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Webmaster [∞]
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TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 11:58 AM
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Orange Phenom [14935]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 12:02 PM
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Game Changer [1652]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 12:02 PM
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I thought it said update? That’s what they said last Thursday repeated by Dabo
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110%er [5072]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 12:16 PM
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Not much has changed, but at least they're reporting that they're hearing that nothing has changed. I do think the part about the NCAA telling Clemson they needed to prove it was taken unknowingly is new. I know we've all figured that much already, but I think that's the first I've read that sort of confirmed as much.
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CU Guru [1628]
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Lots has changed... Read between the lines
Jan 2, 2019, 4:25 PM
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"Clemson spokesman" - an unnamed "spokesman", during the week of the National Championship, speaking exclusively to Tnet about "looking at all options for an appeal". The system is working well- the ruling will be overturned.
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Orange Blooded [2446]
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Re: Lots has changed... Read between the lines
Jan 2, 2019, 9:43 PM
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Ok folks. You can all go home now. Sherlock Holmes has shown up and the case is solved. Or is this The Batman? I cant tell. Either way, the problem is all solved, finito.
I just want to hear the NCAA say...if it werent for you meddling kids...
Or maybe you just have a tremendous taste for sarcasm...im still up in the air over the whole thing
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Offensive Star [317]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 12:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update ] |
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exactly, delay and let it fade seems to be the strategy. They just dont have proof. So much for transparency,
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MVP [526]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 1:42 PM
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exactly, delay and let it fade seems to be the strategy. They just dont have proof. So much for transparency,
I don’t understand how you can reach that conclusion as it would infer that Clemson has no interest in these guys being able to play, whether now or for the next year.
Can you make that case?
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Offensive Star [317]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 3:56 PM
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it would not, it would infer they have to proof, no alternatives and so they have no choice
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110%er [6938]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 2:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update ] |
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You have to learn to read between the lines! The update is that there's No update, that's the obvious update.
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Asst Coach [865]
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And so it begins...
Jan 2, 2019, 12:08 PM
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this is last week all over again. Now my day will be ruined with angst about the "update".
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All-Time Great [89510]
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TLDR=No new update.***
Jan 2, 2019, 12:22 PM
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Tiger Titan [50674]
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proving a negative
Jan 2, 2019, 12:23 PM
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best of luck in the nfl dex
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Heisman Winner [86139]
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That's pretty much a no brainer when
Jan 2, 2019, 12:29 PM
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you have a positive test.
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Campus Hero [13863]
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Yep
Jan 2, 2019, 12:28 PM
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Even if they manage to prove contamination it will never happen before the title game. The best possible outcome now is that Galloway and Giella get reinstated for next season, but even that's not very likely.
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Clemson Icon [27118]
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Why is that...?***
Jan 2, 2019, 12:33 PM
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Campus Hero [13863]
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Which part?***
Jan 2, 2019, 12:35 PM
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Associate AD [1097]
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Re: Why is that...?***
Jan 2, 2019, 5:44 PM
[ in reply to Why is that...?*** ] |
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The NCAA has lost all creditability. Swofferd is a joke and I'm not talking bout Clemson issue. His ability to govern is gone. Fire the SOBee. In the real world he would have been gone long ago. His ethics are dirty and clouded
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Letterman [257]
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Re: Why is that...?***
Jan 3, 2019, 1:51 AM
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I'm not impressed with the NCAA's sense of fairness either. They don't seem to be able to admit that they were wrong, ever. They also seem to get caught up in details to the extent that they can't see any larger picture.
It's important to remember, as most seem to have forgotten, that the NCAA exists at the behest of the universities that they serve. Too often, the tail wags the dog. The only stick that the NCAA has is that they can forbid members to play universities that are not in good standing.
If we really don't like the NCAA, then we should call for its dissolution and a new association and new bylaws.
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110%er [3631]
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Re: Clemson needs to specify the basis for the appeal
Jan 2, 2019, 1:19 PM
[ in reply to Yep ] |
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I'm not saying they haven't done so.
But the NCAA is required to make a good-faith effort to hear an appeal within 48 hours of being notified of an intent to appeal. It does not need to be the full board that hears the case.
However, the lab findings are indisputable. The student-athletes have been found guilty. There is no appeal that will change that.
They will all lose a year of eligibility. The only thing that can change that is to put the blame on someone else--the institution itself, an employee, a coach--who then must suffer some consequence for causing 3 athletes to fail. Then the athletes' penalties can be reduced.
There is NO case-specific information that is allowed into the appeal process. It doesn't matter whether they are from good homes or bad; if they are of good character or not; their potential of going pro; it doesn't even matter how much of the banned substance they had; whether or not it was effective in enhancing performance; or even which banned substance is in question. None of that matters.
Bottom line: unless Clemson can find someone more guilty in this process than our 3 guys, and appeal on that basis, they will pay the full penalty. If Drad's investigation isn't completed yet, in an effort to find what went wrong, that's the reason for the delay.
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Campus Hero [13863]
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Yeah, but the big issue here is that the evidence needed
Jan 2, 2019, 2:53 PM
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to win an appeal an appeal is going to be difficult to obtain and will also likely require a good deal of time. First they need to identify the contaminated product (if there even is one) and have it tested in a lab to verify contamination. They will then likely need to find a control to test (like a 2nd bottle of a supplement from the same batch) and have that tested as well. Then they have to present that evidence at the appeal. Barring all of that, our guys our suspended for a year. And there just isn't realistically enough time to get all of that done before Monday.
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Orange Blooded [2278]
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Re: Yeah, but the big issue here is that the evidence needed
Jan 2, 2019, 3:29 PM
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We all saw how long the tests can take sitting on the edge of our seats for the B tests. I have accepted the fact that it is unlikely that we get them back for the NCG. Don't know if it was correct but I read somewhere that regardless a negative test was required for a substance that can show up in nanograms/ml. If the 0.0002 figure that I saw was in those units and a 24 hour half life, then it would take 2 weeks beyond the first test for the average person to test clean. Add a few more days for lab tests and I am not sure there is time for an appeal even knowing the source. I am a little more optimistic on the future. I expect that no expense will be spared to clear these young men and there are only so many things that all three have come in contact with. Pipedream or not I expect to see Galloway and Giella opening game next year.
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110%er [3631]
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Re: Yeah, but the big issue here is that the evidence needed
Jan 2, 2019, 4:39 PM
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I don't think that's a pipedream.
It just takes time. Big Dex doesn't have much, but getting Zach & Braden eligible for 2019 would be great.
But this might not even be resolved quickly enough for Dex to consider staying in school as a serious option. I think he has to declare for the NFL by 1/14. Without a winnable appeal in place, it's automatic that he leaves.
I don't know if he can declare for the draft, and then change his mind and come back to school if he wins an appeal.
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1st Rounder [630]
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Here’s a Sophie’s choice:
Jan 2, 2019, 6:02 PM
[ in reply to Yeah, but the big issue here is that the evidence needed ] |
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Do you rush the appeal for Dex and not have a full case, possibly risking the other two being reinstated next year
Or
Assume Dex is a lost cause and come up with a stronger case that has a good chance of exonerating the other two
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Clemson Sports Icon [59606]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 12:32 PM
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I find it hard to believe that the Clemson medical staff hasn't did a blood test on those guys to find out the exact consideration of the drug that was in their system. And if they have done that, they aren't sharing that info for reasons of not letting this go until they can get a chance to prove their case through the legal system bc, if it isn't a consideration, that would prove that the actual pills wasn't taken, and that it came from something they eat or drank that just had trace amounts of the OSTARINE (MK-2866)in it. And that will most likely in a court of law proves there wasn't an intent to use the drug for performance reasons, and they were victims of circumstances bc that drug is in so many thing and not even listed bc of the small amounts. I'm pretty sure that things like that in such small amounts don't have to be listed bc it isn't enough to cause a person any harm. It's an additive with other additives to help boost energy, and if it isn't enough to do someone harm, companies don't list it bc of it's name and what it's used for in larger doses....
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All-Conference [436]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 1:13 PM
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None of that matters as the %/amount in a players system is not a data point that can cause reversal of suspension.
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Scout Team [162]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 12:33 PM
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Polygraph?
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Orange Immortal [66085]
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My thoughts exactly - bring in the FBI
Jan 2, 2019, 1:05 PM
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or whomever is the most widely accepted lie detector expert and get tests done on all 3 players. If all 3 pass what else could the amateurs at the NCAA governing body have that could prove it was taken on purpose?
Message was edited by: clover65®
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Scout Team [162]
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Re: My thoughts exactly - bring in the FBI
Jan 2, 2019, 1:17 PM
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Seems reasonable to me and potentially fairly quick.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: My thoughts exactly - bring in the FBI
Jan 3, 2019, 1:53 AM
[ in reply to My thoughts exactly - bring in the FBI ] |
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I can see the NCAA right now saying that lie detector tests aren't admissible as evidence in court, and therefore they aren't admissible in their "rigorous" appeal process, either.
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Varsity [208]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 1:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update ] |
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I seconded that. As terrible a thing as that may sound, I trust Big Dex whole heartly and he simplely has no reason to lie about something like that.
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Offensive Star [317]
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Clemson Icon [27086]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 1:18 PM
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So one option is for the school to admit they gave it to the players? Sounds like a set up to me. NCAA not liking someone challenging Alabama’s reign?
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110%er [3631]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 1:24 PM
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Yes.
Or for the school to admit to having an inadequate drug education program.
But then the school faces penalties even more severe than losing 3 years' of players' eligibilities.
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Legend [18408]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 1:45 PM
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Inadequate drug education means they took something not administered by the university. All three have emphatically denied taking anything on their own. I would be astounded if they haven’t tested all the products these fellas are using.
I would have to think the university has had all kinds of expertise in there trying to figure it out. Maybe not and I’m just taking it for granted they have.
Given that I trust our faculty have been working on it tirelessly, the lie detector test seems reasonable to present along with the university concluding in their own investigation they determined that the only plausible scenario is someone sabatogged the players and there is an ongoing investigation to uncover who.
Is that something that could be presented?
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Orange Blooded [2189]
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'Prove they didn't know they took the substance'
Jan 2, 2019, 1:31 PM
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Almost impossible to prove a negative.
Only chance is to find the source.
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Rock Defender [74]
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Re: 'Prove they didn't know they took the substance'
Jan 2, 2019, 4:40 PM
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I wouldn't say food is the source. Most likely it would be hygene products like hair spray or something like that. Clemson can test the epsom salts they use in the baths,etc, but the guys can help out by telling them the products they are using so those can be tested. Most people don't usually change out products they use very often so it should be straightforward to investigate products in use. Find A source and present that to the NCAA. If you find one source and all 3 had used it and it is not listed as an ingredient then you have reasonable doubt the players knew they had gotten it.
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Clemson Sports Icon [59606]
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Re: 'Prove they didn't know they took the substance'
Jan 2, 2019, 5:38 PM
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If it was something that they ingested not realizing it, I'm going to go with it was something they bought from a convenient store that one of their friends told them would give them some energy like a red bull type energy drink. Regardless, I really feel bad for Dex not being able to play in two of his biggest games at Clemson, and he will move on to the NFL come draft day. Then there is Braden Galloway that will lose a season of eligibility, and Zach Giella probably would have gotten a lot more playing time next season as a senior.
I do have a question about Giella and Galloway, what is the rule with their scholarships for next season if their suspensions hold up, and they are indeed suspended from any sports activity for next season. Do they lose their scholarship for next year, or do they keep them.
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Legend [18408]
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Re: 'Prove they didn't know they took the substance'
Jan 2, 2019, 5:50 PM
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Excellent points!
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110%er [3631]
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Re: keep their scholarships?
Jan 3, 2019, 12:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: 'Prove they didn't know they took the substance' ] |
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No specific knowledge here, but some supposition.
NCAA says the players lose a full season of eligibility, so Dex and Zach would be done with football--until the CFP in 2019--if they stay at Clemson. Galloway would lose his 2nd year and cannot use it as a RS; the year is 'lost', though I think he could use it as a transfer year if he thinks he has a need to start over somewhere else.
But apparently all other penalties are up to Dabo and his boss.
The players are suspended now but are with the team and engaging in team activities.
Deon Cain's one-game suspension was much more punitive. Dabo sent him home, rebuked him publicly, kicked him off the team, and made him go through a rigorous process to be restored to the team. Transferring might have been easier for him. I think Dabo let him keep his schollie once he committed to returning to the team, but I'm not sure if it lapsed at any point. Don't see how.
The alternative would be Will Grier's situation at FL. When he was suspended mid season, he wanted to keep practicing with the team (depending who you believe) but was told to stay away. Since his relationship with the team/coach were broken, he figured he might as well get a fresh start elsewhere. The NCAA did allow his suspension year to serve as his transfer sit-out year, so he was able to play 2 complete seasons at WVU. I'm pretty sure he kept his scholarship at FL until he withdrew from school.
Pretty sure If Dabo pulls the scholarship from any of them, they are officially off the team.
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Legend [18408]
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Re: 'Prove they didn't know they took the substance'
Jan 2, 2019, 5:48 PM
[ in reply to Re: 'Prove they didn't know they took the substance' ] |
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Exactly. I know I could and would be presenting everything I’ve used or had. Like you said, seems a good bit could be eliminated because it’s only something common to all three.
That’s why I say if it’s not the salt bath or anything the s&c uses then it’d have to happen when they all went out or something like that... or been intentional sabotage. Then you have to start looking at who had access- pretty much like a police investigation. I would have thought they’d been doing that from the get go.
Scientists and medical should be able to narrow to a very small window.
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Recruit [99]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 1:37 PM
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So you need to know what you ate, drank, swollowed, rubbed into your hair etc. It is an impossible ask. I say if they know didn’t take anything with the drug than submit to a lie detector test. Proving was unaware just too difficult.
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1st Rounder [666]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 2:09 PM
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We don't know the dose, but likely it was introduced within the 2 weeks prior to the test. That should give them a rough window to start analyzing everything they can think of. Most people tend to have a set routine when it comes to supplements or heck, even shampoo, so might not be as much you think to come up with a list. Did read that is possible for ostarine to be stored in fat tissue, which means it would be re-released in the event the body burns some fat storage. I'm hoping they have more insider knowledge to build a case, but probably wishful thinking on my part.
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All-Conference [428]
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Simple solution.....have players take a polygraph***
Jan 2, 2019, 1:57 PM
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110%er [7011]
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Again, have the idiot in the 9th circuit court
Jan 2, 2019, 3:38 PM
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of appeals file a temporary injunction against the NCAA citing they presume guilt before innocence.
Anyways, how much exactly is a trace? is it more than a smidegeon, less than a dibby-dab, half a pinch or what?
Filing that should take it out to Big Dex being a great-grandfather as slow as the NCAA is. Mebbe they need a dose of Ostarine.
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110%er [3756]
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How is this an update?
Jan 2, 2019, 4:18 PM
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We already knew all of this
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Team Captain [471]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 4:58 PM
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I'm also interested to find out if the Bama suspended players will be allowed to participate in the NCG and if so (even if not), why it is allowed that the reason for the suspensions were allowed to remain secret if they were NCAA violations.
They could very well also be failed drug tests, but kept under the radar and allowed to return we really be a double-standard.
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Legend [18408]
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 5:54 PM
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You’re right, they did say ncaa violations. Because even if it was pot or something like that, wouldn’t the ncaa suspension be the same? I’m asking.
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Commissioner [990]
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Without more details, it's impossible to say when
Jan 2, 2019, 6:09 PM
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the drug was even introduced into the system; we just probably won't get all those details given the sensitity of the medical records and legal nature of the appeal. I don't even know if the players tested positive for osterine or rather just some form of related metabolite(s) produced by the body as a result of the parent drug having been in the system at some point in time.
If this is similar to oral turinabol (a similar type of substance), there is a chance that this is some lingering medium- or long-term metabolite being released by the body. If tested again the next day, all the players could potentially pass a urine test given the supposed levels within the system. The same is true that they could suddenly test even higher given that we're apparently talking about an estimated range of picograms.
If you read my post from the other day https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/Drug-Testing-for-Dummies-24779131, there's a lot more information on the topic. In fact, there's a chance that the players test positive or negative for certain long-term metabolites months or even years down the road; not much is known on how long the body can produce and/or store these metabolites/markers and when they'll be present in the tests.
I'm completely speculating on the topic, but if this was a result of some cream or otherwise from part of the off-season rehab for these guys, there's seemingly no chance to find the source. We're talking about the potential this was one random batch of salt tablets or a single bottle of cream from months ago and finding it now.
This whole situation might end up being utilized as a an example of the "fairness" of these tests in light of the levels of testing and the very real chance of cross-contamination of everyday products. Unfortunately, science has gotten ahead of the people making these rules and people like Dex, Zach, and Braden bear the price the most.
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Clemson Icon [27118]
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Excellent post... Minuscule traces shouldn't have huge
Jan 2, 2019, 6:36 PM
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impacts on young men's lives. My first question: Which subcontracted lab did the original collection and testing?
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Hall of Famer [8494]
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Hall of Famer [8494]
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How do you prove that?
Jan 2, 2019, 7:06 PM
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How do you prove "that the student-athletes unknowingly took the substance"??? They have NO IDEA how ostarine got into their system!!!
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Hall of Famer [8494]
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How do you prove that?
Jan 2, 2019, 7:06 PM
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How do you prove "that the student-athletes unknowingly took the substance"??? They have NO IDEA how ostarine got into their system!!!
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Hall of Famer [8494]
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How do you prove that?
Jan 2, 2019, 7:06 PM
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How do you prove "that the student-athletes unknowingly took the substance"??? They have NO IDEA how ostarine got into their system!!!
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Orange Phenom [14406]
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The NCAA is opening up the door for other schools and fans
Jan 2, 2019, 7:18 PM
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to sabotage if they don't change this idiotic policy. I still think that is what happened here.
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Letterman [262]
TigerPulse: 87%
14
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North Korea to NCAA, thank you for adopting
Jan 2, 2019, 8:23 PM
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Our political agenda of Guilty when we say so and innocent if we feel like it. We'll feel like it when the payoffs start rolling in.
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Letterman [262]
TigerPulse: 87%
14
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North Korea to NCAA, thank you for adopting
Jan 2, 2019, 8:23 PM
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Our political agenda of Guilty when we say so and innocent if we feel like it. We'll feel like it when the payoffs start rolling in.
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Gridiron Giant [15703]
TigerPulse: 100%
50
Posts: 10048
Joined: 2016
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 2, 2019, 8:47 PM
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Silence is a virtue. Know the appropriate time and words when to speak. I'm sure the Tigers don't want to say anything until it's yay or nay.
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Letterman [257]
TigerPulse: 100%
14
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 3, 2019, 2:06 AM
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I've been following this situation closely, and I truly hope that the three players get exonerated before the game. I don't think that the NCAA has much sense of fairness about them, though, and I think it's getting to the point that they are out of touch with their mandate. I will be very sorry to see that these young men are the most recent victims of the NCAA's intransigence, if they in fact don't let them play.
If enough universities get the feeling that it's time to make a change, then the NCAA will be dismantled and reorganized, one way or another. Their interference with the way that universities handle their academic discipline, as happened with the vacating of Notre Dame's wins, is a large step in that direction. (While I realize that pretty much any protest about the vacating of those wins will generally be dismissed as simple homerism, I invite anyone to look into the details of the situation and see whether they still feel that there is no reason for concern.)
Anyway, I sincerely hope that the players get to play. Best of luck on Monday.
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Team Captain [471]
TigerPulse: 97%
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 3, 2019, 2:22 AM
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As I've suggested before, we could easily "resolve" this situation by lacing some osterine powder into a supplement or product that doesn't list it on the ingredients and honestly, it'd probably be as fair as the current situation where the NCAA is asking them to prove a negative.
So put it this way, given the fact that we haven't done such a thing to vindicate our players more or less proves the same point, that we are honest and they are honest and they didn't ingest it knowingly or willingly.
If we weren't there would be no reason not to do that. That fact alone should be given consideration in clearing these players for the game. Such a stupid situation.
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Athletic Dir [1147]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Sabotage
Jan 3, 2019, 11:35 AM
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I have wondered if someone outside of the University placed it into something that they consumed. It could have come sprinkled on a pizza or a burger. There have been dirt bags with so little class that the Rock has been vandalized twice... why not vandalize our players?
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Trainer [26]
TigerPulse: 37%
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 3, 2019, 12:51 PM
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Nothing more will come of this but the real damage is already done.
The general public believes this to be just the tip of the iceberg and will treat the entire program as guilty until proven innocent. The saying goes 'you're not a cheater until you get caught once and once you get caught cheating once you're always a cheater" This is a complete 180 in public perception and the previously squeaky clean program of Dabo will now be seen as cheaters. People are already dismissing the success of this program.
Motive was always there and the miraculous rise to Alabama level seemed too good to be true but now three pieces of evidence is going to take a lot to overcome. We will know for sure if it was widespread or not if we see a correction in the god-like level of play on the field during the next season.
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Orange Immortal [66577]
TigerPulse: 100%
60
Posts: 40949
Joined: 2001
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I only hear this kind of crap from coots.
Jan 3, 2019, 1:02 PM
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??
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Game Changer [1672]
TigerPulse: 94%
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Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update
Jan 3, 2019, 1:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Dexter Lawrence suspension update ] |
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If we believe that these guys did not take this stuff intentionally, and I believe we all do, then most of our efforts MUST be put into finding out how it got into their systems. Dex is gone for the game, let's make sure that we find out they tested positive and make sure that it doesn't happen again. Right now, this stuff is a time bomb, it could contaminate another player when we don't need it.
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