|
Replies: 113
| visibility 1270
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
The Basics
7
7
Apr 10, 2023, 11:36 AM
|
|
We're living in a day where this is controversial, but you can pull any statistic you want to, and it will objectively show that life expectancy, quality of life, success in education, mental health, are all gonna be at their optimal levels when this formula is followed:
1. Do not smoke, drink alcohol, or do drugs.
2. Don't have sex before marriage.
3. Man and woman get married, then have children.
4. Father and mother stay married.
5. Father and mother actively participate in child's life.
I don't even have to bring the Bible/religion into it. You don't need that to demonstrate that the above formula is the best path to success in life.
And the best part is...they're all choices. We can control every single one of them.
|
|
|
|
 |
TigerNet HOFer [127737]
TigerPulse: 100%
66
Posts: 57640
Joined: 2009
|
Drinking in moderation is Ok
1
Apr 10, 2023, 11:39 AM
|
|
😉
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
Modern medical research indicates that
1
Apr 10, 2023, 11:40 AM
|
|
the optimum healthy level of alcohol consumption is zero.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
Incorrect. You're ignoring the well-documented
2
Apr 10, 2023, 11:49 AM
|
|
cardio-protective properties of red wine in moderation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
|
|
|
|
|
Associate AD [831]
TigerPulse: 94%
23
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
Because my study focused on red wine
Apr 10, 2023, 6:24 PM
|
|
And yours focused on all varieties of alcohol? Of course two shooters of everclear doesn’t help your heart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Associate AD [831]
TigerPulse: 94%
23
|
Re: Because my study focused on red wine
Apr 11, 2023, 10:03 AM
|
|
Resveratrol is good for you. Nothing else about drinking red wine is. Again, I say that as a drinker. But I'm not trying to kid myself. That 2009 60 Minutes segment was the best marketing job that the wine industry ever got! You can always take a resveratrol supplement to avoid the alcohol (but what fun is that)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [38514]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 47161
Joined: 2002
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: Modern medical research indicates that
Apr 10, 2023, 12:37 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
I don't question the legitimacy of what you are posting
Apr 11, 2023, 12:41 PM
|
|
I just don't really think it counters my point. If only for the sake of argument, let's say drinking "moderately" is neutral or even beneficial to health. What's moderate? How do you know? How do you make sure you don't cross whatever line that? Will your teenage children understand moderation? There are risks, beyond just a simple question of heart health. And I think that's the point of the study I posted, that any marginal gains to the heart, for example, are negated by the overall risks posed.
So I stand by the statement that to give yourself and your children the best chance possible, the best choice to make is to not drink at all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
It's pretty quantifiable
Apr 11, 2023, 12:49 PM
|
|
I recall most studies defining 1 glass of red wine per day as health-beneficial, so that's "moderation".
I feel like you're saying that avoiding booze altogether will prevent those with addictive personalities from going down that path, and there's some common sense in that. What's not known though in that scenario is a) What's their propensity to engage in other addictive behaviors (gambling, overeating, etc) not accounted for in your secrets to life formula.
Additionally, what's not known is the hypothetical outcome of every legal-age adult in the country drinking one glass of red a day. If you could isolate that variable, would life expectancies go up from health benefits of it or down from those who would abuse it being introduced to the substance? Dunno, interesting to ponder.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
Answer me something honestly.
Apr 11, 2023, 1:21 PM
|
|
I can't answer this question, because I don't know enough people for it to be meaningful.
Do you know anyone who drinks one glass of wine per day, max? Never gets drunk, or even a little tipsy or flushed, ever? At least that you can observe in social situations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
Yes, I feel like your position of inexperience is leading
Apr 11, 2023, 1:30 PM
|
|
you to ascribe more evil to booze than is really there. I know multiple people who have a glass of wine with a meal and that's it. That's actually the norm in many parts of the world.
Just reading your take on the topic, it seems like you're coming from a "scared straight" school assembly mindset (no insult, I sat through them too), where one glass invariably leads to two, and before you know it you're downing two bottles a night whether you like it or not.
Maybe that's how it goes for addicts, and as sad and unfortunate as that is, that's not the majority of the population.
Bourbon is my drink of choice. To be clear, I'm not claiming health benefits from it, just discussing the ability to moderate. More nights than not, I have none. Once a week or so, I'll have one drink. I enjoy it. Occasionally I may pour another but that's rare. Once a quarter or so, I might have another one or two in a social situation and get a bit of a buzz---not healthy but it's a tradeoff I'm ok with and I'm not having those extra drinks because I drank one drink once a week.
At the same time, I can go a year without drinking a drop and be none the worse off from it....there's no compulsion there. I'm not special, and while I'm not trivializing the plights of those with more addictive personalities, I think more are like me than not when it comes to alcohol consumption.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
Thanks for the honest answer***
1
Apr 11, 2023, 1:42 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
To be clear, I'm not trying to deal in absolutes
Apr 11, 2023, 1:46 PM
[ in reply to Yes, I feel like your position of inexperience is leading ] |
|
or guarantees. I would not argue that it is "inevitable" that "moderate" drinking will result in non-"moderate" drinking. But I'm sure you wouldn't argue the converse, that there is no chance that it will lead to that. Everyone is somewhere on that spectrum.
If a habit of drinking "moderately" makes you 50% more likely to kill someone driving drunk than a habit of never drinking at all, is that acceptable risk? What about 10% more likely? 1% more likely? 0.01% more likely? 0.0001% more likely? Is that an acceptable risk?
Big picture, I am going to argue that 100% sure I won't do it is better than 99.9999% sure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
I think you are finding correlation and seeing causation.
1
Apr 11, 2023, 1:50 PM
|
|
The way I just described that I drink, I'm not out of control, ergo a decision to drive in an inebriated state comes from my own poor choices, not from the drinking. I'm able to recognize when I've had too much, I understand the ramifications, and I make the choice to not drive.
Look at it this way. Cell phone usage in cars has been shown to be as dangerous as drinking and driving. I bet the percentage of phone owners who use their phones in their car is higher than the percent of people who drink and then choose to drive. If the cell phones weren't present in the car, the cell phone usage would 100% not happen. Why not put "don't own a cell phone" on your life success list?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
I'm sure you're right.
1
Apr 12, 2023, 12:05 PM
|
|
It's all about risk/reward. Same reason we don't live like hermits. We have to do somethings. The benefit to having a cell phone in my possession outweighs the risk. The risk goes up exponentially based on further choices (whether I look at it while driving, obviously). So it's all very similar to drinking and driving, definitely.
It's just...to me...the benefit, any benefit of drinking alcohol. I don't see it. I certainly don't see it enough to outweigh the risks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46471]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 41891
Joined: 1998
|
Even I have to agree with Ignorey McIgnorison here
4
Apr 11, 2023, 9:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: Modern medical research indicates that ] |
|
There are many benefits to alcohol when done correctly.
That being said, I don't like to do it correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [48540]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 45068
Joined: 2002
|
that's some confirmation bias there BravoCoot
2
Apr 10, 2023, 1:13 PM
[ in reply to Modern medical research indicates that ] |
|
There are numerous peer reviewed studies going both ways on alcohol.
Also, I see many of my teetotaler Baptist friends are morbidly obese due to diet alone. Their diet alone will negatively impact their health more than alcohol consumption in moderation ever will.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: that's some confirmation bias there BravoCoot
Apr 11, 2023, 9:11 AM
|
|
That’s a generalization that doesn’t hold up. Baptists are just representative of the general population and the general population has poor health habits. Im Baptist and absolutely in better physical condition than most 30 year olds. So, are some of my Baptist friends. Others are in deplorable condition just like the population.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [10305]
TigerPulse: 97%
45
Posts: 12875
Joined: 2021
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [63003]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 37940
Joined: 1998
|
Prod is correct. But I still like a drank err now & then.
Apr 11, 2023, 1:41 PM
[ in reply to Modern medical research indicates that ] |
|
To be more precise, studies have found no protective properties of alcohol use and even those who had one drink a day were found to have increased risk of health problems. This is a British study. In the US the longitudinal study of Boston men found alcohol use was correlated with unhappiness and a variety of poor health outcomes.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/04/over-nearly-80-years-harvard-study-has-been-showing-how-to-live-a-healthy-and-happy-life/
Science says don't drink.
I say I enjoy a drink once in a while and don't worry about it when I do.
It is also true that alcohol use is found in some of the "blue zones" associated with longevity, but exercise, healthy diets, and probably most importantly - strong social support - are also found in those blue zones. And in some blue zones, such as in California where the 7th Day Adventists live, there is no widespread alcohol use in the blue zone community.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_zone
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
And studies HAVE found protective properties.
1
Apr 11, 2023, 1:57 PM
|
|
"Various studies have shown that moderate amounts of all types of alcohol benefit the heart, not just alcohol found in red wine. It's thought that alcohol:
Raises HDL cholesterol (the "good" cholesterol)
Reduces the formation of blood clots
Helps prevent artery damage caused by high levels of LDL cholesterol (the "bad" cholesterol)
May improve the function of the layer of cells that line the blood vessels"
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heart-disease/in-depth/red-wine/art-20048281
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
That's beside that fact that starting from the first
1
Apr 10, 2023, 12:21 PM
[ in reply to Drinking in moderation is Ok ] |
|
drink, you are less likely to make a choice for "moderation", and increasingly less likely with every drink thereafter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
That's not really true.***
Apr 10, 2023, 4:27 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Associate AD [831]
TigerPulse: 94%
23
|
Re: That's not really true.***
Apr 10, 2023, 6:20 PM
|
|
I'm a drinker and I have worked in the business. But I'm not trying to (at this point) kid myself into believing this is good for my health. This is being debunked as I type. I posted A link up above. You posted a five-year-old link.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TigerNet Immortal [168498]
TigerPulse: 100%
69
Posts: 70093
Joined: 2013
|
I, quite specifically, cited red wine
2
Apr 10, 2023, 6:26 PM
|
|
You listed an amalgamation examination of all booze studies. Mine, 5 years old or not, is far more relevant to my point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [10999]
TigerPulse: 100%
45
Posts: 10924
Joined: 2013
|
other than being a toxic chemical
2
Apr 10, 2023, 12:31 PM
|
|
alcohol is ok lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [41698]
TigerPulse: 100%
57
Posts: 43378
Joined: 1998
|
what is wrong with sex before marriage?***
Apr 10, 2023, 12:33 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
That leads to having children without a
Apr 10, 2023, 12:36 PM
|
|
present father and mother, is the non-religious, non-moral, objective answer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Icon [26664]
TigerPulse: 100%
54
Posts: 46334
Joined: 2010
|
That's why truck stops have 'slot machines'...***
1
Apr 10, 2023, 12:41 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: The Basics
2
Apr 10, 2023, 1:06 PM
|
|
Read something similar about how to almost guarantee at least moderate success.
1) Finish high school
2) Get a job and keep it
3) Have no children until after marriage
You do those 3 things in America and you should be fine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Beast [6307]
TigerPulse: 92%
40
Posts: 12904
Joined: 2008
|
Hasn't it been determined that those
Apr 10, 2023, 5:03 PM
|
|
things are white supremacy related?
So non-whites cannot do those things (by their choice).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: Hasn't it been determined that those
1
Apr 10, 2023, 5:50 PM
|
|
I would imagine someone or some group has called those things racist, yes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46471]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 41891
Joined: 1998
|
Re: The Basics
Apr 11, 2023, 12:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Basics ] |
|
You do those 3 things in America and you should be fine.
Just that simple, huh?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2058]
TigerPulse: 97%
31
|
Re: The Basics
Apr 11, 2023, 7:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Basics ] |
|
Unfortunately, it is not as simple as just “choosing” to do those things. Your environment has a huge effect on your “choices”.
You can claim personal responsibility all you want but if you grow up with crack-head parents you are almost always going to end up worse off than if you were in a better situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Beast [6579]
TigerPulse: 100%
40
|
Re: The Basics
Apr 10, 2023, 1:07 PM
|
|
There are people all around the world who do those things and work back breaking jobs just to provide the bare necessities for their families. Puts Americans who think they should be able to go through life drunk/high/etc with zero work ethic and think they should make a great living in perspective
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [51586]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 28469
Joined: 2002
|
the last 3 are not necessarily choices. Because there's more
Apr 10, 2023, 1:56 PM
|
|
than you involved. You have to find someone willing to marry you, stay married to you, and absent that, you may not be able to have an active role in your child's life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
Sure, sometimes it's two people both making a choice.***
Apr 10, 2023, 3:08 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Clemson Legend [103367]
TigerPulse: 100%
64
Posts: 67893
Joined: 2002
|
Did you know.......
Apr 10, 2023, 3:51 PM
|
|
More single women own homes than single men, in the United States, today.
While I agree your scenario is preferable, in Ward Cleaver's day, today we do not live in preferable circumstances. That stat above should speak for itself. As such, if you have any complaints, go find a feminist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clemson Conqueror [11454]
TigerPulse: 100%
46
|
Re: Did you know.......
Apr 10, 2023, 4:27 PM
|
|
By "single woman" do you mean "divorced women"?
Asking for a friend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
They prob took them from men in the divorce
Apr 12, 2023, 12:40 PM
[ in reply to Did you know....... ] |
|
Divorce, for women at least, is a pretty good career.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [35571]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 34425
Joined: 1999
|
Re: The Basics
1
Apr 10, 2023, 4:59 PM
|
|
I tend to agree with you, especially on the virtue of avoiding toxic substances like nicotine and alcohol.
However, I'd recharacterize your overall data. It's not that (to quote you) "life expectancy, quality of life, success in education, mental health, are all gonna be at their optimal levels when this formula is followed." Rather, it has been found (and I'm assuming your data is correct) that those 5 factors, on average, are beneficial to quality of life in the various ways you mentioned.
The key part is "on average." So let's talk about the "stay married" part. In my case, my wife and I were both married previously, and my wife has a daughter from her prior marriage. That daughter has been like a daughter to me for 10 years, and she still has a good relationship with her biological father and stepmother.
She feels blessed to have four parents who love her rather than the usual two. She went to a prestigious university and wants to be a lawyer, so her success in education etc. are all looking good.
I don't think my family failed to reach "optimal levels" even though we violated the two-parent rule. I think your point makes sense in terms of averages, but one's mileage may vary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
There's never a guarantee...
1
Apr 11, 2023, 7:22 AM
|
|
I'm sure there are many highly successful and wonderful people who were orphans and overcame drug addiction.
I'm also sure there were people raised in solid 2-parent households who became serial killers.
I'm just saying...you want to give yourself and your children their best shot? Do these things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [35571]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 34425
Joined: 1999
|
Re: There's never a guarantee...
Apr 11, 2023, 7:39 AM
|
|
I think you're probably right about the averages.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Beast [6307]
TigerPulse: 92%
40
Posts: 12904
Joined: 2008
|
Re: The Basics
Apr 10, 2023, 5:09 PM
|
|
...yeah but if you do those five things what kind of following do you have on social media?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
For #2, do you agree that sex is a biological need?
Apr 10, 2023, 5:46 PM
|
|
do you believe that marriage is more than just so you can have sex/procreate?
Do you believe that ############ is a sin or immoral/unhealthy?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
Stupid censorship...
Apr 10, 2023, 5:54 PM
|
|
the censored word is "mastur bation"
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
Associate AD [831]
TigerPulse: 94%
23
|
Re: I'm saying one of the best ways to
Apr 11, 2023, 10:07 AM
|
|
reduce the number of children with below average quality of life is for people to not have sex before they are married.
Easy access to birth control helps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
Not as much as not doing it helps.***
Apr 11, 2023, 11:01 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
So, your advice is to forgo a biological need?
Apr 11, 2023, 6:43 PM
|
|
You wouldn't say a person should forgo eating simply because there is a negative consequence that can happen with eating, right?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: So, your advice is to forgo a biological need?
Apr 11, 2023, 6:46 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
Is that the only negative consequence considered?***
Apr 11, 2023, 7:14 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: Is that the only negative consequence considered?***
Apr 11, 2023, 7:16 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
Ah, I see where the confusion is on this....
Apr 11, 2023, 7:37 PM
|
|
sex for reproduction is a biological need same as food/water/oxygen in that the species can't exist without it (according to maslow). Intimacy is also a need, according to Maslow, in order for a human to be healthy and happy which is where I was positioning the argument with Prod. I apologize for not being clearer, and I probably should have used a different word so as not to create confusion.
Intimacy/sex is very much a need for a person and society to be healthy/happy/successful which is what Prod was arguing against (at least until or with the requirement of marriage). That was where I was positioning my argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
I have been very intentional not going to
Apr 12, 2023, 12:16 PM
|
|
Bible. But I will say the Bible addresses this very well. Paul very directly teaches on the subject of the "need" for sex. Some find sufficient joy (most people use the word "happiness") without it. Some people have a greater need for it, and Paul tells them they should marry and do it to their heart's desire (not trying to be crass, but that is pretty much the message).
When you start talking about subjective things like how "happy" people are in their lives, I'm afraid that necessarily gets into Biblical instruction, for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [35571]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 34425
Joined: 1999
|
Re: I have been very intentional not going to
Apr 12, 2023, 1:30 PM
|
|
Paul ruined Christianity (and yet saved it).
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
Usually as part of an institution like religion...
Apr 12, 2023, 4:45 PM
|
|
Which has its own consequences as we've seen...
But as you surely must agree just as you believe there have been many who have remained virgins their entire lives (and presumably also been healthy/successful as your argument would include), there have been equally (or likely, more) who have had sex out of wedlock and been just as healthy/successful.
I believe you are construing broken family statistics with sex out of wedlock which is not the same. I've seen very little evidence to suggest that sex out of wedlock leads to negative consequences for society but I have seen evidence suggesting forgoing intimacy (which isn't necessarily meaning sex but often does) has negative consequences for an individual and society.
I agree that families remaining together is a positive for society, but premarital sex should not be lumped in with that considering 95% of people have had premarital sex (by the age of 44).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: Usually as part of an institution like religion...
Apr 12, 2023, 5:23 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
No one is arguing against families remaining together...
Apr 12, 2023, 5:49 PM
|
|
but Prod is misconstruing that with something that 95% of the population has done by the time they are 44 as an aspect that lowers the chances of "life expectancy, quality of life, success in education, mental health" being at their "optimal levels."
I mean, that's pretty hard to fathom seeing any connective tissue (other than seeing it as a veiled biblical argument) when ~95% of society falls into that category.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: No one is arguing against families remaining together...
Apr 12, 2023, 6:14 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
Prod's argument isn't about death, but about fulfillment
Apr 12, 2023, 6:28 PM
|
|
It's about 75% of people have had premarital sex by the time they are 20, 95% by the time they are 44 (at least in 2003).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/ Trends in Premarital Sex in the United States, 1954–2003 Policy and programmatic efforts promoting sexual abstinence until marriage have increased, but it is unclear whether establishing such behavior as normative is a realistic public health goal. This study examined the proportion of individuals in various ...
That's 20 years ago, but no reason to think the numbers are that different today (and as you point out it very well could be higher today).
If accurate, it likely means there's not even a correlation to ascribe to premarital sex and life fulfillment, let alone causation. And if there is, one just has to look at the "incel" community to see it may be the opposite of what Prod argues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: Prod's argument isn't about death, but about fulfillment
Apr 12, 2023, 6:37 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree.***
Apr 12, 2023, 6:46 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree.***
Apr 12, 2023, 7:03 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
I did answer it.
Apr 12, 2023, 7:19 PM
|
|
My own experience informs some of my beliefs, sure, same as you, same as Prod. But, in this case, I think research and statistics do the majority of speaking.
Have your opinions in this thread only been informed by your life experiences?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: I did answer it.
Apr 12, 2023, 7:55 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
I'll leave the biblical arguments for different thread...
Apr 12, 2023, 8:13 PM
|
|
How do any of us know an individual's sense of life fulfillment? We don't, which is why Prod and all of us are talking in generalities about society. Heck, I'm not even arguing one way or the other other than to say that I think considering ~95% of society has had premarital sex by the time they are in their 40s makes it a very difficult argument to say ~95% of the society's life is unfulfilled (let alone regret it).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: I'll leave the biblical arguments for different thread...
Apr 12, 2023, 8:17 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [18417]
TigerPulse: 100%
52
Posts: 30578
Joined: 2006
|
I know violent crime is actually down from the 1990s...
Apr 12, 2023, 8:38 PM
|
|
But with the rise in mass shootings and the rise in mental health issues (especially since the pandemic), wealth inequality, and rising political polarization I agree with the frustration. Specifically, talking about mental health, I am firmly in the camp of the rise of social media directly corresponds with the rise in mental health issues.
But that's all a larger topic for another day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [97]
TigerPulse: 92%
10
|
Re: I know violent crime is actually down from the 1990s...
Apr 12, 2023, 9:34 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [10305]
TigerPulse: 97%
45
Posts: 12875
Joined: 2021
|
Re: I know violent crime is actually down from the 1990s...
Apr 13, 2023, 11:42 PM
[ in reply to I know violent crime is actually down from the 1990s... ] |
|
Violent crime isn’t the same as murder.
Also, with selective prosecutions and downgrading of felonies to misdemeanors, along with how prosecutors define ‘violent’ in more modern times, then the ‘decrease in violent crime’ statistics can be readily manipulated so that big city politicians and governors of their particular state can brag about improved crime rates.
(*). Murder and manslaughter statistics, on the other hand, represent crimes which (as of the current moment) can’t be manipulated as easily.
(?). Statistics about murder and manslaughter trends would more emphatically make your point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [65276]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 23950
Joined: 2017
|
My sister was conceived out of wedlock
Apr 11, 2023, 2:50 PM
[ in reply to I'm saying one of the best ways to ] |
|
My parents made it almost 50 years together. My mom was a vegan and never drank. She died at 71 of brain cancer.
The only absolute it the next second in life. Nothing else. We all don’t know our fate, just enjoy life.
My 3
1) Exercise
2) Exercise Outside More
3) Fruits in mass consumption
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46471]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 41891
Joined: 1998
|
Re: The Basics
Apr 11, 2023, 9:44 AM
|
|
There are a laundry list of successful intelligent people who went against 1-4. Our history is filled with great leaders who were chain-smoking alcoholics. Some of them came from broken homes. I'm afraid this is all conjecture and not indicative of how to have a successful life.
But as for #5, yes, I can't see any downside to that one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
You're talking anecdotal examples.
Apr 11, 2023, 11:00 AM
|
|
I'm talking data and overall chance of success. I don't give the data, because I didn't do a bunch of googling. I suppose I'm anecdotally saying I've seen the data before, ha.
Check crime rates for people who grew up with a married father and mother, as opposed to not.
First thing that popped up when I googled it...I didn't vet it. But it's aligned with what I've seen before. Feel free to counter if the data is there.
"Effects of Fatherlessness – Teenage Statistics
63% of all youth suicides,
70% of all teen pregnancies,
71% of all adolescent chemical/substance abusers,
80% of all prison inmates, and
90% of all homeless and runaway children, came from single mother homes."
https://www.fixfamilycourts.com/single-mother-home-statistics/ Fatherless Single Mother Home Statistics Are family law courts causing all the school shootings? School shootings have been increasing and there is a strong probability that this is the product of single parent homes that are fatherless, the result of a failed social experiment by the family courts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46471]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 41891
Joined: 1998
|
But your post was insensitve...
2
Apr 11, 2023, 7:02 AM
|
|
Although I know you didn't intend for it to be.
1. Some people have genetic challenges when battling addiction and susceptibility to those addictions.
2. Without even getting into the whole sexual assault part of this, this assumes young people everywhere get the necessary education and upbringing to make those decisions.
3. Some people have trouble finding someone to marry, and many couples can't have children even though they want to.
4. You say that as if it's so easy for married couples. What if they realize they made a mistake? What if one is abusive? What if one cheats? Some marriages weren't meant to last... like, say, people who rush into it in their early 20s because of Rule #2.
Sorry, Prod, it's very easy for you to throw these "rules" out and say that's the key to happiness, but that's anecdotal for you in yourself. And no, not everyone has control over those factors. They're not all choices for everyone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
OK,
Apr 11, 2023, 12:29 PM
|
|
Please note I did not use the word "happy" at all. The better term is "success", but I'm talking mainly objective measures like how long you live, etc. The reason I'm doing that is because I wanted to point out that it's not my opinion, but provable fact.
I said they were all choices. And I stand by that. Now, I suppose my post did brush over the fact that those choices are more difficult for some than others. That's fair. But I was really trying to be dispassionate on purpose. I wanted to make it clear I was not trying to moralize. I could definitely moralize on this topic if I wanted to, but I'm choosing not to, throughout all my replies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
So you gotta have kids, huh?
1
Apr 12, 2023, 12:39 PM
|
|
Yeah thats not going to make you successful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: So you gotta have kids, huh?
Apr 12, 2023, 12:42 PM
|
|
I know you’re kidding. You didn’t get that from his post.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
Read #3.***
Apr 12, 2023, 12:44 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
or getting married at all***
Apr 12, 2023, 12:45 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
There's very little in marraige that helps with being
1
Apr 12, 2023, 12:46 PM
|
|
"succesful", unless her family owns a business.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: Read #3.***
Apr 12, 2023, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to Read #3.*** ] |
|
It mess as is IF you have children do so only after getting married. In other words it’s tougher on a single parent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
The whole getting married\having children thing
Apr 12, 2023, 1:05 PM
|
|
doesn't help at all with "being successful".
"being lucky" or "being born with wealthy relatives" would come way before anything else.
If we want to discuss all the things that DON'T assist in being successful, there's not enough internet bandwidth to do so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: The whole getting married\having children thing
Apr 12, 2023, 1:10 PM
|
|
Again , it implies IF you get married and IF you have children do so in an order that increases your chances of success. A better way of stating it is don’t do things that will make life harder.
Also, being wealthy because your parents were rich does not necessarily when you are a success. It just means you were born lucky. The formula he gives applies to people like me who were born to poor parents. I’ve been very successful. But there are some things I could have done out of order that would have decreased my chances.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: The whole getting married\having children thing
Apr 12, 2023, 1:10 PM
[ in reply to The whole getting married\having children thing ] |
|
Again , it implies IF you get married and IF you have children do so in an order that increases your chances of success. A better way of stating it is don’t do things that will make life harder.
Also, being wealthy because your parents were rich does not necessarily when you are a success. It just means you were born lucky. The formula he gives applies to people like me who were born to poor parents. I’ve been very successful. But there are some things I could have done out of order that would have decreased my chances.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: The whole getting married\having children thing
Apr 12, 2023, 1:11 PM
[ in reply to The whole getting married\having children thing ] |
|
Again , it implies IF you get married and IF you have children do so in an order that increases your chances of success. A better way of stating it is don’t do things that will make life harder.
Also, being wealthy because your parents were rich does not necessarily when you are a success. It just means you were born lucky. The formula he gives applies to people like me who were born to poor parents. I’ve been very successful. But there are some things I could have done out of order that would have decreased my chances.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: The whole getting married\having children thing
Apr 12, 2023, 1:12 PM
|
|
Dang I apologize about the repetitive post. Looked like it didn’t post.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
He doesn't really state that.
Apr 12, 2023, 1:18 PM
|
|
I guess can put all the different qualifiers you want in there to attempt to make your point.
You've got a lot better chance at "being successful" (since that was Prod's written goal here) if you already come from money, and there's not much changing my mind about that. And being lucky, or being in the right place in the right time, can shave decades of hard work. And having money will often lead to "being lucky".
I'm saying that NOT having either, or both, will necessarily preclude one from NOT being successful, but those two circumstances certainly help more than anything else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: He doesn't really state that.
Apr 12, 2023, 1:23 PM
|
|
I understand what you’re saying. I do have my own idea of success however. If a kid is born to wealthy parents , goes on to live a rich life full of material things, etc, but doesn’t accomplish much as an individual I do not consider him successful. If a kid is born into poverty but goes on to lead a productive middle class life , I consider that very successful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
Because that's what you did?
Apr 12, 2023, 1:31 PM
|
|
There are a lot of different meanings to being "successful".
I'd think doing exactly what you want to do, when you want to do it would be considered "successful".
How anyone gets to that point is pretty irrelevant IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Game Day Hero [4228]
TigerPulse: 100%
36
|
Re: Because that's what you did?
Apr 12, 2023, 1:38 PM
|
|
I agree that doing what you want is a form of success. It’s not all about money and “stuff”. Some of the most broke people I know have lots of “stuff” and a presentation of success. I’m fact, I think a lot of people live that way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
What I stated has nothing to do with "stuff"
Apr 12, 2023, 3:28 PM
|
|
I mean, unless that's what someone wants to do, when they want to do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
In other words, one has a greater chance at success
Apr 12, 2023, 2:21 PM
|
|
If their parents this formula.
I thought it was implied, but I suppose I didn't state that explicitly. I just said these elements lead to successful people, which is the point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Immortal [64885]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 22724
Joined: 2004
|
BUT
1
Apr 12, 2023, 12:59 PM
|
|
Without #1, SarahAdidas and I never would have done #3 or #4. I consider it a net positive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
I always felt like I have a pretty good quality of life.
1
Apr 12, 2023, 1:12 PM
|
|
Today I found out I didn't.
Thanks, Prod.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
Strawman. I talk about overall averages, not
Apr 12, 2023, 2:25 PM
|
|
guarantees, absolutes, or no exceptions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46471]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 41891
Joined: 1998
|
It points out the flaw in the OP
Apr 12, 2023, 2:33 PM
|
|
It, unintentionally, takes shots at people who didn't follow that formula.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
I definitely meant no personal insult to anyone
Apr 12, 2023, 3:02 PM
|
|
Or commentary on the character of anyone who does or doesn't do these things. I really intended it as cultural commentary. We're living in a day when these sorts of choices are seen as, at best, old-fashioned, and at worst, as hateful or bigoted. Problem is, they work, even if you don't view them as morally superior choices.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
I just can't understand how people get turned off
Apr 12, 2023, 3:30 PM
|
|
to organized religion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
54
Posts: 44815
Joined: 2010
|
In only one post in this entire thread, way down one
Apr 12, 2023, 3:40 PM
|
|
deep rabbit hole, have I referred to any sort of religious value.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [86887]
TigerPulse: 100%
62
Posts: 59943
Joined: 2004
|
Well, you just relayed your framed choices as "morally
Apr 12, 2023, 4:03 PM
|
|
superior".
Did anyone really need to infer any religious context? I think its goes without stating..from the OP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tiger Titan [46471]
TigerPulse: 100%
58
Posts: 41891
Joined: 1998
|
Re: I definitely meant no personal insult to anyone
Apr 13, 2023, 1:56 PM
[ in reply to I definitely meant no personal insult to anyone ] |
|
Problem is, they work, even if you don't view them as morally superior choices.
They don't work for everyone. The opposite works for some. I still drink my fill. I had sex before marriage. Although I have stayed with my wife, so I'll give you that one. And I'm very happy with my life for the most part. The idea that drinking, smoking, and sex before marriage are morally inferior and lead to unfulfilled life are indeed old fashioned ones.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate Tiger [35571]
TigerPulse: 100%
56
Posts: 34425
Joined: 1999
|
One thing to remember: correlation vs. causation
Apr 12, 2023, 4:10 PM
|
|
I missed it at first but some others in here picked up on it. Your post suggests that doing those 5 things are the cause of improvements in life expectancy, quality of life, etc., which might be true but it's not certain at all. Rather, it could be that a good quality of life, better education, and mental health are themselves the cause of less drug use, divorce, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top TigerNet [29031]
TigerPulse: 100%
55
Posts: 15120
Joined: 2014
|
Re: The Basics
1
Apr 13, 2023, 2:59 PM
|
|
You forgot sugar. Definitely a link between sugar and obesity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Phenom [14170]
TigerPulse: 100%
49
|
Not just raw sugar and high fructose corn syrup -
Apr 14, 2023, 8:40 AM
|
|
eating a lot of high carbohydrate foods has made us an extremely fat society. From a body chemistry stand point - eating a bowl of rice is practically the same as eating a bowl candy - the body's digestive system turns those carbs into sugar and processes it mostly the same...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 113
| visibility 1270
|
|
|
50
