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If I chose, in public, to not say the Pledge of Allegiance
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All-In [26968]
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If I chose, in public, to not say the Pledge of Allegiance
Aug 23, 2017, 12:31 PM
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and not cover my heart during it, because I don't want to pledge allegiance to the flag of a country that sanctions the murder of children, what would you think of me?
(I don't do this, but I have thought about it.)
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Rock Defender [54]
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Pledging allegiance to a flag always struck me as
Aug 23, 2017, 12:33 PM
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problematic for Christians. Also don't quite understand why we expect children to do it daily, yet most of the posters in here maybe do it 3-4 times/year.
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All-In [26968]
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Agree, I have trouble with it.
Aug 23, 2017, 12:35 PM
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This would be an extremely, EXTREMELY unpopular opinion among most Christians, though. I have not stirred any waters over it.
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Lot o points [156563]
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If you only pledged allegiance to countries you agreed
Aug 23, 2017, 12:37 PM
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with perfectly on every topic and ideology, you'd be left with the United BravoProdigal States of GaithersFamilyBandistan.
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All-In [26968]
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Why should we pledge allegiance to any country?***
Aug 23, 2017, 12:38 PM
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All-In [28802]
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Because stateless people can't be guaranteed rights?
Aug 23, 2017, 12:44 PM
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It sounds like you're doing the libertarian version of utopian thinking.
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All-In [26968]
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Can't one be a citizen of a state...
Aug 23, 2017, 12:45 PM
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Without reciting an oath? I'm a citizen because I was born in the USA, not because I made a pledge.
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Lot o points [156563]
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out of curiosity..
Aug 23, 2017, 12:46 PM
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who exactly is making you recite it? Surely you're not claiming peer pressure as a mandate?
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All-In [26968]
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Not a literal mandate, but absolutely...
Aug 23, 2017, 12:49 PM
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the peer pressure is enormous, especially in the crowd I'm normally with when the pledge is recited.
I honestly think if I chose to publicly not say the Pledge, it would have a very, very negative impact on my life and my family.
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Lot o points [156563]
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Well, there's a reason the phrase is
Aug 23, 2017, 12:50 PM
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"the courage of your convictions".
It sounds like you're at a point where you're just noodling this one out, and your reluctance isn't exactly a conviction.
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All-In [26968]
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You're definitely right...
Aug 23, 2017, 12:53 PM
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It's not a strong conviction. Just something I think about sometimes. I definitely think about it every time I say the pledge. My heart is not in it.
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Varsity [248]
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All-In [26968]
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My crowd is not perfectly aligned with me
Aug 23, 2017, 2:18 PM
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in every way, and neither is yours.
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Varsity [248]
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Agreed...
Aug 23, 2017, 2:30 PM
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...but I'm not modifying my behavior out of some need or desire to fit in, especially regarding something like the "Pledge of Allegiance."
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All-In [26968]
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I'm not modifying, either...
Aug 23, 2017, 2:47 PM
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I'd be modifying if I stopped saying it. 
Seriously, it's not just about fitting in, in this case. It's a lot bigger than that. I'm talking about serious damage to important relationships and duties, that aren't worth risking because of a pledge.
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All-In [28802]
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Of course, but it's a sort of rite of reminder
Aug 23, 2017, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to Can't one be a citizen of a state... ] |
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Very similar to the recitation of creeds and the like. It's a way to get people to think about a certain aspect of their lives, and it's formulated to get people to think about American citizenship in a very specific way.
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All-In [28802]
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There is the whole "Under God" part
Aug 23, 2017, 12:42 PM
[ in reply to Agree, I have trouble with it. ] |
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Perhaps that was added with Christians in mind, to indicate who's truly sovereign.
In general, though, I do think it's sort of odd that we've decided this needs to be done at sporting events. But, then again, I'm not going to complain too much about anything that makes people think more about what it means to be a citizen of the US. Christians aren't immune to political concerns just because they believe their ultimate citizenship lies elsewhere.
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All-In [26968]
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I wonder sometimes if people think about what they are sayin
Aug 23, 2017, 12:44 PM
[ in reply to Pledging allegiance to a flag always struck me as ] |
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Most of the time, people just focus on the part that goes, "one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". That's the rah-rah part, I get it.
But the first three words are heavy. I pledge allegiance? Unconditionally? Above all others? As opposed to what?
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Lot o points [156563]
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It's not a verbatim thing anymore homie.
Aug 23, 2017, 12:46 PM
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We sort of threw out the "indivisible" part a decade or two ago.
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All-In [28802]
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Well, of course it's not unconditional
Aug 23, 2017, 12:51 PM
[ in reply to I wonder sometimes if people think about what they are sayin ] |
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If it's "under God," then it's not unconditional. There's also the whole "to the republic for which it stands... with liberty and justice for all" part. I think this expresses the idea that our nation isn't just about "blood and soil," and that it properly stands for "liberty and justice for all."
Sort of interestingly, you can compare this to some of the leaders of the Confederacy who didn't necessarily agree with the majority of the Confederate cause, but who fought for their home states anyway. They considered their nation to be about their homeland, not just about abstract ideas of "liberty and justice for all." I think there's something to be said for that, but it's a good example of how nationalism can lead to questionable allegiances when it means "my country wrong or right."
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All-In [26968]
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This is a good discussion...
Aug 23, 2017, 12:54 PM
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What if I believe, currently, that the nation is not "under God," and that it does not stand for "liberty and justice for all"? Am I pledging to a non-existent ideal?
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All-In [28802]
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Maybe, but you might also prefer to work for reform
Aug 23, 2017, 1:24 PM
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That's always been the conservative way, anyway. If you believe the foundations are strong, then you don't abandon them when you see cracks further up the structure. You repair those cracks and try to improve the soundness of the overall building. The more revolutionary answer is to look a current injustices or at things that you think are currently going to the wrong way, and then to condemn the whole edifice as rotten and therefore in need of being torn down.
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CU Guru [1097]
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Then I would think
Aug 23, 2017, 12:36 PM
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you hated America or were anti-American.
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Hall of Famer [22445]
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I would view it as a form of protest that causes absolutely
Aug 23, 2017, 12:38 PM
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no harm to anyone and I probably wouldn't even notice if not for the right wingers who would want to keelhaul your ####.
Now, if you chose not to stand during the National Anthem, then...
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Varsity [248]
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Lol
Aug 23, 2017, 1:27 PM
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More of that liberal "tolerance."
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All-In [48078]
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If I ever own a NFL team, I am not hiring you as my starting
Aug 23, 2017, 12:47 PM
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QB. You missed your chance.
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CU Medallion [58755]
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At least you would be protesting something which, if your
Aug 23, 2017, 2:32 PM
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claim is correct (murder), is actually sanctioned by this country.
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CU Medallion [60282]
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I'd think you were a Jehovah's Witness***
Aug 23, 2017, 3:08 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83263]
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The Pledge is pretty dumb, like how many people stand
Aug 23, 2017, 4:03 PM
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and put their hand over their heart when it plays before a game they are watching on TV.
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All-In [46269]
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Are you Jehovah Witness?***
Aug 23, 2017, 5:30 PM
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All-In [26968]
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No
Aug 23, 2017, 9:09 PM
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I'm a Baptist, and that's as patriotic as denominations get.
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Legend [17986]
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The pledge is a statement of conviction
Aug 23, 2017, 5:48 PM
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and of commitment. You pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States - none other.
Conviction comes that there is none other (flag) that represents a better way than that which is constructed within the framework of our constitution. Wherever the flag waves, you stand with it because you assert the beliefs and foundations that it represents.
And to the Republic for which it stands.
It is not a statement of agreement with every action this nation takes. But it is a statement that through the good and bad you recognize and stand with this republic that does the best it can within the times that it is living. It is not a perfectly organized group who walk hand in hand to the ice cream shop or sip soda while smiling at the rainbow that is ever before them. But it is a conviction that we go [together] no matter how hard or how good the journey is.
One nation - only one because a house divided cannot stand.
Under God, indivisible - knowing that our faults will be judged but seeking omnipotent guidance to keep us true to self and to neighbor for the care and protection of one another. God made all men equal and gives them the right to pursue their life, making the best of it they each one can.
with liberty and justice for all - nuff said.
...that care and protection of another....that comes at a cost. honor that sacrifice whether you honor the sentiments of your neighbor or not.
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Legend [15761]
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I would be indifferent. ******
Aug 23, 2017, 6:36 PM
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110%er [5323]
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I'd probably just go on about my daily
Aug 24, 2017, 2:31 PM
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life because I'm not a complete loser.
I wouldn't hope for you to lose your job or gloat when you did. I wouldn't attack your character or question your patriotism. I wouldn't tell you to move to another country under some self-righteous assumption that I had the right to tell you do so.
I'm just...ya know. Not a retarded psychopath.
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