Replies: 87
| visibility 1561
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 1:02 PM
|
|
That was one of the best sporting events I've ever witnessed
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2441]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
|
You just witnessed the greatest soccer game ever played
Dec 18, 2022, 1:06 PM
|
|
But be prepared for lots of silly responses.
|
|
|
|
|
1st Rounder [621]
TigerPulse: 85%
21
|
Re: You just witnessed the greatest soccer game ever played
Dec 18, 2022, 2:04 PM
|
|
I think you might be right about that. Best I've ever seen. Argentina deserved it hands down. What a thrilling match.
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [16128]
TigerPulse: 97%
51
Posts: 24632
Joined: 2002
|
And the 5-8 Falcons vs 4-9 Saints is still on instead of the
Dec 18, 2022, 1:09 PM
|
|
trophy ceremony. Welcome to the United States of America.
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Legend [12529]
TigerPulse: 72%
47
Posts: 21078
Joined: 2005
|
Re: And the 5-8 Falcons vs 4-9 Saints is still on instead of the
Dec 18, 2022, 1:14 PM
|
|
Dude. This is the USA. Football is king. You know that, everyone knows that.
How is this shocking to you
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [16128]
TigerPulse: 97%
51
Posts: 24632
Joined: 2002
|
Not at all shocking...You read that wrong.
Dec 18, 2022, 1:17 PM
|
|
I'm just saying, all these people are wanting Americans to admit soccer is the best sport because the rest of the world watches it and it their #1 sport.
It's not even in the top 4 here. Get used to it.
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Sports Icon [57063]
TigerPulse: 100%
59
Posts: 44500
Joined: 2003
|
I would rather watch curling.***
Dec 18, 2022, 3:10 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Sports Icon [58731]
TigerPulse: 100%
59
Posts: 23803
Joined: 2011
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Elite [5125]
TigerPulse: 100%
38
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [8301]
TigerPulse: 96%
43
|
Id rather try to fold fitted sheets for 3 hours.***
Dec 18, 2022, 1:11 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [9905]
TigerPulse: 100%
44
|
Re: Id rather try to fold fitted sheets for 3 hours.***
Dec 18, 2022, 7:51 PM
|
|
? Good one!
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [23157]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Legend [12529]
TigerPulse: 72%
47
Posts: 21078
Joined: 2005
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 1:13 PM
|
|
I enjoy the World Cup.
I do not enjoy soccer in general. Maybe casual enjoyment of a premier league game.
The problem is people comparing the biggest event in that sports arsenal and saying “look this is soccer” which is not being honest.
It would be similar to the Super Bowl and then asking people in France (who likely get this game on broadcast) and then saying “this is what all of football looks like” Its like saying
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [257]
TigerPulse: 81%
14
|
Also using one of the best/most exciting games in that event’s
Dec 18, 2022, 2:57 PM
|
|
history as the example. Other World Cup games were not as exciting as that game.
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Sports Icon [58438]
TigerPulse: 100%
59
Posts: 11784
Joined: 2019
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 1:18 PM
|
|
Most of us older guys didn't grow up with soccer. I watched it at Clemson in the very early 80's, but other than that I just haven't had much interest.
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [16155]
TigerPulse: 100%
51
Posts: 16882
Joined: 2015
|
‘Cause they have the worst overtime ever***
Dec 18, 2022, 1:19 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Conqueror [11457]
TigerPulse: 100%
46
|
Re: ‘Cause they have the worst overtime ever***
Dec 18, 2022, 1:55 PM
|
|
They could try to be like the NFL and if the guy hits the 1st PK the other team doesn't get a chance.
30 minutes extra prior to going to PK's puts it well above the NFL>
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [257]
TigerPulse: 81%
14
|
It needs to be golden goal***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:58 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Letterman [257]
TigerPulse: 81%
14
|
The fact that you can score a goal, the first overtime ends,
Dec 18, 2022, 3:00 PM
|
|
and you still have to play another overtime makes no sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [39166]
TigerPulse: 100%
57
Posts: 51709
Joined: 2004
|
That's not how NFL overtime works
Dec 18, 2022, 11:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: ‘Cause they have the worst overtime ever*** ] |
|
and hasn't for several years.
Unless you're saying driving down the field and scoring a TD is equivalent in difficulty to hitting a PK, which would be a mind-blowingly stupid take.
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [1662]
TigerPulse: 100%
31
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 1:21 PM
|
|
Great game, people love to say they hate soccer. If you don’t like it don’t watch it. I can’t stand baseball but I don’t post how boring it is every time someone post about it
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4123]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 1:28 PM
|
|
I’m 65 years old, just watched and enjoyed the World Cup. I still love college football but put soccer second now.
|
|
|
|
|
Game Changer [1662]
TigerPulse: 100%
31
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 1:35 PM
|
|
Awesome! It’s a great game. Glad you enjoyed
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3625]
TigerPulse: 98%
35
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 1:33 PM
|
|
They like college baseball.
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [108465]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
Try hitting them with your purse, that might work.***
Dec 18, 2022, 1:41 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [29015]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 21836
Joined: 2007
|
Re: Try hitting them with your purse, that might work.***
Dec 18, 2022, 1:43 PM
|
|
What is silly about not liking soccer. Either you do or you don't. Nothing silly bout not liking a certain sport.
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Try hitting them with your purse, that might work.***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:08 PM
|
|
Didn't say it was silly, said it was hard to see how it's not enjoyable..HTH
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Try hitting them with your purse, that might work.***
Dec 18, 2022, 3:07 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Try hitting them with your purse, that might work.***
Dec 18, 2022, 3:12 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [108465]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
Awww, thanks, you're precious. Need a tissue?***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:19 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Awww, thanks, you're precious. Need a tissue?***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:22 PM
|
|
Just checking in you, buddy
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [108465]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
Re: Awww, thanks, you're precious. Need a tissue?***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:24 PM
|
|
Just checking in you, buddy
Just checking in you, buddy
You seem nervous, do you need a do over?
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Awww, thanks, you're precious. Need a tissue?***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:30 PM
|
|
Just checking in on you, buddy. I will pray for you! Hoping you find happiness ❤️
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [108465]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
See, you took your time, made things happen. Isn't that...
Dec 18, 2022, 2:35 PM
|
|
far better than crapping yourself as you did the first time?
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: See, you took your time, made things happen. Isn't that...
Dec 18, 2022, 2:37 PM
|
|
My friend it's not that serious, I don't enjoy swimming but when Michael Phelps won in 08 it was as entertaining as anything. Was just saying even for the casual fan that match had to be exciting. And you randomly resort to calling me a woman.
You are obviously much older than me but I still feel the need to tell you, grow up.
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [108465]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
Apparently it is, you're still here whacking away.
Dec 18, 2022, 2:42 PM
|
|
I didn't call you a woman, I suggested you hit them with your purse, you soccer loving, satchel swinger.
If those tears in your OP weren't working, the rolling around kicking & screaming weren't finding purchase, then maybe you need to step up your game?
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Apparently it is, you're still here whacking away.
Dec 18, 2022, 2:54 PM
|
|
Ah, ad hominem. The true sign of being under someone's skin.
I don't take the internet as seriously as you I guess? Have a good day!
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [108465]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
Thanks, now go clean yourself up after the mess you made.***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:57 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [47591]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 35354
Joined: 2003
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [108465]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
You're up to 40 now on ignore & ~half of those can't TD...
Dec 18, 2022, 3:12 PM
|
|
So you're not just protecting your pulse, which is hilarious in & of itself.
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [47591]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 35354
Joined: 2003
|
I don’t ignore people because they TD me.
Dec 19, 2022, 1:09 AM
|
|
I put people on ignore whose posts I don’t want to read anymore. You know that’s why it was created, right?
But that has nothing to do with you getting so bothered by what people post. You’ve created how many threads about me lately? LOL!
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [108465]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 64972
Joined: 2006
|
No emojis this time, just "LOL"? You ignore people because
Dec 19, 2022, 1:21 AM
|
|
you're so thin-skinned.
I get it, and to protect that nice pulse, coot.
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Spirit [9561]
TigerPulse: 70%
44
|
Can’t believe people
1
Dec 18, 2022, 1:44 PM
|
|
can’t enjoy soccer without needing other people to enjoy soccer.
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Can’t believe people
Dec 18, 2022, 2:05 PM
|
|
Not a need just an observation. Enjoy your limited sports
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Spirit [9561]
TigerPulse: 70%
44
|
What did you think of that Louisville-Texas volleyball match yesterday?***
1
Dec 18, 2022, 3:14 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: What did you think of that Louisville-Texas volleyball match yesterday?***
Dec 18, 2022, 9:06 PM
|
|
I would have no problem watching that if that's what you're assuming. I find joy in a lot of sports others do not.
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Spirit [9273]
TigerPulse: 94%
44
Posts: 13909
Joined: 2002
|
It was a yawned up until.......
Dec 18, 2022, 1:46 PM
|
|
the 75 minute or so. THEN it became the match it was expected to be. Too bad both teams couldn't win
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Spirit [9965]
TigerPulse: 56%
44
Posts: 13068
Joined: 2006
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 1:49 PM
|
|
I love our football but very few American football players could make even 1 half of a soccer game without needing oxygen or getting hurt. If you are lucky enough to visit Italy, Portugal or Spain, just to name 3, you will understand after you see children all across the country kicking a soccer ball.
|
|
|
|
|
Paw Master [16128]
TigerPulse: 97%
51
Posts: 24632
Joined: 2002
|
They are training for two different things from a young age.
Dec 18, 2022, 1:56 PM
|
|
Pretty sure nearly every soccer player would be in the hospital after one hit in college football (much less the NFL) from the "injuries" I've seen in the World Cup.
When guys are getting carried off the field from someone kicking there leg...You know its soft.
|
|
|
|
|
Gridiron Giant [16050]
TigerPulse: 100%
50
|
The semis weren’t great, but the last round of group play
Dec 18, 2022, 1:58 PM
|
|
through today was so much fun to watch!!
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3777]
TigerPulse: 64%
35
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 2:02 PM
|
|
Have to agree. I've never liked soccer but that was incredible. The emotion on both sides was amazing.
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 2:07 PM
|
|
It really is hard to match the intensity and environment
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4599]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 2:26 PM
|
|
Real (non-PK) goals: 2-1 Argentina. The right team won. Penalty kicks are a farce. Free scoring is a bad system of enforcement for a sport where 1 goal usually wins. That was as good a game as the sport has to offer though.
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Conqueror [11128]
TigerPulse: 100%
46
Posts: 13201
Joined: 2014
|
What was the score?***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:28 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4599]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: What was the score?***
Dec 18, 2022, 2:30 PM
|
|
Went to PK shootout. Tied 3-3. Argentina won the shootout 4-2 I think?
|
|
|
|
|
Dynasty Maker [3596]
TigerPulse: 100%
34
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 2:45 PM
|
|
The World Cup was definitely a hard fought match, but Army Navy was also a heckuva football game this year. Not the best display of athleticism if that's what you want to see, but two teams going after each other with unrelenting heart and determination on every play, and they left everything they had on the field.
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [47591]
TigerPulse: 77%
58
Posts: 35354
Joined: 2003
|
That was an incredible match!
Dec 18, 2022, 3:03 PM
|
|
I feel sorry for those who didn’t watch it.
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [9036]
TigerPulse: 100%
43
Posts: 10704
Joined: 2003
|
I’m sure I’ll survive not seeing it!***
Dec 18, 2022, 3:08 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [98655]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 97918
Joined: 2009
|
I was going to watch it but...
Dec 18, 2022, 3:11 PM
|
|
the lawn care company was weedeating and that's more exciting to me than soccer.
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [3631]
TigerPulse: 100%
35
|
Re: I was going to watch it but...
Dec 18, 2022, 3:26 PM
|
|
I got a haircut and started watching my hair grow back. That's the equivalent of a soccer game to me. To each their own though. No problem with people enjoying the sport.
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Beast [6539]
TigerPulse: 100%
40
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 3:32 PM
|
|
I wouldn't watch soccer if Christy Brinkley was playing goalie in the nude!
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2249]
TigerPulse: 97%
32
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 3:44 PM
|
|
You know ppl probably wouldn't pushback near as often if one soccer fans didn't insist on how great it is and how others don't enjoy worshipping it and two continuously try and shove it down our throats. You ask for the pushback yourselves, period. Why else would you be on a Clemson site built and driven by football to tell all us simple minded folk how you don't understand how we don't like it.
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 9:04 PM
|
|
That is very weird if that's what you got out of my post. Simply saying an incredible sporting event is hard to call boring. Not pushing it down anyone's throat.
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [14751]
TigerPulse: 93%
49
Posts: 22551
Joined: 2003
|
I can't believe people care others don't like it and push it
Dec 18, 2022, 3:58 PM
|
|
like an some kind of agenda.
So weird, I never gave second thought to people who don't watch the sports I watch.
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [11088]
TigerPulse: 100%
45
Posts: 13561
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 3:59 PM
|
|
Can't believe people actually watch soccer.
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [23195]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
Posts: 13029
Joined: 2007
|
American football is more my thing, but I have to admit
Dec 18, 2022, 4:05 PM
|
|
it sure would be nice to be able to watch an entire half of football without a single commercial break.
|
|
|
|
|
Offensive Star [305]
TigerPulse: 98%
15
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 7:49 PM
|
|
Played soccer at a pretty high level in high school, won 2 intramural championships on Riggs... generally can't tolerate watching soccer unless it's an impactful Clemson game or important world cup game involving US or Italy. But, today's game was insane.
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [100]
TigerPulse: 93%
11
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 7:51 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Campus Hero [13368]
TigerPulse: 100%
48
Posts: 16724
Joined: 2010
|
Soccer is the communism of sports.***
Dec 18, 2022, 8:01 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Offensive Star [305]
TigerPulse: 98%
15
|
Re: Soccer is the communism of sports.***
Dec 18, 2022, 8:29 PM
|
|
Weird thing to say when all professional American sports go to great lengths to buoy crap teams and stifle successful teams.
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [7022]
TigerPulse: 100%
41
Posts: 10649
Joined: 2003
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 8:22 PM
|
|
I could, but I don't want to. I would prefer watching paint dry or ice melt.
|
|
|
|
|
Ring of Honor [23157]
TigerPulse: 100%
53
|
II's still the "beautiful game"... and nothing will ever change
Dec 18, 2022, 8:47 PM
|
|
that. And across the planet... the World Cup is like the Super Bowl, World Series & the Masters all rolled into one.
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [7022]
TigerPulse: 100%
41
Posts: 10649
Joined: 2003
|
Re: II's still the "beautiful game"... and nothing will ever change
Dec 18, 2022, 8:48 PM
|
|
Glad they enjo
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [1298]
TigerPulse: 55%
27
|
Re: II's still the "beautiful game"... and nothing will ever change
Dec 19, 2022, 11:59 AM
[ in reply to II's still the "beautiful game"... and nothing will ever change ] |
|
I don't watch any of them unless my teams are in them. And most on CBS Sports app sitting through those total games or series is like watching paint dry
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [76]
TigerPulse: 64%
8
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 9:59 PM
|
|
I can’t believe people can’t stop trying to shove soccer down the throats of us that finds it boring. We get it that medication and therapy didn’t help your kids so you used soccer as a babysitter.
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [1234]
TigerPulse: 100%
27
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 18, 2022, 11:38 PM
|
|
Love the game now, but it took a while. Fell in love when Ib was bringing us the Nigerians that nobody else knew what to do with. Loved it! Remember seeing one of our first breakaway plays- long bomb to Xambuk. Looked like he was gone for the score! No. Offsides! That was a rude awakening and frankli still is. Anyway, great,great match today. Franchise seemed to have the better team IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [39232]
TigerPulse: 100%
57
Posts: 22472
Joined: 2003
|
The Injury fakes fixed by the magic spray
Dec 19, 2022, 12:41 AM
|
|
And rolled towel are amazing. Soccer sports medicine is light years ahead of football
|
|
|
|
|
Valley Protector [1459]
TigerPulse: 100%
29
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 19, 2022, 7:34 AM
|
|
The best two teams, with arguably the best two players in the world, coming down to penalties.
That was an incredible game
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5713]
TigerPulse: 100%
39
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 19, 2022, 7:55 AM
|
|
I just don’t like being bored to death for 2 or 3 scoreless hours while grown men flop around on the ground like fish out of water.
Glad you enjoyed the match. I just don’t care to waste my time watching something I don’t like.
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2458]
TigerPulse: 100%
32
|
I didn’t see the game
Dec 19, 2022, 8:07 AM
|
|
Just the part at the end where they play that other game after nobody could win at soccer
|
|
|
|
|
1st Rounder [609]
TigerPulse: 100%
21
|
Re: I didn’t see the game
Dec 19, 2022, 8:29 AM
|
|
When is it?
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2575]
TigerPulse: 90%
32
|
Enjoyed it mostly because of
Dec 19, 2022, 11:24 AM
|
|
the great announcers both radio and TV who were able to explain the nuances. Pretty flawed design in the game makes for numerous ties however - not good. But does allow the "little guy" to stay competitive, if that's what people are looking for. It's a game somewhat like American football in that one team can "outplay" the other but yet actually be behind in score, or at least tied. Game needs some design tweaks to allow more scoring.
Interestingly, many American major sports have undergone plenty of design adjustments over the years for various reasons - for instance, basketball, the 3 pt line; football, rules for passing and goalposts moved back. Baseball - not so much though. Still all things the same, I believe.
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [1298]
TigerPulse: 55%
27
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 19, 2022, 11:42 AM
|
|
Team USA was terrible in the World Cup. Clemson FC would be better representation or take ALL STAR ACC team there. They didn't really try to score but if got goal they switched to defense. If like American football back in the day when team play prevent defense in second halves usually ended up losing or barely winning after big lead
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [1298]
TigerPulse: 55%
27
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 19, 2022, 11:47 AM
|
|
I like high school and college soccer pro soccer okay but not all areas have pro teams. World Soccer is joke will all the acting fishy officiating. One ref for the entire field tons of missed calls.
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4186]
TigerPulse: 62%
36
|
Re: Can't believe people can't enjoy soccer
Dec 19, 2022, 1:23 PM
|
|
That game might be the best championship WC game ever - second half and overtime were incredible
|
|
|
|
Replies: 87
| visibility 1561
|
|
|