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All-In [46825]
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PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 7:45 AM
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except for being openly atheist. Would you still vote for them?
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 8:01 AM
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Highly unlikely that an atheist would align with my beliefs. In fact near impossible.
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All-In [42196]
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Why not?
Dec 8, 2022, 8:38 AM
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If we're talking issues on economy and other major platform stuff like immigration, spending, defense, global trade, education, etc...
There are a lot of major issues that don't involve religion.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Why not?
Dec 8, 2022, 8:45 AM
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Different world views about why all those things matter. I know you don’t understand that or agree and that’s ok. He asked would I vote for an open atheist and the answer is no. I will say that a person has to about be an atheist to adopt the policies of the hard left.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: Why not?
Dec 8, 2022, 9:58 AM
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Different world views about why all those things matter.
What wouldn't I understand about that or agree with?
What if that atheist could make our economy boom and fix our problems?
Also, don't you think many past politicians have been dishonest about religion so y'all were voting for an atheist anyway? Sorry to make it about Trump, but he was very clearly not an actual Christian yet had the support of many in this thread.
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All-TigerNet [11961]
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I think there's a substantial difference
Dec 8, 2022, 10:04 AM
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between not being an 'actual Christian' and being an atheist.
An atheist affirmatively asserts there is no God.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: I think there's a substantial difference
Dec 8, 2022, 10:10 AM
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So if someone knows he's an atheist and pretends he's a Christian, that's a completely different scenario?
How about those who profess to be a Christian and spew nothing but hate, discrimination, bigotry, unkindness, intolerance, etc.?
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All-TigerNet [11961]
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I know it sounds crazy
Dec 8, 2022, 10:13 AM
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but there may be some in politics who tailor their message to their constituents while their beliefs track in another direction.
On your second point, I don't see anyone in politics being successful with that approach, except maybe Pelosi.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: I know it sounds crazy
Dec 8, 2022, 10:16 AM
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but there may be some in politics who tailor their message to their constituents while their beliefs track in another direction.
But you would agree there's no difference between the out-of-the-closet atheist politician and the one pretending to be a Christian, no? In fact, the latter may be worse.
On your second point, I don't see anyone in politics being successful with that approach, except maybe Pelosi.
I'm talking mainly people in general, but there plenty of politicians who have been successful with this format throughout our history.
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All-TigerNet [11961]
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Re: I know it sounds crazy
Dec 8, 2022, 10:23 AM
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but there may be some in politics who tailor their message to their constituents while their beliefs track in another direction.
But you would agree there's no difference between the out-of-the-closet atheist politician and the one pretending to be a Christian, no? In fact, the latter may be worse.
Worse for their soul, but probably better for their constituents, if they are not corrupt.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: I know it sounds crazy
Dec 8, 2022, 10:24 AM
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If they have to lie to the public about their faith to get elected, I'm pretty confident any other transgression comes easily to them.
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All-TigerNet [11961]
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Seems likely.
Dec 8, 2022, 10:26 AM
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But those are probably the kinds of choices we actually get these days.
Most pubs in office clearly don't really believe the agenda they sell their voters.
And the dems tailor their version of 'Christianity' to suit a leftist, cultural marxist angle.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: I think there's a substantial difference
Dec 8, 2022, 10:14 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think there's a substantial difference ] |
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Those who do those things are not true Christian’s and their fate is no different from the open atheist.
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All-In [46825]
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How can you say what a true christian is or isn't?***
Dec 8, 2022, 10:17 AM
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: How can you say what a true christian is or isn't?***
Dec 8, 2022, 10:26 AM
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I can’t because there’s no way for me to know what’s in a persons heart. But if you would like a sincere answer to your question read Mathew 7: 15-23. It will answer your question from the actual words of Christ.
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All-In [46825]
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So is Trump a true christian then?***
Dec 8, 2022, 10:30 AM
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: So is Trump a true christian then?***
Dec 8, 2022, 10:33 AM
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Tell you what. Read the scripture I gave you and let’s discuss. I’ll give you my sincere thoughts on that.
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All-In [46825]
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I've read that scripture many times. It's about knowing them
Dec 8, 2022, 10:37 AM
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by their fruit.
Unlike many Christians I have actually read the bible cover to cover multiple times (admittedly I did skip some of the begats in Numbers)
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: I've read that scripture many times. It's about knowing them
Dec 8, 2022, 10:40 AM
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That’s great. Then you are free to answer the question about Trump or anyone else. However, be careful and read the first 5 verses of that chapters before doing so. That’s why I try to hold back on saying who is or is not a Christian. There’s plenty of planks in my own eye that I need to get rid of first.
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All-In [46825]
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So yourself and Trump are just flawed christians
Dec 8, 2022, 10:43 AM
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But everybody else is definitively a christian or not a christian
Got it.
Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: So other than yourself and Trump you can
Dec 8, 2022, 10:44 AM
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I can tell?? Did I say that? Don’t think I said that.
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All-In [46825]
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You said they are not true christians
Dec 8, 2022, 10:45 AM
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implying you can tell who is and isn't.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: You said they are not true christians
Dec 8, 2022, 10:49 AM
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I think what I said by encouraging you to read Mathew 7 is that Christ tells us what a true Christian is and he can of course tell. I can go by the blue print Christ gives us by since I can not truly see into a man’s heart I can’t make a definitive judgement. I think I also said I have to be careful making such a judgement as outlined in the first 5 verses of Mathew 7.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: You said they are not true christians
Dec 8, 2022, 11:05 AM
[ in reply to You said they are not true christians ] |
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FB Coach , I just read everything I posted. I clearly said I personally can’t make that call. Not sure what you misunderstood but I’ll be glad to clear it up if you’re interested. If not it’s all good too.
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All-Conference [436]
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All-Conference [436]
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All-Conference [436]
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Re: I think there's a substantial difference
Dec 8, 2022, 7:32 PM
[ in reply to I think there's a substantial difference ] |
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I'm assuming someone will beat me to this, but your statement is inaccurate and exhibits how easily misinformation (on this topic, specifically) can be perpetuated. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods due to lack of evidence - few Atheists are making the claim that there is no god. Big difference between the two. Evidence vs. lack of - same as being innocent vs. being found not guilty - the latter is due to lack of evidence. Thanks
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Orange Blooded [2021]
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All-In [46825]
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Re: Why not?
Dec 8, 2022, 10:37 AM
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All-In [42196]
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Re: Why not?
Dec 8, 2022, 10:40 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why not? ] |
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Please. Trump has been quoted in the past as calling Christians "fools" and "schmucks," he never actually attended church services in office, and he lied about still attending his childhood church. The man was an atheist to the core. His own admitted beliefs do not align with Christianity, particularly his self-proclaimed affinity for revenge.
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All-In [27149]
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NJDEV is a blasphemer, and will face some tough questions
Dec 8, 2022, 3:05 PM
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when he expires.
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All-In [27149]
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Trump stated he does not believe in confession/repentance.
Dec 8, 2022, 3:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why not? ] |
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What type of Christianity do you practice where that gets him into Heaven?
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110%er [7208]
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All-In [27149]
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CU Guru [1315]
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Re: I'm a Christian, and my views are decidedly libertarian.***
Dec 8, 2022, 7:06 PM
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Whoah! That doesn't explain your bizarre posts and concentration on misinformation.
I could help you, gratis. I'm such a giving person, esp. to confused people that stutter.
FJB
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All-In [27149]
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Re: I'm a Christian, and my views are decidedly libertarian.***
Dec 8, 2022, 9:17 PM
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All-Conference [436]
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Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 7:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs ] |
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The default position is a-theism. Without the indoctrination of various religions, humans are born atheists (you, me, all). So, if government is belief-dependent, then it is inherently biased and guided by something/beliefs that are not in the interest of all. In my opinion, "all" is the operative. Again - my opinion, not a directive, law or expectation.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 9:50 PM
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Humans are born having not yet experienced God but I don’t think anyone can say humans are born atheists. The Bible indicates we are absolutely not born atheists. Of course I do realize the Bible carries no validity to an atheist which would only polarize any discussion on the subject.
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All-Conference [436]
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Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 9, 2022, 9:06 AM
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Always an interesting topic (for me, anyway). I see this similarly to all humans being born A-racists, A-fill in the blank <-- kind of "TBD", if you will. Infants/toddlers are raised and influenced by their parents, geography, etc. and there is an age of reason window when they begin thinking for themselves. How much of this is based on teachings versus critical thinking? Varies for all of us. So, all the atheist label is calling out is the lack of theism. Lack of belief as there has been no sufficient evidence OR cultural influence to begin the process of joining the tribe, etc. Thanks
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All-TigerNet [13146]
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I'd vote for Satan if they would stop ruining the economy
Dec 8, 2022, 8:03 AM
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under the guise of "saving the planet". I guess Satan is less atheist than an actual atheist, though.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: I'd vote for Satan if they would stop ruining the economy
Dec 8, 2022, 8:06 AM
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Lol. That sir , is very true.
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All-TigerNet [11961]
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 8:12 AM
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Of course. I do not care about their religious beliefs, only their policies.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 8:15 AM
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They would never admit they didn't believe in God or organized religion. The will fake it like Trump did.
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All-In [26968]
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I had to think about it a bit, but probably not.
Dec 8, 2022, 8:19 AM
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(First, it's rather far-fetched that someone who aligns with me on everything else would be openly atheist, but I will go with the hypothetical)
I think the main thing is "openly". If I don't know their spiritual condition/beliefs, which I really don't for any candidate, then that's one thing. But if they are talking about being atheist openly, then I think that's a bridge too far for a negative influence on the nation.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: I had to think about it a bit, but probably not.
Dec 8, 2022, 8:38 AM
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But if they are talking about being atheist openly, then I think that's a bridge too far for a negative influence on the nation.
How so?
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All-In [26968]
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Because leaders being atheist and promoting it as a positive
Dec 8, 2022, 8:47 AM
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Can and will influence others toward atheism. That is a negative thing, because atheism is wrong and harmful to people.
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All-In [46825]
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How?***
Dec 8, 2022, 8:49 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Because people who are atheists
Dec 8, 2022, 8:50 AM
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By definition go to hell when they die, which is the worst thing that can happen to a person.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Maybe they get to hang out with dogs down there
Dec 8, 2022, 9:34 AM
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Since dogs don't go to Heaven, right?
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Maybe they get to hang out with dogs down there
Dec 8, 2022, 9:54 AM
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My dog is going to heaven.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Prod has stated differently***
Dec 8, 2022, 2:06 PM
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All-In [42196]
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You know, we can easily flip this around
Dec 8, 2022, 10:08 AM
[ in reply to Because people who are atheists ] |
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And say Christianity has a historical record of being harmful and wrong to be people by forcing beliefs and even punishing--sometimes by death--those who didn't conform.
Now, is that a fair statement to make to you? No, it's not. And that's just as unfair as your statement.
This is your belief. It might be right, but you don't know it as fact, and it's wrong to state it as fact to those who don't share your beliefs.
I don't want to listen to any garbage that a 10-year-old kid who lived with kindness and love but never believed and met an untimely death is now burning in hell. And if that IS what happened, then #### any system that allows that to happen.
Sorry, Prod, you're a great poster and a great man, but if we want to talk odds that YOU and YOUR group of followers got it 100 percent right on religion...
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All-TigerNet [11961]
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And there's the rub.
Dec 8, 2022, 10:16 AM
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The tendency to set ourselves up in judgment of God.
I've done it.
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All-In [26968]
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When I post, I post what I believe to be correct.
Dec 8, 2022, 12:14 PM
[ in reply to You know, we can easily flip this around ] |
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I don't feel the need to put a qualifier of "I believe that" in front of every post so it's "presented as a fact". By default, when I post something, it is what I believe to be true. This is what we all do, on every subject.
You asked a direct question, I directly answered it honestly, and I stand by my response. If you don't want to "listen to that", then you shouldn't have asked the question.
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All-In [26968]
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I apologize, you didn't ask the question.
Dec 8, 2022, 12:14 PM
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I was answering a question FBCoach asked.
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All-In [42196]
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Well, then
Dec 8, 2022, 12:29 PM
[ in reply to When I post, I post what I believe to be correct. ] |
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If we're just stating things are definitive facts that condemn children to hell if they don't subscribe to one's beliefs, I'll drop my own.
Atheists don't go to hell because it's a make-believe place. Like Santa's workshop in the North Pole.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Because people who are atheists
Dec 8, 2022, 3:02 PM
[ in reply to Because people who are atheists ] |
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As someone who is openly Atheist, I find your comments about Atheism pretty ignorant. I'm not calling you ignorant! You just seem uninformed and desire an enforcement of your belief system upon me, without any knowledge of my own.
I hardly know where to start, but, for one, I'm not sweating going to Hell. When I die, I'll be planted in the ground and the proverbial worms will eat me. That is your personal definition. That doesn't make it so, no matter how strongly you believe it is so. That is simply part of your faith, not an established fact.
Religious affiliation hasn't a wit to do with ones morality or capacity to lead or create good policy. You surely don't need me to point out the hypocrites who flaunt their religion in order to get votes but show no interest in adhering to the teachings. Politicians who stick migrants on airplanes to other states are surely not loving others as they love themselves. Much less loving all, as Jesus taught.
I mean, a lot of Evangelicals seem to want the USA to be a "Christian Nation" the way Iran is a "Muslim Nation." The USA has (with obvious and unfortunate exceptions) embraced diversity of religion, thought, race, etc. Religious nations fundamentally do not.
A wiser person than me once said that the the difference between the Atheist and the religious adherent is that, of the 1,000 gods that men have created over the history of human kind, the religious adherent has dismissed 999 of them as false. The Atheist has dismissed 1,000.
I'm curious as to whether your personal religious belief allows you to vote for others of different faiths or whether your ire is strictly for those who choose to not have a deity?
For full disclosure, I was raised by a church-going family and even attended a church school, before starting public school in third grade. I had absolutely no bad experiences in church. But as I aged and learned and studied in school, I came to a very early (probably middle school years) realization that (in simple terms) I just didn't buy into the god concept. The earth is millions of years old. Fossils show where we came from. Evolution explains a lot, too.
I certainly also have specific criticism of faiths - namely the Christian faith in which I was raised. My ire is pointed there not to single it out, but because that is my area of familiarity and I live in a country where Christians are certainly the dominant cultural force, but that is not good enough for a lot of them in what I hope is a pluralistic society.
David Hume popularized Epicurus's "the problem of evil."
P1. If an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god exists, then evil does not.
P2. There is evil in the world.
C1. Therefore, an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god does not exist.
I also find the phenomenon of Evangelicals constantly trying to show "proof" of an existence of god to be troubling. I was raised to believe in the importance of "faith and faith alone." (I'll set aside the implication of that in humanistic terms. I mean, "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved" suggests that you can do a lot of bad things as long as you believe and are baptized.) Anyhoo...
Those who try to show proof of god are trying to make god measurable, therefore not infinite. They diminish god. They remove "faith" and replace it with "rote." With proof and without faith, god is suddenly like that powerful character on Star Trek Next Gen.
As to public policy, up until forty or so years ago, the separation of church and state meant a very great thing. It meant that no matter what our personal religious beliefs, we all live under the same law of the land. What a wonderful concept! But in recent decades that has been perverted by religious folks to mean "we have laws, but if you claim they violate your religious belief you can simply exempt yourself from the law." I find that deeply troubling. I find the "sincerely held religious beliefs" argument to be completely bogus.
I've gone on enough.
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All-In [26968]
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I will try to answer your concerns
Dec 8, 2022, 3:39 PM
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I don't know what you mean about "ignorant". What don't you think I know about atheism. It is the belief that there is no god, correct?
Most of them are not applicable to me, and may be due to misreading, or a lack of reading, of my posts.
I did not hint at enforcing any belief on anyone. I don't know what you are reading where you got that.
I didn't say anything about atheism affecting anyone's morality or ability to create good policy. If you read my posts, you'll see my stated reason for not voting for an open atheist doesn't have anything to do with morality or policy.
I care nothing about America being a so-called "Christian nation", and never said anything to that effect. "Christian nation" is a dumb meaningless phrase, to me.
I have absolutely no "ire" on this subject or towards anyone, and my posts do not indicate such.
My personal religious beliefs do allow me to vote for people of different faiths, including atheists. However, when the question said "open atheist," that presented a different problem, for the reasons I already stated.
I do not believe in trying to "prove" God's existence, or anything else in the Bible. I agree that a belief based on proof is not faith at all, and I don't pursue any such type of belief.
I believe in and agree with the separation of church and state, as delineated in the Constitution, where it says that the government shall not establish a religion, or prohibit the free exercise of religion.
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All-In [26968]
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I apologize for a poor copy/paste job I did on one line:
Dec 8, 2022, 3:40 PM
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This should be the first sentence of my post:
"Most of them are not applicable to me, and may be due to misreading, or a lack of reading, of my posts.", where "them" refers to the "concerns" as stated in my subject line.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: I apologize for a poor copy/paste job I did on one line:
Dec 8, 2022, 6:43 PM
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I think that not being able to vote for someone who is openly atheist is troubling.
I've voted for plenty of Christians and Jews and am not troubled one bit that they will influence children, even though they don't share my view there.
Do you think we're trying to "groom" a nation of Athiests? Or are you afraid of the example of a caring, successful person showing that religion doesn't necessarily make someone a better human being? What is your concern?
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All-In [26968]
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I already said the concern above.
Dec 9, 2022, 8:47 AM
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I don't know how to say it any differently or more simply. I will say it again, so you don't have to re-read my posts.
I believe having a leader who is atheist will influence people who like him/her toward atheism. (I make no claim about the leader intentionally grooming/recruiting/evangelizing.) I believe that is very bad for a person because an atheistic belief will cause a soul to go to hell after death.
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All-In [26968]
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Addendum, to connect the last line of logic
Dec 9, 2022, 8:49 AM
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Therefore, the reason I wouldn't want to vote for an open atheist is because I do not want more people to go to hell. I want fewer people to go to hell.
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All-Conference [436]
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Re: I will try to answer your concerns
Dec 8, 2022, 7:56 PM
[ in reply to I will try to answer your concerns ] |
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"It is the belief that there is no god, correct?"
No, this is not correct.
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All-Conference [436]
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Re: I will try to answer your concerns
Dec 8, 2022, 7:59 PM
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Perhaps this helps:
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/ What is Atheism? Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods. It is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about a person.
Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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All-In [26968]
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OK...seems like semantics to me.
Dec 9, 2022, 8:45 AM
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To me, if you don't believe there are gods, then you believe there are no gods. But I submit to the consensus technical definition.
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All-Conference [436]
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Re: OK...seems like semantics to me.
Dec 9, 2022, 9:13 AM
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No, that is not the case. You can call it semantics, but that doesn't make it so. Personally, I have not seen/experienced evidence that has convinced me that gods exist - that is all. So, until I do (or continue not to), then I am not a believer. However, I remain open to the evidence (not anecdotal evidence). In short, I do not claim there are no gods <--- not semantics. That would be a positive claim that would require evidence. You claim there is a god <--- that is a positive claim that requires evidence, demonstrable/repeatable or something similar. I'm not able to choose belief anymore than anyone else. We all believe things based on (that word again), evidence and this results in confidence in a claim. Gravity, germ theory, etc., etc. We don't choose to believe in these - the evidence is there. Thanks!
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All-In [42196]
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Why do you think a president would influence others to it?
Dec 8, 2022, 10:04 AM
[ in reply to Because leaders being atheist and promoting it as a positive ] |
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Moreso, do you really think current Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. would be easily swayed to adopt atheism?
Who would they be influencing? I can't recall any of our past presidents influencing people into Christianity.
And then finally, why is it wrong and harmful? I know many happy and healthy atheists who have loving families.
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All-In [26968]
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All leaders influence their followers to some extent
Dec 8, 2022, 12:17 PM
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It's why it's so important to have people with high character in leadership. It's natural that the person we see in a position of authority is someone we model behavior after.
Trivial example, but a lot of people I know call Senator Warren "Pocahontas". They do that exclusively because President Trump did it. They are copying him.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: All leaders influence their followers to some extent
Dec 8, 2022, 12:26 PM
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Yeah it’s not mature to do the name calling but Warren did lie for many years about her race and used it to her advantage. So, the name calling may not be good but holding her accountable for lies is reasonable.
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All-In [26968]
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I agree on holding people accountable...
Dec 8, 2022, 12:37 PM
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But we should always speak about people with respect, especially our leaders. I try to always put the titles in, and I never use any nicknames or epithets. I say "President Trump", "Speaker Pelosi," "Governor McMaster," etc.
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All-In [42196]
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There's a difference between acting like...
Dec 8, 2022, 12:31 PM
[ in reply to All leaders influence their followers to some extent ] |
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A hateful idiot because the president is a hateful idiot. Those people were already hateful idiots and the president just made them think it was okay to act that way as well.
I don't see an adult abandoning Christianity because of an atheist president any more than an atheist is going to come to Jesus because the president is a Christian.
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All-In [26968]
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That's a strawman.
Dec 8, 2022, 12:39 PM
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I didn't say anything about anyone "abandoning Christianity". What about a person who's not quite sure what he or she believes, but they have a President that they really like and agree with about everything else...you don't see a possibility that would influence a person toward their religion? I'm not talking about direct conversions...I'm talking about influence.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: That's a strawman.
Dec 8, 2022, 1:01 PM
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Perhaps you're right, but I would posit that the person you're describing who could be so easily swayed to atheism by a politician didn't have much going for him or her with critical thought or conviction to begin with.
Given that, it's doubtful an atheist president could sway many people like that to his or her views, and thus it wouldn't have any real impact on the leadership of our nation.
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Oculus Spirit [97734]
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There is no candidate aligned to my beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 8:22 AM
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Hasn't really been one for decades now. My beliefs are simple. I would never support a candidate who tells me only what I'd like to hear. I'd never hire someone who will only tell me what I'd like to hear. I'd never parent my children telling them only what they want to hear. I am just as turned off by people who tell me only what I want to hear, as much as I am people who only tell me things I don't want to hear.
Nope, my ideal candidate would tick off both republicans and democrats, and would not tell people what they want to hear, and they would summarily lose. And they do. Heck they never make a general election.
Had a lawyer the other day who said I should get into politics. I said no way. I'd tick off everyone and would never win.
I will say one thing. This country WILL NOT survive, if only democrats OR republicans ran it, in their present iteration anyway.
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All-Conference [436]
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Re: There is no candidate aligned to my beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 8:28 PM
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1000 thumbs-up to THIS comment.
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All-TigerNet [10899]
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No
Dec 8, 2022, 8:41 AM
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voting is a sham.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Srsly..why do you stay here?
Dec 8, 2022, 9:38 AM
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America sucks for you.
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All-TigerNet [10899]
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There's a difference between America and the government
Dec 8, 2022, 9:54 AM
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I was born here, I interact with a lot of people here happily and voluntarily (and successfully), and I'm not the one who sucks in this equation, so I'm not going anywhere. The government is nothing but a parasite that does nothing but reduce the quality of life here.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Do you think that is gong to change anytime soon?
Dec 8, 2022, 2:07 PM
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Its hard to separate the country from the government. I'm sure that parts of Russia and China that are awesome places with good people, too.
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All-TigerNet [10899]
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What's right and wrong doesn't depend on when things change.
Dec 8, 2022, 3:24 PM
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So I don't really care. I know what's right and just because many people are dumb or asleep doesn't matter to me.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 8, 2022, 9:06 AM
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God does not believe in atheists.
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All-TigerNet [11961]
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Unlikely he'd be pro life
Dec 8, 2022, 9:09 AM
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since whatever demons are steering him would likely frown on that ####.
Maybe an agnostic, tho.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: PR Poll: Let's say the candidate is aligned to your beliefs
Dec 13, 2024, 4:26 PM
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Yes. I am hiring them for a job. I would prefer a truly committed Christian all things being equal, but if their political views were more aligned with mine than a non Atheist, I would vote for them.
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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Depends on the kind of atheist...
Dec 8, 2022, 9:42 AM
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There are generally two kinds of atheists:
Type 1. The kind who malign, criticize, and have a seething hatred for those who do believe in a higher power (i.e. God). These kinds of atheists have superiority complexes who categorize people of faith as stupid, simple minded idiots that are intellectually inferior because they dare to believe in God. These atheists actively fight against the practice of religious beliefs (especially public) and attempt to rid the world of religion through public ridicule, cancel culture, legal action and even legislation.
Type 2. The second kind of atheist is "live and let live" and harbors no ill will towards the practice or public expression of faith by those who believe in a higher power. They don't consider people of faith to have any less intelligence than anyone else - they just differ on the existence of a supreme being and are equally supportive of believers or non-believers alike.
Unfortunately, the majority of atheists I have run across are type 1 above. I would never, ever vote for a type 1 atheist regardless of their other political beliefs. I do know a couple of type 2 atheists and would consider voting for them should they prove they support freedom OF religion and not freedom FROM religion.
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All-In [46825]
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The majority of Christians I come across are type 1***
Dec 8, 2022, 9:55 AM
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: The majority of Christians I come across are type 1***
Dec 8, 2022, 9:58 AM
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Then you are not coming across Christians.
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All-Conference [436]
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All-In [42196]
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For your Type 1
Dec 8, 2022, 10:11 AM
[ in reply to Depends on the kind of atheist... ] |
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And while I don't disagree they exist, can you not argue there are people (and politicians) who are Christian who exhibit similar behavior to that Type 1?
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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The original question was about atheists so I stuck to my
Dec 8, 2022, 11:01 AM
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personal observations and experiences since the question was of a personal nature: "Would I vote for an open atheist?"
Are there professed Christians out in the world who malign, criticize, and have a seething hatred for unbelievers based solely on their denial of God? I'm quite sure there are but I don't personally know anyone like that. I would also say that Christians who fall into that category are violating our faith as God demands that Christians love even our tormentors and enemies - which is admittedly difficult to do at all times.
I do believe that many, either from confusion or intentional juxtaposition, define a Christian's disdain and hate of sin as being hatred for a person or class of people. The Christian principle of "hate the sin but love the sinner" is very often twisted by many who disagree with Christian defined sins as "hate the sinner" which is not the case.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: The original question was about atheists so I stuck to my
Dec 8, 2022, 3:22 PM
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I do believe that many, either from confusion or intentional juxtaposition, define a Christian's disdain and hate of sin as being hatred for a person or class of people. The Christian principle of "hate the sin but love the sinner" is very often twisted by many who disagree with Christian defined sins as "hate the sinner" which is not the case.
But many people like myself see that as a disingenuous concept, given the vile rhetoric that comes from many on the religious right.
I mean, look at the o/p. There seems to be a presumption that an Atheist is unqualified to serve. That would be (in your words) "hating the sinner" no?
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Depends on the kind of atheist...
Dec 8, 2022, 3:11 PM
[ in reply to Depends on the kind of atheist... ] |
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There are generally two kinds of atheists:
Type 1. The kind who malign, criticize, and have a seething hatred for those who do believe in a higher power (i.e. God). These kinds of atheists have superiority complexes who categorize people of faith as stupid, simple minded idiots that are intellectually inferior because they dare to believe in God. These atheists actively fight against the practice of religious beliefs (especially public) and attempt to rid the world of religion through public ridicule, cancel culture, legal action and even legislation.
Type 2. The second kind of atheist is "live and let live" and harbors no ill will towards the practice or public expression of faith by those who believe in a higher power. They don't consider people of faith to have any less intelligence than anyone else - they just differ on the existence of a supreme being and are equally supportive of believers or non-believers alike.
Unfortunately, the majority of atheists I have run across are type 1 above. I would never, ever vote for a type 1 atheist regardless of their other political beliefs. I do know a couple of type 2 atheists and would consider voting for them should they prove they support freedom OF religion and not freedom FROM religion.
One could say that there are two types of Christians, who do the same thing. Those who are Live and Let Live Christians. And those who proselytize and want the nation run under the rules of their faith. So I think your statement is hardly exclusive to Atheists.
As an Atheist who you would probably categorize in group 1, I would say that I was in group 2 until Christians kept trying to shove religion down my throat via public policy.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Depends on the kind of atheist...
Dec 8, 2022, 3:27 PM
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What public policies are Christian’s shoving down your throat? Not looking for a fight , just asking.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Depends on the kind of atheist...
Dec 8, 2022, 4:08 PM
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Prayer in schools is top of the list. These cases (like the football coach) boggle my mind.
Reproductive rights issues are largely driven by matters of faith, not science (and certainly there is an aspect of the subservience of women there).
The Hobby Lobby decision, creating a precedent of exempting Christians from the law of the land.
Attacks on the LGBTQ community come out of religious communities - and nonsensical claims of "grooming" in schools that have been the recent cause celebre.
There has also been a big increase in attempts to get books out of school library if they deal with issues of sexuality or race. These attempts come from the same people.
That that happens when I see a lot of hypocrisy in how we deal with the poor, migrants, health care, basic nutrition. There are a lot of conservative policies that are non-Christian, even though conservatives tend to wear their Christianity on their sleeves.
I'm starting to digress, but I think you get where I'm coming from.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Depends on the kind of atheist...
Dec 8, 2022, 4:27 PM
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Thanks for answering.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: Depends on the kind of atheist...
Dec 8, 2022, 9:53 PM
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I was happy to - and took it as a completely honest and respectful question.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Depends on the kind of atheist...
Dec 8, 2022, 9:57 PM
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Yes sir, I meant it with respect. We would disagree on the subject but I sincerely wanted to hear your take on it.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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Of course. I prefer candidates of faith in science and fact
Dec 8, 2022, 10:04 AM
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I don't care if they are agnostic, atheist or religious.
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