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All-In [48078]
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Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 8:12 AM
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More jobs were created in Obama's last 3 years than in Trump's first 3 years. I am not saying Trump's economy at the moment isn't great. I am just saying it wasn't a mess. I think Trump has done some good things and is blazing new territory and is tackling tough issues that needed to be tackled, such as immigration, the border, and possibly trade deals, but he didnt inherit an economic mess. We are in a record 11th year of expansion. Je inherited a good economy and it got even better. By the way, I think he is almost a lock in 2020. I just wish he was more honest or at the least people/his followers would notice his bull.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 8:22 AM
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I don't think he was just talking about the economy. But the economy, while it did get better after the crash was CONSIDERED sluggish at best. GDP never got to 3% which is considered to be average.
As far as a inheriting a mess, one could say the country was more divided than ever under Obama (don't think that has improved) and many think foreign diplomacy was weak. A lot of people were offended by what they saw as Obama apologizing for America.
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Lot o points [155885]
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agree on the foreign policy part
Feb 5, 2020, 8:24 AM
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At best, Obama’s policy on the Middle East seemed to be appeasement and kicking the can down the road.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: agree on the foreign policy part
Feb 5, 2020, 8:32 AM
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What has Trump done that has made the Middle East better? What is so different other than Iran?
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Lot o points [155885]
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Syria is Russia’s problem now.
Feb 5, 2020, 8:42 AM
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A peace plan was introduced that seems to be a non-starter. What’s more significant was Egypt, Oman, UAE, et al agreeing up front to a rather pro-Israel two state solution. That’s a foot in the door.
Isis is all but a fart in the wind.
We are down to a relative handful of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.
We are negotiating with Iran from a position of power vs a position of appeasement.
I happen to think all of the above are positives.....I realize that some will prefer alternate solutions to a few ad that’s ok too.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Syria is Russia’s problem now.
Feb 5, 2020, 8:53 AM
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ISIS was getting crushed under Obama too. Trump just came in at the tail end. Trump's Middle East Peace agreement is meaningless in a way and will lead nowhere, but I liked the UAE, Oman, etc, part.
We arent negotiating with Iran at all. Maybe we will be negotiating eventually.
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Rock Defender [53]
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With all due respect ISIS wasn't getting crushed under
Feb 5, 2020, 6:42 PM
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Legend [18021]
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That was from 2015
Feb 5, 2020, 9:06 PM
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https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/oct/26/donald-trump/trump-takes-full-credit-gains-against-isis/
"Trump is correct in the sense that the Islamic State has suffered its largest territorial losses since he took office, but that confuses the timing with the cause.*
Between two-thirds and three-fourths of the firepower unleashed against ISIS hit before Trump became president. The terrorist group’s hold on territory had started to crumble a year before he took command. While Trump ordered some changes in the military operation, the experts we reached said those didn’t transform the strategy so much as continue the one he inherited from Obama.
Trump can take credit for keeping the fight going, but he has to share the glory for the results."
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: That was from 2015
Feb 5, 2020, 9:16 PM
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Legend [18021]
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Again...
Feb 5, 2020, 9:27 PM
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"Some defense analysts criticize Obama for not moving quickly enough to confront the Islamic State. Anthony Cordesman at the Center for Strategic and International Studies said the Obama administration was "grindingly slow" to get air power and equipment into the region. But that changed rapidly through 2015.
"Virtually all were in place before the Trump administration came to office, along with virtually all of the key arms transfers and other assistance that went to Iraqi forces and the Syrian forces supported by the U.S," Cordesman said.
Under Trump, the tempo of airstrikes increased, and military commanders were given greater leeway to order attacks. But Cordesman said that represented no great shift in overall strategy."
You're not completely wrong, but your need to give 100% of the credit to Trump is where it's clear you are inserting your partisan beliefs over the facts of the argument.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Legend [18021]
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What does time of the post have to do with anything?
Feb 5, 2020, 9:49 PM
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Seems like a random thing to throw in to try and prove a point, but okay.
It's up to you on whether or not you believe politifact, I just provided their assessment which provided context to your argument.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Deweather you would argue with a freaking wall
Feb 5, 2020, 9:57 PM
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Legend [18021]
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You're a weird and interesting cat
Feb 5, 2020, 10:12 PM
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"Then you tell me I’m wrong to give Trump the credit"
Nope, never said this. I said you're not completely wrong but your need to give 100% credit to Trump was based on partisan beliefs.
You confirm this by posting the excerpt from Politifact as "proof" that you're right but you cut off the very last sentence that reads, "But Cordesman said that represented no great shift in overall strategy."
You responded to Carlsbad's post from 10 hours earlier and yet try to drag me for posting less than 3 hours after your post? Have some self-awareness.
But, yeah, actually, I was bored. You were right about that. 
Gonna go watch some Netflix now.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Well you’re not even interesting
Feb 5, 2020, 10:25 PM
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All-In [48078]
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110%er [6101]
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 8:51 AM
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Don’t forget, the Fed raised rates on him 9 Times; the first one coming in Dec 2019 before Trump even took office. Many political factors are working against him to prevent him from succeeding. It’s all about 2020.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 9:03 AM
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I think the real proof of who Trump is will be how he does from 2020 to 2024. Time will tell.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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Hopefully we can deliver a Conservative congress and he
Feb 5, 2020, 9:59 AM
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can get something DONE!
a gridlocked congress will not get much done.
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Standout [347]
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He had a conservative Congress his first two years and got nothing
Feb 5, 2020, 5:26 PM
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done.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Another Dem who apparently doesn't understand how
Feb 5, 2020, 6:59 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 8:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess? ] |
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I missed the 2nd part of your post due to an advertisement. Sorry. As far as division, the country is as or more divided now than under Obama. Its not like that improved under Trump.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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of course...
Feb 5, 2020, 9:18 AM
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I've got two eyes as well.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Just wanted to make sure people understand that what you
Feb 5, 2020, 9:22 AM
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call sluggish is actually better than what we have gotten under Trump after deficit exploding tax cuts and increased government spending.
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All-In [34582]
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talk about lies***
Feb 5, 2020, 9:23 AM
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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franc, you want to take this one?
Feb 5, 2020, 9:29 AM
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 ">
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I'll leave it to the experts***
Feb 5, 2020, 9:37 AM
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All-In [46824]
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How about when he said he was protecting
Feb 5, 2020, 8:22 AM
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social security and medicare while at the same time proposing bills to gut it?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: How about when he said he was protecting
Feb 5, 2020, 8:33 AM
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He also said that he would make sure that all preexisting issues would be covered in his plan. Is that true?
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Republicans are working hard to gut healthcare and strip
Feb 5, 2020, 9:01 AM
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consumers of pre-existing condition coverage.
This is what pathological liars and their enablers do.
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All-In [46824]
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Heisman Winner [119695]
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Iran, Bad trade deals, Border chaos
Feb 5, 2020, 8:35 AM
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Etc
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Iran, Bad trade deals, Border chaos
Feb 5, 2020, 8:40 AM
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Fair enough. Those were probs and are probs.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 8:39 AM
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I've never thought Obama to be a good president, but you're right. There was no mess left behind. America was still thriving when Trump took office.
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Heisman Winner [119695]
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^^^head in sand***
Feb 5, 2020, 8:44 AM
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All-In [42151]
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I would to hear you explain to me...
Feb 5, 2020, 9:00 AM
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Exactly what mess Trump inherited in 2017 and how he has fixed it.
List form would be great. Thanks.
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All-In [42151]
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*Would love***
Feb 5, 2020, 9:00 AM
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Heisman Winner [119695]
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All-In [42151]
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Oh, I see now.
Feb 5, 2020, 9:18 AM
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Nah, that wasn't a good explanation. America was in great shape going in to Trump, and what you listed, Obama didn't really create it. Did you want to move?
I'll entertain a better explanation.
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All-In [38514]
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Say everything is terrible, get elected, then
Feb 5, 2020, 8:42 AM
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say everything is great. No different than doing all of the things that you criticized your predecessor for doing.
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CU Medallion [56067]
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You know, when Khrushchev was forced out, he sat down and
Feb 5, 2020, 8:46 AM
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wrote two letters and gave them to his successor. He said, "When you get yourself into a situation you can't get out of, open the first letter and you'll be safe. When you get yourself into another situation you can't get out of, open the second letter." Well, soon enough, this guy found himself into a tight place, so he opened the first letter which said, "Blame everything on me." So he blames the old man, it worked like a charm. He got himself into a second situation he couldn't get out of, he opened the second letter. It said, "Sit down, and write two letters."
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Lot o points [155885]
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In Soviet Russia, parable satirize you.***
Feb 5, 2020, 9:02 AM
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110%er [6101]
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 8:45 AM
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Stagnant economy
Military readiness level 30%
Unfettered illegal immigration
$500 billion trade deficit
70,000 factories closed
Disappearing middle class
Failed govt healthcare
NAFTA
Record low consumer confidence
Might be helpful to look at some of what he has corrected. The bigger question is why the media doesn’t report this:
https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1210703194252357637
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 8:56 AM
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Manufacturing is down under Trump. That hasnt been fixed. We still have issues. You are right, things were far from perfect.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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All-TigerNet [12098]
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 8:57 AM
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He just isnt honest and he knows he doesnt have to be.
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Legend [17285]
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Independent research of legit,primary sources is introduced
Feb 5, 2020, 9:18 AM
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in many undergraduate college programs and then fully developed in most graduate programs.
Many government and investment websites make economic research extremely easy now. Environmental, medical, criminal, demographic and other statistics are also readily available.
There’s no need to rely on any form of media _ mainstream, social, blogs or other forms laced with opinions.
Sadly many Americans are not capable or willing to put forth the effort to research statistics... but rely on things they see or hear from non-objective sources that confirm their biases.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Because he is a pathological liar and the Republican Party
Feb 5, 2020, 9:32 AM
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has become subservient to him.
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All-In [34582]
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talk about a liar...***
Feb 5, 2020, 9:37 AM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Because he is a pathological liar and the Republican Party
Feb 5, 2020, 9:44 AM
[ in reply to Because he is a pathological liar and the Republican Party ] |
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That is true. There is no debating that fact. That said, we Dems made it the only option. We got so extreme that anyone that goes against him in his party looks nuts.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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That is ridiculous.***
Feb 5, 2020, 9:46 AM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: That is ridiculous.***
Feb 5, 2020, 10:04 AM
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It's fact. Sadly
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Oculus Spirit [93662]
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America was the Soup NAZI's only customer.
Feb 5, 2020, 10:19 AM
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I think our trade agreements allowed our partners to shut our products out of their markets while they flooded our markets with products that use to be manufactured in our country. China was stealing our tech companies blind. We had trade deficits with nearly ever country we had trade deals with including Canada and Mexico. They took our money as they took our way of making money.
After doing a term in the military without a pay raise our troops had to wait in long lines for medical services. That's a bad look for the world's greatest nation.
I quit this topic.
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All-In [47750]
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All-In [28802]
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Trump is attitudinal, not factual
Feb 5, 2020, 2:17 PM
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That's how you have to interpret his appeal, and pretty much anything he does. I don't think anybody can deny that the mood of the country has darkened in general, such that nobody really responds to candidates who sound hopeful and positive anymore. You have to denounce everybody (but your people) and give credence to bad feelings in order to really get any traction.
I'd say this Era of Bad Feelings started sometime around 2014, and it came from two directions. One was the nascent SJW movement that came from college campuses, but which quickly captured pretty much every elite institution except the ones controlled by Republicans (ie. Congress). SJWs believe our whole society is rotten, and think that intersectional oppression structures everything. It's a revolutionary movement that was somehow adopted by big business within just a few short years, and which has now almost completely captured the Democrat Party. It's moved so quickly that even Barack Obama, who came from the progressive wing of the Party himself, has been left behind. Nobody who isn't seen as an old fuddy duddy or a partisan is bothering to oppose this on the left, either.
The other direction this came from was from people who felt hopeless and powerless in the face of the cultural lurch to the left, and who felt stymied by Democrat governance either in the form of a united government from 2008-2010 or a divided government from 2010-2016. These people saw the Supreme Court declare that they couldn't define marriage for themselves, and from there a cultural movement that has expanded "LGBTQ rights" further and further until it threatened even the idea of men and women. It saw increasing inequality in income, but arguably more importantly in terms of cultural power. The views of people who differed from the new elite norms were/are never represented respectfully or accurately, and even rearguard actions like approving RFRAs or donating to Christian schools are met with outrage by the People Who Matter.
This lack of cultural power further contributed to many Republicans' feeling political powerlessness, even though they held Congress for 6 years and even though that Congress was able to "prevent bad policy"/"obstruct Barack Obama" many times. Even though the perception of a lack of power was arguably inaccurate, conservative policy wasn't going to pass over the Obama's veto, and the media portrayed everything Obama wanted in a favorable light.
And so everybody is feeling bad and thinks we need lots of changes, even though things are actually pretty good. Democrats are voting for socialist candidates like Sanders who were never taken seriously until the last few years, and Republicans are supporting a vulgar, moronic caricature of a rich business man who had a reality TV show.
But will somebody more responsible be able to represent the current attitude, and channel it into good policy, good rhetoric, and good statesmanship? Or will our Era of Bad Feelings only result in cynicism?
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Lot o points [155885]
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Your subject line just described almost everyone who
Feb 5, 2020, 2:52 PM
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Achieves mass appeal on some level in the modern era. Not sure if you’ve noticed, but feelings started mattering more to the public than facts quite some time ago. It’s annoying, but it’s absolutely not new, nor did it originate with Trump.
Obama, Bill Clinton, Steve Jobs, Musk......they’ve all successfully marketed attitude to adoring fans who would fall asleep to facts.
As far as a dark mood, I’m afraid you’re speaking for yourself. My small business is booming. I just hired two more employees in the past two weeks. My wife is making more than she ever has in her job and were my kids to graduate today, the job market would be fantastic. Everyone I hang out with is similarly enthusiastic about life in general. My customers I encounter every day from many walks of life are smiling and happy. I neither see nor feel any “darkening mood” and if someone does, I’d suggest they are letting a singular individual’s personality influence their lives at a really unhealthy level.
If that mood gets too dark in Chicago come down to Nashville and I’ll show you how most of America is living. It’s pretty darn good out here.
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All-In [28802]
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It's true of many, sure
Feb 5, 2020, 3:47 PM
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But it's far more true of Trump than others. There was no substance behind the attitude, and there still isn't much substance.
Nobody would've voted for Trump, whose portrayal of America was dark, if they weren't in a dark mood.
Anyway, your post is going in lots of different directions. Either Trump captured the mood of America, or he didn't.
What I described is actually more like your third paragraph- things are actually good, and most people are fine in their daily lives. But if you ask them about the country, its politics, its culture, and its institutions, the mood is dark. There's an odd dissonance: things are good, but people perceive the direction of things as bad.
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Lot o points [155885]
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Speaking of dissonance.....
Feb 5, 2020, 4:46 PM
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you agree that things are good in the same post where you say Trump is an empty suit, as if the current condition of the country is completely and totally independent from, or even in spite of, anything he has had anything to do with.
Like I've always said, Trump is a jackasss with character traits that I'd never want my kids to emulate, and he's stepped on his Richard more times than I can count. With that said, I don't see how one can claim he's had nothing to do whatsoever with the generally positive state of affairs in the country (which some seem to recognize and enjoy and many seem happy to reject).
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All-In [28802]
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I don't think that's what I said
Feb 5, 2020, 6:19 PM
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But I do think the positive effects he's had would've been the same, if not amplified, if a more normal conservative person had been elected. Those are the people who've been the substance behind Trump. But those are the people you want to troll.
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Lot o points [155885]
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Just to recap.....
Feb 5, 2020, 6:50 PM
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In looking at actual things that happened under an actual person's administration, you feel your argument is validated and supported by your opinion of a hypothetical non-event (more conservative person's administration) that only someone in an alternate universe could know the outcome of, vs actually examining the reality in which we exist.
What were you saying about attitude outweighing facts?
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All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
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Read the OPs post if you want a recap
Feb 6, 2020, 1:31 PM
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You're going off on tangents in nearly every post.
As far as the speculation goes, it's the only way to compare Trump to other Republicans. Trump supporters do it when they claim that nobody else could've been as successful as he's been, or that he was the only hope to do what they'd like to be done. I don't think it's unfair, in that context, to ask whether a conservative Republican with a track record of governing or legislating, who is a more skilled statesman of higher character, might've also done many of the same things, and done them more competently. Of course, we'll never know, and Trump should be credited for doing the things he's done. But you dismiss speculation about other Republicans if you're going to claim that Trump was the only one who would've been able to do certain things, especially when the impetus for a lot of his conservative policy has been "Establishment" conservatives in Congress and his administration.
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Legend [18021]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30152
Joined: 9/9/06
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To be fair to Trump, all candidates say that
Feb 5, 2020, 4:07 PM
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otherwise why would they think there needs to be a change?
Trump's record is pretty spotty:
Pro:
Wall Street is soaring
Unemployment is record low
He's actually made some praise worthy criminal justice reforms
Economy is still strong
deregulation has helped in some cases
military spending
border control
Con:
Trade wars have negatively impacted economy
Trade deals have only put us back (and in some cases worsened our position) to where we were before we left them
Our standing in the world is significantly worse (at least in regards to Trump specifically)
Problems with Iran (created after JCPOA was torn up)
deregulation has put environment and health concerns in danger
wants to get rid of preexisting condition protection (despite saying he won't, he's arguing in court to get rid of them)
tax cuts/deficits
Erosion of government and its foundations
moral failings
family separation policy/border control
I'm not a Trump fan, clearly, but that's how I see the situation. Obviously, a trump supporter would put conservative activist judges as a pro but I clearly would disagree.
Trump's saving grace is the economy but I'm not sure 1.) How good it really is over Obama (2.3% growth which is around what Obama had, less jobs created, deficit spending higher than end of Obama's term, unemployment was trending downward under Obama, etc. and 2.) how much Trump (or any president) has to do with how the economy is doing. Right now it seems consumer spending/confidence and low interest rates are spurring the economy and if anything Trump has impacted it negatively (his trade wars have killed business spending confidence levels and increased prices). But it's up to the democrats to make the argument.
Democrats have a strong case that can be made, but they are awful at making their case so we'll see.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8862
Joined: 7/20/12
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I’d just like to know a few things.
Feb 5, 2020, 4:54 PM
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1. With all of the lawyers, witnesses, foreign leaders and FBI investigators, not one has been able to provide a single piece of evidence that Trump did anything wrong. Is it denial or plain stupidity that keeps the other party/ parties acting like babies?
2. Who is going to pay the American citizens back with all the wasted resources ( time and money) on all this BS. I believe in civil court, the losing party is responsible to pick up the tab!
3. Now that all this sh@t is behind us, can we please stop making ourselves dumb to the outside world by bickering like idiots and unify to do something productive and make this country a better place FFS?
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Legend [15492]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 18413
Joined: 12/10/14
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Re: Why does Trump keep saying he inherited a mess?
Feb 5, 2020, 9:37 PM
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Because his supporters eat it up. In the State of the Union he said that he was 'saving coverage for pre-existing conditions".
At exactly the same time his administration is in court trying to tear it away.
But....his followers believe him.
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Oculus Spirit [93662]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95412
Joined: 12/25/09
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Gobble, gobble.***
Feb 5, 2020, 9:40 PM
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