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Legend [15492]
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A thought exercise for the left and the right.
Feb 27, 2018, 12:55 PM
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Let try something. We have both liberal/conservative, right vs left posters on this board.
Let's see if we can come to some kind of compromise.
Everyone essentially agrees that rocket launchers should not be available for the general public. Although I know personally, several people who no doubt wouldn't use them irresponsibly, we all know that if you give them to all, some idiot is going to hurt somebody or somebodies with a rocket launcher. Therefore, because of the risk...they are not available.
This brings us to the lethality of weapons and their use.
Now, let's do away with the far left an far right positions.
Left: Take all the guns away. This option is off the table.
Right: Arm everyone. This option is off the table.
Now, where can we agree?
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CU Medallion [59969]
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Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right.
Feb 27, 2018, 12:59 PM
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1) Stricter background checks
2) Automatic Weapon Ban (semi-auto not a part of this)
3) Better security around schools. Funded in part through Homeland Security and the rest up to the States.
That would be my first stab at the top 3.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right.
Feb 27, 2018, 1:08 PM
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That seems reasonable. Would that include closing the gun show loop hole?
As I understand it, and I'm willing to be wrong about this, a gun store has to run a background check if you buy it in their store, but if they sell it at a gun show, no background check is required.
Would you agree to this change as well if such is the case?
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CU Medallion [59969]
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Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right.
Feb 27, 2018, 2:45 PM
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Absolutely. That is low hanging fruit that should already be in place, should have been included in the bump stock low hanging fruit, pleases the masses bill.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right.
Feb 27, 2018, 3:26 PM
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Well dang Tigermanac, me and you have at least made inroads into this difficult issue. It aint perfect but it's a start.
Now I think that everyone besides you and I should just shut up.
Cheers my friend. 
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110%er [6536]
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Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right.
Feb 27, 2018, 7:05 PM
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Well done Felix
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Scout Team [165]
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Commissioner [976]
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That’s not the gun show loophole
Feb 27, 2018, 3:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right. ] |
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If you own a gun store you have to have a “FFL” Fedral Firearms License. Any time they sell a gun whether at the store or a gun show they have to do a background check on the person buying the gun. The gun show loophole is private owners selling guns. I can sell you my guns without doing a background check on you. So what happens is people that can’t get a gun can go and buy them at gun shows from private citizens without the background check. I’ve bought a few guns that way but they always copy my drivers license which is smart on their part. The reason behind the private sell law was so a father or grandfather could pass down their guns in the family without having to do a background check on their kids which would be a waste of time. To be honest I really don’t know many private citizens that would sell a gun to someone and not get their info.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: That’s not the gun show loophole
Feb 27, 2018, 3:37 PM
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I didn't know that, thanks for the clarification.
But that does beg the question. If someone knows they can't pass a background check and buy from a licensed dealer, wouldn't they go to a gun show to purchase a gun?
I understand the family aspect. I got my first gun from my father too. But stranger to stranger sales at gun shows allow felons, for example, an easy access to guns they couldn't ordinarily acquire?
Not sure if or how to regulate that without stepping on the feet of relative to relative or friend to friend sales.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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you cannot regulate private sales without full registration
Feb 27, 2018, 3:50 PM
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and that is a NO GO.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: you cannot regulate private sales without full registration
Feb 27, 2018, 4:05 PM
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Agreed.
But is there a way to prevent felons from buying guns at gun shows?
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CU Medallion [50635]
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they're not necessarily inside the gun show
Feb 27, 2018, 4:08 PM
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many sales happen hanging around the area of the gun show
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Scout Team [165]
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Re: they're not necessarily inside the gun show
Feb 28, 2018, 12:56 PM
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very true. I see that all the time between people at the shows I've been to.
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Commissioner [976]
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Show ID to enter might make a felon think twice.
Feb 27, 2018, 4:22 PM
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What if you hold the seller accountable for any crimes the felon commits with a gun sold to them?
That might be something of a deterrent but I'm unclear as to how you would know someone is a convicted felon or not.
Maybe brand them with a scarlet "F"?
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CU Medallion [50635]
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sell gun report it stolen,seller off the hook***
Feb 27, 2018, 4:31 PM
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Hall of Famer [22929]
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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Commissioner [976]
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110%er [5476]
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Re: That’s not the gun show loophole
Feb 27, 2018, 10:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: That’s not the gun show loophole ] |
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I recently rented space, sold several firearms at a show and I am not a dealer. I used a South Carolina firearms bill of sale obtained on line. Each buyer had to provide a valid id, SC drivers license, to prove they were a a resident of South Carolina, a private seller per Federal Law can not sell a gun to anyone other than the state you and the buy reside in. The bill of sale was filled out by me in duplicate to include the buyers license number, current address, phone number, gun serial number, price, my address, phone number and my signature. The buyer after reading the bill of sale which included a statement that the individual was not prohibited from owning a firearm as applicable to the law, signed the bill of sale and I verified the signature against the signature on the license. The buyer was given the original copy of his bill of sale and my copy is secured in my safe deposit box.
I complied with all State and Federal laws at the show, there is no so called loophole. Before you all get cockeyed and hollering he sold a gun, sink your teeth into this and chew on it a while. I can legally go and buy a truck and after haggling awhile and settling on a price, the seller after I pay him gives me a bill of sale and I own the truck.
How many of you have forgotten Nice, France where 86 were killed and 458 were wounded with a truck. The truck had a driver, every gun has to have a finger to pull the trigger. Explain the difference?
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Hall of Famer [22929]
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You mean besides a title, license, registration, insurance
Feb 27, 2018, 10:43 PM
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And all sorts of other things vehicle owners are required to do to stay in line with the government?
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110%er [5476]
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Re: You mean besides a title, license, registration, insurance
Feb 28, 2018, 10:38 AM
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Well lets see, the bill of sale from the forearms dealer certifies you are the owner, one has to purchase a license to use a firearm to hunt, form 4473 filled out at the time of purchase is registering the firearm with the government and finally most owners of firearms purchase insurance to protect their investment.
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Scout Team [165]
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Re: You mean besides a title, license, registration, insurance
Feb 28, 2018, 1:00 PM
[ in reply to You mean besides a title, license, registration, insurance ] |
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Cant be under the influence either or they would take your car away. The whole "Lets start taking away cars" argument is lazy and gets us nowhere close to a solution on these issues. I go back up to the top of this topic and ask, Should we sell rocket launchers then? I'm a law abiding citizen. I'd never hurt anyone with it. Why can't I own a rocket launcher?
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All-In [46765]
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Why am I agreeing with you?
Feb 27, 2018, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right. ] |
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I never agree with you.
I would add a provision for mental health.
Maybe incentivize insurance companies to provide free/deeply discounted mental health screenings like they do check ups. Provide funding for research and treatment of these mental health issues. ect. Not real sure what would help. Never had to deal with it.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Why am I agreeing with you?
Feb 27, 2018, 1:12 PM
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That's reasonable. How about, anyone who is receiving disability for mental health issues that could be harmful to themselves or others (schizophrenia, anti-social personality disorder, etc) would be automatically listed in the background check data base? Would that work?
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All-In [46765]
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That's reactive
Feb 27, 2018, 1:13 PM
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I think we also need to have a proactive approach to mental health. Get these people the help they need before something bad happens.
Probably already happening, like I said, I've never had to deal with this.
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CU Medallion [50635]
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address hippa that seems to stop doctors from reporting
Feb 27, 2018, 1:18 PM
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mental patients to the background check data base
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Oculus Spirit [97634]
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Not sure we can. Your whole concern is that guns are
Feb 27, 2018, 1:33 PM
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a problem. Quite frankly guns are of little concern to me. I'm more concerned with the people that use them to kill other people. Because if there were no more guns, murder would still happen. Maybe a instapot at a marathon or some box cutters and an airline ticket. And murder aside, there are much bigger problems out there.
One thing I'm pretty sure (off the record) democrats and republicans both agree on in Congress is that we're broke. We can't tax our way out of our debt and we can't cut our way out of our debt. I'm pretty sure there's some basic consensus on that. Go from there.
There's consensus on the need for immigration reform, both ways. Congress has done nothing. For decades. There's a consensus on Congressional term limits. No way that will happen. There's a consensus on a balanced budget amendment. Not happening.
There's plenty of consensus out there in America. But that's all on things Congress doesn't want to deal with. So we keep bickering about guns, or dossiers, affairs, or whatever else that will divert attention from the biggest problem we have.
Not to marginalize murder, but if some of the bigger problems I mentioned are not addressed, random gun violence will be a moot point.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Not sure we can. Your whole concern is that guns are
Feb 27, 2018, 1:49 PM
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While I agree with your other concerns, this thread is meant only to address the gun debate.
You're other issues are very important and do need to be discussed.
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Oculus Spirit [80935]
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Legend [17216]
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Far out - Gun shows are like old Grateful Dead concerts ___
Feb 27, 2018, 6:19 PM
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You can buy the “blotter” in the parking lot.
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Legend [17216]
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Seriously just gave tigermanic a TU & brain short circuited.
Feb 27, 2018, 6:23 PM
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Multiple incremental steps needed and recognition that some loopholes will always exist.
Add mental health noGo criteria to background checks,
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Oculus Spirit [80935]
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I'd like a rocket launcher.***
Feb 27, 2018, 6:25 PM
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Legend [15492]
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Re: I'd like a rocket launcher.***
Feb 27, 2018, 7:52 PM
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You can't have a rocket launcher.
Susan had a rocket launcher and she killed a whole family.
Now nobody can have one.
THANKS A LOT SUSAN!
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All-In [31830]
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Felix is running a thought exercise....
Feb 27, 2018, 8:00 PM
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LOL
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Legend [16212]
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I am completely OK with 21 being the legal buying age for
Feb 27, 2018, 9:12 PM
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a first firearm. If you've been licensed a gun at 18 or over - military, certification, etc. - then you can purchase prior to 21 - though someone at some point has had to sign off for you - responsibility area. The 2nd Amendment backs this up - a "well regulated militia". Today's kids aren't well regulated for ####. And this is only about purchasing, not firing or owning or anything else. Crazies and pre-pubescent angst - take a seat.
We have to be better with background checks and locales sharing information. And better training on how to listen, account for, and process leads and tips. It's a school this time. It was a concert prior. It was a movie theater a while back. Churches. The problem is the vulnerability of soft targets, places where people go to let down their guard. Who's going to rush in and save a bunch of mall-goers if it's already so hard to protect peoples' kids? Diligence here, and some leeway to grease the squeaky wheels.
For a 1st-time purchase, the waiting period should be longer than 7 days. 15-30 days probably - whichever allows for the background mechanism to work its course to properly flag or not.
Gun show loopholes. That's total BS bought and paid for by someone. Not cool. If legal brick and mortar shops that invest in communities have to adhere to the regulations in place, these convention gigs of gun gypsies need to so as well. That's just common sense and is neither pro-2nd, pro-gun, or anti either. The only loophole around a background check should be via the black market, which is there anyway regardless.
Bump stocks turn civilian-legal weapons into machine guns. Machine guns, rightfully so, are banned. Thus should be civilian bump stocks. We might have to draw a caliber and firepower threshold as these items cover a broader range. But you get the idea.
I'm not in favor of any confiscation or retro-activity when it comes to any banned item. Got bump stocks? Great! They'll be worth a lot more now, but be careful who you sell one to because you could be liable for aiding a bad deed if something were to go down that way.
Finally, I'd like to see the NRA stay out of partisanship and stick to protecting the 2nd Amendment. Fascists are just as quick to confiscate weapons as communists. Fans of the 2nd Amendment span left and right. Pre-Nixon the NRA was probably stocked with Democrats. It's become it's own little political industry. I feel the NRA has co-opted the 2nd Amendment, which belongs to all, and its leadership has just turned it into a power mill for other purposes. The 2nd Amendment is neither Republican or Democrat. That the NRA has twisted it into something else.
Thanks for the opportunity to participate in your thought exercise.
Go Tigers.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right.
Feb 28, 2018, 11:42 AM
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1. Make it a serious priority to enforce the laws we have. The background check system (NICS) is not being implemented properly and it easily could be. (That handles most of the shootings right there)
2. Have at least two, specifically trained, armed officers in every schools.
3. Have security features in each school that make it easy to lock every door from the outside.
4. Anyone taking SSRI's should not be allowed to possess any semi-automatic firearms.
In my opinion, that would virtually eliminate deaths from school shootings.
Other forms of mass shootings or terrorism is impossible to stop completely though. But we can end school shootings.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: A thought exercise for the left and the right.
Feb 28, 2018, 1:15 PM
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You were doing well up until the SSRI thing. SSRI's are used for multiple issues and are even prescribed off label for the treatment of premature ejacualtion. Be careful what you wish for.
What about trycyclics? What about SNRI's? What about MAOI's?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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SSRI's are the only ones with any links to a possible
Feb 28, 2018, 2:17 PM
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increase in violent thoughts and impulses, as far as I understand. Maybe you are aware of some studies done that I need to learn about.
I don't think it would be fair to paint all anti-depressants with the same brush without such evidence.
And I'm not saying ban SSRI's. I'm saying limit the weapons that people on SSRI's can possess. Since there is such a higher percentage of mass shootings linked to SSRI's in particular, I think that would make sense.
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