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TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
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TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 7:00 AM
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Game Changer [1652]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 7:12 AM
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I would be really interested in a breakdown of run vs pass on second down. Against NC State, we had several drives where we ran it every second down and State seemed ready for it. If we have been run-heavy, that leaves a lot of opportunities to shake it up and break tendencies when needed.
Go Tigers!
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All-Pro [760]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 7:36 AM
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I noticed the exact same thing and wondered about pass vs run on second down. It seems we run the ball 10 times out of 10 on second down after an incompletion on first.
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All-In [10300]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 7:44 AM
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Against NC State the OL didn't pass block well enough to be able to rely upon passing to get it done.
Instead, we ran it and ran it had hoped that our defense was good enough to hold off NC State.
This strategy worked for us.
Against BC, their pass rushers were no where near as good as NC State's. That's a big reason why DJU was so successful. (Would have helped more if Ngata and B.Collins didn't drop the beautifully thrown downfield passes.)
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Clemson Icon [27518]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down ] |
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If you pass on second down in that situation you risk putting yourself in third and ten with an incompletion. The odds of getting 4-5 yards or at least something are better on a running play.
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All-Pro [760]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 10:22 AM
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In theory, sure. But not if the defense stacks 9 in the box.
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Trainer [44]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 12:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down ] |
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I had a dashboard I was working on in the offseason with all of last years plays. I was trying to figure out some tendencies since going with my gut, I usually knew what was about to happen. Just wanted to try to put some data behind it.
I went in and added in the games this season so far.
Against NC State, there were 27 total 2nd down plays. 17 of them were rushes, or 62.9%.
3 went for 0 yards
1 went for 1 yard
5 went for negative yards
So 8 out of 17 rushes went no where or backwards.
All the data came from collegefootballdata.com via their API.
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Top TigerNet [31580]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 4:55 PM
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He is waaaaay too predictable on 2nd down....defenses run blitz every, single time on 2nd down. There is an opportunity here for Street to change things up.
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All-Pro [760]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 5:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down ] |
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63% surprises me. Better than I thought. I thought it would be closer to 80%. But 63% still isn’t good and still supports what I “feel” like I’m seeing.
Thanks for posting! Very cool!
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CU Medallion [20719]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 12:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down ] |
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I don't know why we wouldn't go with more of the short, safe passes on 2nd down to shake up the trend. Hit a quick slant to the slot or WR or TE for 5-6 yards and if they break a tackle, even better. We definitely seem too predictable on 2nd down with all the runs.
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Scout Team [169]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 3:38 PM
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Or even just try a play action deep bomb once a game so they aren’t bring the LBs up every time. Can risk it as well as DJ is slinging it and as often as refs are throwing PI flags these days
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Campus Hero [13364]
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Call plays that are easier to execute.
Oct 11, 2022, 7:20 AM
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WR screens are extremely low percentage plays that require at least two people to perfect execute a block and the QB to perfectly execute a timed throw and the WR to perfectly execute making the catch and immediately making a guy miss.
The problem isn’t the execution, it’s the plays that are called. You know what is much easier and has a higher percentage of success? Throw the ####### ball to a TE on a short pass of some sort. Pop pass, TE hook, TE out. That’s worth about five yards and takes two seconds of pass protection.
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Paw Master [16111]
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Re: Call plays that are easier to execute.
Oct 11, 2022, 7:30 AM
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I concur. Some teams can execute a screen pass for a nice gain; we are not one of those teams.
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Campus Hero [13364]
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A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work***
Oct 11, 2022, 7:35 AM
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All-In [10300]
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Re: A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work***
Oct 11, 2022, 7:50 AM
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Our seeming addiction to the WR screen continues to surprise me.
You and C.Tom's observation rings true to me ... our success (i.e., 5+ yards of positive yardage after a WR screen) seems to be ~ 10%.
Not only are our WR screens largely ineffective, but the long pass out on the flat is too often close to being a pik-6 risk. Our WRs still don't block reliably enough for our 'receiver target' WR on the WR screen to be a safe risk when the pass is thrown.
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Paw Master [16745]
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Re: A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work***
Oct 11, 2022, 9:15 AM
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I think the definition of idiocy is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. If something is broken, fix it. If it can’t be fixed do something else. Bout time to fix or change the calls.
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Athletic Dir [1199]
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Re: A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work***
Oct 11, 2022, 5:10 PM
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Actually, its the definition of INSANITY
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110%er [6166]
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When we had the personnel, the WR screen was easy. But, as
Oct 11, 2022, 7:54 AM
[ in reply to A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work*** ] |
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as you say, it becomes a tough play to execute when the guys are not as equipped with the essential skills needed.
We haven’t had the necessary skill and haven’t made much out of the wide receiver screen in a few years now, but we still insist on trying.
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Campus Hero [13364]
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We never made it work that well. But, when we had Watson
Oct 11, 2022, 8:41 AM
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teams had to back off the LOS and couldn't cheat their SS up, and we had a little more success.
WR screen is just a bad play built off a bad premise. RB screen works because it looks like the RB missed a pass block, which they regularly do, lol.
Defenses are immediately tipped off to a WR screen by the WR not trying to get off the LOS. It's easy (unless the other team is just completely outmatched, in which case just throw normal passes)
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Paw Master [17093]
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The faster tempo and Artavis Scott were also crucial to it's
Oct 11, 2022, 2:07 PM
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success in gaining 5-7 yards seemingly every time we called it
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Offensive Star [314]
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Re: A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work***
Oct 11, 2022, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work*** ] |
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Our RB screen game is terrible. When was the last time we executed a hood rb screen?? We just don’t do it well. They should look at film from Andy Reid’s offenses. He’s the best screen game designer in football history why not copy those type screens. Imagine Mafah or Shipley with a caravan of big old ugliest in front of them?
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Game Day Hero [4392]
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Re: A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work***
Oct 11, 2022, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to A halfback screen, sure. Nobody consistently makes WR screens work*** ] |
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Hear me out please, then flame away. The WR screen can and IS extremely effective, however not when 90% of the offensive plays are withing 8ish yards of the line of scrimmage. When the box is loaded for runs or short plays, the defense is right there to blow up the play. When theire is an actual deep threat to take the top off, safeties have to back off or get cooked. We don't instill that fear at ALL anymore. Maybe it gets better, but right now they can play tight and fear not. Until the box clears out a bit, the WR will get little to no gain, no matter who gets it.
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Asst Coach [811]
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Re: Call plays that are easier to execute.
Oct 11, 2022, 8:03 AM
[ in reply to Call plays that are easier to execute. ] |
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CharlestonTom, you are so right. 95% of the time, The swing pass is a wasted down. It makes no sense to keep calling that play.
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Orange Immortal [68080]
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We don't know how to run WR screens...
Oct 11, 2022, 9:30 AM
[ in reply to Call plays that are easier to execute. ] |
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because the receivers don't block very well or at all, and that has been an going issue for a long time. It doesn't matter if it's a bubble screen, middle screen, slot screen, or a slip screen, the result is usually the same. Frankly, these are plays we should completely remove from the playbook and never run again.
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Campus Hero [13364]
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1 guy can't block 2. Blaming players is dumb.***
Oct 11, 2022, 9:31 AM
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Orange Immortal [68080]
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You can see that pre-snap...
Oct 11, 2022, 9:39 AM
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so change the friggin' play.
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Campus Hero [13364]
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I don't think they give our QBs permission for that.
Oct 11, 2022, 10:00 AM
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Could be wrong. But we have run into the teeth of press-man coverage with a cheating safety way too many times.
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Orange Immortal [68080]
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Completely agree...
Oct 11, 2022, 10:03 AM
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but the OC can see it (or at least should be able to see it) from the press box and signal in a different play.
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Valley Protector [1420]
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Game Day Hero [4437]
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Re: Call plays that are easier to execute.
Oct 11, 2022, 11:26 AM
[ in reply to Call plays that are easier to execute. ] |
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The screen slows down the blitz and sets up the downfield throws.
They would be successful for at least a few yards if our WRs could block at all.
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Paw Master [17093]
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Orange Phenom [14169]
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If we want to make our WR screen plays more successful
Oct 12, 2022, 7:25 AM
[ in reply to Call plays that are easier to execute. ] |
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we have got to run a "pump and go" to the WR on that setup every so often. I have yet to see us run a "pump and go" on the WR screen and as a result the DB's key off it and are charging full speed towards our screen WR the moment he turns toward the QB. If we would do a "pump and go" from our screen setup every so often the WR would run right past that charging DB and probably be wide open.
Until we do something to keep those opposing DB's honest they will continue to key on our WR screen where they are typically on top of the screen WR the moment the ball arrives.
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Ultimate Clemson Legend [98428]
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When someone complains about our new coordinators...
Oct 11, 2022, 7:24 AM
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they are showing much disregard and undue disrespect to our head coach who hired, trained and promoted these men.
One thing the football world has discovered over the past decade is you don't disregard Dabo. If you do you will be embarrassed for looking like a fool. When you disrespect him you disrespect virtue and class.
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All-In [10300]
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Re: When someone complains about our new coordinators...
Oct 11, 2022, 7:53 AM
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No reasonable person can argue with that point of view.
We'll see if the WR screen continues to be a staple of the O's arsenal; if the WR blocking gets better then we'll see more success and reduce the risk of a pik-6.
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Freshman [3]
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Re: When someone complains about our new coordinators...
Oct 11, 2022, 8:38 AM
[ in reply to When someone complains about our new coordinators... ] |
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And none of that will gain more than the measely 2 yards, if we’re lucky, on a WR screen. Criticizing okay calling isn’t criticizing the man. Grow up
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TigerNet Immortal [168487]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 7:29 AM
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He sort of hints at what I have felt. We do more stopping of our O than the other teams D does. Missed assignments and poor execution. Willimas' two red zone plays show this. Can't or doesn't get around a guy he has faked to the ground and on the reverse he doesn't go wide when he has a blocker but runs into his blocker preventing a nice gain. Not picking on him but two prominent examples of messing up on O
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Campus Hero [13364]
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I still don’t buy the argument of “missed assignments and poor execution”
Oct 11, 2022, 7:34 AM
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Not when Tommy Bowden coached, and not now, lol
First, the coach is responsible for execution. They coach the players, it is their job.
Second, any play could work with perfect execution. We could run a triple reverse pass to a WR in the flat who pitches the ball back to a sweeping halfback down the sidelines and that would work id everyone did their assignment and executed perfectly.
Last: it is clear to see that we run too much lateral nonsense like WR screens and other plays that just don’t work out very often, for anyone.
That sentiment is blame deflection, and always will be.
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All-TigerNet [5701]
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Re: I still don’t buy the argument of “missed assignments and poor execution”
Oct 11, 2022, 10:37 AM
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It used to be that we used those WR screens to wear out the D so they'd be gassed later in the game.
While that still may be true, our lack of HUNH now appears that it's almost like we're willing to throw away a few downs in order to widen box to open up the run, option or middle of the field passing attempts.
There's something missing in our O scheme - not sure what it is but Sarkisian's O scheme and play-calling looked very good Saturday.
Maybe instead of 2 WRs to the field and 1 in the slot, we should try 2 in the slot and 1 on the boundary. Then we could run TE screens/slants to the middle of the field..... maybe very effectively.
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Commissioner [1294]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 7:48 AM
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How about balls thrown off target...too hard...into double coverage...and just staring down a wr before you throw the ball. Why does clemson not have one of our long TENDS not stretching the field or just working the middle to occupy a lb and safety...don't think many can cover Davis or Jake one on one...wear out those tight ends in every game...once in a blue moon dj needs to take a little juice off the ball!
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All-In [10300]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 7:56 AM
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If your perspective is from the 2021 season, then sure, there were frequent inaccurate throws from DJU.
But this year, his accuracy has been outstanding.
And as far as his fastball, don't tell me that the WRs can't catch those. For the RBs ... sure ... DJU's hot passes may be a bit much for them. But for the WRs, just can't buy the 'hot pass = frequent drops' argument.
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110%er [6166]
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Most of the drops this year have been perfect throws by DJ
Oct 11, 2022, 8:37 AM
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He shown excellent touch with very few passes being the “too hot to handle” variety. He’s given our guys numerous chances to come up with great catches
The WRs we have now seem to lack concentration and the ability/desire to fight for the contested ball.
They’re getting better it seems, but still lacking. Great catches are still rare, and even routine catches remain an adventure.
Drops on wide open, sure TDs are potential game/season changers.
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Paw Master [17093]
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The drops on routine catches is on their position coach and
Oct 11, 2022, 2:13 PM
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if it doesn't improve he needs to be re-evaluated at the end of the season
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Athletic Dir [1153]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 8:30 AM
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Attack down field more often than using those nickel and dime plays at the line of scrimmage. Receiver screens, etc., which for the most part are ending up in little or negative yards. And don't use DJ as a runner on that called QB run up the middle. It usually yields the same results as the bubble play. He needs to keep it more on the read option around the corner. DJ makes better runs when the pocket breaks down and the D is spread out. Seems like more counter plays on 2nd down would help the running game. For the most part I think Streeter is calling a good game but it seems he has one call on many drives that ruin the whole scheme. I agree that execution would fix a lot.
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Campus Hero [13488]
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good input by so many with zero experience coaching football
Oct 11, 2022, 8:45 AM
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I hope Streeter reads this! /s
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Dynasty Maker [3248]
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Tempo , tempo, tempo get the plays in quicker!!***
Oct 11, 2022, 8:54 AM
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Varsity [137]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 9:25 AM
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I have huge Arms in my QB chair!!!! But the glaring thing that I have noticed is that the WR and RB screen seem to break down because the pass from DJU is kinda behind the receiver so he has to catch it and do a 180 to start up field. I’m no Expert, far from it, but it seems if the pass is in front of the receiver he is already headed in the right direction!!!
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Standout [211]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 9:43 AM
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He has been MUCH better about this in the past few games.
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Standout [211]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 9:41 AM
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So, to paraphrase Streeter.
“We’re not very good at catching or executing, but that’s okay.”
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Varsity [134]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 10:02 AM
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Collins had 2 plays in the first drive that bothered me. On his first catch he didn't have anyone within 5 yards of him and stepped out of bounds. After watching the play several times it looks like he did it to keep from getting tackled. The touchdown drop was just lack of focus.
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Game Changer [1699]
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Re: TNET: Streeter breaks down wide receiver drops, issues on second down
Oct 11, 2022, 10:33 AM
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If you look at this season, if we don't run up the middle on 1st down, we will on 2nd. There's not a rule that's says we have to. I get keeping them honest but this isn't the NFL. Open it up some, maybe set up the run by throwing 1st sometimes works,js. Tempo would be nice.
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Tiger Spirit [9606]
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Play calling suggestion: you aren't required to hand it to
Oct 11, 2022, 2:23 PM
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Shipley up the middle on every first down play.
But that's just me
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Heisman Winner [80779]
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I personally don't like the idea of targeting only 4 yards a
Oct 11, 2022, 5:18 PM
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down. If that is what you settle for, you can't have even a single play miss the goal, or you are punting. Youngun's won't remember, but that is why there were literal SCREAMS happening with Saint Danniford's "three yards and a cloud of dust" offense. 'Cause, 3+3+3 = 9, not 10, dontcha know?
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Team Captain [472]
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Re: I personally don't like the idea of targeting only 4 yards a
Oct 12, 2022, 6:59 AM
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I remember the Danny years. Up the middle, up the middle, drop the pass punt.
Our play calling is way too predictable. I have never played the game but I can tell you what play we will run about 65% of the time. If I can then what can someone who knows the game do.
Truth is DJ would have a completion percentage over 70 if the WRs could catch. We would have several more TDs as well
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Orange Phenom [14169]
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I find it a bit odd that Streeter says he's not concerned
Oct 12, 2022, 7:42 AM
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with WR drops. It's OK to offer some praise and say we are getting better by making fewer drops each week.... But at the rate we are still seeing WR's drop catchable balls (usually several times per game) I would think that it warrants some concern because in a tight game those dropped passes can be the difference between winning and losing.
I understand not giving our players a psychosis out of WR drops but I certainly hope the coaches don't gloss over WR drops as "ho-hum" either...
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