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YOUR BALANCE
X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?
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X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 26, 2021, 12:55 PM

Not so much of a how Clemson offense operates question; but rather in general. Has up tempo offenses seen it's last days?

The way I see: up tempo at first was so new DC's didn't know how to handle it. Along with the spread it was nuts.
You had to cover a lot of space with defenses designed to stop the run. Which meant heavier and slower bodies more effective between the tackles. Not running sideline to sideline.
Think Chip Kelly at Oregon.
It wasn't like the Ducks were getting great recruiting classes during his time. But, he didn't have to have a dominant OL. He just needed fast players at WR and RB and a DT QB.

***More of a Clemson note*** I believe we enjoyed the benefits of the HUNH offensive philosophy as well. We didn't have to have super talented OL because the tempo often neutralized a superior DL. Think all the comments from the Alabama players after the 2016 National Championship and how exhausted they were!
With rule changes allowing the ref to hold up the play if the offense subs - it seems like the up tempo benefit has lost some of it's luster! Agree?

I also think DC's have now adjusted to 1st down being the most critical against tempo offenses. They put lighter faster players on the field that can cover more ground. These players are also able to be effective for multiple plays before needing to get subbed out.
A team that isn't deep will still likely feel the effects of an UP Tempo O because they lack front seven depth! Teams with depth - can play you more straight up now with how the refs hold up the play.

Baylor and Art Briles would send a couple of WR's deep and just rotate WR's - which basically meant - you could not commit safeties to the box. Baylor was up there with Army/Navy and Ga. Southern in rushing while he was there. But, the offense was allowed to sub players right away. Now, that same play happens and instead of another play with a couple of fresh sprinters at WR - the play is being held up! Now your CB can get a sub in or your DT or LB can get a sub in as well.
***I still like the Briles philosophy of always have a deep route in every play because defenses can't commit that safety! And every now and then hit some or at least throw it and you dictate the coverage. But, that's for another day.

What do the X and O folks think?

***For Clemson - I think we need to take advantage of the brand and start getting more dominant OL. Because we can't rely on tempo anymore to wear down the defensive front so we can get running and passing lanes. Now, let's say you run tempo and have a dominant OL - you get 19 LSU and 20 Alabama!

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No....


Jan 26, 2021, 1:25 PM

I think there have been tweaks and adjustments of how and when it's run over the course of a game, but I don't think it's "run it's course". It's still very effective. Teams may not run it all game every play, but there is a strategic place and use for HUNH in games still. Offense rules College football and there are really no signs of the defense "catching up" like some expected or as history typically shows.

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Re: No....


Jan 26, 2021, 8:49 PM

My thoughts as well.

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It works decently against Venables


Jan 26, 2021, 1:28 PM

because he doesn't have time to steal the signals.

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Re: X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 26, 2021, 1:51 PM

Ohio State used tempo in the CFP against us and it worked pretty well as we were caught flat footed multiple times... so the argument kind of self destructs right there doesn't it?

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Re: X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 26, 2021, 8:04 PM

JPF16® said:

Ohio State used tempo in the CFP against us and it worked pretty well as we were caught flat footed multiple times... so the argument kind of self destructs right there doesn't it?




Not really!
Did they win the Championship?

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Re: X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 26, 2021, 2:08 PM

Sirius qwestion...does Clemsons offense still have a goal of +80 plays per game? I remember that was a huge part of the offensive makeover and philosophy moving forward. I wonder how much emphasis is put on hitting that mark now?

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No, now our goal seems to be playing 80 players***


Jan 26, 2021, 2:34 PM



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Re: No, now our goal seems to be playing 80 players***


Jan 27, 2021, 5:22 AM

Ha, that made me laugh because it seemed so true. I think we have gone overboard trying to play too many players and losing the focus of getting teams to gel. I think that exact thing hurts the cohesiveness of the OL to make progress playing with the #1 players, especially when still learning

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Re: X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 26, 2021, 2:28 PM

I think your point on if a team SOLELY focused on HUHN is out of date and i would say yes. Back in the Chad days, we had the goal of 80+ plays a game and i don't think we see that as much anymore.

It has a time in a place, but seems to be just a slightly different aspect than a 2 minute offense. Elite teams aren't running it really full games anymore.

So football is becoming more like basketball where you mix and match your tempo to the play of the game. OSU did it perfectly against us. I do think this is one area that we did struggle a bit with TL in, in that, we never seemed to have the same up tempo production that we did with DW4. He rarely rushed the line and the play like we used to and i thing Big Ocho will change that.

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Did you watch the Sugar Bowl? We just got blown out by


Jan 26, 2021, 2:33 PM

an uptempo offense

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I think that if


Jan 26, 2021, 2:44 PM

IYou have a BIG time offensive line there isn’t much you can’t do.... regardless of the tempo.

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It didn't help Bama in 2016 when we ran 100 plays***


Jan 26, 2021, 6:41 PM



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Re: It didn't help Bama in 2016 when we ran 100 plays***


Jan 26, 2021, 8:19 PM

No. It helped us. I don't think our OL was superior to their DL. I think we just wore them out and neutralized their advantage.

I get all the Ohio State did it to Clemson and a BV defense. But, OSU "let's all be honest" had likely dedicated a great deal of time to just learning Clemson tendencies. They had time. They had motivation. They had rested players. No excuse; they kicked our butts. But, if you are being completely honest - they wanted that game more than they wanted the championship! That made their season. Their whole season was a rematch with Clemson - they forgot to try and win a championship of all of college football.

The other thing I have to point out to all the folks talking OSU is this: OSU recruits athletic OL who can move well enough to play basketball(serious they look for this particular feature). They are all very highly rated dudes as well. We know they recruit skill players at a high level along with Alabama, Georgia, Florida and sometimes Texas A&M. We are in that mix of teams at the skill position - but not the OL.

If all else is equal I am suggesting: "then doesn't the advantage go to the team with the advantage in the trenches"?

Not just a Clemson question but for any team. If my WR group and your DB group are equals. My QB wit and recognition is on par with your MLB. OK. But, you have a DL that's just okay and my OL is superior - do I not win?

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OL Recruiting wasn't as big a deal; until it was


Jan 26, 2021, 8:34 PM

I hear everybody!

I thank everybody for their input - even some more critical post.

I just think people are either "FORGETTING WHY THE HUNH CAME ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE"!

H.S. coaches in a few parts of the world who felt they had superior skill players and felt they were superior coaches - were getting their butts whipped. They got beat because they would get to the playoffs and face a team that had a front seven they could not contend with! They couldn't block them and their QB was running for his life. The RB was hit and dropped many times before he even got started.

If only they could slow down that Defensive Front! Hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

End of games and teams are just moving the football. Why? Because those big boys up front got winded. Defenses were built much different then. More big run stuffing types. LB didn't have a ton of speed just enough to go sideline to sideline as he would mostly be tackling screens and filling gaps.

Intro the HUNH - now as the offensive player I have the advantage. I know where the play is going and you haven't had time to catch your breath. Oh, sorry, can't sub we are running a play. These coaches who started it forgot about how important 1st down success was to this offense. Get that first first down after the defense has burned a bunch of energy in futility to get to the QB. Then run another play. They burn even more energy - a few players are gassed but ok. Then you bam, get a 1st down and repeat the process! By the end of the 1st half the 3rd quarter their legs are gel and there is no pass rush. No getting off blocks. You can run your full offense without worrying about that ferocious DL.

But, rule changes now that allow some stoppage. When subs are made the defensive players are told to take their time. It's not their fault the offense subbed. Plus, you can alway pop off a helmet and have to get replaced. Or fake an injury. But more than that - defenses have adapted personnel and DC's have changed philosophy.

All things even! Football goes back as someone already said: "it goes back to where it has always been"! YOur OL and their ability to control the line of scrimmage.
If your RB is getting hit in the backfield. If your offense is constantly in 3rd and long - it just isn't a good recipe for success. The OL with no smoke and mirrors to help it out - has to be "plain dominant"! It can't rely on the DL getting tired or anything other than their ability to control things.

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OL Sets Tone For Entire Team!


Jan 26, 2021, 8:47 PM

Your OL sets the tone for the entire team. Have a more technical OL and your defense "learns to be more technical" to defeat it during practice. Have a physical OL and guess what?

You got it.

The DL and entire front seven have no choice but to learn to be more physical or risk getting a bloody nose every day in practice. Or risk coaches saying, if your own teammates are doing that what will the opponent do. Give me somebody who can get physical!
If those dudes don't set that tone - you will have a football team that isn't as physical. And to me - that's what I saw in the Sugar Bowl. A much hungrier team. A more physical team who came to play. It was won at the line of scrimmage.

OSU for example, had a very physical OL. Them last years LSU and 2020 Bama had both a physical OL and extremely good skill players. Some teams may have a physical OL but only one good WR(Wisconsin) but that can be shut down. A physical OL with a bunch of skill players means the defense has to cover basically "too much"! There is nothing to take away!

But, what if you have a team with all the skill in the world you should need at RB, QB and WR but a sub par non-physical OL? The answer is clear. You get us this past season where we were often in 3rd and long. If we didn't make some awesome play we were punting. It works against Wake Forrest or Syracuse - it won't work against teams with just as much skill and depth.

HUNH the Chad Morris way I believe is dead. As has been said, "the way it was used against us was proof" tempo still has a place. The reason Syracuse gave us trouble was the first insight into how teams can beat a BV defense. Don't give the man time.
It's still viable - with the right OL. Because sometimes you have to be able to just "mash your way to a first down"! You still have to get physical and it's still important to be low man and be able to control the line of scrimmage. It resonates across your entire football team for better or for worse!
100% reliance on it against deep talented teams is not likely to work anymore. Not unless your OL talent is equal to or superior to the DL.

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Re: OL Recruiting wasn't as big a deal; until it was


Jan 26, 2021, 9:03 PM [ in reply to OL Recruiting wasn't as big a deal; until it was ]

The whole reason for hurry up offense was because your offensive talent could not contend with the defensive talent. One of the Clemson coaches, not sure who, specifically said that once we had started recruiting higher level talent, it wasnt necessary anymore. Personally, anything that gives you an advantage/mismatch... use it

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Re: OL Recruiting wasn't as big a deal; until it was


Jan 26, 2021, 11:00 PM


The whole reason for hurry up offense was because your offensive talent could not contend with the defensive talent. One of the Clemson coaches, not sure who, specifically said that once we had started recruiting higher level talent, it wasnt necessary anymore. Personally, anything that gives you an advantage/mismatch... use it




As this relates to Clemson. I do not think we have recruited "across the board" well at the OL positions. So, the idea that we can afford to slow down is off the table! I think with Simpson, Hyatt, Ancrum and those dudes - we got some OL who were better than their star rating. We tried bringing in lower rated guys with the mindset - we can develop them into what we need. But, it just didn't work out. Or hasn't worked out yet. Not saying it won't or can't. We have outstanding coaches.
But, sometimes a kid has it and sometimes he doesn't.

At least a highly touted kid has some of the raw attributes. I am actually a poster who posted a bunch of stuff about the high number of 2 and 3 star OL(coming out of H.S.) in the NFL. So, I know high stars as a OL don't always mean NFL stardom or even getting drafted. Look no further than our own 5-Star Mitch Hyatt. He started 4 years and didn't get drafted - and was a 5 star. He fit our system and protected the blindside well.
We need more of that. Not maybe guys who are going to get drafted; but at least guys who will get an UDFA signing! Some of our current guys minus J. Carmen won't. Perhaps Mcfadden(guard not RT).
I don't know.
The 19 - LSU loss what I saw from those Tigers was an OL that enabled a very good QB and WR and RB group "to do what they do"!
The 20 Alabama squad - ditto.

All the skill in the world can't help you if your QB is on his back! Or if your RB is getting hit before he gets started. Or even if your QB isn't getting hit; he is being hurried and put in 3rd and long.

Mixed Tempo or fast - it is my opinion unless you have a dominant OL you need to go as fast as possible to neutralize the front seven of the defense. Maybe get them out of position on the back end. Otherwise, they can neutralize what you have going on. As someone said, if it's an advantage, take advantage!

Need to go fast - but also need to play with a ton of physicality! In my opinion during the Connor Shaw and Spurrier little run - Clemson had the better teams top to bottom - but u of sc was winning b/c they had the more physical OL. I thought that long 5 years taught the staff you had better be prepared to get physical or the teams with depth and talent on DL will beat you. No matter how talented your WR, RB and QB are. If the play is over right as it begins because of penetration - the play is dead. Now, your skill don't get an opportunity to affect the game!

I thought they insisted on them playing more physical because u of sc would be more physical. They learned it and matched that intensity "AT Practice". So gametime was a breeze when it rolled around. You have to have it. Give your skill guys a chance - if not with physical mentality and play then by tempo and finesse and technique. I prefer a bit of both - I thought that was the secret sauce that made Clemson one of if not the 1st "tempo offense" to win a National Title. Oregon didn't do it. Well, I take it back, Auburn did(beating another tempo team in Oregon). But, what did Auburn have? A physical phreak at QB and a physical big strong OL. Their RB and WR's were not bad either. But, that OL set the tone and they had tempo to keep the D off balance!

More physical on aisle 3 please! LOL!

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Re: X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 26, 2021, 2:40 PM

The HUNH scheme is just like any other scheme that has success...Its only as good as the OL will allow it to be...When you have a sh*tty OL...Your scheme will not be successful..

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It seems like we don't go as fast as we used to.


Jan 26, 2021, 3:08 PM

I don't know why, if it represents a change in coaching strategy or a concern that it doesn't fit our personnel as much.

Personally, I miss it. I thought we were at our best going up tempo, snapping the ball quickly. The last couple of years, we are much slower than we used to be.

Defenses still have trouble adjusting to up tempo, if our defense is any indication (e.g., Sugar Bowl against Ohio State).

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I agree. Wish we would snap it and catch teams changing


Jan 26, 2021, 10:40 PM

personnel. We go at a medium speed and they can swap in and out whoever they want. Our speed needs to go faster, which helps the offense or slower in order to let the defense rest more.

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Re: X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 26, 2021, 5:58 PM

That's a loaded question and synopsis there HillRock. Everyone jumped on it at first. It's even to the HS level. One reason you have to really recruit hard and imho has led to more misses in recruiting (not specific to Clemson at all). Because you look at atheletes that get a lot of numbers and hype because they're fast and the QB just has to throw up a ball... Not really learn football.

Now, this started translating to the college level. The p12 and the b12 jumped all over it because as you so rightly stated this led to a Boise or BYU being able to compete and be exciting. Fans craved the offense, sold a lot of tickets so it trickled up. Brilliant strategy and has changed football. But quite honestly, the NFL hated it...

(This is why I say no it's not run its course, but it did change and has change football). The pendulum is swinging the other way now because of the rule cha n he's. Also something you pointed out. Back to my point, the hunh was shrinking the talent pool for the NFL because kids weren't coming out of college ready for the NFL... So NFL started and still does want a farm system or a mini league where winning isn't the end game, developing talent is.

However, imo, what we've seen is the NFL tweak and adapt as how we have and Bama, LSU, OSU etc. Yes, you have to have the oline because these same teams realized you defeat it like CBV did, keep the QB on the run and they ain't got a chance at beating you unless you got a QB so good like TL that can throw into tight windows. Plus your WR have to learn route running and not just be fast and get behind the D.

Now, to counteract said hunh o's that do have good oline, we must have hybrid lbs like Simmons that can hit and cover. So yes, my point is it's NOT (true hunh) run its course but HAS changed FB.

Hope that makes sense. Wdik, I'm just an dumb blond grandma trying to keep up with you x and o guru's!

Great question and discussion. At all cost, we need to stop a NFL training league, that with likeness and portal will destroy lower level FB... Imho

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Re: X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 26, 2021, 6:22 PM

Meant to preface the post that money will drive the decision. Do you want to end up with Canadian football, or just a bunch of 7 on 7 camps where the team that has the ball last wins the game.

Think p12 and b12 knows that might get you to the CFP but not be competitive. Ticket sales... Money will drive it.

Chic thing now is teaching offense players to "lower" their head and draw targeting.

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Re: X & O Question: Has Up Tempo Offense Run It's Course?


Jan 27, 2021, 6:01 AM

IMO even though I am not a great X & O’s person, I think not having quite the speed we have had in the past at WR and missing WR’s like Tee Higgins, Ross being out and losing WR’s to the NFL hurt our up tempo offense this year. Along with Covid and a shorter spring practice may have contributed. Also the fact our OL did not have time to hel hurt ETN. If you can’t run the ball it’s tuff to throw it down field.

I have to give props to Cornell Powell, Amari Rodgers our TE’s and ETN for a great job catching the ball this year.

An evaluation from a diehard fan with average X & O’s knowledge.

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