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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 11:54 AM
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Instead of posting this in the mega thread I thought I'd post it on it's on to make sure the usual suspects see it...
What does it matter if Jesus was god or just the son of god? Love your neighbor.
What does it matter if the bible as a whole is god's word or just some of it? Love your neighbor.
What does it matter if people can reach heaven through means other than Jesus? Love your neighbor.
I just don't understand this attitude that every little nook and cranny of doctrine has to be correct.
For gods sake just love your neighbor.
ClemsonTiger1988®
HuntClub®
CUintulsa®
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Campus Hero [13749]
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Love you too Big Dog.***
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Mar 15, 2025, 12:01 PM
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Namaste and AMEN!
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Mar 15, 2022, 2:38 PM
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Seriously. I couldn't agree more.
The problem I have with the fundamentalist Christianity I grew up with is that the whole focus is "getting saved" and "accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior". All else was ultimately forgiven if you just did that, so THAT 90% of sermons and messages were about that. Sure, things like love and kindness and forgiveness for each other as a result of reflecting God's love for us were a part of the teaching, but were waaaayyy down the list well behind "getting saved" and "bringing others to Christ". For some reason God created all of us in a way that would result in most of us burning in hell for eternity. I never understood why the only or best way to fix that was to come here in human form himself, or send his beloved son, depending on how you understand that, to be tortured and slaughtered, as if an all-powerful God HAD to do it that way.
Once I was old enough to realize what was going on, none of that made one lick of sense to me, and I still think it is preposterous. I now believe that God loves us unconditionally and would never allow permanent torture in hell based off of one chance on earth to get it right or wrong. It's absurd. God loves us, and we are extensions/children of God, and we are to love God and each other as well. Love. Forgiveness. That's it.
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110%er [3895]
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Re: Namaste and AMEN!
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Mar 16, 2025, 7:47 AM
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You clearly have a belief in God and believe He loves you. If you don't believe the God of the Bible and Jesus of the New Testament, what is the basis or authority you have for these beliefs?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Just like you and everybody else, my beliefs are the result of my unique life
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Mar 16, 2025, 3:59 PM
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experience and ability to access, absorb and process information.
As I became a young adult, I began to realize there was something wrong with the concept of God I had been taught. There were obvious questions that I couldn't ignore. Not only were answers never offered, but the questions were never even asked. I realized that my church, and most others like it, were made up mostly of people who never qestioned anything the church taught. They never even thought about it; they just accepted it and went on with their lives. I couldn't do that, and here I am.
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110%er [3895]
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Re: Just like you and everybody else, my beliefs are the result of my unique life
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Mar 17, 2025, 7:46 AM
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You said "God loves us unconditionally" and "there was something wrong with the concept of God." It seems you believe in God but reject the Christian concept of God you were taught. The Christian looks to the Bible for God's authority in his life - whatever anyone thinks of the Christian concept of God or the Bible. I'm just wondering to what authority you look to arrive at your concept of God. In other words, you think God loves us, but based on what?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I don't have one single outside "source of authority" upon which I base
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Mar 17, 2025, 12:18 PM
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my beliefs. Some people find that authority in the bible, but that doesn't work for me. I came to this belief through a lifetime of experiences, study, prayer, and consideration. The bible is part of that.
I am satisfied that we can't possibly "know" anything much about God in the traditional sense. Personally, I feel it in may heart and soul and have used my brain to try and understand and make sense of it. That's all I can do. That's all any of us do. Even if you look to the bible as your source of authority, that is a decision that YOU make, so ultimately, we are all our own source of authority.
My dear parents were devout, bible-believing Christians. They were the most wonderful people in the world, so I totally respect how other good, intelligent people can have different ideas and opinions about all of this.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: I don't have one single outside "source of authority" upon which I base
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Mar 17, 2025, 1:25 PM
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>I came to this belief through a lifetime of experiences, study, prayer, and consideration.
I'd venture to say that every person in the Bible came to their beliefs in the same very way. Unless one is using their own interpretations and experiences, their putting their faith in someone else's interpretations and experiences.
Those are about the only two tools we've got; personal experience, and faith.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Of course, unless one is actually hearing the voice of God or otherwise
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Mar 17, 2025, 3:07 PM
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being directed by God (there's no way to know or verify), then that's it, our own judgement based on experience and ability to analyze and reason, or pure faith, or some combination of those.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 1:43 PM
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It matters because nobody loves his neighbor.
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Top TigerNet [29765]
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Your eternal destiny is why it matters.
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Mar 15, 2025, 3:54 PM
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An eternity with God, or an eternity outside of His presence.
Heaven or hell.
Eternity outside the presence of sin, or eternity of torment and regret.
That's why it matters.
You can believe whatever you want to believe. But, it matters whether your belief is correct or not.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Your eternal destiny is why it matters.
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Mar 15, 2025, 4:55 PM
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Have you ever thought that yours might be wrong?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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They may be. Nobody knows.
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Mar 15, 2025, 6:20 PM
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That's a truth that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, so they convince themselves otherwise, or at least try to.
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Starter [287]
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Re: They may be. Nobody knows.
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Mar 15, 2025, 7:03 PM
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I also wonder if they ever ponder that when it comes down to it what they believe is mostly influenced by where they were born and to whom.
If Bret was born in India there is a high likelihood he would be a Hindu. If the Middle East say, maybe a flavor of Muslim. Israel, a Jew. Various places in the Far East a Buddhist perhaps?
I do find it interesting that people can be so dang sure in their beliefs when it was mostly chance.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Or if they were born in China a hundred years before Jesus, they would have no
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Mar 15, 2025, 7:26 PM
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idea who he was, like millions of other people. They would know nothing about the Hebrew God or the right rules or commandments. They were just doomed to hell through being born in the wrong place and time.
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Top TigerNet [29765]
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I think the point is, you state all of that as if it is an accepted fact and not
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Mar 16, 2025, 4:10 PM
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just your personal belief. You gave your opinion, which is a matter of faith, not knowledge or fact.
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Top TigerNet [29765]
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A matter of faith, I agree.
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Mar 16, 2025, 4:55 PM
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I use faith every day. When I type a reply to a message on T-net, I have faith that it will get posted. When I flip a light switch to the on position, I have faith that the light will come on. When I sit in a chair I have faith it will hold me and not collapse.
Sometimes the chair collapses and sometimes the ight doesn't come on. My faith was wrong.
As for Christianity, my faith is based on the overwhelming scientific evidence that the universe was created by a timeless, immaterial, spaceless, powerful, intelligent and personal being. And, the overwhelming evidence is that life did no spontaneously come from non-life without the work of that same sort of being.
Now, that gives me evidence of the existence of a super-natural being. As for why that super-natural being is the God of the Bible, I'll explain it this way: When a man says that he will be killed and buried and three days later he will rise again, and that is exactly what happens, I tend to believe him.
My faith is not blind. My faith is reasonable and rational based on overwhelming evidence. But, it is still faith.
I admire the faith of an atheist. I could never have that much faith without having evidence to support it.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Um, no.
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Mar 16, 2025, 5:24 PM
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my faith is based on the overwhelming scientific evidence that the universe was created by a timeless, immaterial, spaceless, powerful, intelligent and personal being. And, the overwhelming evidence is that life did no spontaneously come from non-life without the work of that same sort of being.
That is your opinion. There is no such scientific or scholarly consensus.
My faith is reasonable and rational based on overwhelming evidence.
Again, in your opinion. It is also my opinion that all of this is the result of some creative energy/being/God that exists in a higher, spiritual, eternal dimension. I too think it's the most reasonable explanation, but I don't claim that scientific or historical evidence is on my side. Just like you, it is based on my unique, cumulative life experience and ability to access and process information. I may be wrong, but that's the best I can do, and I understand and appreciate why other people have very different opinions. None of us has any right or justification to speak from a position of authority or way to confirm our own opinions, or know who is right or wrong.
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Top TigerNet [29765]
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The universe had a beginning.
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Mar 16, 2025, 6:21 PM
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Time, space and matter had a beginning. Even atheist scientists agree that is almost a certainty.
So, you have to options:
1. Nothing took nothing and created something out of nothing.
OR
2. The universe was created by something or someone.
Which one makes more sense based on the available scientific evidence? Which one takes less faith to believe?
Scientific procedure uses "cause and effect." What was the cause of the creation of the universe?
Note: I'm not trying to convince you to believe as I do. I'm just trying to defend that my belief is consistent with all known sceintific and empirical evidence.
What evidence is your belief, whatever it is, based on?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Re: The universe had a beginning.
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Mar 16, 2025, 6:33 PM
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. Nothing took nothing and created something out of nothing.
OR
2. The universe was created by something or someone.
Which one makes more sense based on the available scientific evidence? Which one takes less faith to believe?
I believe 2 makes more sense, but there is no such scientific consensus. You'll have to ask them why.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: A matter of faith, I agree.
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Mar 16, 2025, 5:44 PM
[ in reply to A matter of faith, I agree. ] |
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I admire the faith of an atheist. I could never have that much faith without having evidence to support it.”
Lol.
First, I think myself and Smiling have both said we believe in some type of higher power. That’s not an atheist.
Second, I don’t think you truly believe anything you just said. I think you want to believe it really bad. I used to say things just like this, and I didnt truly believe it.
If there was overwhelming evidence as you say for the god of Christianity EVERYONE would believe it.
Just like EVERYONE knows cigarettes cause cancer and alcohol ruins your liver. Those are universal truths because of the evidence.
That Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead and is the only way to eternal life is simply one of thousands of religious beliefs that human beings have held to over the history of our species.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: A matter of faith, I agree.
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Mar 16, 2025, 6:04 PM
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But bretfsu® don’t get me wrong…
I go to church and I love the people there. I love the fellowship and I love the message from Jesus.
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110%er [3895]
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Re: A matter of faith, I agree.
Mar 23, 2025, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to Re: A matter of faith, I agree. ] |
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There is overwhelming evidence man walked on the moon and that the holocaust actually happend, yet there are people who don't believe it. Are you sure that's the standard you want to apply to belief in the Christian God?
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: A matter of faith, I agree.
Mar 23, 2025, 9:09 AM
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What overwhelming evidence is there that the god of the Bible exists?
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110%er [3895]
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Re: A matter of faith, I agree.
Mar 23, 2025, 12:39 PM
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I didn't say overwhelming evidence for God exists. I'm challenging your suggestion that if there were such evidence, everyone would accept it.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: A matter of faith, I agree.
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Mar 23, 2025, 12:44 PM
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The vast majority of people would just like the things I mentioned if there are observable facts.
It does seem to me like there had to be some type of creator. Who or what that is I don’t think there is any hard evidence for.
When you dig into the Bible itself you find contradictions regarding god and the religion itself.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I do believe there was a creator. I just don't believe or understand why
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Mar 23, 2025, 2:18 PM
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an all-powerful, loving creator would set everything up in such a way that he knew would result in most of us, whom he supposedly loves, spending eternity in hayull, and his way around that was a bloody, torturous sacrifice of his son. There is something fundamentally wrong with that story, and that concept of God. Now, if God's power is indeed limited in some way that forces him to do it that way, let's quit calling him all-powerful, and discuss the things that are more powerful than him. If, however, one maintains that God is indeed all-powerful, all-knowing, and loves us, then you've got to come up with a better story.
I can see why ancient, much more isolated and uneducated people (no, they weren't stupid) came up with that, as it reflected their experience and understanding of the world. This is 2025, and unlike most people in those days, we are literate and have access to a relatively staggering amount of knowledge and information, and unlike most people in ancient times, can view and study the Bible in it's entirely, all of which naturally would result in a different view and understanding than the people who wrote it or the people it was written for.
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110%er [3895]
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Re: A matter of faith, I agree.
Mar 23, 2025, 7:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: A matter of faith, I agree. ] |
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If there were "observable facts" many of those people would still not believe. Jesus did miracles infront of people who didn't believe.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: A matter of faith, I agree.
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Mar 24, 2025, 7:28 AM
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Supposedly he did miracles. Again, you and I did not see for ourselves to make a decision.
Why would god give only a select few the chance to see it but make everybody else count on someone else’s story?
Makes no sense.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 4:54 PM
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>What does it matter if Jesus was god or just the son of god?
This is slightly tangential to your post but it does tie into God's nature as either a single entity or a Trinity. I was just reading it last week, and it's a third point of view we haven't looked at much yet, so it's still fresh in my mind.
The Muslim point of view is that there is one God, and that's it. Very simple. He was the God of Abraham, and the God of us.
Their logic runs like this..."What religion was Abraham? He wasn't Jewish, and he wasn't Christian. He simply believed in God, as we should.
They have further arguments as to why Moses was given the Law, and why Jesus was here, but behind it all, there has only been, and will only be, one God.
Here's a couple of verses from the Quran, Chapter 9:30
"The Jews said, “Ezra is the son of God,” and the Christians said, “The Messiah is the son of God.”
These are their statements, out of their mouths.
They have taken their rabbis and their priests as lords instead of God, as well as the Messiah son of Mary.
Although they were commanded to worship none but The One God.
There is no god except He. Glory be to Him; High above what they associate with Him."
There's a couple of really interesting takeaways from that passage. First, there must have been some Jews that idolized Ezra to some extent. That's nowhere else in any documentation that I'm aware of. Ezra was hugely important to the rebuilding of the Temple and Jerusalem after the Babylonian Exile. So, he probably was very, very popular, and deified by some.
Second, the Muslims DO refer to Jesus as the Messiah, but not as a divine being. That indicates they did see him as a messenger of God, and as a source of salvation via his message, but not via his own divinity. So that's a third idea of a Messiah. The Jewish view of the Messiah saves the nation, the Christian view of the Messiah saves the soul, and the Muslim view of the Messiah was as a human conduit to God.
It's ironic that just as the Jews saw idol worshipers as polytheists, Muslims see Christians as polytheists. Jewish polytheists worshiped other Gods, and Christian polytheists worship other people, ie, Jesus.
They hold that view to this day, and that is why mosques have none of the iconography of cathedrals, or portraits or statues of Mary, Peter, etc. in them. The ONLY one worthy of adoration or worship is God.
Pilgrims adorating the toe of St. Peter. That must drive Muslims CRAZY, lol.
It's an interesting question, and the root of Islam. What religion was the FATHER of Judaism, and Christianity, Abraham?
Did Abraham follow the Law of Moses? Did Abraham get baptized like Jesus? Abraham was OG religion. Their attempt is to get back to that. Just worship God, like Abraham did.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 5:06 PM
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What they all have in common:
Abraham didn't love his neighbor.
Not Moses.
Not any priest.
Not any imam.
Not any of the 12.
Not any of us.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 6:16 PM
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It is interesting when you look at the arrangement between Abraham and God. Love had nothing to do with it.
God said 'Worship me, and I'll give you earthly things. A kid, a nations, etc.' Nothing eternal was offered, and nothing earthly (like loving neighbors) was asked. Just, "Worship me, for this."
And Abraham was tested harshly on his loyalty via Isaac but was willing to kill him for GOD
Abraham is good to strangers in Gen but it wasnt a condition of his deal and its unclear if he loved the travellers or was just nice to them
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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That was the more ancient version of God as a warrior king, who demanded to
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Mar 15, 2025, 6:25 PM
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be worshipped and was prone to fits of extreme anger and retribution. It's not hard to see why Old Testament authors thought of him that way.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: That was the more ancient version of God as a warrior king, who demanded to
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Mar 15, 2025, 6:40 PM
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It is a noticeable difference in the tone of the OT vs the NT
Theres a WHOLE lot of smiting in the OT and not as much in the NT
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CU Medallion [20078]
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The Age of Grace on Earth through Jesus will not last
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Mar 16, 2025, 8:23 AM
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and then comes the wrath again... for those not rescued in Jesus.
BTW, the Jews do not believe in the Trinity either... "For the Lord our God is One." (Deut 6:4)
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: The Age of Grace on Earth through Jesus will not last
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Mar 16, 2025, 2:40 PM
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So how can you consider Deuteronomy to be the word of god then?
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Re: The Age of Grace on Earth through Jesus will not last
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Mar 16, 2025, 3:06 PM
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Because of the reference I made? I didn't say the Jews were correct.
Paul, a Pharisee (previously) explained:
Colossians 1:26
...the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: The Age of Grace on Earth through Jesus will not last
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Mar 16, 2025, 5:47 PM
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I’m sincerely confused.
The Old Testament is the word of god right? Jesus was a Jew correct?
If the statement you quoted in Deuteronomy…that the lord god is one…is incorrect, how can it be the word of god?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Another obvious contradiction that will be reverse engineered and a way
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Mar 16, 2025, 5:55 PM
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to explain it. Again, scripture is malleable enough and open to interpretation such that one can make say just about anything when the actual words as written are contradictory.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Because of sin.***
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Mar 16, 2025, 4:27 PM
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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It's absurd to be angry about something you not only know is going to happen
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Mar 16, 2025, 4:46 PM
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well ahead of time, but was part of your own design by choice. That God sounds like either a psychopath or a petulant child who designed and created a universe that would provide him with opportunities to throw hissy fits commit horrific acts of violence. Giving people a way out by forgiving them only after sacrificing his son (like ancient people sacrificed animals to appease a wrathful god ... hmmmmm) is no excuse for that behavior in the first place.
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Like your repeated and redundant questions about the Christian faith?
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Mar 16, 2025, 8:33 PM
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hmmmm
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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So you think creating and designing a universe so that includes people sinning
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Mar 16, 2025, 10:21 PM
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then having a fit of anger when it plays out exactly as you expected, is not bad or crazy behavior?
So let's say that somehow God didn't see it coming, and was understandably hurt and angry, his way of fixing it was to require a sacrifice to himself in the form of his son suffering a horrific death by being nailed to a cross?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
I think there's something wrong with that story.
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
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CU Medallion [20078]
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No, that is not what I think.***
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Mar 16, 2025, 10:57 PM
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Do you believe God knew what he was creating would include people sinning,
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Mar 17, 2025, 12:02 AM
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or did the sinning catch him off guard?
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CU Medallion [20078]
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God is never caught off guard. He knew you would be here too.***
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Mar 17, 2025, 7:27 AM
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The same as He knew Cain and Judas would be around. He gave them both opportunity to do other than they were going to do... they chose to do what they wanted anyway.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Then why is he mad when he included sin as part of his creation,
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Mar 17, 2025, 8:16 AM
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and knew exactly who would sin and when? Why is he so mad when it plays out exactly the way he knew it would? I mean unless he wants to have something to throw a fit about.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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I don't think God is mad at anything.
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Mar 17, 2025, 1:24 PM
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But if you do, why don't you have more concern about avoiding His anger? If you talk to Him the way you talk to me... that ain't going to help.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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YOU claimed that wrath was a characteristic of God .....
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Mar 17, 2025, 2:06 PM
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The Age of Grace on Earth through Jesus will not last and then comes the wrath again... for those not rescued in Jesus.
Again, for the 3rd or 4th time. Why would God have reason to be mad? You said earlier it was because of sin, and have dodged my question.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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I have made a lot of presentations about my faith and belief
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Mar 17, 2025, 7:12 PM
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In God. You keep asking the same old tiring circular questions that will get you nowhere. The answers provided, simply put, are just not acceptable to you. Thats fine with me. But if you keep asking the same questions, understand, you will keep getting the same answers.. provided I decide to answer any further at all.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I was under the impression you were interested in engaging in
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Mar 17, 2025, 7:31 PM
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in conversation about this subject, but not only do you refuse to answer the question, but you change your story along the way.
I guess you fooled me.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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I didn't fool you...
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Mar 17, 2025, 7:35 PM
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and you don't fool me either.
Want to talk football? We could probably find a lot to agree about on that subject.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 8:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: What does it matter? ] |
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Right. A story of God's making began with Abraham. All God ever asked of Abraham was to do as God asked - which is what faith is - and Abraham's response was episodes of obedience mingled with adultery, lying and self preservation. Or vice versa. God kept his part of the promise.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 9:33 PM
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But, curiously, God never asked Abraham to be moral, or follow any laws. He just said 'believe"
And Abraham did believe
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 9:36 PM
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what i mean is that all the law and commandments came later with moses
Abraham had none of those nor did Adam and eve and their kin
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 16, 2025, 12:04 AM
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Right. As you point out, there was no "Do not murder" commandment for Cain. Cain was nevertheless held accountable for killing Abel. On what basis could he be held accountable, if no law existed? How do you see that?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 16, 2025, 12:49 AM
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That's a great point.
It does raise the question, "How does one know what is allowable unless they are told?"
For instance, Adam and Eve were not told the consequences of eating the fruit until they did it. They were told not to do it, but did they think they would be chastised, or tossed out.
Similarly, was anyone who died in the flood aware they were even upsetting God until it was too late? The Law given to Moses made a lot of what was acceptable (or not) explicit, but there were a lot of generations between Adam and Moses. What was their guidance?
I'll have to think about that.
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 16, 2025, 1:32 AM
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A minor thing: Adam and Eve were told, "In the day you eat of it ...". But you are exactly right that they were not told about the hot tub being turned off.
You ask the right question, I think: "How does one know, unless they are told." Most philosophical debates about the existence and source of morality fail to ask the question that clearly, imo.
I'll propose my take on Cain. Looking at the entire story, from Gen to Jesus, I think Cain was held accountable for willfully being in the same rebellious position as his mom and dad. He decided for himself what was right and wrong, good and bad. Free moral agency (tree of knowledge of good and evil) is not an ability designed into humanity, which we were told, yet we demanded it.
In Cain's case, he fudged a bit on the offering, appearing to have sacrificed something, but had not. The legal definition of giving had not been provided, but he fudged on what God said do. IMO, God's reaction gets overlooked in the story: God wasnt even mad at Cain about it. God said, "What are you upset about? Next time do as Abel did, and everything will be fine." That, imo, is what seethed inside of Cain, that there was no reasoning with God on that point. God wasn't going to negotiate on the legalistic details. He instead said, "You both know what I asked for. Abel complied. You didnt. Learn from this." The only thing God did in that conversation was to deny Cain the ability to decide morality on that point. Cain couldnt take that, and killed Abel in his resentment.
How does one know unless one is told? I think we either acknowledge that truth/morality is external and exists because God does, or we take the only alternative, that we decide internally. In the former God tells us. In the latter, no one tells us except ourselves.
Cain's initial selfishness, and then bitterness, were the symptoms. The fall was the disease. The Commandments are the diagnosis: No one loves his neighbor.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 16, 2025, 2:16 AM
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I can imagine you thinking, "Okay, that sounds fine, but if the diagnoses so clearly points to the symptoms and disease, why didnt God just say that? Why the falderal in the middle, between Moses and Jesus? You mentioned the time period Adam-Moses. Fair question.
Two minor prelim points: I think God did tell it clearly in several places, and the time between Moses and Jesus wasn't as long as we imagine: was a little more than half the time between Jesus and today. But yes, yours is a fair question (at least as I imagine it). So:
An unexpected and fatal diagnosis from a doctor is rarely accepted immediately by the patient. We all know there is a process of denial, search for better news, self diagnosis, and novel treatment when none is actually available. Many patients never reach acceptance. The bible is the story of that process taking place on a sociological scale. A diagnosis was delivered to mankind, and the process took place in that scope. The story has to be told for us to individually see ourselves in it. Like a medical diagnosis, we too go through that process, with most never fully reaching acceptance.
No one loves his neighbor.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 16, 2025, 2:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: What does it matter? ] |
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Yes, I agree there must have been some understanding between God, Abel, and Cain over what an acceptable sacrifice was. God's reply heavily implies that:
Gen 4:7
"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
It has an interesting twist, though. It's not just that Cain chose to skimp. That language leads me to believe that Cain gave into the 'temptation' to skimp. Which would be consistent with the Jewish idea that man is not inherently bad, but he is VERY susceptible to external temptation. Just think how many stories there are in the Bible about temptation.
Sadly, Jubilees adds nothing further to the incident on that front, but it does add an "If you see something, say something" provision:
Jub 4:5
"Cursed is he who smites his neighbor treacherously, and let all who have seen and heard say so be it. The man who has seen and not declared it, let him be accursed as the other. For this reason we announce when we come before the Lord our God all the sin which is committed in heaven and on earth, and in light and in darkness, and everywhere."
Maybe the beginnings of Catholic confession?
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 16, 2025, 2:55 AM
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>No one loves his neighbor.
Many years ago someone told me, "If someone has to tell you to stop doing something, it's because you ARE doing it." By the same token, if someone has to tell you TO do something, it's because you are NOT doing it.
I'd say it's no coincident that Jesus's choice for his top two commandments were, 'Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself.'
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Cain knew exactly what he was doing when he killed his brother...
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Mar 16, 2025, 8:31 AM
[ in reply to Re: What does it matter? ] |
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Because he couldn't be the standard, he replaced what was (his brother) and then stood before God and stated, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
Think about how that statement balances between "Love God" and "Love your neighbor".
When God gives the standard, He still allows people to choose what they will do. "But temptation lies at the door, and its desire is for you. But you should rule over it."
The temptation to replace God's will with our own is a pillar in the foundation of sin. Even though one knows that sin's desire is for them - understood as meaning to [own] them - one still surrenders so easily and then complains about the consequence. I include myself in that statement as there is none who have not sinned.
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 16, 2025, 5:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: What does it matter? ] |
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The simplicity of the fall gets overlooked, I think. Devastating and identity changing, but simple. We looked to God for definition of good and bad, then we didnt. Dependent, then independent. Banishment from Eden sounds harsh, but self determination is what we asked for.
God said to Cain and Abel: "It is good for you to acknowledge that I provide for you. So, give some of your work back to me, to keep yourself reminded." It wasnt that Cain couldnt do it, but that he couldnt give up the right to decide to do it. So, for the reasons you said, he killed Abel.
To a person who admits this about himself, the bible makes sense. To one who doesnt, it doesnt.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Did God really ask for and expect sacrifices in the form of stuff or animals
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Mar 16, 2025, 6:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: What does it matter? ] |
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offered up on an altar, so to speak? Or is it more likely that the whole idea is an understandable product of the minds of ancient people with almost zero scientific understanding of anything, who simply saw gods as a more powerful extensions of themselves, and would demand fealty and dole out punishments if angered?
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Re: Did God really ask for and expect sacrifices in the form of stuff or animals
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Mar 16, 2025, 7:08 PM
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IE, we're more advanced in our thinking than them? Theoretically possible, but evidence would say not. Probably the opposite. But each person has to decide that for himself. Like Cain did.
A HS student today couldn't pass a 1930's college entrance exam. Extrapolate that how one will.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I don't know if we are "more advanced in our thinking"; I'm not sure I know
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Mar 16, 2025, 7:33 PM
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exactly what you mean. I'm specifically talking about how the world they lived in, icluding their lack of scientific, scholarly knowledge shaped their ideas about God, and how that is reflected in what they wrote that was eventually chosen to be included in the Bible we have today.
I agree that our ability to think and analyze and solve has decreased in recent years due to failures in our education system.
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Re: I don't know if we are "more advanced in our thinking"; I'm not sure I know
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Mar 16, 2025, 9:41 PM
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I'm just teasing with you.
Seriously, though, about 90% of Nobel Prize winners, who we can assume are rational thinkers and are aware of when things are written, are Christians or Jews. I might think twice about publicly proposing that Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn simply hadnt thought through the cultural differences.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: I don't know if we are "more advanced in our thinking"; I'm not sure I know
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Mar 16, 2025, 10:07 PM
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Jews?
I thought they had it all wrong?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I thought they were God's chosen people, and that's why Christians
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Mar 16, 2025, 10:23 PM
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were so protective of Israel.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: I thought they were God's chosen people, and that's why Christians
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Mar 17, 2025, 8:14 AM
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Well that's what doesn't make sense.
The were chosen by god, but they were blinded apparently by that same god.
They reject Jesus who is the only way to heaven but somehow and for some reason god is going to restore them.
So Jesus is not the only way to heaven. I guess that rule just applies to you and I.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: I thought they were God's chosen people, and that's why Christians
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Mar 17, 2025, 11:50 AM
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>The were chosen by god, but they were blinded apparently by that same god.
There is an odd theme running through the Bible that God isn't always on our side. I'm not sure what to think of it. I suppose if one attributes everything to God, that includes both the good and bad. Here's a few examples of God being not so good, and overriding man's free will...but why?
Exodus 9:12
"But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses."
Would Pharoah have listened to Moses's warnings if God himself had not hardened Pharoah's heart?
1 Kings 22:20
"And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
Why is God facilitating lies specifically in order to get King Ahab killed? Shouldn't that be Satan's job?
Ezekiel 14:9
"And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."
Why is God facilitating deception, when he says he will kill the deceiver? Does the guy even have a choice if God is deceiving him?
2 Thess 2:9
"[Satan] will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
So Satan tries to deceive man, and man might have seen through the deception, except that God himself deluded them so they believed the deception? What?
Those are very, very strange verses, and difficult to interpret. Why is God such an active participant, over and over, in deceiving man about God? Weird.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Some would say that you just aren't interpreting it correctly, because you
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Mar 17, 2025, 12:22 PM
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simply refuse to see what is so clear and obvious.
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Re: Some would say that you just aren't interpreting it correctly, because you
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Mar 17, 2025, 1:02 PM
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It's verses like this that makes one really question how the Jews saw God. To me, there is a VERY clear distinction between the OT view of God and the NT view of God. But there are some surprises. Consider this from Hosea. This feels very NT:
Hosea 6:6
"For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings."
Yet, in the end, God chose sacrifice over even his own son.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
For a God who can presumably do anything, to set up a system involving sacrifice seems pretty odd to start with. Wouldn't a "Thanks for the food, God" work, like we do today? It's not like God's going to eat the sacrifice anyway, or donate it to the needy. It's probably just going to go to waste.
And its even more odd that he chose sacrifice OVER his own son. What does God love more? Receiving sacrifice, or his own son? I guess the crucifixion answered that.
The verse says "For God so loved the world...", but the choice God made, from God's own rules, was to let Jesus die, or not, as sacrifice. Much in the way he tested Abram earlier. Even Jesus was caught by surprise. "Why hast though forsaken me?"
For emphasis, contrast that again with Hosea.
Hosea 6:6
"For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
Very strange.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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That's what I've been saying for years.***
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Mar 17, 2025, 1:55 PM
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Re: 90% may be Christians and Jews, but I bet there is some variation in
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Mar 17, 2025, 2:31 PM
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I know of only one who can change a subject faster than that. A sincere compliment.
First, the biblical story is " the understandable product of the minds of ancient people with almost zero scientific understanding of anything." Golly. Nobel winners like Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, to randomly pick one, weren't up to your insight, which might actually be the case, but I suggested I wouldn't run that comparison by the general public just yet.
Now you wonder if two people can differ in their reading of the bible. I bet you can add a third subject in one sentence. 
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I didn't change the subject, unless I'm a victim of mega-thread
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Mar 17, 2025, 3:31 PM
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disorientation (which is very possible).
The subject of this subthread, I thought, was "Did God really demand sacrifices or is that just how ancient man imagined him due to the culture and influence of the ancient world in which they lived?". I am offering that as a reasonable explanation for why God is presented that way in the old testament. I think it would be common for people in those days to think of God as vengeful warrior king who demanded obedience and worship and things like sacrifices in order to be appeased.
Cutting to the chase, your response was that Nobel Prize winners, who were 90% Jewish and Christian, had surely considered that and arrived at a different opinion, and that it's little ole me vs 90% of Nobel Prize winners.
My response is that just because they were Jews and Christians, it doesn't necessarily follow they had a different opinion from mine, as opinions vary significantly amongst those who wear the Christian label. Furthermore, even if they did, we know for a fact that there is quite a range of different opinions amongst highly intelligent people regarding the bible outside of Christianity, and what it is and what it means.
I thought that was the subject, and I never suggested anything about Szhltzqnkwein.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: I didn't change the subject, unless I'm a victim of mega-thread
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Mar 17, 2025, 5:16 PM
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I'll go you one better than that: using Nobel Prize winners as support for any idea - in this case that the OT writers were as sophisticated as we are - is a shameless, egregious appeal to authority. Guilty. I mean, they could all be wrong. I just wouldn't propose it.
What follows, btw, is a change of subject.
You have voiced an issue with the idea that the message of the OT is clear. A consistent thread (pardon the pun) running through your posts is that if you do not understand something, it is therefore not understandable. The bible is not clear to you, therefore it is not clear. And anyone who says it is clear is wrong, because it is not clear to you.
My 9th grade English Lit teacher somehow became convinced that my level of understanding of Shakespeare warranted a college admission threatening grade. Neanderthal. Her, not Shakespeare.
I think I have said several times that any of your understandings or lack of them are totally your business, with any of your opinions being equally valid as anyone else's. Discussing which opinions are more supportable is what this is about. If that is not acceptable to someone, he's in the wrong place.
As to whether the bible has an objective understanding, the first interaction between God and man is the story of mankind's creation. The bible starts with the Fall. The rest of the biblical story follows the Fall. It is therefore very rational to say that if one accepts his individual place in the Fall he will understand the biblical story, and if he doesn't, he wont. You might not agree with that. You might think the entire thing is made up, or that the Fall didn't occur. Fine.
However, if it is irritating to you to hear that, are you here to consider rational if differing ideas? Are you instead here to state your "it can't be understood" idea without challenge? Things can be understood. Truth does exist. Lack of understanding can exist because of unwillingness, bias, fear, and a dozen other reasons. That lack of understanding might be mine, might be yours. But if hearing that clarity is possible is irritating, are you here for some other reason?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Re: I didn't change the subject, unless I'm a victim of mega-thread
Mar 18, 2025, 10:58 AM
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You have voiced an issue with the idea that the message of the OT is clear. A consistent thread (pardon the pun) running through your posts is that if you do not understand something, it is therefore not understandable. The bible is not clear to you, therefore it is not clear. And anyone who says it is clear is wrong, because it is not clear to you.
Again, that is not at all what I believe or what I claim. For sure, it's not clear to me that it means what you think it means; it's not clear to a lot of people. A whole lot of sincere, highly intelligent people don't think it means what you think it means. By no means does that make me right or you wrong about what it actually means. I have never, ever thought or claimed that. I could just as reasonably put it this way to you:
You have voiced an issue with the idea that the message of the OT is not clear. A consistent thread (pardon the pun) running through your posts is that if you understand something, it is therefore understandable. The bible is clear to you, therefore it is clear. And anyone who says it is not clear is wrong, because it is clear to you.
I don't think that's true of either of us.
It is simply my OPINION that if the message were more clear, then there would not be so much disagreement about it.
Discussing which opinions are more supportable is what this is about. If that is not acceptable to someone, he's in the wrong place.
That's exactly what I'm doing. Voicing my opinion and why I think what I think. That involves questioning and challenging the opinions of others when I disagree or don't understand. As you said, if a person can't handle that, they are in the wrong place. That's all any of us who are here, acting in good faith, are doing. Some are not, and simply are here to "preach", not to engage and participate with an open mind. I may very well be wrong about a lot of things, but I can't grow and get it right unless I can understand how and why I'm wrong. All of my thoughts and questions are presented with that in mind.
If, when you say the OT writers were as sophisticated as we are, you mean that their brains were just as capable of thinking and processing information and pondering philosophical and spiritual questions and abstract ideas as we are, I don't dispute that. What I am saying is that the world they lived in, which was very different from ours, undoubtedly influenced their thinking and resulting conclusions.
I don't think the fall occurred. I do think it is made-up.
As far as Nobel Prize winners go, many did not believe in the God of the Bible, including Einstein. You imply that I'm being foolishly presumptuous if I disagree with a group of Nobel Prize winners that have been labeled as Christian or Jew, but may not agree with the version of God or biblical understanding being proposed in this thread, but YOU have the audacity to dispute Einstein? I'm joking of course, to make a point. You have every right to disagree with Einstein about God and religion, and if you do, it doen't make your position any less valid. I would never seriously advance such an argument, as there are enough Nobel winners on all sides of this issue to support all of them. There is widespread, legitimate disagreement amongst brilliant people when it comes to God and religion. To suggest otherwise is laughable.
But if hearing that clarity is possible is irritating, are you here for some other reason?
No, I have never, ever thought, said, or implied that clarity is not possible. That is your reaction to being challenged. As I have stated repeatedly, and I guess you missed, sincere, highly intelligent people read the Bible and interpret it differently. Some people see a crystal clear message, others see contradictions and a lack of clarity. So I have always been fine with it when people believe it's clear; I'm just trying to understand how and why they think that, which may involve questions and disagreements along the way. I am perfectly fine with that too. I don't think it's fair, and it's certainly not accurate, to conclude that because of that, I don't like being challenged, or I'm here for "other reasons".
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
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Re: I didn't change the subject, unless I'm a victim of mega-thread
Mar 19, 2025, 10:58 AM
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I do not see that answer as honest. Above, you posted: "Some would say that you just aren't interpreting it correctly, because you simply refuse to see what is so clear and obvious."
In the thread, it was a derisive comment about somebody on the board. Rather than talk to them, you talked about them to someone else. You have to decide for yourself what all that reveals about you, but one thing it does show is that you become irritated when someone suggests that what you call indecipherable is actual very understandable.
That is an objectively true comment, by the way. I could claim all I wanted, and did, that Shakespeare was not understandable. I got assigned, generously, a 'C'. Some people find Shakespeare intuitively enlightening, while others say he makes little sense. The latter group is wrong, due to the mere existence of the former group. All the latter group can truthfully say is that Shakespeare makes no sense to them. No matter how well the latter group can defend their lack of understanding, he does make sense to many people, in ways some people never grasp. Ms Mossingo would likely give me another C today.
So, you believe the story of the Fall was made up. That is very fine. You wont find me trying to talk you out of that, unless you choose to discuss why a person might believe it. But that is your business. It is also why the biblical story doesnt make sense to you. When one recognizes himself in the Fall, the biblical story almost writes itself. When one doesnt see himself in it, the story makes no sense. That is a true statement.
All you can truthfully say is that the story makes no sense to you. Few, if any, will argue with you about that. No reason to be irritated at, and gossip about, those who say it does make sense and can explain why.
TLDR: You personalized what was a discussion about documents.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Hold on CU . . .
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Mar 17, 2025, 4:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: 90% may be Christians and Jews, but I bet there is some variation in ] |
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Now you wonder if two people can differ in their reading of the bible. I bet you can add a third subject in one sentence.
It all has to do directly with the subject we are discussing in this thread.
"Did God really want sacrifices, or is that just the way ancient man imagined God?"
If you take the bible as literal, inerrant truth, then yes, God wanted burnt offerings and sacrifices. If you don't believe the bible is literal, inerrant truth, then a God who wants burnt offerings or sacrifices is likely just how ancient people imagined God to be.
I don't understand how you possibly saw that as a different subject. I can't add a 3rd until I've added a 2nd.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: Hold on CU . . .
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Mar 17, 2025, 5:21 PM
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Is this where I say, "I don't understand!"?
Thread fatigue, as you said. I was referring to only your comment about the bible resulting from scientific ignorance. You are now referring to the entire thread. That is understandable. No problem. No more he said/she said.
I changed the subject in my answer immediately above. I'll agree that I changed the subject, and wont say I was referring to someone else's post.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Megathread fatigue.***
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Mar 17, 2025, 5:28 PM
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Disorientation.***
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Mar 17, 2025, 11:13 PM
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Re: Hold on CU . . .
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Mar 17, 2025, 11:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Hold on CU . . . ] |
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And, to say my comment was that the Bible is the result of scientific ignorance is a massive oversimplification and misrepresentation of my belief. I certainly do not believe that people who believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God are ignorant in any way. Again, my parents and many other people I know and love believe(d) that, and they are far from ignorant. All I am saying is that the lack of scientific knowledge of people thousands of years ago undoubtedly played a role in what and how they thought about God, and therefore what they eventually wrote about him
People who thought the earth was flat and had no concept of solar systems and galaxies or germs and no idea what caused thunder and lightning, would naturally have very different ideas about what God was like compared to people today who know about things like blue tooth, space travel, the big bang and quantum physics.
One of my main points in all of this is that extremely intelligent, sincere people can read and study the Bible and come away with very different understandings.
I really don't want you to think that I think you or other Bible believing Christians are ignorant or stupid, because I don't think that at all, and I am truly sorry if it came across that way.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: Hold on CU . . .
Mar 19, 2025, 10:21 AM
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..."is the understandable product of people without scientific knowledge.l
Then dont say it. Then you wont have to say you didnt say it.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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You're right. Please allow me to clarify.
Mar 23, 2025, 7:14 PM
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If God filled the hearts and minds of those who wrote the Bible, and guided their hands so that the words were literally his, then it is what it is. But ...
To the extent man's own thoughts, feelings, knowledge and understanding of the world and the universe influenced what was written in the Bible, I'm confident their limitations in those areas played a role.
They were not dumb or stupid. They were simply limited, much more so than we are today. For the record, we are still limited.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 8:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: What does it matter? ] |
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Did Jesus love the Pharisees? He didn’t seem to care much about them except to tell them they were going to hell.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 15, 2025, 8:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: What does it matter? ] |
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I was rather shocked when I learned that Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah, and that the Old Testament was part of their Scripture. I always assumed that the religions were completely different from each other. I believe I started a thread asking if Muslims "believing in Jesus" albeit in a different way was good enough to get them to heaven.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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The Muslims do not believe Jesus is the Messiah
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Mar 16, 2025, 8:37 AM
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They believe He is a brother to Muhammad. They believe Muhammad was the last "son" to be on earth and share God's truth.
As I have shared before, I pointedly asked a Muslim why they believe that Muhammad brought such a different message from his Older brother, Jesus, and why they thought they would not be punished for disrespecting the "older" brother, Jesus, by changing that message. As the Older brother represents the will of the Father with more authority than the younger - in all of their culture.
The anger was real. But the question still stands.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: The Muslims do not believe Jesus is the Messiah
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Mar 16, 2025, 1:01 PM
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Correct me if I’m wrong but that’s exactly what Muslims accuse Paul and the other apostles of doing…changing Jesus’ message and taking away from the worship of the one true god.
And I mean you can make a strong argument that the New Testament does contradict the old.
Eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek comes to mind.
Or what about Jesus abolishing the sabbath? Why would god make that rule just to come down and break it?
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Re: The Muslims do not believe Jesus is the Messiah
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Mar 16, 2025, 3:15 PM
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Who came first. Jesus or Muhammad?
TOO MANY people wish to confuse the OT division that is clearly given. The OT laws govern THREE aspects of Jewish life: Governing the people as a whole, governing the Temple, and the Laws of morality.
An eye for an eye...you can make that a moral issue if one is acting in vengeance of another. It was given as a law for society and provide a form of justice where a wrong was perpetrated.
And, how did Jesus break the Law of the Sabbath, ACTUALLY?
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Love your neighbor is a good practice to follow.
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Mar 16, 2025, 8:47 AM
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... but how do you do that if you don't love God first?
Will one replace the atoning sacrifice of Jesus with, "Well, God, I loved my neighbor like I was supposed to."
God's measure for forgiveness of sin is not found in how much one loves their neighbor. It is, however, an expectation [lifestyle] of those who love God.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I agree. Love God AND love your neighbor. I bet BD agrees as well.***
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Mar 16, 2025, 5:28 PM
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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God either loves us or he doesn't. If he does, he may allow us to stumble
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Mar 16, 2025, 10:55 PM
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and suffer through our free will, as part of our journey as our soul evolves, but he would never allow us to suffer for eternity, especially as a form of punishment.
On the other hand, if he doesn't love us, what does it really matter? He can't be trusted for anything.
I think God does love us, and I think his love is unconditional and never-ending. I think we are here to learn and grow, to experience this version of reality and all it entails, but not to forget God's all-encompassing love, and to love him and others in the same way. We are to spread that same love in this world. I think that was Jesus's real message.
That's what I believe, and it makes more sense to me than what some other men have decided what I should believe.
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Clemson Icon [25922]
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Re: Love your neighbor is a good practice to follow.
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Mar 16, 2025, 9:54 PM
[ in reply to Love your neighbor is a good practice to follow. ] |
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Right. Moralism, which is dressed up behavior modification, does no good at all, does not even address the issue. We all know this intuitively. It is only when denying Jesus that we trot it out as valid.
Even secular art recognizes the futility of moralism. "With A Little Bit Of Luck", from My Fair Lady:
"The Lord above made man to help his neighbor
No matter where, on land, or sea, or foam
The Lord above made man to help his neighbor, but
With a little bit of luck
With a little bit of luck
When he comes around you won't be home."
The value and behavior episodically exist. But not the actual desire.
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Ring of Honor [23383]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 17, 2025, 4:45 PM
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What if Jesus was just a dude like anyone else? Love your neighbor.
What if the Bible is just bullshyatt and written by man? Love your neighbor.
What if there is no heaven? Love your neighbor.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 17, 2025, 7:45 PM
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I believe he was just a dude like everyone else.
He said don’t get angry and then he got mad at the Pharisees.
He drank alcohol.
But he clearly cared about people, especially the marginalized.
Fact is if Jesus walked in a church today he’d probably be asked to leave.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 24, 2025, 5:08 AM
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Roman 3:
"23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
John 3:
"3 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
"16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 10:
"7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
Christ left no wiggle room. It is what it is, take it or not, you can't rationalize salvation by works.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: What does it matter?
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Mar 24, 2025, 7:32 AM
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The problem is these passages don’t line up with what Jesus said in other parts of the gospels.
The sermon on mount for instance was not about what you believe, but what you do and how you treat others.
John’s gospel and Paul oddly ever mention it.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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It's almost as if different people with different understandings,
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Mar 24, 2025, 9:00 AM
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experiences, and opinions wrote different parts of the bible at different times.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: It's almost as if different people with different understandings,
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Mar 24, 2025, 12:43 PM
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Yes and when you really dig into it and read it for what it says, these different opinions and interpretations come to light. Most people don’t read it that way though. For example when a small group comes together like a Sunday school class they usually use some type of study material which takes a particular passage and fits it into their box of theology. It is not an open minded read it for what it says discussion.
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