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Letterman [271]
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DW4 Ring of Honor
Aug 4, 2022, 6:07 PM
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Sucks but assuming this is out of the question now?
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Oculus Spirit [41615]
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yes***
Aug 4, 2022, 6:08 PM
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Dynasty Maker [3450]
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Re: DW4 Ring of Honor
Aug 4, 2022, 6:18 PM
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Based on our current cultural norms. However, lets be honest, our culture today accepts (even celebrates in some cases) behavior that would have been absolutely unacceptable 20yrs ago. No way we can predict what will be accepted 20 or 30yrs down the road. There could be a successful campaign in the future to add Deshaun but probably it will depend on how he changes his life from here on out. Dabo made public comments earlier this year that seemed to indicate he felt Deshaun was making those changes and getting the help he needs.
If he’s still running with the #### stars and girlfriends that are flipping the bird to the camera then he’s still got a ways to go.
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110%er [6166]
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No way he’s ever considered now. And that’s fine.
Aug 4, 2022, 6:21 PM
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Before recent events, he was a slam dunk, but everything has changed.
And I’m one who thinks he’s been punished enough already.
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CU Guru [1538]
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He does not belong in the ROH
Aug 4, 2022, 7:29 PM
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He would have likely been in it but not after what he has done.
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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What, exactly, has he done?***
Aug 4, 2022, 9:33 PM
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Campus Hero [13766]
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Been a dishonorable creep?***
Aug 4, 2022, 10:05 PM
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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Maybe. What exactly do you mean? Be specific.***
Aug 4, 2022, 11:52 PM
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Paw Master [16769]
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66 women(that we know of) in 17 months is treading into
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Aug 5, 2022, 12:26 AM
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creep territory, whether you want to admit it or not...Have you not kept up with the case?
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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Yes.
Aug 5, 2022, 6:46 AM
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That's what I think too, but that's based on connecting dots and making assumptions. I've said from the very start of this that these women were prostitutes. However, that has never been publicly established or acknowledged. My point is, for any otherwise deserving player to be denied such an honor, the reasons why should be made clear, and allegations and assumptions are insufficient. If DW is a whoremonger or a serial sex offender, then let's say so and ban him. If he's not, then he should be in. If we aren't sure, he should be in - innocent until proven guilty in America.
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Recruit [97]
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Re: Yes.
Aug 5, 2022, 8:15 AM
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By your logic he either visited 66 prostitutes or sexually harassed 25 out of 66 masseuses… neither one deserves the ring of honor, if you read what it takes to get in it’s on the field play and off the field character (like the Heisman). This thread asked if he will get in…. The answer is and should always be no, regardless of the truth, because any of the possible truths in his situation are not deserving.
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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You left out a possibility, the one which he maintains:
Aug 5, 2022, 9:09 AM
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He visited 66 massage therapists, and sexually harassed or assaulted none of them.
If that is what happened, then he still deserves to be in. So far, nobody has proven otherwise. That's my point. None of the articles or documents I can find refer to the women as prostitutes, so claiming they are prostitutes is just speculation; can't keep him out on those grounds. 2 Grand juries have declined to charge him with any crimes after reviewing the evidence and interviewing witnesses, and there is no other solid evidence aside from the accusations, and he has consistently denied it, so that can't be used to keep him out.
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Recruit [97]
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Re: You left out a possibility, the one which he maintains:
Aug 5, 2022, 9:27 AM
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He’s already admitted and his lawyer he had sex with some of them consensually and soliciting prostitution. The judge also found him guilty of unwanted sexual advances. You need to read all the depositions, discovery papers and judges findings documents. There is no scenario left where he deserves to be in the ROH. None of this condemns him in life, but he’s not worthy of the ROH.
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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If he admitted to soliciting prostitutes, I don't think that
Aug 5, 2022, 10:08 AM
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should necessarily exclude him from the ROH. I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't be the first ROH member to have done that. I think that's entirely understandable and forgivable. However, I'd like to see where he admitted that, if you could provide a link. I have searched it and find nothing. Same with a judge finding him guilty of unwanted sexual advances. Please provide a link.
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110%er [6166]
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No judge has found him “guilty” of anything. The judge in
Aug 5, 2022, 10:48 AM
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question simply ruled that the allegations were sufficient cause for imposing a 6-game suspension.
Frankly, the allegations themselves are pretty damning. They don’t rise to the level of criminal activity as the grand juries have rightly ruled, but when giving consideration for entry into The Clemson Ring of Honor, there is no place for a fellow who put himself in a position to be the subject of these allegations.
Fair or not, Deshaun Watson will never be a member of the Clemson Ring of Honor. He has no one to blame but himself.
The threshold is very high ... as it should be. He’s out ...
He will however probably come back to the game and distinguish himself on the field. He will nave to be satisfied with huge sums of money and on-field performance related achievements.
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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If by "put himself in position to be the subject of these
Aug 5, 2022, 11:08 AM
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allegations" you mean visiting a lot of massage therapists and having consensual sex with some of them, I guess he's guilty of that. I just don't agree that that's a disqualifier, but that's entirely a matter of opinion.
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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Especially when we have current ROH members who have
Aug 5, 2022, 11:21 AM
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publicly admitted to less than honorable things.
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Paw Master [16769]
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Who? Give me an apples to apples comparison to this complete
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Aug 5, 2022, 12:07 PM
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sh1tshow
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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What exactly has DW admitted to, been convicted of, or been
Aug 5, 2022, 1:01 PM
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proven to have done? Answer that so I'll know what I'm comparing.
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Paw Master [16769]
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You're the one who said he was using prostitutes***
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Aug 5, 2022, 3:15 PM
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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In my opinion, these massage therapists were prostitutes.
Aug 5, 2022, 3:28 PM
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In my opinion. He should not be disqualified based on my opinion, or anybody's opinion. As far as I know, these women were legitimate massage therapists. That's what DW has maintained, and it hasn't been proven otherwise.
Now, IF it is discovered and proven that these women were indeed prostitutes, then good luck proving that he committed sexual assault. You could still argue that frequenting prostitutes disqualifies him, but a pretty good case could be made that it should not.
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110%er [6166]
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I believe he’s referring to Terry Kinard who had a similar
Aug 5, 2022, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to Who? Give me an apples to apples comparison to this complete ] |
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situation on a much smaller scale well after he had already been inducted into the Clemson RoH ...
If it had happened prior to induction, it could well have disqualified Terry Kinard as well.
The act of booting someone from the RoH for later actions in life is not something that appears to have any precedent nor any criteria.
So, not exactly apples to apples.
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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Tree Rollins admitted to accepting money and a new car to
Aug 5, 2022, 3:18 PM
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play basketball at Clemson. It was thousands of dollars, and it was all a blatant NCAA violation, "cheating", flat out wrong, and certainly dishonorable. It was known well before he was inducted into the ROH.
Says Rollins in the book: "This guy B.C. Inabinet was offering me everything. I got my '73 Monte Carlo thanks to him. And B.C. was flying my mom into many of our games the first couple seasons.... Things like that.... If someone asked me to put a figure on what I got from B.C. and the rest of the alums over my career at Clemson [1973-74 to 1976-77], I guess the sum totaled about $60,000. I'd say that figure is very close, 'cause I was gettin' about $14,000 a year. That's counting the money paid for my Monte Carlo, the clothing allowances, gas money and pocket money."
Asked after a recent NBA game if his statements in Locke's book were accurate, Rollins declared, "Everything I said is true." He offered further explanation for his own actions: "You see, I knew whatever college team signed me was going to get investigated. And I didn't go to the highest bidder, either. But if you ask if what I did was morally right, well, when you come from a poor background, you just have to take the money. I looked at basketball as a job. They were making money off me at Clemson. My mother was supporting four kids at home and we needed the money. Here in the pros everybody talks about what they got in college; they just don't tell the press."
$14,000.00 a year in 1973 would be almost $94,000.00 a year in 2022. This article was from 1982, and he was inducted into the ROH in 2017, after coming back to graduate in 2016.
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Paw Master [16769]
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That's the best you can come up with? A recruiting violation
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Aug 5, 2022, 3:21 PM
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Good Lord
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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Simple question: Do you think long term, ongoing cheating
Aug 5, 2022, 3:31 PM
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and knowingly committing NCAA violations sufficient to get your program put on probation is honorable and a sign of high character?
GOOD LORD!
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110%er [6166]
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Nah ... that comparison is a huge stretch. Probably no star
Aug 5, 2022, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to Tree Rollins admitted to accepting money and a new car to ] |
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player since the 1960s gains admittance under that sort of scrutiny.
And it’s been made a moot point through current rules anyway.
The Terry Kinard situation is a much stronger comparison.
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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Bullsh*t. I thought the ROH is about character and the bar
Aug 5, 2022, 3:34 PM
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was extremely high. But now, for the sake of this argument, being a blatant cheater sufficient to get your program put on probation is no big deal. You are slam full of sh*t.
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110%er [6166]
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Okay ... you win. Can argue any further with your logic.
Aug 5, 2022, 3:51 PM
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I’m out.
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Freshman [-74]
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All-TigerNet [10825]
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Well I didn’t know that was a crime anyway
Aug 8, 2022, 2:23 PM
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How are you supposed to know if it’s wanted or not unless you try amirite?
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Freshman [-74]
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Everything you said went out the window when you said,
Aug 5, 2022, 12:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yes. ] |
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"Sexually harrassed".
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Commissioner [1298]
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Re: Yes.
Aug 5, 2022, 2:48 PM
[ in reply to Yes. ] |
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ROH is not a criminal court and should not have the same burden of proof. Civil court has a lower burden of proof than criminal court. It's pretty simple; character matters to ROH and getting it wrong does not result in someone sitting in ol' sparky or being sued to oblivion.
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Game Day Hero [4483]
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It's in someone else's hands now***
Aug 4, 2022, 7:50 PM
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Ultimate Tiger [34676]
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I doubt he's still doing that after all of this.***
Aug 4, 2022, 10:07 PM
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Letterman [152]
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Letterman [152]
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Letterman [152]
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All-Conference [419]
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Re: DW4 Ring of Honor
Aug 4, 2022, 8:15 PM
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He will not be put in anytime soon but he will end up there…all you have to do is look at Kobe Bryant…like he literally was accused of ###### a 19 year old chic up the potutey while married, he then settled, stayed clean, by all accounts became a good family man and now after his death he is as revered a sports star as anyone…time changes lots of things assuming one changes and acts accordingly!!! Deshaun will be fine but it will take time and his future actions to determine that!!!
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Tiger Titan [46289]
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True, but a lot of the praise and adoration heaped on Kobe
Aug 5, 2022, 12:06 AM
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is because he tragically died.
Another thing in Kobe’s favor was that it was a one time deal, and came down to he said she said.
Deshaun’s issue includes at least 24 times of him possibly sexually assaulting women. That’s way different.
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Game Changer [1610]
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Re: True, but a lot of the praise and adoration heaped on Kobe
Aug 5, 2022, 8:31 AM
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You do not have to be a convicted criminal to be a bad person and not all convicted criminals are bad people. However, I dont think Ckemson University can risk its reputation with all of his characters questions. Unfortunately he did repeatedly put himself in bad situations and show poor judgement. There is a real life price for these actions and it is going to be a suspension, fine, and forfeiting his place in the Clemson ROH. We can continue to recognize DW4 as a great player, but it is a Ring of "Honor". Nothing about what he has done is honorable.
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All-TigerNet [10825]
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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Is he a serial sexual predator or not?
Aug 4, 2022, 8:58 PM
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I don't think that's been resolved, and I think that's kind of important.
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Game Changer [2013]
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Re: Is he a serial sexual predator or not?
Aug 4, 2022, 9:05 PM
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Yep. Too soon to know. Time will tell.
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110%er [3729]
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Re: Is he a serial sexual predator or not?
Aug 4, 2022, 9:19 PM
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Maybe consider it after 50 years!
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Paw Master [16769]
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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"points to"? I think the fact that he doesn't face a single
Aug 5, 2022, 12:26 AM
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charge after being accused of 66 very serious crimes points to something else altogether.
If DW actually did what he's been accused of, he is a very sick, dangerous individual. 66 women willing to take some money and let such a guy walk and potentially victimze other women doesn't say very much about their character, and certainly calls into question their motives and honesty.
Furthermore, if the NFL believes that DW did indeed sexually assault all of these women, then he should be banned for life. 66 (or any) sexual assaults are not acceptable on any level. On the other hand, if they believe he is innocent, and did not sexually assault any of these women, then what is the suspension for? Is it for appearing to maybe, kind of have been guilty? Is it for visiting prostitutes? If so, half of the league would have to be suspended. Is it saying that even though they don't believe he did it, they must take the accusations of women seriously, so he must be suspended on that basis? All of that is bullsh*t. We can't punish people for what we think may have happened; we have to decide one way or the other, and move forward with that.
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Paw Master [16769]
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You can keep making excuses for him if you want to, but I'm
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Aug 5, 2022, 12:31 AM
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not buying it...I have yet to hear anybody explain why he needed 66 different therapists in a 17 month period...This is Michael Jackson territory...He wasn't indicted either
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Heisman Winner [78273]
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He likes happy endings
Aug 5, 2022, 12:36 AM
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from prostitutes disguised as massage therapists. It seems pretty cut and dry.
He needs to get some help with that and move on.
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Paw Master [16769]
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I honestly hope that's all it was, but that alone is enough
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Aug 5, 2022, 12:44 AM
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to keep him out of the ROH
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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Point me to the article(s) that confirm that these women
Aug 5, 2022, 6:35 AM
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were prostitutes, and that DW was seeing them for that purpose.
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Paw Master [16769]
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You called them prostitutes in this thread, that's your
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Aug 5, 2022, 11:57 AM
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best case scenario...Can you give me a legitimate reason why he saw 66 different therapists that we know of in a 68 week period?
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Freshman [-74]
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Paw Master [16769]
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No it hasn't...the NYT reporter unearthed another 20 or so
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Aug 5, 2022, 3:17 PM
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therapists...The number was in the 40s before that
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110%er [6166]
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“Unearthing” more “Therapists” is not going to change things
Aug 5, 2022, 3:49 PM
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The existing allegations are enough. The grand juries have weighed in on criminal charges. And the civil courts have given those with grievances their payoff. There may be further payoffs.
The NFL has acted with sufficient righteous indignation. The players union has countered with their own.
All that’s left is for Deshaun Watson to serve his suspension and get on with his NFL career.
If he’s good enough on the field, all this will gradually fade away. It will never totally be erased and probably shouldn’t be, but success will dull the memories of football fans.
Deshaun can still have a great career and can have a good life too.
He’s just got a lot of work ahead of him.
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Orange Blooded [2992]
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Freshman [-74]
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He likes women, obviously.
Aug 5, 2022, 12:57 PM
[ in reply to You can keep making excuses for him if you want to, but I'm ] |
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That's not a crime and requires no explanation to you. Nothing at all like Michael Jackson and children. You keep swinging but you keep missing. It's far if you have a moral problem with lots of women, but that doesn't constitute a crime.
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Freshman [-74]
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Game Day Hero [4181]
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Re: DW4 Ring of Honor
Aug 4, 2022, 9:43 PM
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Never would I have ever thought this would be a question....
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Tiger Titan [46289]
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I love Deshaun. He absolutely deserves it based on his play on the field
Aug 5, 2022, 12:03 AM
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as well as how he seemed to conduct himself while at Clemson.
If we base ROH on that, I think he should be in for sure.
But unfortunately, it’s about more than that and his conduct as a pro almost definitely eliminates him.
The only hope is that with the passage of time, he does a lot of good and that overshadows the legal mess he is currently dealing with.
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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If he did not sexually assault any of those women, would
Aug 5, 2022, 12:29 AM
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he still be disqualified from the ROH? If yes, why?
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Paw Master [16769]
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Because it's the Ring of Honor, not the Ring of Whoremongers
Aug 5, 2022, 12:34 AM
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it would be a disservice to Clemson and ALL the other inductees...I mean that's your best case scenario right? That he was just flying in ###### left and right? Is that Honorable?
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Paw Master [16769]
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So whoremonger floats but w-h-o-r-e doesn't?
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Aug 5, 2022, 12:35 AM
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the More you Know
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Orange Immortal [61270]
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I totally get that, if that's what occurred, and I believe
Aug 5, 2022, 6:32 AM
[ in reply to Because it's the Ring of Honor, not the Ring of Whoremongers ] |
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that's the most likely scenario. These women were prostitutes, and DW was enlisting their services. I definitely don't find that honorable. But, as far as I know, it has never been officialy established that these women were prostitutes, but rather it has been maitained that they were legitimate massage therapists. I'm not talking about what you and I may believe or "know", but what has been publicly established and acknowledged. Is Clemson University's official position going to be based on such an unspoken, unproven belief? Is Clemson going to deny one of it's otherwise most deserving athletes of this honor because of unproven allegations? Allegations that the criminal justice system has rejected and DW has consistently denied? Furthermore, are we certain that no other current ROH member has ever visited a prostitute?
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All-TigerNet [10572]
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Is prostitution legal in Texas ?
Aug 5, 2022, 11:30 AM
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Just wondering but not for myself
Message was edited by: under11par®
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Rival Killer [2957]
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Re: Is prostitution legal in Texas ?
Aug 5, 2022, 12:39 PM
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That’s a great question. Having lived in Houston for over 10 years I can tell you there are “massage” parlors all over the city. They’re not hidden and since there is no zoning in Houston they’re practically in every neighborhood. Technically, they are not legal but the only time it’s ever really enforced is prior to an election or if there’s a big convention coming to town.
Their purpose is definitely not a legitimate massage. This is the reason I find this whole business to be ridiculous. How could you say something to someone whose job is to provide sex that was inappropriate? This is all a lawyer’s folly who thought there would be big bucks for him in the end. At least that part does not seem to have happened.
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All-Conference [419]
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Paw Master [16769]
TigerPulse: 91%
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Good Lord, is there another ROH inductee that was involved
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Aug 5, 2022, 12:06 PM
[ in reply to I totally get that, if that's what occurred, and I believe ] |
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in a year and a half scandal involving almost 6 dozen women? This has been an utter ######## and he has lost his benefit of the doubt...You can't sully the ROH, it wouldn't be HONORABLE and that is the one of the main criteria
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Freshman [-74]
TigerPulse: 66%
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Again, regardless of how many women he saw..
Aug 5, 2022, 1:05 PM
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"Honorable" isn't a word that can be used here.
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Dynasty Maker [3267]
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Agree with you for the most part...
Aug 5, 2022, 12:10 PM
[ in reply to I love Deshaun. He absolutely deserves it based on his play on the field ] |
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Ring of Honor is the highest Football honor Clemson has. Prior to this issue, DW4 checked all of the boxes. However, even without it, it was going to be another 10-15 years before he was considered (most people in the ROH were put there 18-20+ years after they played). Now I think it will be 15-20 years before he is considered. At that point - IF he has returned his reputation to being clean/honorable/etc. and not had additional incidents - then he will have a shot. Unfortunately his shot is better if we don't win any more championships in the next 15-20 years, so there's a part of me that's ok with his chances being reduced by us winning more championships.
The next sure-thing ROH inductee is CJ Spiller. Among those possible before him are Keith Adams, Gaines Adams, Kyle Young, Tye Hill, and Anthony Simmons. There is definitely a case for a couple of these, but they'll all probably be HOF without ROH.
After CJ comes several that are close to a sure thing:
Vic Beasley, Christian Wilkins, Dexter Lawrence, and Clelin Ferell are extremely strong contenders. Wilkins is probably a lock at this point and the other 3 are getting very close to that.
Travis Etienne, Trevor Lawrence, and Isaiah Simmons all will be extremely strong contenders. Hard to think that Etienne and Lawrence won't be eventual sure-things.
Others that have a shot: Sammy Watkins, Mitch Hyatt, DaQuan Bowers, Mike Williams
I excluded a few standouts that I'm pretty sure don't have Clemson degrees, but I may be wrong on them. There also could be a couple above that don't have degrees and are thus ineligible.
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Tiger Spirit [9853]
TigerPulse: 94%
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Re: DW4 Ring of Honor
Aug 5, 2022, 7:28 AM
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Nothing is out of the question but is far less likely than it was three years ago
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Valley Protector [1477]
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Re: DW4 Ring of Honor
Aug 5, 2022, 7:29 AM
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Part of criteria is post-graduate enhancement of Clemson reputation - not exact wording but something to that effect.
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Dynasty Maker [3450]
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Re: DW4 Ring of Honor
Aug 5, 2022, 11:33 AM
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I predict Coach Swinney will have a role to play to get opinion to swayed towards voting him in 20yrs down the road. Of course, that’s assuming he rehab’s his character in ways visible to the public over the long haul and Dabo remains convinced.
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Rival Killer [2957]
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This may all be moot…
Aug 5, 2022, 1:34 PM
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It looks like all the members of teams that have won national championships were inducted. No reason to think the 2017 and 2019 football teams would not be.
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110%er [6166]
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Say what ... ? Not sure what you mean by “All Members”
Aug 5, 2022, 3:39 PM
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Only a couple of the guys from the 1981 team are in the Ring of Honor presently. All members of the 1981 squad are definitely not in the RoH ... nor even in the HOF.
The Ring of Honor is a very small and select group of what are considered the best of the best in many different facets of their college, professional, and personal lives.
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Dynasty Maker [3450]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Say what ... ? Not sure what you mean by “All Members”
Aug 5, 2022, 7:21 PM
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Only a couple of the guys from the 1981 team are in the Ring of Honor presently. All members of the 1981 squad are definitely not in the RoH ... nor even in the HOF.
The Ring of Honor is a very small and select group of what are considered the best of the best in many different facets of their college, professional, and personal lives.
Also, if I recall right, the player has to have an All American honor from one of the recognized organizations. This was a big deal, because Trevor didn’t have that until he picked up a 3rd team honor late in the awards season process.
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Rival Killer [2957]
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Rival Killer [2957]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Yes they are!
Aug 8, 2022, 8:32 PM
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Sorry I left out the 1987 men’s soccer team.
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National Champion [7482]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Greatest football player in Clemson Football history
Aug 8, 2022, 2:35 PM
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its gonna be tough to not include him in the ROH. I would say his status in the ROH is "TBD." Keep in mind we don't know how he responds to this kinda adversity. Also they're not voting him in or out tomorrow.
He seems like the kind of guy to make amends and right his wrongs. But he can't do anything at the moment b/c of all the static around the subject. In my opinion he is guilty of bad judgment and got too full of himself as a guy in his mid 20's. Looking for women and trying to get laid was his problem. Like most guys his age in the NFL. This was a very dumb way to go about it.
I feel like he's going to learn alot from this and totally rectify this into something positive at some point. But it won't be overnight. Its the bottom of the valley right now. But i'm not counting out deshuan redeeming himself in the future.
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