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CU Medallion [59595]
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Border question: Is it morally wrong to "shut down the border" and stop people
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:04 AM
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from crossing illegally in the first place, and to immediately send them back if they do cross illegally? In other words, do we have the right to keep people out of our country based criteria we set?
It seems that a lot of people feel that as a sovereign nation, we don't have the right to deny entry to people who wish to enter our country, and that doing so is morally wrong (the situation we are in now is proof of that), and I can't for the life of me understand why.
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110%er [9713]
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Re: Border question: Is it morally wrong to "shut down the border" and stop people
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:08 AM
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nope
"do we have the right to keep people out of our country based criteria we set?"
wow
this is why we are done as a nation, most people are corrupt, the rest are too lazy to stop them
suicide
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All-In [43332]
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Morally wrong? No
Jun 4, 2024, 10:08 AM
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If we're also talking shutting it down for asylum seekers, I think the question deserves a little more pause, but also can understand where that answer also needs to be "no" given certain criteria/circumstances.
Where it crosses the line is when lethal force is used, and we all know that's what some people want because they're sick in the head.
It seems that a lot of people feel the answer to the above is "no", and I can't for the life of me understand why.
I'm confused here... I thought you would answer "no" as well?
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CU Medallion [59595]
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Apologies - my wording was contradictory and confusing.
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:22 AM
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I suck at multi-multi-multi-tasking. Reworded as follows:
It seems that a lot of people feel that as a sovereign nation, we don't have the right to deny entry to people who wish to enter our country, and that doing so is morally wrong (the situation we are in now is proof of that), and I can't for the life of me understand why.
Why can't we decide who gets in and who doesn't, have a process in place to make that determination, and while we work to make that process better and more efficient, simply keep people out until then without apology?
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All-In [43332]
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Isn't that easier said than done with the scope of our border?***
Jun 4, 2024, 10:23 AM
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CU Medallion [59595]
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Well . . .
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:25 AM
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That wasn't the question.
I know this prompts a lot of other questions and follow up questions, but this is where it all starts.
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All-In [43332]
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But hold up
Jun 4, 2024, 10:34 AM
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You responded with a follow up question:
Why can't we decide who gets in and who doesn't, have a process in place to make that determination, and while we work to make that process better and more efficient, simply keep people out until then without apology?
You first asked about the morality, which, IMO, is an easy answer and we both agree on it.
Given that, you ask the "why can't we?" So then I gotta respond with the "how"? You're oversimplifying this. We can agree what SHOULD be done; figuring out how to do it isn't easy. At this moment, we simply don't have the manpower or the resources to stop it. We can't "simply keep people out".
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CU Medallion [59595]
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Cool, but that's a different question.
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:43 AM
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When I said "Why can't we decide who gets in and who doesn't ...?" I'm asking that based on the assumption that it is entirely possible, because my question is about the moral concerns and implications of borders, border control, and immigration, not the logistics or practicalities involved.
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All-In [43332]
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Well, if we had the means to make that determination
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:44 AM
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Then I'm all for us making that decision, and the answer to "why can't we decide..." is simply, "We can."
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CU Medallion [59595]
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I'm asking it this way because I think we (generally speaking) have always
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:53 AM
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assumed that we have not only a right, but a moral duty to control our borders, but in recent years that's no longer the case for many, as evidenced by the current situation, and deciding to do so now carries severe political consequences.
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All-In [43332]
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I think you know one of the reasons why "we can't"
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:55 AM
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And that's because certain people in power are playing a long game with immigration that they think will secure their side more power in the future.
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CU Medallion [59595]
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No doubt - kinda what I meant by
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:59 AM
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deciding to do so now carries severe political consequences.
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All-In [43332]
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It's a dangerous, short-sighted game they're playing
Jun 4, 2024, 11:00 AM
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Then again, that's how most of our politicians work.
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CU Medallion [59595]
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Once we agree or come to a comprimise on the moral side of it, only
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to Cool, but that's a different question. ] |
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then are the logistics relevant. It all starts with and hinges on that.
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Team Captain [471]
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Re: Apologies - my wording was contradictory and confusing.
Jun 4, 2024, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to Apologies - my wording was contradictory and confusing. ] |
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It seems there are several things at work here in your statements and questions.
Is it "morally" wrong? Absolutely not. Morality has very little with the legal immigration laws and/or requirements. Using the word means that we have a moral obligation to take anyone that comes across our borders. OK, but as has been said as infinitum, there's a correct way.
"why can't we decide who gets in and who doesn't?" Because we're not a club. Again, this language (and I may be way off base here) seems to imply that immigration seems somewhat racially based. I mean, nobody is yelling about all the Canadians that come across. I apologize ahead of this. I'm really not trying to play the race card in this. But others have.
We have a right and an obligation to insure the safety and welfare of the citizens of this country. Particularly in this post 9-11 age. We have an obligation to screen or detain anyone entering the country. Call it a moral obligation if you will. Am I happy about that? No, but this was not of our own making. It is the world we live in.
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All-In [27048]
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Recommended read on this topic
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:10 AM
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World History for Dummies.
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All-In [26038]
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NO. Legal immigration or GTFO...***
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:12 AM
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All-In [27048]
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All-In [27048]
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All-In [27048]
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All-In [27048]
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All-In [43332]
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Jesus Christ, one reply will do.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:17 AM
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All-In [26038]
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Solomon says...***
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:21 AM
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"Eat one."
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Oculus Spirit [82351]
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Protecting the Circle***
Jun 4, 2024, 10:43 AM
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All-In [26038]
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More like defining it... They know who they are.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:48 AM
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Oculus Spirit [82351]
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You constantly white knight the filth posters of TNet, lol.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:49 AM
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All-In [26038]
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Truth be known, I'm more black ninja... Careful, now.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 11:01 AM
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Legend [18107]
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US law allows defensive asylum seekers which is part of the problem.
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:19 AM
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Essentially this process weakens the enforcement actions for illegal border crossing.
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Team Captain [491]
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Nope. I think as America, we have a moral duty to
Jun 4, 2024, 10:25 AM
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try our best to help less fortunate people out, but if that comes at the expense of our own citizens, shut it down until we can help, or significantly curb it.
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CU Medallion [59595]
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Is our government's first responsibility to U.S. citizens, or trying to help
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:27 AM
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people from other countries? Is the current border situation helping U.S. citizens?
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Team Captain [491]
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I believe our first duty is to our citizens.
Jun 4, 2024, 10:39 AM
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I’ll leave the evaluation of the border situation to the people who are the experts (actual experts, not TNet experts) who know it much better than me.
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Team Captain [491]
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Orange Blooded [2496]
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There's what's legal and then there's what's moral....
Jun 4, 2024, 10:25 AM
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Many people come to America to escape violence, drug gangs, organized crime, persecution, poverty and hunger. The moral thing to do is to let them across the border in an orderly fashion, give them safe haven and a legal hearing, and allow them to become contributors to our nation over time.
Now, as a Nation, we have a legal right to shut our border down. But is it moral? In many cases, I don't think so.
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CU Medallion [59595]
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Thanks for answering.
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:30 AM
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Do you think the current situation at the border is helping or hurting U.S. citizens, and should be allowed to continue as is to benefit unfortunate people from other countries?
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Orange Blooded [2496]
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It's helping....
Jun 4, 2024, 2:51 PM
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The people that come to this country tend to work very hard, often doing jobs no one else wants. Their kids and their kids' kids blend in and become Americans just like previous generations of immigrants' kids. It's a win-win. THey do jobs. THey pay taxes. They'll help boost our economies and communities across America. And over time, they'll become Americans, either themselves, or their kids....
One reason we're better as a country than other countries is our diversity, and immigration keeps that pipeline open.
But I don't want the situation to continue "as-is". I think we need to add a lot of capacity for our courts & judges to be able to adjudicate these people within weeks or months after they arrive, to determine if they honestly need help or if they're trying to scam us. I think if we added more courts & judges & more enforcement at the border, we could have a more orderly situation than we have without shutting the border down. There are millions that come here though because they are in a dire situation, and turning our backs on **THOSE** people would be immoral, I think.
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CU Medallion [59595]
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I agree that legal, controlled immigration, according soley to what best serves
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Jun 4, 2024, 3:27 PM
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U.S. citizens, helps. It would be laughable to suggest that what we have now is anywhere close to that (not saying you are). I think we are fully capable of doing it, however, with stricter measures at the border to keep illegal crossings to a minimum. It should start there, not with conceding control of the border to drug cartels and people who enter illegally with no respect for our laws from the start. I do, however, fully support anyone who comes here legally, going through the full process first (as millions have), with the desire to become full blown U.S. citizens, fully committed to our country with everything that entails. I think that kind of diversity is a huge benefit to our country. I don't think swarms of people entering freely with no regulation and being allowed to stay indefinitely is beneficial at all.
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110%er [8181]
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Diversity for the sake of diversity is not a strength for any country
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Jun 4, 2024, 4:21 PM
[ in reply to It's helping.... ] |
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I agree with some of what you had written. Gotta give you credit; you put genuine thought into your statements before posting them.
I differ with you as for the ‘diversity makes us stronger’ generalization.
It isn’t diversity, per se, that makes our country stronger. Instead, it America’s traditional willingness to accept entry into our country to those that come here to work, and therefore contribute to the health of our country.
We don’t need anyone to enter our country on fake pretexts such as ‘we’ve been persecuted in our home country, we don’t get health care and the government doesn’t feed us.’
This type of ‘diverse’ people, regardless of their racial / genetic makeup, represent a weakening of America via their consumption OF national wealth, as opposed to contribution TO our national wealth.
Thus, the objective is to encourage immigration from people whose likelihood of being net positives to America is strong, and to prevent potential immigrants whose impact is more likely to be negative.
Race and national origin are (or should be) moot factors.
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Orange Blooded [2496]
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I didn't say "diversity for the sake of diversity" anything....
Jun 5, 2024, 4:23 PM
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I think Diversity strengthens our country. Period. And it's not just racial diversity either. There are a bajillion different types of white people in our country, too. When you meet a white guy from Georgia, he has very little in common with a white guy from Utah. But this melting pot brings a lot of fresh ideas and creativity to the mix. It's one reason that the US is still very creative and entrepreneurial. Americans don't take to "one size fits all" for anything. We're very flexible and we like to carve out our own path.
I've been to other countries around the world, and a lot of them are very homogeneous. You sometimes feel like the locals are little ants doing what the guy next to them is doing. In the US, you don't get any sense of that. Everyone is doing their own thing to a degree. I find that individuality refreshing. When you've met one American, you've met one American....if you know what I mean.
So, immigration adds to our diversity, which strengthens our country. And on top of all that, immigrants greatly help our economy, too, without hurting our native population:
https://www.cbpp.org/research/immigrants-contribute-greatly-to-us-economy-despite-administrations-public-charge-rule
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2023/02/23/immigrants-make-economies-more-dynamic-increase-employment-growth/?sh=2517fb1427c9
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All-In [27048]
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What is moral to drop 2 Hydrogen bombs on Japan ? No.
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:26 AM
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Was it for the greater good ? Yes.
The world needs a strong U.S., not a diminished one.
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Orange Blooded [2496]
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Shutting down immigration won't make us stronger.****
Jun 4, 2024, 10:30 AM
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All-In [27048]
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one.***
Jun 4, 2024, 10:33 AM
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All-In [43332]
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History proves you're wrong
Jun 4, 2024, 10:35 AM
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Unchecked illegal immigration is bad, of course. But history proves legal immigration makes America stronger.
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All-In [27048]
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All-In [43332]
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I'm referring to your response to Smitty
Jun 4, 2024, 10:43 AM
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He said "shutting down immigration".
That's ALL immigration. If your comment is talking about just illegal immigration, then clarify. You know, take another 10 posts in this thread to do it if you have to.
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CU Medallion [59595]
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All-In [26038]
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Cata pulled out the semantics card, one he consistently omits in most replies.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:51 AM
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110%er [8181]
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Re: Would shutting down ILLEGAL immigration and contolling who gets in and who
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:59 AM
[ in reply to Would shutting down ILLEGAL immigration and contolling who gets in and who ] |
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Nice work, Smiling!
The deflectionists (TNetters who have been historically vocal in support of illegal immigration -and- who have voiced vigorous opposition to measures that would begin to mitigate the influx of illegals [Trump’s borderwall]) are attempting to rehabilitate their previous ‘morals’ by twisting your question into one of overall immigration, as opposed to that about which your OP inquired: Morality of refusing illegal entry immigrants.
The deflectionists will never admit that they were wrong (including being morally wrong) about their several years’ advocacy of a passive (I.e., do nothing) approach to controlling the border. (The immorality of the deflectionists’ historical position about illegal immigration is that they had no regard to the needs of ‘existing’ Americans.)
You’ve pinned the deflectionists into a corner. Suddenly, they are on the side of a smart border policy … at last until such time that their political thought masters tell them to reverse course again.
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All-In [26038]
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But at least they're consistently twisted...***
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Jun 4, 2024, 11:03 AM
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110%er [8181]
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Re: But at least they're consistently twisted...***
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Jun 4, 2024, 4:22 PM
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You can say that again.
Really … please say that again. 
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Oculus Spirit [83125]
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110%er [9943]
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I remember when "60 Minutes" would do an entire segment on finding a tunnel
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:31 AM
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into the US from Mexico - and they were horrified.
Now, our own Federal Government tries to prevent states from trying to stop folks from coming in. I'm not sure what changed...these are bizarre times.
And - no - It's not morally wrong to close the border. Let folks come in the front door and we'll try to help them there...
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CU Medallion [59595]
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Exactly.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:57 AM
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All-TigerNet [14064]
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Anyone that thinks that it is immoral; should be OK with people illegally
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:38 AM
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entering their house.
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All-In [26038]
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Buena suerte.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:53 AM
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CU Medallion [59595]
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110%er [8181]
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Re: Right. They may be hungry or need a warm bed.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 11:01 AM
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Or in need of some intimate relations with the homeowners’ children.
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All-In [43332]
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You need a psychiatrist.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 1:16 PM
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110%er [8181]
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Re: You need a psychiatrist.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 4:23 PM
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You need a sense of humor.
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All-TigerNet [12622]
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you don't lock your house?
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Jun 4, 2024, 11:02 AM
[ in reply to Right. They may be hungry or need a warm bed.*** ] |
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and you are right as far as extending help to those in need, but unfortunately the small small % of those who would take advantage of the situation with maleficence requires security.
It isn't like we have totally closed boarders, and the boarder crisis does highlight the huge problem we have now with legal entry being such a laborious process, but still need security
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All-In [26038]
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Security first, vet the current illegals, THEN establish better legal entry.***
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Jun 4, 2024, 11:07 AM
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CU Medallion [59595]
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Exactly.
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Jun 4, 2024, 11:39 AM
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1. Do everything we can to secure the border and prevent illegal crossing (Walls, razor wire, drones, more border patrol, fight the cartels, etc.).
2. Those who enter illegally and are caught are sent back.
3. In the mean time, work on a better, more efficient immigration system. Until then, we do everything feasible to curb illegal immigration and no illegals are allowed to stay in the U.S.
To me, that's totally fair, moral, and just. Of course it won't stop illegal immigration, but we can knock a significant dent in it, instead of the open inventation we have now. We shouldn't have to justify or apologize for it. Those who oppose this have an agenda I can't get my head around.
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Orange Blooded [4176]
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110%er [9713]
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Re: Exactly.
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Jun 4, 2024, 3:18 PM
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there it is
Father of Open Borders
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All-In [26038]
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He was taking care of his San Joaquin farmer/rancher buddies/backers...***
Jun 4, 2024, 4:32 PM
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CU Medallion [59595]
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IF
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Jun 4, 2024, 3:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Exactly. ] |
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we could screen them all first, so that we have an idea of who is coming in, then issue work permits based on that, and allow our neighboring Mexican citizens to go back and forth, I'm all for that. Like a work visa. I loved Reagan, but I'm not in favor of an open border whereby people from Russia, China, Iran, etc. can enter freely.
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110%er [8181]
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Re: IF
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Jun 4, 2024, 4:27 PM
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Wait for it … you’ll be accused of being anti- conservative by you-know-who because you dared to suggest to disagree with someone who wore the generalized label of ‘conservative’ as an identitifying label.
To you-know-who, it’s all about labels.
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All-In [43332]
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This is a stupid argument
Jun 4, 2024, 1:19 PM
[ in reply to Anyone that thinks that it is immoral; should be OK with people illegally ] |
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And I don't think it's immoral. This is just dumb, dumb, dumb.
Remember how you do the crybaby "Herp derp that money should go to feeding hungry Americans instead of Ukraine" even though you don't actually mean that? Okay, why aren't YOU feeding them?
See how that works? Stupid arguments don't help a debate. For once in your life, actually bring some logic and reasoning to a discussion instead of being a dumb troll.
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110%er [8181]
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Re: This is a stupid argument
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Jun 4, 2024, 4:30 PM
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You have a strange way of parodying what you describe as a stupid argument.
Hint: Using ‘hero derp’ as filler material to atone for a shortage of humorous anecdotes isn’t helping.
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110%er [8181]
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Every migrant & asylum seeker who went to another country B4 the USA - - -
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Jun 4, 2024, 10:43 AM
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- - - be disallowed to come to the USA.
The intermediate host country, as I’ll coin the countries like Mexico, Colombia, etc. had allowed the migrants into their country in the first place. These intermediate host countries had also supported, perhaps passively / perhaps actively, the migrants to use their transportation infrastructure to get to the American border.
The moral imperative to assimilate the migrants belongs to the intermediate host country.
Xxxxxx
As for migrants who originate from Mexico, our large & mutually beneficial trade relations should include more than simply trade. Both the USA and Mexico should take firm measures to protect each other from unwanted ingress of illegal drugs, trafficked children, and undocumented immigrants. This ‘courtesy’ program is the real moral imperative. (Honest trade relations requires both countries to have a moral intent to be actively mindful of the needs of each other, including aspects that are not explicitly related to trade.
Xxxxxx
Thus, there is no moral duty to accept illegal entry immigrants. True asylum seekers need to be willing to be sequestered in confined facilities while a thorough background check is conducted. If the background check cannot be comprehensively accomplished, then the asylum seeker gets repatriated to his / her native country.
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CU Medallion [59595]
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There is a difference between seeking assylum and seeking a better life.
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Jun 4, 2024, 11:43 AM
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Neither we as individuals or we as a country are obligated on any level to provide a better life for anyone, and certainly not for everyone.
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110%er [8181]
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Re: There is a difference between seeking assylum and seeking a better life.
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Jun 4, 2024, 4:39 PM
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Agree fully with you.
The ‘legal entry’ vetting process is necessary way to carefully vet those potential immigrants who are truly seeking asylum and cannot get it elsewhere vs potential immigrants who speciously want to fulfill their asylum objectives in the USA … as opposed to Mexico (with most of the asylum-in-the-USA seekers having been allowed to enter Mexico… without resistance from the Mexican government … but having a preference for America’s social services infrastructure to Mexico’s social services infrastructure).
To use the motel / hotel analogy, the asylum seekers are not entitled to stay in a Marriott when a Motel 6 will be safe for them.
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110%er [7057]
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Re: Border question: Is it morally wrong to "shut down the border" and stop people
Jun 4, 2024, 11:43 AM
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No.
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110%er [7057]
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Re: Border question: Is it morally wrong to "shut down the border" and stop people
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Jun 4, 2024, 11:45 AM
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I don't think we should completely shut down the border though. There has to be exceptions. I think we should just be very strict though with tight borders.
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110%er [8181]
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Re: Border question: Is it morally wrong to "shut down the border" and stop people
Jun 4, 2024, 4:47 PM
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In theory, a 100% sealed border should be the objective.
Practically, a complete barrier to prevent the influx of people who really want to come here is not feasible.
However … when setting objectives, a high level of excellence should be the objective. Not just cheap talk, but active planning to effectively seal the border and true diligence to make sure that the system remains effective.
It’s like taking a really tough class in college. For most people (me, for example), if I am not fully committed … immersed, so to speak … to getting everything right, then they won’t only not make an “A,” but they will flunk the class. An up-front intention to do a half-azzed job will result in failure.
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All-In [34809]
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Absolutely not***
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Jun 4, 2024, 12:16 PM
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110%er [9368]
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Do you have a right to lock your windows and such?
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Jun 4, 2024, 2:07 PM
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You want people to come in through the front door. If they're well-intentioned, then they're fully welcome, right? Same with the nation's borders. Come in through the proper channels and you're totally welcome. Sneak in through a window, and you're not. Simple as that.
Same as with almost anything - do it the right way and you'll have few to no problems. Do it "illegally" (or "undocumentaly") and you'll have issues.
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Orange Blooded [3327]
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Re: Border question: Is it morally wrong to "shut down the border" and stop people
Jun 6, 2024, 12:28 PM
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No. Next question.
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