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Orange Immortal [63287]
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Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
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Feb 19, 2025, 8:44 AM
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In principle, how are we as Americans, not only okay with, but supportive of one country invading another sovereign nation, strictly for the benefit of the invader, with tens of thousands of lives lost along the way?
Is it really a simple cost/benefit situation, where principles like right/wrong and respect for sovereignty take a back seat to practicality? What am I missing?
Thanks in advance.
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
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Feb 19, 2025, 8:47 AM
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Were you OK with US attacking Cuba when Russia was parking missiles on our doorstep?
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Orange Immortal [63287]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
Feb 19, 2025, 9:03 AM
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Is Putin simply Russia's JFK in this situation, a legitimate leader who is simply doing what he must do in order to protect his country?
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Orange Elite [5223]
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Precisely where this analogy fails***
Feb 19, 2025, 9:11 AM
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Re: Precisely where this analogy fails***
Feb 19, 2025, 9:20 AM
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The "Russia" y'all hate is long gone. They have kicked out the Communists(Kazarian Mafia) and their Central bank. That is why they are enemy #1 of the Globalists - They can no longer be controlled by the Rothchilds banking system like ALL the other countries of the World. That is why Trump is removing the Federal Reserve (private bank) and freeing us from debt slavery. We are going back to a Gold back currency issued by THE US TREASURY
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Re: Precisely where this analogy fails***
Feb 19, 2025, 9:32 AM
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The Bolsheviks WERE NOT RUSSIANS - They were jews (Khazarian jews)
The Khazarian jews are always behind communism.
Historically speaking, Russian is one of the most Christian countries in the world. Much like the US
There are many things you were never taught about Pre Bolshevik revolution Russia. They don't want you to know
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Ultimate Tiger [37261]
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Re: Precisely where this analogy fails***
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Feb 19, 2025, 10:16 AM
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NCTIgerFan23 here’s some real life antisemitism, and I regret to inform you that ^^^ this dude isn’t leftist scum
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Ultimate Tiger [37261]
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Youre not helping yourself here***
Feb 19, 2025, 3:00 PM
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TigerNet Icon [149060]
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Putin is an absolute authoritarian who has his political enemies killed.
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: Precisely where this analogy fails*** ] |
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This is not an exaggeration, he's done it the entire time he's been in power. He presides over an oligarchy of his own construction. There's a reason many people believe Putin is actually the richest man in the world, and not Musk--because he essentially owns all of Russia's wealth.
That's who your white hat hero is, and you're cheering on the US being led down the same path. The only logical explanation is that this is what you actually WANT.
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Re: Putin is an absolute authoritarian who has his political enemies killed.
Feb 19, 2025, 9:49 AM
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World peace - yes (Trump also wants a military reduction treaty with Russia and China)
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Orange Elite [5223]
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It's honestly impressive how well the Russian propaganda has worked on you
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: Precisely where this analogy fails*** ] |
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What a sad state of affairs of the American education system though.
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Ultimate Tiger [37261]
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Re: Precisely where this analogy fails***
Feb 19, 2025, 9:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: Precisely where this analogy fails*** ] |
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Yikes dude. You are deep, deep, deep down the rabbit hole. I would challenge you to provide any sort of supporting evidence for your claims, but we tried that yesterday and your response was to “follow the money” and you disappeared when I gave you actual high level research from Nature and the Lancet.
I’d bet you $1000 that Trump will never “end the fed,” but you would just show me a rumble video of some lunatic and claim it actually really happened.
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All-Time Great [89015]
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I'm not sure how you take this guy srsly.
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Feb 19, 2025, 12:46 PM
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He has stated that Biden is a body double, Trump is on his third term (because he was still in charge of the military when Biden was in office) and Hilary Clinton was hung at Gitmo. Somehow Tom Hanks got involved and he's a body double too, because, well, he was Hung at Gitmo too. And thene there is the whole "white hat" thing where he says some of the worlds biggest civil rights abusers are ion some big big club that's working to stop child sexual abuse.
It's all based on the antisemitic tropes that go back as far as the blood libel, and this dude laps it up with a spoon.
And that's some of the more sane stuff he has stated. Anytime you ask him some really difficult question that obviously conflicts with whatever Q based world view he has...he just slinks off, never answers, and shows up later with some more nonsense. It's always "one day you'll see" and "great awakening" kind of stuff.
I'm still not sure it's all not just the long-con in some weird attempt at making those he converses with look stupid for actually believing that he could possibly believe the craziness he posts.
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Head Coach [927]
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Re: I'm not sure how you take this guy srsly.
Feb 20, 2025, 3:03 AM
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People like him are real. It’s sad but true.
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Heisman Winner [87238]
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
Feb 19, 2025, 9:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . . ] |
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1) 100% - There are over 30 bioweapon labs that were put in Ukraine with some that have ethnic Russian viruses.
2) NATO (which wants a war) is trying its best to add Ukraine, which would also put NATO troops, missiles, and equipment on their border.
3) Zelensky is a Globalist puppet who was installed. That is why part of the negotiations includes a new election.
Ukraine is nothing more than a CIA/Mossad money laundering, child trafficking operation
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Orange Elite [5223]
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NATO wants war?
Feb 19, 2025, 9:18 AM
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Based on what?
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Re: NATO wants war?
Feb 19, 2025, 9:23 AM
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The Department of Defense confirmed earlier this month that the U.S. has invested $200 million in Ukraine since 2005 to support 46 Ukrainian laboratories and their research into disease threats as part of the Biological Threat Reduction Program, which involves former Soviet Union countries.
We do this because they are illegal for us on our soil
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Orange Elite [5223]
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You're accusing a "biological threat REDUCTION program"
Feb 19, 2025, 9:27 AM
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as being an offensive campaign to invoke war?
It's wild how conspiracy theories work.
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Re: You're accusing a "biological threat REDUCTION program"
Feb 19, 2025, 9:37 AM
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Well then there are a ton of idiots out there because the people that are now back in power don't consider these conspiracies. Not only that, they will show you the truth behind JFK assassination, 9/11....
Buckle up
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Orange Blooded [2329]
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Paw Master [17752]
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Paw Master [16777]
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Could you clarify which "invader" we are supporting?***
Feb 19, 2025, 8:48 AM
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Paw Master [17752]
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Re: Could you clarify which "invader" we are supporting?***
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:39 AM
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No prob. Putin. There you go.
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
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Feb 19, 2025, 8:52 AM
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We aren't ok with it nor have we been ok with it but the reality is that unless we are really going to hit Russia ourselves, and risk WW3, Ukraine lacks the resources and manpower to continue being slaughtered indefinitely. They've already lost nearly half their fighting age male population. I realize some in the US don't really care if every Ukranian is wiped off the face of the planet but that's where this will ultimately end up, years down the road, based on the status quo of the last few years since Russia has several multiples of manpower and will use them. So our options are to either escalate and send our troops over there or try to end things with as good of a deal as possible. I know which one most people in the US would prefer.
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Paw Warrior [5089]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
Feb 19, 2025, 9:07 AM
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What happened when Russia tried to invade Afghanistan?
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Top TigerNet [29660]
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Birm says Afghan soldiers > Ukraine soldiers.***
Feb 19, 2025, 9:22 AM
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Orange Immortal [63287]
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Orange Elite [5223]
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Why are you so certain that Russia will clearly win?
Feb 19, 2025, 9:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . . ] |
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It's been three years and they show no signs of winning.
Russia is the ones asking for peace because they can't sustain this long-term.
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: Why are you so certain that Russia will clearly win?
Feb 19, 2025, 9:23 AM
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I'm not sure Russia would "win" as much as they'd eventually be the only side able to field a military. If one side has ten times the troops of the other side which side will eventually prevail? Of course we can start unleashing the full might of our military on Russia in order to turn the tide but that going to eventually involve a lot of dead Americans, and be exponentially more expensive than what we've spent thus far. We've had a pretty good deal to this point getting Ukrainians to die for us while we bleed down some of the Russian military but that is only an option as long as Ukraine can field an actual army and it isn't too far down the road before that won't be an option and then what? Do we let Russia waltz in and take over the entire country because there's nobody left at all? Its a complicated question for sure but unless we want to get ourselves involved, Vietnam style, we need to find another solution.
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Orange Elite [5223]
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It's wild you make a Vietnam reference
Feb 19, 2025, 9:26 AM
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when that's exactly why just because you're a larger nation it doesn't mean you're going to successfully invade a smaller nation and win.
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: It's wild you make a Vietnam reference
Feb 19, 2025, 9:38 AM
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Of course it doesn't. However Vietnam and Afghanistan (for example) weren't traditional WW2 type meat grinder military engagements, which the current Ukraine war definitely is. There are nearly two million dead over the last few years which are numbers we never saw in either of those campaigns, so it's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. My Vietnam comment was meant more as an example of the kind of troops on the ground, in the air and on the seas kind of engagement we, as a nation, would need to decide was worth our lives and gold to make happen and even then it would definitely not guarantee us victory.
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Orange Immortal [63287]
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I'm all for minimizing our involvement as much as possible.
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:38 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why are you so certain that Russia will clearly win? ] |
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I grew up during Vietnam and understand the lesson there. I still think we could say "Putin and Russia are in the wrong, and we will never support their invasion of a sovereign nation".
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National Champion [7136]
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Re: I'm all for minimizing our involvement as much as possible.
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:47 AM
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Totally agree and just because we may have to reach a less than ideal agreement here doesn't mean we can't keep trying to hit them hard economically, but it will take the EU and others to do so as well or it won't have the desired impact.
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TigerNet Icon [149060]
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We spent a TRILLION dollars over 20 years in Afghanistan,
Feb 19, 2025, 9:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why are you so certain that Russia will clearly win? ] |
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and walked away with no benefit whatsoever. We've spent less than 1/5 of that over 3 years in Ukraine with no American boots on the ground, and our reward is an absolutely decimated military of one of our two chief superpower rivals on the planet.
It's OK for you to admit that the money going to Ukraine isn't your real issue in all of this.
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Paw Warrior [5089]
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Re: Why are you so certain that Russia will clearly win?
Feb 19, 2025, 10:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why are you so certain that Russia will clearly win? ] |
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What happened when Russia tried to invade Afghanistan? Were the Russians able to wear down and outlast the US supported Afghans? 🤔
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Paw Master [16250]
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This is not a video game. You can't just throw all the soldiers you created
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Feb 19, 2025, 11:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why are you so certain that Russia will clearly win? ] |
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into the war and watch their power meters go down one for one. There is a mountain of nuance to this battle. Russia is predominantly pushing, which requires more soldiers. Their tactics lead to higher casualties. They have a MASSIVE country to guard and foreign interests around the world to support. Their population was already in significant decline and they lost about another million when the war erupted. Another hundreds of thousands in the war itself. Their oil infrastructure is attacked almost nightly. Inflation is out of control. Spending is out of control. Europe, once a significant trading partner, has significantly reduced imports from Russia in nearly everything but natural gas. Their stockpile of weapons is significantly depleted.
Ukraine has modernized and adapted faster than Russia. Their use of drones is significantly more effective than Russia's. Can they win? I dunno. But it's silly to say they can't just by looking at population size.
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Paw Master [17752]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:38 AM
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It's better for Trump's personal business to be on the good side of the Russians.
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Orange Immortal [63287]
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I'm no Trumper, but I don't believe that is a factor at all.***
Feb 19, 2025, 9:41 AM
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Paw Master [17752]
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Re: I'm no Trumper, but I don't believe that is a factor at all.***
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:56 AM
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I believe he sides with the Russians due to his friendships with Russians in his business endeavors throughout life. I believe it was that simple for him to take sides. That, and the fact that he gets his news from the same nutty places as people like NJDEV.
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Paw Warrior [5089]
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Paw Master [17752]
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Re: I'm no Trumper, but I don't believe that is a factor at all.***
Feb 19, 2025, 10:25 AM
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Exactly.
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All-In [11047]
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Who's supportive of it? But - yes - it is a simple cost/benefit situation where
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:50 AM
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the cost of protecting Ukraine is becoming too great. Not talking $$ here - but the cost of potentially causing a larger war.
Personally, I would keep funding Ukraine as long as they are willing to duke it out with the Russians.
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Campus Hero [13487]
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Your entire question is based on propaganda.***
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:56 AM
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Paw Master [17752]
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Re: Your entire question is based on propaganda.***
Feb 19, 2025, 9:57 AM
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That's all you believe is Russian propaganda and nutty conspiracy theories. Your the last guy that needs to attempt to talk about reality.
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Orange Immortal [63287]
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Ultimate Tiger [37261]
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Good luck, edgy takes and links to tweets***
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Feb 19, 2025, 11:17 AM
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Campus Hero [13487]
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Sure
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Feb 19, 2025, 12:20 PM
[ in reply to Please elaborate.*** ] |
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In principle, how are we as Americans, not only okay with, but supportive of one country invading another sovereign nation, strictly for the benefit of the invader, with tens of thousands of lives lost along the way?
OK, off the top of my head:
1) America First people are not "supportive" of Russia and that is an ad hominem attack meant to avoid discussing the logic of the situation. (I often mock this)
2) Ukraine is not a sovereign nation. Ukraine has been manipulated by the US, specifically Victoria Newland (sic), who orchestrated a color revolution to remove their democratically elected government. It is effectively a puppet of the US/NATO.
3) The "invasion" by Russia was not strictly for Russia's benefit. Since 2014, Ukraine has been shelling the ethnic Russians in the Donbas region in an attempt to ethnically cleanse the territory, in direct violation of the Minsk Accords. The people who live there voted to separate from Ukraine and asked Russia for protection. Russia refused for many years, until they finally decided to intervene.
4) Russia did not invade all of Ukraine, they set up strategic defensive lines to protect Donbas and Ukraine refused to negotiate and (with the support of the US) continued to attack their positions, so Russia moved forward in an effort to end the war.
5) More like 1 million + , all needlessly.
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All-Time Great [89015]
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There's not much reason to read anything past "Ukraine isn't a sovereign state"
Feb 20, 2025, 11:36 AM
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#1 is opinion fluff
#2 starts out false, at least as far as Ukrainians are concerned. Not much reason to continue after that.
If Trump said Putin was wrong and needed to get out of Ukraine, you'd be balls deep in saying Russia needs to leave.
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Campus Hero [13487]
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So it is your assertion that the US didn't overthrow the legitimate govt?***
Feb 20, 2025, 1:59 PM
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Gridiron Giant [15857]
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We're not ok with it
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Feb 19, 2025, 9:58 AM
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However, as has been stated here before, all wars end in either outright victory by one side or end in a negotiated settlement.
Ukraine alone does not possess the manpower to prosecute this war for years more on end. Russia does. Russia can and is wearing down Ukraine. Russia currently is advancing in some areas of eastern Ukraine at a pace not seen since 2022.
I would have liked to have seen Russia defeated, but unless NATO military might enters the war, that is not to be. If the US and NATO entered this war, Russia could be defeated, but it literally would probably result in a pyrrhic victory for the entire world.
It's unfortunate for Ukraine, but a deal needs to be reached to end this conflict. That deal will involve ceding some territory to Russia. That is facing reality. Continuing this war indefinitely will not be in Ukraine's best interest nor frankly Russia's.
Pragmatism must win out over idealism at times. This is one of those times as Ukraine is no closer to removing the Russians from eastern Ukraine or Crimea.
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1st Rounder [610]
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Re: We're not ok with it
Feb 19, 2025, 10:21 AM
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I don't know your profession, but if a lawyer i'd fire you without knowing anything else about you.
What kind of quitter weakass walks in to any negotiation with a hangdog attitude with quotes to go with it?
If you're not okay with something why would you roll over and hope someone rubs your belly?
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Gridiron Giant [15857]
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Re: We're not ok with it
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Feb 19, 2025, 10:40 AM
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Don't know your profession either, but if you're a lawyer, I wouldn't want to hire you. I'm not BTW.
I don't agree with Trump entering into unilateral discussions with Russia. Ukraine should definitely be part of any negotiated settlement discussions.
Having said all that, are you in favor of the US and NATO directly getting involved in this war? If not, do you honestly think Ukraine with continued support will actually repel Russia from Ukraine?
It's a numbers game and Ukraine is not winning the numbers game nor will it. The European members of NATO after the war is concluded should step up and be in Ukraine to ensure Russia won't try this again.
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Paw Warrior [5089]
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Re: We're not ok with it
Feb 19, 2025, 10:59 AM
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What happened with Russia and Afghanistan? They were far less capable than the Ukranians, and Russia eventually left with their tail between their legs. The Russians are suffering everyday because of this war, which is unwinnable for them with healthy US support. They are currently begging Iran and NKorea for help. 😆 We supported the Afghans for 10 years.
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Paw Warrior [5089]
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Re: We're not ok with it
Feb 19, 2025, 10:27 AM
[ in reply to We're not ok with it ] |
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How did the Russian war with Afghanistan end?
What should Ukraine get out of a settlement if they are willing to cede territory? NATO membership ir a pinky promise?
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Orange Elite [5223]
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Why do you think you should get to make the decision for Ukraine?***
Feb 19, 2025, 11:11 AM
[ in reply to We're not ok with it ] |
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Oculus Spirit [41983]
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We are paying for it and therefor have a vested interest***
Feb 19, 2025, 11:42 AM
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Orange Elite [5223]
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Then your option is to withdraw the financial support
Feb 19, 2025, 11:46 AM
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not to surrender for them.
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Gridiron Giant [15857]
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Re: Why do you think you should get to make the decision for Ukraine?***
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Feb 19, 2025, 11:52 AM
[ in reply to Why do you think you should get to make the decision for Ukraine?*** ] |
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I have been dealing with some health issues with extended family the last 36hrs, so was unaware of Trump's statements regarding Ukraine and Zelensky. I totally disagree and am disgusted with what he said.
That however does not change my view that Ukraine does not have the manpower to repel Russia from Eastern Ukraine or Crimea and that a negotiated settlement talks should be initiated.
Trump though is sending a horrible message to the entire world by blaming the war on Ukraine and has now shown his hand fully to Putin that Putin can get a much better deal than had we entered tough negotiations while supporting Ukraine as the nonaggressor.
Ukraine is free to fight on as long as they wish, but it would appear Trump has shoved a shiv in Ukraine's back as it is obvious Trump is looking to pull financial and military support of Ukraine to get a "deal."
Two things can be true. I support a negotiated settlement but absolutely not in this manner. This appeasement may well bite us in the ### for years to come.
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CU Medallion [20943]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Theres a group of Americans who will follow Trump regardless of issue
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Feb 19, 2025, 10:02 AM
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Seriously it is really that simple.
Watch the same group endorse MAGA’s budget and increases the debt limit by $4 trillion. They will also buy whatever explanation is given for unfavorable economic metrics etc. For many, following Trump is an act of faith rather than critical analysis. Information that doesn’t fit the MAGA religion is fake, lies propagated by liberal MSM. Bad news is blamed on Democrats, NeoCons, MIC, foreign countries often with a conspiracy theory is tossed in for good measure.
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Ultimate Tiger [37261]
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Re: Theres a group of Americans who will follow Trump regardless of issue
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Feb 19, 2025, 10:14 AM
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This is the bottom line, it’s been almost a decade of conditioning now, and 40% of the country is successfully divorced from reality
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Paw Master [17752]
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Re: Theres a group of Americans who will follow Trump regardless of issue
Feb 19, 2025, 3:07 PM
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Pretty fascinating watching what the internet has done to them.
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Ultimate Tiger [37261]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
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Feb 19, 2025, 10:03 AM
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This thread has been a WILD read. Some of yall have lost touch with any sense of reality.
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Clemson Conqueror [11874]
TigerPulse: 100%
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It's amazing how easy it is to read a threads when you've ignore all the Muskers***
Feb 19, 2025, 10:19 AM
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Campus Hero [14027]
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you know, I heard the other day, right now we have the most
Feb 19, 2025, 10:23 AM
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armed conflicts going on in the world of any point in time in history.
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Game Changer [2093]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
Feb 19, 2025, 11:49 AM
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Americans are not ok w this.
JD Vance and Trump in way over their head.
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Orange Phenom [14731]
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It's called battlefield reality
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Feb 19, 2025, 12:46 PM
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Generally - I'm not OK with one country invading another and taking land/resources. But regardless of whether I'm OK with it or not - the norm throughout human history has been one of tribes, nations, and countries invading one another for land and resources. That's the common theme of our human existence. So... to think the UN would be able to freeze all existing national boundaries from now until the end of time is simply stupid and ignores the most basic elements of our human existence...
As it pertains to the current situation in Ukraine.... Foreign Policy is finally giving way to battlefield reality that does not care about politics, feelings or right/wrong. Battlefield reality is truly the most raw but truthful state in which humans exist. The battlefield reality in Ukraine is that Ukraine no longer has the ability to push Russia out of the Donbas/Eastern Ukraine.
The reality is the manpower shortages in Ukraine are starting to manifest themselves in a lack of combat power to the point that even technology and additional weaponry are unable to compensate. Russia, has no such shortages and has a 10 to 1 manpower advantage with even more available manpower resources. There is no "magic" weapon system that the world can give Ukraine to change the current conflict trajectory which is decidedly in Russia's favor. See previous discussion here on Ukraine's manpower problem: https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/re-the-war-in-ukraine-needs-to-come-to-a-negotiated-end...-35867377
The battlefield reality in Ukraine is now presenting the world with a choice. If we wish to see Russia give up the Eastern Ukraine lands it will require active military intervention by outside foreign military forces (i.e. NATO or other European forces). That being the case there is only one question left to ask:
"Is it in the US and Europe's national interests to commit military forces to Ukraine knowing it WILL expand the conflict with the real possibility of Western Europe being actively targeted/bombed and the civilian/military casualties that such intervention will incur."
My answer, as is apparently the USA's and "free" Europe's answer, is a resounding "NO". It is not worth the conflict escalation (that even risks a nuclear exchange) for the sake of Ukraine holding on to their Eastern lands. Furthermore, there is an ever growing movement of "draft dodging" in Ukraine as even Ukraine's own citizenry do not believe that it is worth dying to maintain those areas. Add to it that over half of Ukrainians are now wanting to negotiate and end to the war and are willing to cede land to get it:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx
That's the nature of battlefield reality. It eventually burns through the emotional pleas, narratives, and propaganda and presents a truth that can't be overcome by politics.
So.. it's NOT a foreign policy principle of liking Putin, or condoning Russia's invasion. It's the battlefield reality that Ukraine can't kick Russia out and the rest of the world (rightfully so IMO) is unwilling to militarily intervene to assist Ukraine in doing so. That's the cold hard truth.
That being the case we are now facing a situation where to continue this war is to condone industrial killing for an outcome that the battlefield has already determined. As such, I find the current situation demands a negotiated cease fire and end of hostilities as quickly as possible. IMO that is now the moral imperative - to stop the killing and end this destructive conflict.
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Orange Immortal [63287]
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Thanks for a thoughtful response.
Feb 19, 2025, 7:49 PM
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I can understand that angle, and that we want to avoid a long, costly involvement, especially if it means the U.S. must bear the brunt of the burden. We sure don't want another Vietnam or Afghanastan. Therefore, we may indeed be better off ending this now no matter what.
I think it's a big mistake, however, to in any way reward, or appear to reward Putin and Russia for invading another country, regardless of invasions and conquests being a normal part of history. I'm all for Europe stepping up and doing more, but I don't think being afraid to criticize Russia and Putin while blaming Ukraine has to be a part of it, and that's the part I don't understand or agree with. Pretending that Putin anything but a totally self-serving murdering dictator may be useful in the short term, in order to gain and maintain peace, but would be an extremely foolish and dangerous ongoing strategy.
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Orange Phenom [14731]
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IMO it's not a question of rewarding or not rewarding Russia
Feb 20, 2025, 11:20 AM
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Putin took what he wanted and paid a heavy price to get it (decimated large chunks of Russian military stocks and have suffered some 400k(+) causalities). Because Putin has staked his regimes credibility (and arguably its survivability) on this war - he ain't going to give up those Eastern Ukraine lands he now occupies without someone militarily making him do so. I simply do not see any scenario in which that happens. Is that distasteful?? Absolutely but it is also the real world in which we live where all too often the good guys don't win. Simply put - at this point neither Ukraine, the USA or Europe are going to stop Putin from getting what he has taken and it is time to pursue an end to this conflict.
I've stated previously that I expect any negotiated settlement will have Putin keeping the Donbas region, Ukraine maintaining their sovereignty but with a guarantee from the West that Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO (Ukraine remaining out of NATO will be non-negotiable for Russia). There will also need to be a DMZ area where some foreign military force (one acceptable to both sides) patrols/occupies the DMZ to prevent hostilities from kicking up again. As distasteful and abhorrent as it is to see Putin get a chunk of Ukraine, I think this is as good of a deal as Ukraine is going to get.
If we want to talk of punishing Putin/Russia for his actions then there are two things I think the USA and Europe can do that don't involve starting WW3 over Ukraine. The biggest hurt point for Russia is to reduce their energy revenue and influence they derive through energy sales to Europe. If the USA and Europe want to punish Russia then we both must commit taking the actions necessary to stop Europe from relying on the Russian energy spigot. That takes a tremendous shift in European policy as well as increases in US energy production. Secondly - Western Europe must greatly increase their military spending and the size/lethality of their military forces. The last thing Putin wants is for Western Europe to have strong/sizeable military forces that are capable of standing up for themselves.
One last thought... Putin ain't a spring chicken - particularly for a Russian where the average male life expectancy is 70. He's already 72 and will probably die within the next 10 years if not sooner. Will Russia remain a European villain once death removes Putin from power?? How does the USA and Europe posture ourselves for the best possible outcome in a post Putin Russian power struggle?? In my mind the best strategy for now is reducing Putin's energy sales and resulting influence as a method of containing him and waiting him out. Putin/Russia is ill positioned militarily to start another conflict and so negotiating a Ukrainian peace with Russia is not some pre-WW2 Neville Chamberlain "peace in our time" move. I find it to be the sensible and moral thing to do at this point.
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Paw Warrior [5089]
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Re: It's called battlefield reality
Feb 19, 2025, 11:45 PM
[ in reply to It's called battlefield reality ] |
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Remember when Afghanistan, a country far less sophisticated and about the same size as Ukraine, was losing the Russian invasion and had no chance to kick them out? 😆
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Clemson Conqueror [11656]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
Feb 19, 2025, 2:10 PM
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why do we and europe fund both combatants is what you are missing
US through Walmart/China
Europe paying Russia for fuel
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Paw Master [17752]
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Re: Foreign policy experts, help me understand . . .
Feb 19, 2025, 11:46 PM
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Explain?
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