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Rival Killer [2902]
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Remember that time Purnell left Brownell a GREAT program!
Mar 27, 2019, 9:37 AM
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So obviously we had a good team in Brownell's first year. I don't think anyone is disputing that. Let's look at our roster in his second year!
Seniors: Andre Young, Tanner Smith, Brian Narcisse, and Catelin Baciu
- Andre Young could shoot, Tanner Smith was average, and Narcisse and Baciu had no business playing ACC basketball
Juniors: Milton Jennings and Devin Booker - Jennings was the worst McDonalds AA of all time. Booker was just average.
Sophomores: NONE! OP left during the middle of the night at a terrible time. Brownell brought over Cory Stanton from Wright State, but he wasn't good and transferred
Freshman: TJ Sapp, Rod Hall, KJ McDaniels, Bernard Sullivan, and Devin Coleman.
- Obviously KJ was a monster. TJ Sapp, Bernard Sullivan, and Devin Coleman all transferred and were not good where they went. Rod Hall was a 2* recruit and although i loved him as a player, he shouldn't have been playing in the ACC
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Re: Remember that time Purnell left Brownell a GREAT program!
Mar 27, 2019, 9:44 AM
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Let's look at the next year too!!!
Keep in mind, at this point we had the worst facilities in the ACC, spent the least amount of money on operations (still do), and had some of the worst basketball tradition in the ACC (still do)
Seniors: Devin Booker and Milton Jennings. Don't need to elaborate. They were both underwhelming
Juniors: NONE
Sophomores: TJ Sapp, Rod Hall, Devin Coleman, KJ McDaniels, Bernard Sullivan, and Demarcus Harrison (added as a transfer)
Freshman: Adonis Filer, Jordan Roper, Jaron Blossomgame (hurt his freshman year), Josh SMith, and Landry Noko.
- Adonis transferred, Roper was just average, Blossomgame was an absolute beast, Josh Smith shouldn't have played in the ACC, and Noko who was and didn't contribute until his senior year.
So there you have it folks. Wouldn't you say that in Clemson's program, we rely very heavily on upperclassmen? Well Brownell was left with BOoker and Jennings in his 3rd year. But tell me again how Brownell inherited a great program.
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Associate AD [1035]
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Re: Remember that time Purnell left Brownell a GREAT program!
Mar 27, 2019, 10:00 AM
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Yes he needs to sign a 20 year extension because he gets a 9 year pass.
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1st Rounder [627]
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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He didn't inherit a great program.
Mar 27, 2019, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to Re: Remember that time Purnell left Brownell a GREAT program! ] |
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That is obvious to anyone who looks past the "Purnell made the NCAA Tournament three years in a row" deal. Those three years say nothing about who was left on the team for Brownell, especially after Brownell's first year.
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Orange Blooded [2575]
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Remember when Coach B and his supporters said the loss
Mar 27, 2019, 9:54 AM
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of Rod Hall would be a plus for our basketball team? Then, the next year, we took a step back a the point guard position. I really liked Rod Hall and that really griped my ###.
I wish people wouldn't run our players down to build up our coach.
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Clemson Icon [27583]
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NO!
Mar 27, 2019, 9:58 AM
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But I well remember the time Purnell left!
He walked out on all his players,the university and all the fans without an explanation. How can you idolize this creep who was anything but a Clemson Man?
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Nobody idolizes Coach Purnell. We just miss the excitement
Mar 27, 2019, 10:09 AM
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of his teams and the trips to the NCAA Tournament so often in such a short time. He recruited high school players that we got to know and enjoy. The team had a personality and success. We got to the ACC Championship game and he left Brad Brownell with his second best team in 9 years.
I don't blame Coach Purnell and his wife for taking a big pay day and moving to the wonderful city of Chicago in his twilight years. Perfectly understandable. I just wish we would have gone out and hired a good coach that could build upon the success of Coach Purnell. But we didn't.
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Legend [16940]
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OP taking a pay day? Jeebus!
Mar 27, 2019, 10:18 AM
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Yes, we grasp you despise BB...yet you want to praise OP for bailing and worst of all, consider his brand of ball exciting? When did Clemson EVER win a game due to OP making adjustments? When? Anyone watching the games KNEW when the gig was up.
That said, Rod Hall busted his butt playing for Clemson and performing above his natural ability. Talk about getting the most from the least...Rod was the complete opposite of Jennings, mentally, and Booker, from a maximizing physical talent.
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Brad Brownell seems like a great guy. I don't despise him.
Mar 27, 2019, 10:21 AM
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That's childish and ignorant. That's your Alzheimers kicking in. Again.
I'm a Clemson grad. I just like Clemson Basketball more. I don't need 10 years to figure out what the situation is. After 9 years, we know what we have.
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Paw Master [16648]
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Re: Remember when Coach B and his supporters said the loss
Mar 27, 2019, 10:08 AM
[ in reply to Remember when Coach B and his supporters said the loss ] |
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I'm not trying to build up our coach. I'm trying prove that he didn't inherit a great program which is what a lot of people say on here. Reading is for suckers anyways bro.
Also, since when is being honest "running our players down"
I simply said that although I liked him as a player and person, he wasn't an ACC caliber PG. Do you disagree? if so, make a point. Sorry I hurt your feelings
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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You didn't hurt my feelings. I was just pointing out how
Mar 27, 2019, 10:13 AM
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Brownell supporters bend over backwards to spin down the success of Barnes and Purnell in an effort to build up Brad Brownell. You guys act like we didn't all live through it and experience it ourselves and we don't know the truth.
And yes, you are running our players down to accomplish that end.
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All-Time Great [95402]
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Bottom line, good Or bad, is that Clemson is much better FB School than BB!
Mar 27, 2019, 10:27 AM
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And will continue to be at the current pace & rate!
Saying..Brownell is a great guy & honorable man but just slightly above average coach, imho, with about the same overall level of players.
No shame there unless you must have more (wins, tournament invites, glory, championships, etc).
Nuff said..he has a contract, runs a clean program & his players have worthwhile scholarships and all are doing their dangest for Clemson!
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Isn't that apathy the problem?***
Mar 27, 2019, 10:32 AM
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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Where is the line?
Mar 27, 2019, 10:32 AM
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At what point did it become BB’s program? When was OP off the hook? Year 3, 4, 5? When?
Let’s establish that first
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Re: Where is the line?
Mar 27, 2019, 10:47 AM
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I’m not trying to put a time fence on this. All I’m saying is that part of everyone’s argument is that brownell was left with a solid team.
My point is that he didn’t inherit a good program. He inherited a dumpster fire (after year 1)In his 3rd year, he only had Milton Jennings a mind Devin booker S upperclassmen. That is on Purnell. Can we at least agree on that?
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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No- b/c then you are blaming OP for 2 years of BB
Mar 27, 2019, 10:50 AM
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recruiting and player development as well.
Brad flat out said this was not a rebuild.
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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Again, Brad said that at his introductory press conference
Mar 27, 2019, 11:48 AM
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before getting to see the basketball program from the inside. He has said several times since that there were some issues behind the scenes that he had no idea about, which took a great deal of time and effort to fix (as in a few years).
These were significant issues.
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Terry Don Phillips said it as well.
Mar 27, 2019, 11:59 AM
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He certainly knew what he was talking about.
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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Do you honestly think our athletic director
Mar 27, 2019, 12:20 PM
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would've opened up the press conference by saying, "We want to welcome Brad to our program. Although we have made the NCAA Tournament each of the past three seasons, our program is not in the great shape it appears, and in fact we have major issues we are dealing with?"
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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No. I don't think he would lie about that.
Mar 27, 2019, 1:13 PM
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I think would not made the statement if he didn't believe it was true. Did you think of that option?
You should stop with the strawman arguments and the false dichotomies to manufacture your excuses.
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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There are no straw man arguments or false dichotomies here.
Mar 27, 2019, 2:26 PM
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Keep oversimplifying our basketball situation at Clemson to us just not having the right coach.
This is like the woman who has all sorts of faults, but keeps saying "I just can't find a good guy." Until she take a hard look at herself, she will never realize that she's the problem.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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you refuse to acknowledge the fact that 3 of the previous 4
Mar 27, 2019, 2:34 PM
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coaches had MUCH MORE success than Brownell... with MUCH LESS support. Why is that? Your typical response is "they bailed on us", or, "they wouldn't make the NCAAT now", or "BB won as many ACC games", etc...
Facts are facts. Period. They had much more success than Brownell has had, with much less commitment.
Why?
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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Again, how are we measuring success?
Mar 27, 2019, 3:27 PM
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If NCAA Tournaments are your only criteria, then yes, they had more success (certainly not MUCH MORE though).
In addition to NCAAs, I also care about ACC performance, effort shown, how players represent Clemson, academic performance, graduation rates, lack of NCAA issues, etc. These factors are also what our athletic director evaluates, so I would encourage you to do the same.
Since you yourself said that "facts are facts," why aren't you able to acknowledge what Brad has done better than his predecessors? Constantly harping on one or two of your chosen metrics gets old, and shows your inability to be objective.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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not "much more"?... that is false, and it's not close
Mar 27, 2019, 11:39 PM
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So you want to tout wins by BB... wins that didn't get him to the NCAAT. wins that game against the bottom half of the ACC over his tenure... wins in an expanded league and expanded schedule
that's your criteria?
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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I'm sorry I don't recall when he said that.
Mar 27, 2019, 12:42 PM
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I'm looking for it but not finding anything so far.
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All-In [10738]
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Re: I'm sorry I don't recall when he said that.
Mar 27, 2019, 2:43 PM
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Did he say what the issues were? Or is that internal info?
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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Internal info.***
Mar 27, 2019, 3:27 PM
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Re: No- b/c then you are blaming OP for 2 years of BB
Mar 27, 2019, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to No- b/c then you are blaming OP for 2 years of BB ] |
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So answer me this...when is the last time we have had a freshman stud. Don’t you agree our program is based on player development and not recruiting immediate impact guys? Trevor booker? But he wasn’t dominant his freshman year.
When is the last time we have had a freshman or sophomore make an all acc team?
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Are you making an argument for how bad we will be next year?
Mar 27, 2019, 12:05 PM
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It's going to be ugly.
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All-In [11015]
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Orange Blooded [4607]
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Re: Where is the line?
Mar 27, 2019, 12:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: Where is the line? ] |
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So it’s OP’s fault BB couldn’t recruit past his first year here? Crean and his top 10 recruiting class will at UGA loves your excuse.
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Legend [16940]
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Use a program other than Dawgs,
Mar 27, 2019, 8:47 PM
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If you're going to trumpet a great recruiting class. That's Dawg history...and an empty trophy hall.
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Orange Blooded [4607]
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2011 BB signed 5 players
Mar 27, 2019, 12:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: Where is the line? ] |
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3 of which transferred. These were HIS guys that he brought in that left. I guess that’s on OP too.
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Re: Where is the line?
Mar 27, 2019, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to Where is the line? ] |
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I’m not trying to put a time fence on this. All I’m saying is that part of everyone’s argument is that brownell was left with a solid team.
My point is that he didn’t inherit a good program. He inherited a dumpster fire (after year 1)In his 3rd year, he only had Milton Jennings a mind Devin booker S upperclassmen. That is on Purnell. Can we at least agree on that?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Where is the line?
Mar 27, 2019, 10:54 AM
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^This
The line is when the coach takes over. Period.
Rule #1 of being a new coach... recruit the current players. Brad's best recruiting pitch was to keep the F/So that first year. That is a tough thing to do.
OP was declining from the 07/08 height and cashed out when his NBA savior graduated.
So do we give Dabo credit for the 09 season or do you credit Tommy Bowden?
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Purnell took over a dumpster fire from Larry Shyatt.
Mar 27, 2019, 11:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Where is the line? ] |
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He had us in the NIT starting in year 2 for 3 years before getting us into the NCAA Tournament for 4 straight years. Brad's first team was his second best and he SHOULD have been able to build upon that inherited success and recruit some decent players. But, he didn't. Why not? What changed so dramatically in such a short time that caused our recruiting to fall off so quickly and so dramatically for so many years?
Coach Brownell and Coach Phillips both stated when he was hired that Clemson was "not a rebuilding job." The program was NOT a dumpster fire as you are spinning it.
So the question becomes, at what point does it become the new coach's responsibility to recruit decent players to replace the graduating NCAA Tournament players that he inherited?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Purnell took over a dumpster fire from Larry Shyatt.
Mar 27, 2019, 11:18 AM
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Actually, that is easier to account for...
Anytime there is a new coach, there is rebuilding (staff, relationships, etc)... and then they were literally rebuilding LJ.
Next, the landscape drastically changed. During OP's last three years and into Brad's first 2 years, the ACC was a weak conference overall. Just look at the ACC/B10 challenge as an indicator. You also did not have Syracuse and Louisville join in 2014. Look at a lot of "traditional" ACC teams pre/post the Cuse/LVille/ND expansion. You even see Maryland declining in ACC play. Adding two/three elite (cheat to win at any cost programs), the conference becomes a lot more challenging. You have Miami collecting on Jim Larrañaga (crooked or not, a great coach... and I say that as a former George Mason employee).
The ironic thing is that both OP and even Barnes coached in eras when the ACC was weaker... but Brad has had a stronger conference overall. Yes, the ACC bottom is weaker in the Brad era but the top is stronger. The Barnes era had more core strength (and no pesky mid-majors) and OP had a very, very weak top and no strength in the center of the conference.
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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If it's so easy to explain, why did you struggle so to do it
Mar 27, 2019, 11:24 AM
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You said basically nothing to support your conclusion.
We all lived through it. We know.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: If it's so easy to explain, why did you struggle so to do it
Mar 27, 2019, 11:33 AM
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How did I struggle?
If you lived through it... ok, but were you actually paying attention?
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Most fans were paying much more attention then than
Mar 27, 2019, 11:37 AM
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they are now. The attendance figures prove that.
Even the excusemongers must admit that is a fact.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Most fans were paying much more attention then than
Mar 27, 2019, 11:47 AM
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2007-2008, 2008-2009... you might as well go to a basketball game because the football stunk... it isnt like spending $XXXX to go to Texas or Cali and then worry about trips to LJ. Heck there were some basketball games that didn't even have the Tiger.
Also, didn't we reduce the capacity of LJ and then gave all the good seats to people who only show up for 2-3 games a year? LJ is not even as good as it was...
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Excuses always sound best to the one who is giving them.
Mar 27, 2019, 12:03 PM
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So, an investment of $63 million has made our facilities worse? Is there no end to the BS?
You guys live in an alternate reality.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Excuses always sound best to the one who is giving them.
Mar 27, 2019, 12:08 PM
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Sure, when other schools are pay $130 million ten years ago (or 170m in todays dollars).
We are literally 8 years late and 50 million short to this party.
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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But our facilities are now awesome!
Mar 27, 2019, 12:24 PM
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And any coach worth a crap at recruiting should be able to recruit with these facilities!
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Ring of Honor [23295]
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Nobody wanted to relocate Littlejohn including the
Mar 27, 2019, 1:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Excuses always sound best to the one who is giving them. ] |
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basketball coaches. They wanted to be in the shadow of death valley in the middle of our campus(they even wanted a terrace facing death valley so that recruits and their families could enjoy the electricity and beauty of fall Saturdays at Clemson) It made the most sense on so many levels. Therefore, we didn't have to build an entirely new structure(like Virginia did), which would be the majority of the cost of construction We now have facilities in the upper half of the conference.
The apathy grows.
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Re: Purnell took over a dumpster fire from Larry Shyatt.
Mar 27, 2019, 11:53 AM
[ in reply to Purnell took over a dumpster fire from Larry Shyatt. ] |
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My goodness you are stupid. When have we ever recruited well?
Guess what? OP didn’t recruit well either. He recruited athletes that fit his system. He didn’t necessarily recruit basketball players. His system was kind of like GT football. It was gimmicky because OP knew he couldn’t out recruit anybody.
Also, I guess you’ve never heard of “coach speak” before? Every coach does it.
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Game Changer [1763]
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I wouldn't say it was a gimmick...
Mar 27, 2019, 12:38 PM
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it worked but put you in a grave disadvantage against super athletic teams that knew how to attach a press. His coaching in certain games should've adjusted but the overall product working for Clemson basketball.
Maybe the true mistake was from our AD by hiring Brownell...which was such a stark contrast to what we had.
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Paw Master [16648]
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The whiners have certainly established that Brad gets no
Mar 27, 2019, 2:53 PM
[ in reply to Where is the line? ] |
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credit for taking a team OP ran away from in the middle of the night to an NCAAT, I assume we start after that
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Clemson Icon [26391]
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a team that had been to the tournament for 3 straight years
Mar 27, 2019, 2:56 PM
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Brownell got the lowest seed of those 4 years
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Paw Master [16648]
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Brad won his game though, OP was upset by a double digit
Mar 27, 2019, 2:59 PM
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seed 3 years in a row, each worse than the last, so there's that too
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Associate AD [1092]
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He won the play in game, not the same as a first round game***
Mar 28, 2019, 8:10 AM
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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Game Changer [1763]
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And now for the rest of the story....
Mar 27, 2019, 12:30 PM
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Lets start with this....you cannot blame or credit Purnell for the Freshman on Brownells roster in his 2nd year. It doesn't work like football and its rare you fill up a bball recruiting class two years in advance. Those freshman on the 2011-2012 roster are 100% Brownell guys.
Also, Brownell made the decision to sign Stanton and thats 100% on him. Also, the lack of other recruits tells me Brownell ins't a great recruiter (we now 9-10 years of history to show us that as well). Also on the sophomores, when Purnell left he only had 2 scholarships available for the 2010 recruiting class...possibly why we only signed Stanton.
Upon Brownells arrival, we lost 2 scholarship guys and that eliminated depth in the junior class. on a side note, Jennings never performed like a McDonalds AA, but gave us solid production and was a good D-1 player to have on the roster. Devin Booker wasn't his brother but still very productive and stat wise was Elijah Thomas. You cant run these guys down like Purnell left BB two mid-major kids. Those two could contribute and play.
On the seniors, Narcisse played hard but you are right....Baciu was not good. Tanner Smith and Young were major ACC quality guys who could contribute and play. We had a solid group of juniors and seniors that you could count on...after that not much. But lets keep in mind Brownell is responsible for that depth and young "talent" ...not Purnell.
Why do you think Purnell deserves the blame for Brownell's 2nd year record??
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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Brownell didn't have time to recruit for his first season
Mar 27, 2019, 12:46 PM
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so he only had one of his own recruiting classes on campus for his second year. Unless you expected him to recruit top flight freshmen who could make significant contributions immediately, it's pretty obvious that year 2 was going to rely on Purnell's recruits almost exclusively.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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Re: Brownell didn't have time to recruit for his first season ***
Mar 27, 2019, 12:51 PM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Brownell didn't have time to recruit for his first season ***
Mar 27, 2019, 1:04 PM
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Well, you have to recruit the current players to stay.
Otherwise, I guess we have to give OP the rub for not recruiting day one into the tourney
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Game Changer [1763]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Its tough to recruit so late in the game...
Mar 27, 2019, 2:19 PM
[ in reply to Brownell didn't have time to recruit for his first season ] |
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but good recruiters and coaches still get guys on short notice. Happens every year. Like I said, we had 2 spots open, he signed one of his guys that he liked but didn't nab another. Part of that tells me he didn't have much in the pipeline from his days at Wright State...a lot of coaches have those contacts with kids and AAU coaches, etc. but cant pull them at mid-major schools.
In fairness to Brownell though, Clemson wont let JUCO kids in and the transfer marketplace in 2010 was much different than what we see today. A new coach at most schools today could sign a kid or two, get a JUCO and/or grad transfer.
Still dont understand how its Purnells fault though? He didnt have any recruits signed but only had two spots and Brownell filled one of them, ran two other kids and then fully recruited his own kids for year 2. Lets not retroactively crucify Purnell bc those kids didn't pan out and then use it as an argument to justify keeping Brownell.
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Rival Killer [2902]
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Re: And now for the rest of the story....
Mar 27, 2019, 1:39 PM
[ in reply to And now for the rest of the story.... ] |
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If you would read anything that I posted, you would know why I think it is OP to blame for years 2 and 3 from Brownell....
I'll try and break it down simply for you as you obviously are confused
We rely on upper classmen each year to carry the team. This is because Clemson can not now and has never been able to recruit elite talent to compete in the ACC. We rely on player development and by the time players are Junior and Seniors, they really start to play up to ACC standards....
Brownell's 2nd year his upperclassmen were Andre Young, Tanner Smith, Bryan Narcisse, and Catelin Baciu, Devin Booker, and Milton Jennings. I think we can all agree that there is not much talent there.
Brownell's 3rd year his upperclassmen were only Devin Booker and Milton Jennings. That is horrific
Brownell's 4th year, we DIDN'T HAVE ANY SENIORS.
If you disagree with this, then post a counter argument.
- How many freshman in the last 20 years have come in and made an instant impact for Clemson? Just answer this question.Please
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Ring of Honor [23295]
TigerPulse: 99%
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If we don't get 3 freshmen to come in next year and light it
Mar 27, 2019, 1:50 PM
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up, we are going to struggle mightily.
I am guessing you don't see that happening.
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Game Changer [1763]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I think we jsut view things differneelty
Mar 27, 2019, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: And now for the rest of the story.... ] |
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and thats fine. I read your entire post and thats why I responded in the manner I did. You changed (or clarified) your argument in your 2nd post.
Its a convenient argument to trash our juniors and seniors that year. And thats leaving out that Brownell coached Jennings and Booker nearly their entire Clemson career...so if they stunk thats mostly on Brownell. Because as the staunch Brownell supporters will tell us, he's a helluva coach and developer of talent.
Look, Clemson ain't an easy coaching job and we can all agree. But, a truly good coach can win here and has before. Brownell has had every chance to succeed and overcome any challenges that Purcell is perceived to have hampered BB with. He still cannot recruit and neither can his assistants. We rely on transfers to complete our roster and thats who the contributors are in our program..not alot of organic success.
Purnell may have not left the cupboard full for Year 3 of Brad Brownell's tenure but that is utter and complete bullcrap to throw that on BB and excuse our record.
To your last question...I'd have to go back and research this and cant right now but I'd say just 1 or 2 at best. However, that still isn't Purnell's fault. Am I missing how it is? Because like I said...we had 2 scholarships available in 2010 after the season...Brownell signed one of his guys and then we never filled the other spot. Both Hill and Johnson were on the team when Brownell took over and neither left (if I recall) until after the season started.
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Tiger Titan [46071]
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Brad was hired in April 2010.
Mar 27, 2019, 3:30 PM
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He didn't have time to recruit, other than trying to persuade Purnell's ONE recruit for 2010 to keep his commitment.
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Game Changer [1763]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Maybe one day they will do a 30 for 30 on Brad
Mar 28, 2019, 11:40 AM
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on how he was able to survive his first 3 years at Clemson...such an impossible task considering the turmoil and toxic environment Purnell left behind.
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Oculus Spirit [41453]
TigerPulse: 100%
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He just needs some to get his own players in the
Mar 27, 2019, 2:32 PM
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System. He might have to go transfer rounte or juco for a couple of years...just needs some more time.
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