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All-Conference [400]
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After scrolling through the entire Socialism SUCKS! thread
Feb 17, 2021, 4:15 PM
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I just want to throw out some definitions and see what everyone thinks.
The United States has a mixed economy. A socialist economy and mixed economy are different things. A mixed economy just means that there is a combination of public and private enterprise. So certain things are publicly owned and the government runs them (roads, schools, firefighters, sometimes healthcare), while other services are not.
In a socialist economy everyone would own the means of production through democratic and social control, instead of just business owners with people working for them. The way I've seen this advocated for (other than revolution) is mostly a push for the worker co-op model where every employee in a business has some share in that business along with a vote either on specific issues or for their representation at higher levels.
Some socialists want more centralized planning from a state while others reject the state and want to decentralize political institutions in favor of using direct democracy or consensus for their decision-making process.
Communism, which for some socialists is an end goal while socialism is just a stepping stone, is a classless society where the working class no longer relies on the state and in which all property and wealth are communally-owned.
Also China is not socialist or communist. They operate under a system of state capitalism with a totalitarian framework of Communist party rule.
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Heisman Winner [119519]
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The Socialism SUCKS! thread
Feb 17, 2021, 4:21 PM
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does SUCK.....
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All-In [40864]
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There is nothing preventing you from starting a worker
Feb 17, 2021, 4:40 PM
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co-op and competing against capitalist. There is nothing preventing you from getting all your fellow employees together and telling your boss he/she either splits the company between all of you evenly or you all walk.
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All-Conference [400]
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Okay, cool?
Feb 17, 2021, 4:42 PM
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I wasn't taking a position, just seeing whether we can agree what these words mean. From that thread it seemed like no one had a clear idea of what the terms being used even meant.
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Orange Blooded [4983]
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The USA is a totalitarian, communist regime.
Feb 17, 2021, 4:56 PM
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We pretend it's a mixed economy, but it's not. It's a totalitarian socialist/communist economy. There is no true free enterprise. There is no true property. The Ruling Class can do what they want and take what they want at any time, and there's nothing we can do about it. They allow some freedom of action so as to instill the illusion that there is still a free economy. Alas, there is none.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: The USA is a totalitarian, communist regime.
Feb 17, 2021, 5:22 PM
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Sounds like we're ######
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All-TigerNet [10852]
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Hall of Famer [21811]
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^^what he said
Feb 18, 2021, 8:04 AM
[ in reply to The USA is a totalitarian, communist regime. ] |
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The only difference is, the people of this country welcome this form of totalitarianism with open arms. It gives them their iPhones, flat screen TVs, cross-over SUVs, and that ability and freedom to get those sweet, ever-so-precious likes on social media.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: After scrolling through the entire Socialism SUCKS! thread
Feb 17, 2021, 5:53 PM
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Chris
I am not sure I agree with you delineations and definitions, but I don't want to argue them
The real disagreement between the left and the right is over the proper mixture of private vs public ownership of some (not all) industries, despite what some of the reactionary fear-mongers would have us believe.
We already have a mixed economy and have since day one. So the substantive argument boils down to
1. should ____________ industry be run by the government or by private for-profit businesses and
2. where along the continnuum is the proper balance between private and public control.
No offense but all of you specifics don't seem (to me) to clarify the issues involved.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: After scrolling through the entire Socialism SUCKS! thread
Feb 17, 2021, 6:15 PM
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The reason I think it's important to delineate is so we can have meaningful conversations where we're not using words incorrectly.
I agree that in a mixed economy like the US (or all of the European countries that people mistakenly point to as examples of "socialist countries") it is important to have that debate about what industries the government should or should not control. But that's not what socialism is or what socialists are advocating for.
I think the words socialism and communism get thrown around a lot to scare people. Things that are not socialism or communism are mislabeled in order to get people to reject them.
I know you think it is important that the government provides its citizens with healthcare, but your opponents in that fight are telling the people who listen to them you're a socialist who is going to destroy the economy. I think the only way to combat that is to understand what these words actually mean.
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All-TigerNet [10852]
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You had me until the last line.
Feb 17, 2021, 9:17 PM
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No such thing as state capitalism. It's a mixed economy, just like ours. Their branding is different, but that's all.
Otherwise, good summary.
I would add 2 things:
1) The difference between socialism and communism is purely academic. In practice they always end up the same: dictatorships that murder people by the millions.
2) In addition to your list: Fascism. Fascism is a system where private citizens own property, but it's really in title only, because the government controls the property. The difference between socialism and fascism is really not that much. They are both the polar opposite of the free market.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: You had me until the last line.
Feb 17, 2021, 9:46 PM
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I've seen China referred to as state capitalists because they have businesses which operate on a global market but are controlled by the state. I guess there's not a ton of consensus, so maybe another term would be more applicable.
I'm curious because I've seen some of your posts on here and can't quite make sense of where you pull your political prescriptions from, what flavor of anarchist are you?
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All-TigerNet [10852]
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Voluntaryist.
Feb 17, 2021, 10:18 PM
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I believe only voluntary interaction is moral.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: Voluntaryist.
Feb 17, 2021, 10:37 PM
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So I’m assuming you’re fine with capitalism then?
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All-TigerNet [10852]
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Well that's a tricky word. Obviously, if only voluntary
Feb 17, 2021, 11:52 PM
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interaction is accepted by society, then there will be a totally free market. I would call that Capitalism, but I know many people talk about Capitalism when what they really mean is a government-run mixed economy.
As to the practical side of things, I don't know how everything would work and I don't pretend to. I don't believe in central planning. I just know it is immoral to force other people to do things against their will. We would all be responsible for the precautions we took to secure ourselves and our families. There would still be criminals, but at least we wouldn't pretend like some of the criminals are the good guys.
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