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All-TigerNet [12252]
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Haiti - maybe there is some truth to the legend about them making a pact with
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Mar 12, 2024, 8:17 AM
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the Devil to rid themselves of the French that now results in a permanent state of Haitian suffering and chaos...
https://www.voanews.com/a/us-commits-100-million-more-to-multinational-force-for-haiti-amid-violence/7523790.html
I spent some time in Haiti immediately after the 2010 earthquake. Even then it was hard to tell what was earthquake damage from what was just everyday Haiti. It didn't take long to see just how corrupt the Haitian government and society was/is. I have never seen such a lost cause as Haiti brought on by institutional and multi-generational corruption that is reflected throughout their whole society. Mix all that corruption with high crime and a permanent "handout" mentality and you get a place that is a permanent train wreck of epic proportions. If the Devil were to run a place - it would be like Haiti....
So... be assured - any money we send to Haiti will go into a sink hole where some Haitian politician or supposed "do gooder" will end up pocketing those borrowed/printed US tax dollars with a mere pittance of it ever making it to anything useful (i.e. food/reconstruction/security).
Providing more US money will not change a thing in Haiti. At most it might buy a temporary easing of the outward appearance of the violence/corruption but it is a certainty that Haiti will fall back into it's normal chaotic state the moment the US/UN funds have been fully pilfered and run out.
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Heisman Winner [137978]
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I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you a little here.
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Mar 12, 2024, 9:07 AM
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You're not the first poster I've heard say that in here, either. Somebody was talking about how South Americans (Venezuelans specifically, if I recall) have a different culture than Americans, and their culture would start changing ours in a negative fashion if enough numbers were added to the US population. People--that is, individuals, and communities--aren't corrupt by nature, or in their souls, nor are they born corrupt. And living under corrupt governments doesn't alter a person's being into being used to or accepting of corruption, or even further, as you and the other poster seemed to be insinuating, actually promoting it as a cultural norm. That's a pretty awful thing to say about a large swath of people anywhere on the planet. Nobody chooses to live in squalor (and that's what it is in most of Haiti, it's far worse than poverty), and they're certainly not OK with it as a cultural norm because they've lived under corruption for generations.
That said, I do appreciate you posting the article, and will pass along to my Haitian boss/mentor. I'll keep your thoughts to myself as I don't think he'd be too thrilled to learn that corruption and handouts are a very part of his moral fiber.
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All-TigerNet [12165]
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Imma going to agree a little with you both
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Mar 12, 2024, 9:17 AM
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Humans are social creatures and as such, tend to acclimate to the environment around them. I do have to agree that unless a huge cultural/political shift occurs in Haiti (speaking with missionaries from the area a few years ago), money will be absorbed and little benefit obtained. On the converse, individuals there, if they can escape and find themselves in another situation, may have a different outcome. Same way that if someone from the US moves to Haiti, with little or no resources and no support from abroad, likely will find themselves either victims of or participants of corruption, just to survive.
I don't think people choose to live in squalor, unless they have accepted it as the local norm and don't see a way out.
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All-In [42197]
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Re: I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you a little here.
Mar 12, 2024, 11:57 AM
[ in reply to I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you a little here. ] |
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That's a pretty awful thing to say about a large swath of people anywhere on the planet.
It also neglects, in comparing any nation like that to the U.S., a stark contrast to the structure of our nation, our history, and our economic prowess built over time. It's akin to a player on the Kansas City Chiefs criticizing a Pop Warner team for not playing up to their level.
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Hall of Famer [24111]
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Re: I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you a little here.
Mar 12, 2024, 12:46 PM
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You could also compare them to a country that is located on the same island. I used to be pretty close with a family that worked extensively with helping Haiti create some agriculture. The mom of my friend pretty much lived in Haiti for years. As much as they had a heart for those people, my buddy would tell you that the Haitians have a culture of laziness and corruption. Doesn't mean everyone in Haiti is like that, but enough to realize there are cultural issues. They did not get to the point they are by accident.
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All-TigerNet [12252]
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I'm assuming your Haitian boss/mentor ain't living in Haiti....
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Mar 12, 2024, 10:28 PM
[ in reply to I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you a little here. ] |
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If so - why is he here in the USA? Could it be he left Haiti to escape their constant state of corruption, crime, and general chaos for a better life? He might actually agree with me that Haiti has a cultural societal corruption problem...
For those of you not happy with my assessment of Haiti, I take no pleasure in stating Haiti is a corrupt society. But at least I am making this statement from personal interactions and experience in Haiti and not from some purely academic exercise. Specifically from my experiences when I was sent to Haiti to help Haitians recover from a devastating earthquake. The corruption I encountered along with the crime and "do nothing but beg" mentality was very real and overwhelming in it's magnitude. And yes - I interacted with all levels of Haitian society - from the unemployed Cité Soleil resident to those in the Haitian uppercrust who are favored by the US diplomats.
IMO, Haiti has such an ingrained, long lasting societal corruption that it has resulted in few rich with most of it's populace living in a squalor unlike any I have ever witnessed. This squalor existence has given rise to a multi-generational hopelessness among large numbers of its populace. The result of that hopelessness has largely resulted in two subcultures:
1. A lazy mental malaise subculture of just wanting a handout because they will never be able to improve their condition no matter what they do - so why try...
OR...
2. Extreme anger that leads them to violence and other criminal enterprises usually as members in a gang.
Am I saying everyone in Haiti is lazy/bad/corrupt - of course not. But - as a whole - their society is corrupt and has been for multi-generations to the point that they are in a civilizational death-spiral that no amount of outside Western aid or money is going to fix.
We (the outside world) have been sending aid/money to Haiti for generations and yet Haiti never improves. Simply put - the outside aid/money to Haiti ain't working. So we can candy coat it all we want but the reason Haiti never improves is that their culture of corruption and its downstream affects have bred a permanent internal state of chaos and apathy.
Does it make any sense to continue down the same aid/money to Haiti path we have been doing only to see no real change?? Do we finally just let Haiti follow its own brutal path to a governance conclusion that may not be to our liking? OR is there a better way to assist Haiti in changing their culture of corruption other than pretending to sponsor "free/fair" Haitian elections and giving them money?
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Heisman Winner [137978]
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You make a lot of assumptions, and most of them appear to be wrong.
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Mar 13, 2024, 9:02 AM
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I'm absolutely certain he would take issue with your characterization of Haitian people and Haitian culture.
Am I saying everyone in Haiti is lazy/bad/corrupt - of course not. But - as a whole - their society is corrupt and has been for multi-generations to the point that they are in a civilizational death-spiral that no amount of outside Western aid or money is going to fix.
"I'm not saying they're ALL bad people, just like 98% of them, or maybe a little more."
My longtime friend, mentor, and occasional boss travels back to Haiti regularly, and his foundation, Universal Learning Centre, has constructed and stocked 3 functional libraries in Haiti since 2010, projects I spent several years working on with him. It's a pretty "no shit" statement to say that there's more opportunity for success in the US than in Haiti, but that's a far cry from "escaping". Being successful in the US affords the opportunity to work toward lifting up your native home. Why do you think millions of immigrants try to come to the US? In his case, through grassroots education in the form of libraries, entities that we take for granted (and have no use for anymore) that simply do not exist in Haiti. To claim that these children opening books for the first time are corrupted souls is pretty jawdropping.
Your assessment of extreme poverty is...wild. People are either end up in exteme laziness, or extreme crime. "Gosh, where are all the hard workers? Where is the pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps mentality? This is definitely a cultural thing!"
I'm not even remotely Haitian and even I find that extremely insulting. It doesn't matter how hard you work (at what?) or how willing you are to do hard work, IF THERE ARE NO JOBS THAT PAY MONEY. And there aren't, because of corrupt leadership. And in populous environments where no opportunities for work exist, crime is almost invariably the most promising path to putting food on tables. Which criminals are the most successful? The most brutal and feared ones. This is a short trip from point A to point B, and this is true in the US and the rest of the world as well. Painting an entire country of people as either worthless, lazy adults or murderous criminals is....something.
Put yourself in an average Haitian adult's position, in a poverty-stricken community. You didn't do anything to be in this place and time besides be born. What would you do? Get a nonexistent job at the corner store making minimum wage? You know firsthand that even those jobs don't exist. What are you left with? A bunch of foreigners telling you what a piece of shit you are, apparently.
Grow a little empathy, man.
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All-TigerNet [12252]
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How many days have you spent in Haiti??
Mar 14, 2024, 8:09 AM
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What areas did you visit? What did you do in Haiti?
I didn't just make my opinions up from thin air. I spent time on the ground helping these people with engineering projects (construction and clearing rubble), getting communications re-established (the undersea commo cables had been severed), and getting supplies and NGOs safely to areas to provide food and water to the people.
But I guess you believe I should just ignore my own experience in dealing with the Haitian people and their societal system and just say "it's all good - here's some more money and aid - don't change a thing Haiti - your culture, class system, and governance is acceptable just the way it is"...
As far as empathy - right after the earthquake hit and just before I departed on a military flight for Haiti, the wife and I gathered clothes/canned goods from our neighborhood for the Haitians. We delivered an SUV full of stuff to a collection point in "little Haiti" in Miami. Haitian relatives living in the USA had set up a collection point there and were among the first organizing a civilian relief effort. So one can still have empathy and yet see a country and its culture as it really is. The two are not mutually exclusive....
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Hall of Famer [24111]
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Re: You make a lot of assumptions, and most of them appear to be wrong.
Mar 14, 2024, 8:26 AM
[ in reply to You make a lot of assumptions, and most of them appear to be wrong. ] |
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- And there aren't, because of corrupt leadership. And in populous environments where no opportunities for work exist, crime is almost invariably the most promising path to putting food on tables. Which criminals are the most successful? The most brutal and feared ones.
If there are generations of the above, then at some point, that is the culture.
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Hall of Famer [20542]
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Re: I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you a little here.
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Mar 14, 2024, 8:50 AM
[ in reply to I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you a little here. ] |
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I don't think that's what he said.
I don't think the Haitians are by nature any more corrupt than anyone else. They're just folks...just like anybody else. Just like us.
But cultures are built on inherited - as in, passed-down - beliefs, social norms, and social behaviors. And those can absolutely go toxic. The Azteca once thought it was dandy-keeno-fine and normal to rip the hearts out of captives (by the tens of thousands) and toss them off pyramids as sacrifices to their Gods. The Carthaginians once threw their first-born children into burning cauldrons in service to Muloch...which bothered even the less-than-squeamish Romans so bad they burned Carthage to the ground and salted its fields so nobody could ever rebuild the city again. There's a thousand other examples of throughout history of cultures embedded with ultimately self-defeating norms and mores. Some of them even exist today. There's elements of our own culture that are toxic and ultimately will be self-defeating unless we progress and evolve. And once a culture has gone toxic past a certain point, that culture seems to lose the ability to course-correct and getting it back is really, really hard if not impossible. Was there any force short of near-annihilation that would have stopped the Azteca or Carthaginians from behaving as they did towards others, or were they too far gone?
In that regard, would you not agree that Haiti has become a culture that's toxified and getting it back is going to be a labor of Hercules? And who would willingly take it on?
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Hall of Famer [24809]
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Orange Blooded [4790]
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Re: Haiti - maybe there is some truth to the legend about them making a pact with
Mar 12, 2024, 12:45 PM
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You can lead a horse to water......
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