so successful and he said as much...Knowing that we won a title almost 30 years ago still made a difference to him when we hired him...It's foolish to think a school's history doesn't matter
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Legend [16920]
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Re: Having a history of success, regardless of the state of the program at the time,
Feb 6, 2024, 3:02 PM
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You may as well believe in voodoo. Absolutely nothing that contributed to our 1981 title or success under Ford had any relevance in 2009 when we made Dabo permanent head coach. are you actually implying that position coach Dabo Swinney weighed our history when offered the opportunity to take the coaching job here? That is one of the more insane things I’ve seen posted here. Would he talk it up as a “look at what’s been done” thing - sure. But that had nothing to do with him taking the job or winning his championships.
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Legend [16158]
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The fact that it had been done once meant it could be done again and it
Feb 6, 2024, 3:10 PM
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meant something to him and he has said as much
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Legend [16920]
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Re: The fact that it had been done once meant it could be done again and it
Feb 6, 2024, 4:57 PM
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That’s not the same as saying it’s why he took the job or why he was able to do what he did. Correlation =/= causation.
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Legend [16158]
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You would accuse me of calling Dabo a liar if the tables were turned***
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Feb 6, 2024, 5:08 PM
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Legend [16920]
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Re: You would accuse me of calling Dabo a liar if the tables were turned***
Feb 6, 2024, 5:17 PM
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No, I wouldn’t. You are making an inference.
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Legend [16158]
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Nope...you would say I'm calling Dabo a liar...you would also say I thought
Feb 6, 2024, 6:26 PM
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I knew more than the HC...Deny it all you want, but we both know it to be true
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 2:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell ] |
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NC State canned Herb Sendek because he was only making the NCAAs and sweet 16s and not Final Fours like UNC and Duke.
If you want to pick on NC State and Wake then also add FSU and Miami who have all found long term successful coaches who make the NCAAs regularly.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 3:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell ] |
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Obviously a new basketball coach may not pan out. But SOMETHING has got to be done about the present situation. Continuing with Brownell is just not a viable option.
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110%er [7535]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 2:49 PM
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What's their head to head record?
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Legend [16920]
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Brownell is 3-17 all time against Bennett***
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Feb 6, 2024, 4:58 PM
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110%er [7535]
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Re: Brownell is 3-17 all time against Bennett***
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Feb 6, 2024, 5:32 PM
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That's not very good, aye? I think most fans have seen enough.
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Legend [16733]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 2:54 PM
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Plus Brad can’t sing worth a ####
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110%er [5483]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 3:57 PM
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But he is in fact good at yelling at his players and cussing.
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All-In [25008]
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Bennett is an elite coach
Feb 6, 2024, 2:55 PM
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He also made Washington State very good for the years he was there. They have been a nothing program before him and since he left.
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Legend [16920]
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Re: Bennett is an elite coach
Feb 6, 2024, 5:02 PM
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The made an NCAA Finals in the 1940s. Some on here argue that’s equal in importance to who your coach is. And yes, Bennett is an elite coach. And yet he reinvests in UVA and his assistants and takes a lower base salary than Brownell. The post was in reaction to JK insisting that UVA’s success is because they invest more in basketball - which isn’t really true if you dig deeper.
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110%er [5683]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 3:18 PM
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CU Guru [1277]
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Excellent breakdown
Feb 6, 2024, 3:39 PM
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Facts don’t lie and the past is a good indicator of the future
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
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Feb 6, 2024, 5:26 PM
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Excellent job, Viztiz. Brownell simply has not gotten it done.
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Legend [17681]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 5:32 PM
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With the money he has banked while coaching Clemson, there's a good chance he doesn't really give a crap if he gets fired.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Tony Bennett versus Brad Brownell
Feb 6, 2024, 5:41 PM
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Likely very true.
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