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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Question for the baptists
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Apr 13, 2025, 12:57 PM
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If you take the Bible literally why do you use Welch’s grape juice and not real wine for lords supper?
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Growing up in the Baptist church and next door to our pastor, I was always told
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Apr 13, 2025, 1:57 PM
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that what Jesus and his followers drank wasn't fermented, and even though they called it "wine", it probably contained very little if any alcohol.
That was a convenient way to support the Baptist idea of alcohol being evil, and getting around what the bible actually said.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Growing up in the Baptist church and next door to our pastor, I was always told
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Apr 13, 2025, 4:57 PM
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Yea I’ve heard that one a lot. Noah, Lot, thousands of years earlier were getting drunk enough to have intercourse with family members after having “wine”. Not even sure where that excuse comes from.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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When you build your whole existence around a certain belief, then totally
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Apr 13, 2025, 6:16 PM
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commit to it, it's hard to let it go in the face of contrary or contradictory evidence, so you either live in denial, or do what you have to do to find a work-around. I spent many years doing that.
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Question for the baptists
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Apr 13, 2025, 3:02 PM
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I see it as a classic example of the tension between the Written Tradition and the Oral tradition, in any religion.
The words on the page never change, but the interpretation of those words do, often to account for changing social conditions. It's along the same lines as the Jewish dilemma of having to use Roman money with Caesar's face on it, or mixing with uncircumcised Greeks in the local gymnasium. Awkward confrontations either way.
Inside religion, meet outside world.
Here's an interesting article from Baptists themselves on their historical relationship with wine.
https://baptistnews.com/article/baptist-history-on-alcohol-not-totally-teetotaling/
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Question for the baptists
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Apr 13, 2025, 3:15 PM
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As a completely separate discussion, think how shocking Jesus's proposal at the Last Supper was for his fellow Jews. He probably got a few double-takes from the table.
Matthew 26:27–28
"And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant..."
vs.
Genesis 9:4
“But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.”
That's about as direct a violation of God's word as one can have. And keep in mind, Jesus hadn't D&R yet, so the new covenant was not in effect, unless it had nothing to do with his D&R.
What an incredibly awkward moment..."Drink your ah, what?"
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Question for the baptists
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Apr 13, 2025, 4:56 PM
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Ironically it’s Catholics who a lot of Protestants consider to be heretics that take that verse literally.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Are you promoting alcohol distribution to minors in church?
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Apr 13, 2025, 4:30 PM
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If you really want to discuss something worthwhile, let's talk about why you would want to see a church do that.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Are you promoting alcohol distribution to minors in church?
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Apr 13, 2025, 4:39 PM
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Do you think anyone under the age of 21 drank at the wedding at Cana?
There are studies that suggest that countries without an age restriction on alcohol have lower rates of alcoholism because they are taught to use it responsibly.
But those things are besides the point…
The Bible says the Israelites drank wine.
The Bible says Jesus drank wine.
The Bible says the early Christians drank wine.
I will not argue that alcohol is not dangerous and that you should not use caution, but if you choose to preach abstinence you are letting the world make that decision, not the Bible.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Re: Are you promoting alcohol distribution to minors in church?
Apr 13, 2025, 7:11 PM
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Oh, so you really just want to know if people actually consumed "real" alcohol when they drank wine? I believe they did, without question. As I have stated on this forum previously.
But, back to the original question, why do you care what a church drinks at communion? If you wish to share your concern that people preach abstinence, I get that. I don't get why it matters to anyone if its "real" wine or welches grape juice at communion.
Why not "debate" immersion versus sprinkling versus whether baptism by water even matters at all.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Are you promoting alcohol distribution to minors in church?
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Apr 13, 2025, 8:01 PM
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I just think it’s odd that the people who seem to take the Bible the most literally, or claim to, go against something that is so central to it.
Wine was a big part of Israelite, and therefore Jesus’ culture. Imagine a wedding running out of alcohol and the preacher making a beer run. That’s pretty much what he did.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Why do you think that is odd?
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Apr 13, 2025, 8:20 PM
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People have been "preaching" wrongly what the Bible says out of "blind faith" for-ever. Especially those who don't believe in the Bible.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Why do you think that is odd?
Apr 13, 2025, 8:31 PM
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I’m assuming you are a Baptist and you abstain. If not correct me.
Why is this odd? Because Jesus and his earliest followers partook.
Why is it not odd that you claim to be a follower of Jesus but you preach abstinence?
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CU Medallion [20078]
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OK, so let me clear a few things up...
Apr 13, 2025, 9:09 PM
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I am Baptist. I served in the US Navy. Saw and experienced plenty of moments with my fellow sailors. Before that, I grew up in an Alcoholic family... one that forced me to drink and smoke maryjane at 12 years of age. Neither of those were addicting to me. Cigarettes, however, that is another story. I was at three packs a day before I quit - 1986, while still on active duty. That's how bad it was hurting me.
I am also a Baptist pastor. I preach many things, but alcohol being grape juice is not one of those. I am quite frank and honest with the congregation. Just as I am here. I tell people when they are running from truth and issues they need to face. Like this truth for you, why don't you have a meeting with your regular pastor and talk with him in the same manner you speak with me? Perhaps you have, If so, Bravo. Keep it up as long as he can endure it. But, I don't believe that you have since it is much easier to sit behind the keyboard, unknown, with such hostility towards those who believe.
And, you don't know what I preach. Perhaps you should really find out before you make such accusations concerning me. You might like me even less.
There, now all my cards are on the table.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: OK, so let me clear a few things up...
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Apr 13, 2025, 10:40 PM
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I’m not sure why some of you take these things so personally. It’s just honest questions. It’s not an attack. Weird that some of you take it that way.
I’ve had this conversation plenty with people face to face, including pastors and deacons who judge others for doing something ironically that Jesus did himself.
I’ve literally read passages from the Bible out loud to these folks and had them look me straight in the eye and tell me it doesn’t say what I just read to them. Or that it wasn’t real wine. Or that my pastor said it means something else.
So before you accuse me of hiding behind a keyboard, maybe do some soul searching and try and figure out why an honest observation of what the Bible says bothers you so much.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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Re: OK, so let me clear a few things up...
Apr 13, 2025, 10:55 PM
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An honest observation of the Bible doesn't bother me at all.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Top TigerNet [32158]
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Re: Strictly for the purpose of holy communion, or The Lord's Supper, why not?
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Apr 13, 2025, 7:31 PM
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'Exceptions' were an eye-raiser even in my youth.
I remember first learning about the old 'Blue Laws' around 6 or 7, right about the time I was old enough to start picking up a few empty Coke bottles by the roadside for the deposit. In my small town I was accustomed to not even being able to buy a roll of toilet paper on Sunday.
We had a little wooden-floor general store right down from our house, which was always closed on Sunday, along with everything else in town. It had a HUGE candy aisle, but no soda, no candy, no ice cream; no nothing on Sunday. All the things that were important to a 6-year-old empty-bottle entrepreneur were cut off from me on Sunday.
So imagine my surprise when the family headed to Myrtle Beach for a vacation weekend, and EVERYTHING was open on Sunday. I specifically remember being shocked enough to ask my parents about it, who told me that Myrtle Beach was 'exempt' from the Blue Laws.
"Why, I asked?" No one seemed to know. "It just is" was the answer I got. Those are the kinds of moments that really open your eyes as a young kid.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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Again, asking why someone appears to pick and choose when to take
Apr 14, 2025, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to Are you promoting alcohol distribution to minors in church? ] |
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the bible literally, is a very fair and worthwhile question (wine vs. grape juice is just an example). But, you don't like it, so you misrepresent it and deflect by laughably suggesting that Big Dog is promoting distribution of alcohol to minors.
Sad.
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CU Medallion [20078]
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A half truth is still a lie
Apr 14, 2025, 11:13 AM
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but you don't even attempt to make your comments a "half-truth" most times. Like this statement I am responding to... yes, simply put, you are a liar.
Please, take that and twist it even more. Make it so I sound as though I speak hatefully. Make it sound as though I speak with contempt. Make it sound however you wish. However you do it, the truth of your intentions only escape the blind... you reach, but you never grasp.
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Orange Immortal [64356]
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I hope you find peace, HC.***
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Apr 14, 2025, 11:29 AM
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CU Medallion [20078]
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I pray this for you as well
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Apr 14, 2025, 12:01 PM
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nm
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Ultimate Tiger [34105]
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I prefer my emissions to be horse like***
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Apr 13, 2025, 6:45 PM
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Game Changer [1889]
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Re: Question for the baptists
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Apr 13, 2025, 6:45 PM
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drinking wine would certainly make church more tolorable
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: Question for the baptists
Apr 15, 2025, 4:39 PM
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I actually enjoy church. I love the fellowship. I just don’t like the legalism that goes along with it.
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Valley Legend [12477]
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Re: Question for the baptists
Apr 15, 2025, 9:22 AM
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cost
we are saving up to be presbyterian
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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There's a reason I never protest grapejuick rather than real wine.
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Apr 16, 2025, 3:31 AM
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Back when wifeof and I got married we attended a small Methodist church and became friends with the pastor and his wife. We were closer in age than any other couple in the assembly.
I asked Don if he wanted to go fishing Sunday after church. He gave me one of those deep thought looks and said no. I immediately responded with 'fishing on Sunday isn't a sin,' in my defense.
Don said 'Everybody don't know that.' It was a crude way, my way, of explaining 1 Corinthians 8:
"1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."
I know, 13 whole verses about eating meat offered as sacrifice to idols and Don put in in one short sentence with a clarifying look for exclamation.
Drinking alcohol never made a man a better man. Never did drinking bond a family or repair a broken home. There's no harm in avoiding alcohol so going along with people who believe drinking is sinful is not going to disrupt my fellowship with God and I learned that from His own Word.
Arguing about it does not edify us.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: There's a reason I never protest grapejuick rather than real wine.
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Apr 16, 2025, 10:25 AM
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I get where you are coming from. My dad, a baptist preacher, would not let me cut the grass on sunday. Not that I wanted to anyway. I was allowed to go fishing though.
"Drinking alcohol never made a man a better man"
This statement is confusing though, especially coming from someone who seems to know the bible as well as you.
What about Psalm 104:15?
"and wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart."
Or what about Jesus turning water into wine? Or sitting around with the sinners drinking wine?
"The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [101827]
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The better wine was 'mixed.'
Apr 18, 2025, 6:44 AM
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The term is throughout the Bible. Mixing wine with water was one way of purifying water. They didn't have the local utilities company to do it for them. When Paul told Timothy to 'take a little wine for your stomach's sake,' he was speaking of wine as a form of ready medicine.
There's a radical difference between drinking wine with supper and chugging down a six pack during a ball game.
I'm taking a side on this other than siding with God's Word. I have no issue with your claim to know more than the hardshell Baptist. One set of grandparents were Baptist and the other 4 Square Pentecostals.
I agree only with the Bible. God has reconciled all the difference between those two sects of Christians in me. Drinking a beer won't send you to hell; anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant of the scripture and thereby ignorant of what God wants from us.
You've harped on this many times and many times I've stated my position on drinking. If you're drinking in the face of those who believe it's a sin then you've sinned for you have injured God's innocent. They are ignorant but that's no excuse for you to offend them. That's a sin.
I can tell you straight up, right now. You have to righteousness before God if the Blood of the Lamb has not been applied to your soul and God's Spirit has not birthed a new creature within you. Drinking or not won't change that one way or the other.
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Dynasty Maker [3484]
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Re: The better wine was 'mixed.'
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Apr 18, 2025, 11:14 AM
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I guess for me it’s the hypocrisy with letting some things slide and others not. For some reason it’s ok to go against the Bible but then in other instances it’s not.
Homosexuality for example. Christians have no problem telling them they are going against gods word. Let’s be consistent.
I’m still curious why you would say alcohol never made a man better. What does it mean that wine “makes glad the heart of man” and why did Jesus partake?
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