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CU Guru [1896]
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Deer BOT and Administration, About Clemson Basketball.....
Mar 17, 2013, 8:53 PM
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If we are to be kept in the ACC, a basketball conference, then the 101 years of Clemson basketball indifference has to END! I'm 62 years old and sick and tired of this.
As of 2013 a few cold hard facts:
Clemson's record against ACC teams during our 59 years in the Conference 305-558 for 35%
In 59 years the men's team has never won the ACC Tournament and therefore a recognized ACC Championship (yes we have a regular season championship)
We have been to the ACC Tournament final game only twice and our record in the tournament is 17-60 for 22%
Every charter member of the conference has won at least one title except us. In addition, GT, FSU and Miami have won a title
Our record against Tobacco Road is UNC 20-127, Duke 29-104, NCSU 48-99 and Wake 56-98
Tigernation has been beat down so long most just try to pretend basketball is not there.
I like Coach Brownell a great deal but I've seen this movie. Good young coach comes in recruits those "diamonds in the rough" hoping they develop and then leaves in a few years or gets fired.
I have no easy answer but it will take a commitment from the BOT like we are making to football to make a difference. Which means money and making basketball a priority. We need to show some of that "Determined Spirit" or is that just PR?
The Clemson I know and love is better than this!
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110%er [7928]
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preach it brother***
Mar 17, 2013, 9:01 PM
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Orange Blooded [2298]
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Re: Deer BOT and Administration, About Clemson Basketball.....
Mar 17, 2013, 9:02 PM
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I feel your pain, but for the bad percentage, we didn't care about basketball for most of that time
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Paw Warrior [4799]
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Re: Deer BOT and Administration, About Clemson Basketball.....
Mar 18, 2013, 8:51 AM
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Our percentages in the last 15 years isn't much better.
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Clemson Sports Icon [59572]
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Re: Deer BOT and Administration, About Clemson Basketball.....
Mar 18, 2013, 5:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: Deer BOT and Administration, About Clemson Basketball..... ] |
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If the BOT'S and who ever really give a single hard turd about Clemson Basketball. The men and women wouldn't have to share the same arena for practice. Sharing the same arena would be fine if the men and women wasn't sharing side by side seasons. Build our men's basketball there own practice gym for starters. Give our men's coach something that shows we care about basketball. Good recruits are not coming to a place where basketball shows absolutely no interest in basketball. The way things are with the basketball program at Clemson. I don't think that a coach like Smart could make much of a difference until a strong interest is being shown from the top.
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Orange Blooded [3677]
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I do not usually get into these woe is me rants
Mar 17, 2013, 9:07 PM
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but yours is well founded, well researched and I agree
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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and SC has one more ACC title than we do.***
Mar 17, 2013, 9:16 PM
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110%er [5776]
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As my elder I respect and totally agree with your assessment
Mar 17, 2013, 9:30 PM
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said the 61 year old Clemson Tiger fan.
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Associate AD [1068]
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Re: As my elder I respect and totally agree with your assessment
Mar 18, 2013, 1:05 PM
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Ditto, said the 60-year old.
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Solid Orange [1319]
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I think EVERYONE agrees with this
Mar 17, 2013, 9:43 PM
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obviously, from the cold hard facts mentioned, the problem didn't just develop. To act like it did is foolish.
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Associate AD [1068]
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Re: I think EVERYONE agrees with this
Mar 18, 2013, 1:09 PM
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Well, historically, we made a decision in 1939 to NOT participate in the NCAA tournament for fear of disrupting spring football practice. Would it have been different if we had gone, won big and generated an interest in basketball? We will never know, but we do know we had a chance to do something different and did not. I hate to see good $ go to waste but it is time to do something different or else we just keep on demonstrating the Einstein definition of insanity.
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Trainer [25]
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Build It
Mar 17, 2013, 10:16 PM
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Which is why the only move that makes sense is to support Brownell and to build a practice facility. The guy can do it, but nobody can overcome that much history in a hurry.
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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LOL, the "only move that makes sense" as you say is exactly
Mar 17, 2013, 10:40 PM
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how we stay where we are.
The answer is getting rid of him before 1 to 2 more years of damage and building a new arena.
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110%er [6938]
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Re:It certainly is not going to get easier for him.***
Mar 17, 2013, 11:12 PM
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Recruit [97]
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110%er [7928]
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He's got a yr to show improvement
Mar 18, 2013, 8:46 AM
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hopefully that happens...if he doesn't the ticket sales are what will kill him....he's in one of the toughest jobs in the country....incredibly tough job. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't walk away at the end of next yr to another job. Louisville...top seed in the NCAA tournament joining the conf in 2014. ND...7 seed in the tourney....Pitt in the tourney.....Cuse in the tourney. Everyone joining is good. We lose Maryland but the conference is much harder as a result of expansion. Brad's team could be better than some of OP's and still just make the NIT or maybe not even make it to post season at all. It's an incredibly hard job.
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Recruit [97]
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Agreed. He needs the program to take a step forward.***
Mar 18, 2013, 9:00 AM
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110%er [7928]
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It's an incredibly tall mountain....that every Clemson coach
Mar 18, 2013, 9:01 AM
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before him has tried to climb and it just got a lot taller.
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Recruit [97]
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Do you mean winning the ACC or getting better?
Mar 18, 2013, 9:03 AM
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We can better regardless of who is in the league.
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110%er [7928]
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we can be but with the tougher competition that doesn't
Mar 18, 2013, 9:10 AM
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mean its going to show in the results...we could be a better team next year and win the same number of games with the teams the ACC is adding. ND, Pitt, Cuse, and Louisville are really good and all focused on being really good.
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Recruit [97]
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I disagree. If we're better, then it will most definitely
Mar 18, 2013, 9:13 AM
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show in the results.
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110%er [7928]
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doesn't always work itself out like that
Mar 18, 2013, 9:19 AM
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you want it to but just because you're better doesn't mean you're better in results....especially if the competition is even better than what you played before. You may show progress but the average fan won't be able to see it because all they look at is Win/loss record. I don't think most fans realize how hard this job is that Brad has....I have a friend of mine who used to be an AAU coach and was a scout for the Orlando Magic. We were playing golf recently and we talked about how hard this job is....to him it's one of the hardest jobs in the country with the competition, lack of good facilities, lack of tradition, lack of instate players, etc. It's extremely hard. The players we recruit aren't players most of our competition recruits. So we develop our players over time. They might show dramatic improvement and that might show up in the W/L column and you hope it will.
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Recruit [97]
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Again, disagree. If we're improved then it will be readily
Mar 18, 2013, 9:25 AM
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evident both on the court and in the W/L column. Need to remember too - a couple made Fts or a couple slightly different bounces earlier in the season, and this young team may have responded better down the stretch.
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110%er [7928]
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I wish it was that simple and getting better always
Mar 18, 2013, 9:30 AM
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translated to the W/L column.
There a couple of reasons why....
1. We are starting with players who aren't as good as the players a lot of competition is recruiting/playing. They are playing catch up.
2. Our competition isn't standing still....they start with better players and in some cases have better coaches who are developing their players as well. Those younger players are coming into a system and the older players are teaching the younger players how to win...how to play winning basketball...we don't have older players who can do that...our coaches are having to do it.
Hopefully we will see the results. I hope Brad can be here for many years and we can put some banners up in LJ/new arena.
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Recruit [97]
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It is that simple.
Mar 18, 2013, 9:31 AM
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If we're better it will show in every way.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: LOL, the "only move that makes sense" as you say is exactly
Mar 18, 2013, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to LOL, the "only move that makes sense" as you say is exactly ] |
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Ok If that is only move that makes sense, tell me WHO is going to come to Clemson to coach? What big name coach do you really think we can lure away, or what young potentially good up & coming mid major coach would you want? We just hired one of those a few years ago....Give us some names - not some wild wish list but who do you think we can get given our history???
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110%er [7928]
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you really can't do anything at this point but sit back and
Mar 18, 2013, 12:42 PM
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see if we improve...we don't support the program enough to lure anyone here.
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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Well we had two reasonably successful coaches (2 of the
Mar 17, 2013, 10:32 PM
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last 4 in fact) and both LEFT on their own for other offers.
So the first thing we need to do is figure out how to keep the coaches who are somewhat getting it "done". Until we can do that, it won't matter how good we get because they will keep leaving.
I think the writing is on the wall for the new Arena. It totally fits the bill of the new AD, his MO is to spend and spend BIG. He will want to leave a legacy and build up his resume, what better way to do it? Oversaw NEW arena at ACC school? Behind the scenes he is going to push this as hard as he can, ignore the press releases.
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Freshman [6]
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Re: Well we had two reasonably successful coaches (2 of the
Mar 17, 2013, 10:39 PM
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Dear Clemson fans. Donate the $$ and they will build it. Our priority has been fball bc we all speak with our $. If we want a good bball program, send the $$ to get started on new facilities.
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110%er [6938]
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Re:You only recruit 3 to 5 players a year for basketball.
Mar 17, 2013, 11:23 PM
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It is incumbent on BB that, somehow, he lands a couple of real good ones the next two years. He has no time to lose or he had better redo his resume.
That seat is getting hot. He was close in a lot of games, this year, but that will not play for long.
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110%er [7834]
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Fan support is a major issue
Mar 17, 2013, 11:26 PM
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Clemson is not surrounded by major metropolitan areas like the the big four. The highway system coming into Clemson makes it take a while to get to games....
And last but not least we don't cheat in basketball like the rest
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MVP [536]
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CAN I GETTA AMEN ! 1 !***
Mar 18, 2013, 12:23 AM
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Game Day Hero [4176]
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Money money money and choices.
Mar 18, 2013, 8:22 AM
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I am 54, graduated in 81, and have seen some good teams. But they come and go. I agree with what you wrote.
The issue is money. Clemson supporters donate a huge amount of money. When you factor in our student population compared to these much larger schools - the generosity is evident. When year after year, we graduate about 3k into the business world - vs say Ohio state pumping out 10k - the alumni population disparity is tremendous.
So, when we speak of new facilities, with a much smaller base to ask for money, you have to prioritize. We are proud of new locker room, weight facility, indoor football facility. But would you give those up for a new basketball facility? It is all about choices.
It is an easy comment to say we need a new arena. We would generally all agree with that. But where does the cash come from? Choices.
- increase ticket cost? To a fan base who is not filling the current one? This would probably drive more people away - creating less revenue.
- move existing money away from other choices? Oh boy, that would be a war. Football will not give it up, and most other sports are under funded now as well.
- hit up Iptay some more? Man, that is already being pumped and while a little more might be gained, we have been repeatedly asked to "step up" again and again.
- increase student costs? I doubt many students would tell you they could afford any more (or families paying it).
Ohio state example- bigger base means bigger opportunity.
As we know, life is about choices. We would all love to be great at basketball. The choice is how to get there. The new AD has some real issues here. In my opinion, we are on the verge of really being competitive for football national championships. Again, consider our size school and population - and that becomes very impressive. To now dilute those funds might keep that from happening. Look at those dreaded schools in the SEC. How many are good in basketball? Why?
Choices.
I don't have the answers. Unlike Obama, I do know that you cannot spend more than you have.
JMO anyway.
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Recruit [97]
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Obviously - the known historical facts suck. ....
Mar 18, 2013, 8:36 AM
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But what are you suggesting the BOT and Administration do about it? You vented but only suggested "money" and "priority". What are you referring to exactly?
I'm also curious. You said, "I like Coach Brownell a great deal but I've seen this movie."
Who are you referring to? Are you suggesting Brownell should be let go? Because he isn't going to be fired nor should he be.
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Orange Immortal [67581]
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The CUBOT and the AD does not read TigerNet...
Mar 18, 2013, 8:46 AM
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but I sure wish they did.
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110%er [7928]
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do you think the desire/belief is there to commit
Mar 18, 2013, 8:47 AM
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to basketball in a meaningful way to move this sport forward?
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Orange Immortal [67581]
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Unfortunately no, I do not.....
Mar 18, 2013, 8:54 AM
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The philosophy has been (and continues to be as far as I can see) to hire on the cheap, roll the dice with some new largely unproven up-and-coming young coach, and hope we get lucky.
This applies to all sports, not just mens basketball.
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110%er [7928]
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obviously you're aren't old enough to remember Coach Howard
Mar 18, 2013, 8:56 AM
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but didn't this philosophy start with him....basketball and every other sport outside of football for that matter....was treated by him as merely something else we do and the entire focus was on football?
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All-TigerNet [11024]
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Basketball was just an after thought most places in
Mar 18, 2013, 9:02 AM
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the South and plus we were a military school up until 1955. The only southern school that really took hoops seriously was Kentucky. Football was the big sport in NC until NCS began tio take it seriously with the hiring of Everett Case. The disease spread to Duke, UNC and Wake but never penetrated that SC state line except for the few years when Frank McGuire was at usEc.
The SEC schools were about like us...Hoops was an afterthought.
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110%er [7928]
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great point...Everett really started the ball rolling with
Mar 18, 2013, 9:11 AM
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basketball and the ACC tournament too.
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Recruit [97]
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LOL What?
Mar 18, 2013, 8:57 AM
[ in reply to Unfortunately no, I do not..... ] |
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That doesn't even make sense. I assume you're referring to Brownell? One guy, who has yet to run his course, is a BOT and ADMIN "philosophy"?
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Orange Immortal [67581]
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LOL...
Mar 18, 2013, 9:14 AM
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Rick Barnes, Larry Shyatt, Oliver Purnell, Brad Brownell, Christy McKinney, Itoro Coleman, Mike Noonan, Eddie Radwanski, Tommy West, Tommy Bowden, and Dabo Swinney (among others) all say hello.
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Recruit [97]
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At least you gave it an effort even though not correct on
Mar 18, 2013, 9:16 AM
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a lot of that. By the way, I thought the discussion was Men's basketball, but in any event it's Swinney, not Sweeney.
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Orange Immortal [67581]
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I could certainly agree with you....
Mar 18, 2013, 9:20 AM
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but then we'd both be wrong.
My original statement was that the philosophy of the CUBOT and AD has been to hire on the cheap, roll the dice with some new largely unproven up-and-coming young coach, and hope we get lucky. This applies to all sports, not just mens basketball.
Every name I mentioned absolutely falls into that category.
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110%er [7928]
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LOL....I needed that laugh on a Monday***
Mar 18, 2013, 9:21 AM
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Recruit [97]
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You should try to be less of a jack ###.
Mar 18, 2013, 9:30 AM
[ in reply to I could certainly agree with you.... ] |
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The discussion is clearly about men's basketball, and we haven't always hired on the cheap (lol @ the "cool factor"), rolled the dice with some new largely unproven up-and-coming young coach, nor merely hoped we would get lucky. Not every men's basketball coach you named falls into that category.
And, it's Swinney, not "Sweeney".
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Orange Immortal [67581]
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I'll try to be nicer if you'll try to be smarter.
Mar 18, 2013, 10:45 AM
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Yes, the discussion was initially about men's basketball but I specifically said the Administrations philosophy applies to all sports (which it does).
Which men's basketball coach named does not fall into that category.
Clemson hired Rick Barnes, an up-and-coming young coach, after a fairly successful six year run at Providence.
Clemson hired Larry Shyatt after one year at Wyoming Prior to that, Shyatt was an assistant under Barnes.
Clemson hired Olover Purnell after a moderately successful nine year stint at Dayton (a mid-major program).
Clemson hired Brownell after he spent four years at Wright State. Prior to that, he was at UNC-Wilmington.
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion and I respect your right to disagree with me but don't just disagree for the sake of being argumentative. At least provide the reasons to support your differing opinion.
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All-Time Great [96665]
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I TOTALLY AGREE! Get in or Get OUT. Spend the Money Now!
Mar 18, 2013, 11:03 AM
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GoTiGERs!
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Associate AD [1068]
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Re: I TOTALLY AGREE! Get in or Get OUT. Spend the Money Now!
Mar 18, 2013, 1:14 PM
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Or let's just get into the SEC and then almost instantly we become competitive in basketball with all except Ky and maybe UF.
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Recruit [97]
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Well at least you brought your focus back to the subject.
Mar 19, 2013, 12:21 AM
[ in reply to I'll try to be nicer if you'll try to be smarter. ] |
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Oliver Purnell was in coaching for 27 years and a head coach for 15 YEARS before coming to Clemson. Before coming to Clemson, he took subpar programs to the post season 8 times and was without a doubt a tested, highly respected, and well-known coach before we hired him.
Rick Barnes had been in coaching for 17 years and a head coach for 7 years before we hired him. He was a coach of the year and made the postseason in 5 of those 7 years. He won the Big East Championship and was widely considered a solid coach before coming to Clemson.
"Hire on the cheap"?...Nope. Not Pitino money, but not on the cheap either (still laughing at that).
"Roll (of) the dice"?...Nope, not any more than most every coach is.
"New"?...Nope. Lot of coaching experience.
"Largely unproven"?...Nope. Not true at all.
"Up-and-coming"... Yep, but then again that's largley how most schools hire coaches. Not everyone can go out and hire Rick Pitino whenever they want.
If Brownell is unable to get it done, who would be your choice? And let's try to be real about it.
All in all, it looks like you weren't so right after all. Mighty smug, but not right.
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Clemson Sports Icon [59572]
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Re: do you think the desire/belief is there to commit
Mar 18, 2013, 11:08 PM
[ in reply to do you think the desire/belief is there to commit ] |
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It never has been. And they aren't about to show any sort of interest now. They think that would make people think that they care, and they really don't....
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Orange Blooded [2554]
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What do we want to invest in?
Mar 18, 2013, 11:29 AM
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That choice is easy for me. Football. As bad as this sounds, and it probably reinforces your point, I'm so indifferent to BBall that I would not care if both the mens and womens programs were disbanded and the money used to support other sports that we're competative in.
We're throwing away good money on something that will never see a ROI. Turn Littlejohn into better parking or a mega atheltic training complex.
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