|
Replies: 98
| visibility 1,225
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
See, I'm confused.
Jun 14, 2017, 10:36 AM
|
|
It's fair and right for Bernie Sanders to scream and slander a Christian in a confirmation hearing but may god dammm anyone who thinks muslims should be extremely vetted at the border and god forbid they be refused entry on their belief that the heathens should die?
I took offense. Had Bernie talked to a muslim that way, digging into his bible and getting to the heart of his theology the liberal on this board would be crying bloody murder.
The blind can't see but even a blind man can see the difference between Christian and Islamic Jihadist theology. Yes, Christian doctrine plainly states that some will go to helll. Islamic Jihadist doctrine instructs the 'believers,' to buy tickets and put heathens on the next flight.
|
|
|
|
 |
110%er [7207]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9432
Joined: 12/18/13
|
I haven't seen anyone support what Bernie did.
Jun 14, 2017, 10:42 AM
|
|
But hey, let's not miss any chances to shout out eeexxxtttttrrrreeeeemmmmmeeeeee vetting, even if we don't know what that means.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
There are multiple posts below doing that***
Jun 14, 2017, 12:00 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7207]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9432
Joined: 12/18/13
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21576]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13918
Joined: 9/7/02
|
Re: See, I'm confused.
Jun 14, 2017, 10:43 AM
|
|
Link?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Minute and second where the scream occurs?***
Jun 14, 2017, 10:45 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
1:41
Jun 14, 2017, 10:51 AM
|
|
Don't act like that's civilized discord.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
+1 for "civilized discord"
Jun 14, 2017, 11:00 AM
|
|
I'll go watch the video.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
I have absolutely no problem with that "scream."
Jun 14, 2017, 11:03 AM
[ in reply to 1:41 ] |
|
Bernie asked him the same question multiple times, and the guy tried to dodge over and over with "I'm a Christian," which everyone already knew, and which didn't answer the question. Good on Bernie for not taking that guy's crap.
Bernie can do it to all of Trump's Muslim nominees as well. I don't care. Snowflakes shouldn't work in DC.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Oh but it did answer the question.
Jun 14, 2017, 11:14 AM
|
|
Bernie knew well exactly what the man believed. Instead of getting in the dirt with Sanders he simply stated his belief by identifying with Christ who plainly taught that He was the only path to God.
Bernie cut him off before he could qualify and lashed out at him because of his belief in Christ. Had it been a muslim or another minority religion in this country Bernie would not have done it and certainly would have brought the ire of the entire liberal community who condemn the travel ban as religious persecution.
First you couldn't find a scream in a three minute video now you're defending it. I see how this works.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Oh but let's look at the transcript, shall we?
Jun 14, 2017, 11:21 AM
|
|
Let's see how much dodging this punk has to do before Sanders puts his foot down. (And notice that he NEVER answers the question.)
Starting at the 0:25 mark:
Sanders: ...in the piece that I referred to that you wrote for the publication called Resurgent. You wrote, “Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ, His Son, and they stand condemned.” Do you believe that that statement is Islamophobic?
Vought: Absolutely not, Senator. I’m a Christian, and I believe in a Christian set of principles based on my faith. That post, as I stated in the questionnaire to this committee, was to defend my alma mater, Wheaton College, a Christian school that has a statement of faith that includes the centrality of Jesus Christ for salvation, and . . .
Sanders: Again, I apologize. Forgive me, we just don’t have a lot of time. Do you believe people in the Muslim religion stand condemned? Is that your view?
Vought: Again, Senator, I’m a Christian, and I wrote that piece in accordance with the statement of faith at Wheaton College.
Sanders: I understand that. I don’t know how many Muslims there are in America. Maybe a couple million. Are you suggesting that all those people stand condemned? What about Jews? Do they stand condemned too?
Vought: Senator, I’m a Christian . . .
Sanders (screaming at the top of his lungs, frightening ClemsonTiger1988): I understand you are a Christian!!!!!!!!!!!! But this country are made of people who are not just — I understand that Christianity is the majority religion, but there are other people of different religions in this country and around the world. In your judgment, do you think that people who are not Christians are going to be condemned?
Vought: Thank you for probing on that question. As a Christian, I believe that all individuals are made in the image of God and are worthy of dignity and respect regardless of their religious beliefs. I believe that as a Christian that’s how I should treat all individuals . . .
Sanders: You think your statement that you put into that publication, they do not know God because they rejected Jesus Christ, His Son, and they stand condemned, do you think that’s respectful of other religions?
Vought: Senator, I wrote a post based on being a Christian and attending a Christian school that has a statement of faith that speaks clearly in regard to the centrality of Jesus Christ in salvation.
Sanders: I would simply say, Mr. Chairman, that this nominee is really not someone who this country is supposed to be about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137908]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63799
Joined: 10/22/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Sorry, I didn't respond to your last point.
Jun 14, 2017, 11:25 AM
[ in reply to Oh but it did answer the question. ] |
|
First you couldn't find a scream in a three minute video now you're defending it. I see how this works.
It's not that I couldn't find it. It's that I wasn't sure which part you were calling the "scream," and I wasn't going to go through 3 minutes of video making guesses.
And hells yeah I'm defending it. It was hardly a scream, and it should have been louder, and Bernie should've thrown something at him while he was at it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7207]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9432
Joined: 12/18/13
|
Re: Sorry, I didn't respond to your last point.***
Jun 14, 2017, 11:28 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
"The truth"?
Jun 14, 2017, 1:02 PM
|
|
You misspelled "being a weasel."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
If you're starting an S&M club...
Jun 14, 2017, 2:14 PM
|
|
I was ejected recently from the RAG and am looking for some fellowship.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Actually, I don't think Bernie understood at all
Jun 14, 2017, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to Oh but it did answer the question. ] |
|
I also don't think he wanted to understand. Some moron staffer probably found that piece and decided the quote was inflammatory enough for his boss to make some hay. But since providing some context would've made it more difficult to use that against Vought, Bernie and the others weren't interested in context.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
He answered that way because he probably assumed...
Jun 14, 2017, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to I have absolutely no problem with that "scream." ] |
|
Bernie actually knew something about Christianity. Vought didn't think he needed to say anything other than that what he'd written was pretty standard Christian theology.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Plenty of Christians don't believe what that guy wrote.***
Jun 14, 2017, 11:49 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
Yep, and lots of Christians do
Jun 14, 2017, 11:58 AM
|
|
Sanders shouldn't be debating theology, though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Disagree that it's "debating theology."***
Jun 14, 2017, 12:29 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
What exactly was the point of the question, then?
Jun 14, 2017, 3:05 PM
|
|
The piece Vought wrote was on a theological question. I'm not sure why Sanders thought it was relevant in the first place, unless he thinks the only acceptable theological position is universalism.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
The point was not to debate theology.
Jun 14, 2017, 5:09 PM
|
|
The point was to determine Vought's theological belief.
Bernie Sanders believes that one's theological belief in this respect is important. As do I, as do you (I suspect), and as does Vought.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
That particular belief isn't important for public service
Jun 15, 2017, 12:07 PM
|
|
Lots, and lots, and lots of people have held public office who also held that view. Lots of people who fought for equal rights held that view. Lots of people who created and upheld our doctrines of religious liberty held that view. So when Sanders says that Vought's view is unamerican, he's challenging that theological view.
I'm not even really sure that Sanders knew he was talking about theology, though. I think he thought Vought was just condemning Muslims as being less dignified or less worthy of respect than others. That's why Vought was trying to point out that he was wading into a very specific dispute over whether Muslims and Christians worship the same god, and that the view that, because Muslims don't worship the true God, Muslims are condemned doesn't mean he would treat Muslims with any less respect than he would treat anybody else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Me too.
Jun 14, 2017, 3:10 PM
[ in reply to Disagree that it's "debating theology."*** ] |
|
It wasn't about theology it was about criticizing someone about their religious beliefs in a rude and unacceptable manner.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Vought was rude. Bernie's manner was acceptable.***
Jun 14, 2017, 5:09 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Tell me why I don't think you believe that.***
Jun 14, 2017, 11:01 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Yes, and there are also many Christians who
Jun 14, 2017, 1:47 PM
|
|
don't take their religion completely literally, or who simply don't agree with the part about condemning non-believers.
I created a poll about this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I don't believe we are going to have to pass an entrance...
Jun 14, 2017, 3:36 PM
|
|
exam. I don't believe we will have to face a jury. This will be a one on one with God who will judge whether or not we as individuals accepted His Son the Lord Jesus Christ as our savior. What He will say is 'depart from me for I never knew you.'
Actually, Christian will give account to Christ for our behavior. There will be tears.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
See? You know how to state your belief.
Jun 14, 2017, 5:10 PM
|
|
Too bad Vought had to be a weasel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Dood, Bernie interruped him.
Jun 14, 2017, 6:06 PM
|
|
I would probably have told Bernie that I didn't give a chit what he though and where he could put his condensions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
If you ask a question you must let a person respond.
Jun 14, 2017, 11:02 PM
|
|
Bernie was showboating and torturing a man because of his religious belief.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
He repeated the same non-response.
Jun 15, 2017, 10:25 AM
|
|
At some point, you can't put up with a weasel.
I'm still reading your posts though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56069]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31637
Joined: 8/27/02
|
So Vought had written Muslims stand condemned to hayell.
Jun 14, 2017, 11:56 AM
[ in reply to He answered that way because he probably assumed... ] |
|
Bernie's like, "Do you still think that?" If the answer was so obvious, it shouldn't need any further elaboration than yes or no. Instead Vought's answer was, "I’m a Christian, and I believe in a Christian set of principles based on my faith. That post, as I stated in the questionnaire to this committee, was to defend my alma mater, Wheaton College, a Christian school that has a statement of faith that includes the centrality of Jesus Christ for salvation, and . . ."
"I’m a Christian, and I wrote that piece in accordance with the statement of faith at Wheaton College."
"Senator, I’m a Christian . . ."
"Senator, I wrote a post based on being a Christian and attending a Christian school that has a statement of faith that speaks clearly in regard to the centrality of Jesus Christ in salvation."
How hard was it to just say "yes"? Because he knew how bad that looks? What does God think about people who are ashamed to admit their cherished Christian beliefs in public?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
No, I think based on the clear misconception in the question
Jun 14, 2017, 12:00 PM
|
|
he probably thought he needed to provide some context. I really don't think what he wrote looks bad unless you're trying to make it into something it's not, which is probably why Vought thought he needed to talk about why he wrote what he wrote.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56069]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31637
Joined: 8/27/02
|
What is the misconception?
Jun 14, 2017, 12:12 PM
|
|
And what context was necessary to understand the quote? What additional information is needed to comprehend that Christians think Muslims will burn in hell for eternity?
Simply saying "yes" would have looked really bad to many Americans and he'd be viewed as fringe and I think he knew that, so he had to try to downplay it and spin Christianity from a negative belief system (everyone's going to hell but us) to a positive belief system (as a Christian, I believe that all individuals are made in the image of God and are worthy of dignity and respect regardless of their religious beliefs).
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
The misconception is that it has anything to do with...
Jun 14, 2017, 4:05 PM
|
|
his duties, as if believing that people need salvation and stand condemned otherwise means you can't treat them with equity. I think most people understand that believing people are going to hell doesn't mean you don't like them or that you can't be kind to them. In fact, some people would say that's a motivation to be especially kind in hope of their salvation, and in gratitude for your own salvation which you don't deserve. I certainly agree that talking about soteriology as if you're the one condemning people, or as if it was about unequal personal worth, would sound negative to most people. But that's exactly why Vought was explaining what (many) Christians actually believe.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
There was no misconception.
Jun 14, 2017, 11:03 PM
|
|
Bernie didn't care about anything but having his say. He's a turd.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
When Sanders ended the theatrics and let the man qualify...
Jun 14, 2017, 12:16 PM
[ in reply to So Vought had written Muslims stand condemned to hayell. ] |
|
the concept behind the really issue he responded quit nicely and truthfully. The real issue was that he believed what he had written but that wasn't the extent of his belief. The qualification to that statement when to 'respect.'
It's not what you think of another man it's how you treat him. One of those men was a rude aszhole the other was a soft spoken gentleman.
A food turns down a beauty queen because her hair ain't the right color.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56069]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31637
Joined: 8/27/02
|
Trump voters complaining about rude aszholes lol.***
Jun 14, 2017, 12:21 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Trump supporters in general are polite and gentle people.
Jun 14, 2017, 12:32 PM
|
|
Don't judge them by classifying them with me, OK?
Everybody laugh, end of argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83116]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80156
Joined: 11/29/99
|
Link to where anyone said it was fair and right for
Jun 14, 2017, 10:54 AM
|
|
Bernie to do that.
Bernie is a nut-job.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15971
Joined: 10/25/02
|
Link to anyone on the left calling him out for it
Jun 14, 2017, 11:04 AM
|
|
I'll wait
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
I did see some MSM sources saying he was wrong
Jun 14, 2017, 11:46 AM
|
|
But those sources also provided "balancing" quotes that weren't really challenged.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137908]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63799
Joined: 10/22/00
|
Let's get a little more granular on Bernie's point, then.
Jun 14, 2017, 11:11 AM
|
|
Guy looking for appointment to government position where he ostensibly makes policy based on his Christian beliefs, yes? I didn't pay attention to what post he's trying to get. Doesn't matter.
Bernie's point, fair or not: "Do you believe that non-Christians are condemned to Hell and will not receive salvation?" The dancing, ducking, weaving answer: "yes"
As a Christian, no problem with him creating policy that is potentially favorable to Christians, or unfavorable to non-Christians (no idea if he would actually attempt to do this, but that would be the concern of those who don't share his beliefs). With me so far?
OK, what if he's a devout Methodist, and believes all other sects of Christianity are condemned to Hell, would you be ok with him being confirmed and potentially creating, directing, and enforcing policy that is unfavorable to you, as a Lutheran? Again, no idea what post this particular guy is trying to get, but it doesn't matter, as this is a broader question anyway.
How much do you REALLY believe in "freedom of religion"? Is it more like "freedom of a particular religion"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
It's a moronic point
Jun 14, 2017, 11:57 AM
|
|
The gist of Vought's answers to Bernie's questions was that, as a Christian, of course he believed that non-Christian theology was deficient and that his understanding of Christian theology was that those who didn't accept Christ were "condemned." He went on to explain that it was also his Christian belief that he should treat everybody with equal dignity whether or not they "stand condemned", but Sanders cut him off. So Vought's beliefs about soteriology are irrelevant to his ability to perform his duties equitably.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: It's a moronic point
Jun 14, 2017, 1:07 PM
|
|
The gist of Vought's answers...
Yes, well, you have to say "the gist of" because actually quoting Vought won't get you any of those nice things that you decided constitute the "gist" of it.
Because he tried to weasel and got called out.
PERIOD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
A Christian in name only can be more dangerous than a...
Jun 14, 2017, 6:27 PM
[ in reply to It's a moronic point ] |
|
pit viper. The Bible calls them sheep in wolves' clothing. A man who continues in God's Word will be free from much selfish desire and always the better choice for servant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Yes. And the true believers can also be terrible.***
Jun 14, 2017, 10:36 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Perhaps but if you'll notice I defined Christian
Jun 14, 2017, 11:19 PM
|
|
instead of just assuming you and our fellows here understand what that is all about. I specified that a Christian who 'continues in the word,' is harmless.
Christ said, 'If ye continue in my word then are ye disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.'
People rip my flesh when the say 'You will know the truth and the truth will make you free.' That, my friend is a lie straight from the pits of helll. 2+2 is 4. In a manner of speaking that is the truth but seldom does math set anyone free from anything but ignorance.
I'm glad you asked. Christ is the Truth according records of His own words and only those who continue in his word are free. Free from what, you asked? I'm so glad. 
Free from the bonds of sin for without Christ in one's heart and His continual guidance including Bible study, prayer and fellowship with Him none are free from the bonds of sin while in this world though they may be truly saved and freed from the law of sin and death, Levitical Law.
That is why we see such a wide range of attitudes within the Church. I call them spiritual children.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Assuming that both of us believe Sanders and Vought...
Jun 14, 2017, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to Let's get a little more granular on Bernie's point, then. ] |
|
were being truthful my contention is that you missed Vought's declaration.
What he said when something like this, 'As a Christian I believe all men are made in the image of God and are worthy of dignity and respect.'
I do now testify that the scripture does often use the word 'respect,' with it's denotation and not the connotation which we use most often. Respect in the scripture of the New Testament directs believers to refrain from differentiation between men.
Vought made clear that he would respect and treat all men equally as a duty to God. He seemed clear, concise (when bernie finally let him finish a thought) and made his message as passive and polite as humanly possible.
I really believe in freedom of religion and it appears Vought does too. Any man who lives by the creed Vought believes is a credit to our nation by virtue of his support of our constitution and his true support of our freedom of religion.
Were he muslim, jewish, hindu, any other or no religion he is exactly who America was founded on and those who America was founded for. Anyone who respects others as he should, should be our choice to represent us in government.
Whether or not they are Christian has no bearing on an appointment to me. However, I trust people but verify their word when possible. I'm sure the senate hearing participants looked further into Vought's background than any of us. Did you notice anything in his past which might disqualify him to serve?
Would you rather have an atheist? Atheist seem typically cold and hostile toward Christians. I think we probably saw that in the video.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137908]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63799
Joined: 10/22/00
|
Short answer?
Jun 14, 2017, 12:46 PM
|
|
Yes, I'd rather have an atheist in office. W. invaded Iraq because God spoke directly to him and told him to do so. ISIS, that you're so angry with Obama over, wouldn't exist if God hadn't told W. to invade Iraq.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Do you believe that?
Jun 14, 2017, 2:18 PM
|
|
Bush invaded to make sure his family oil fields/wells in the region were no longer threatened by Saddam. I supported that action but in hindsight I was a fool.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15749]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2/1/99
|
You're confusing your issues.
Jun 14, 2017, 12:01 PM
[ in reply to Let's get a little more granular on Bernie's point, then. ] |
|
I think (and I could definitely be wrong and I'm open to counter points) that "salvation is through Jesus" is a central belief of ALL Christian denominations. SEPERATE from that is a person who enacts laws to favor his faith. You don't need the first to do the second. So if that is your concern, why attack basic beliefs like that? He specifically said he believed in the dignity of all of God's creatures. Bernie just didn't believe him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
I just don't think Bernie wanted to understand
Jun 14, 2017, 12:07 PM
|
|
He was more interested in using an out of context quote somebody in his office found to oppose a Trump administration nominee. I also think something like this is an indication of a lack of charity on his part about people who disagree with him politically. He certainly wouldn't be the first person to seem to want to believe that people who disagree with him are bad people who believe terrible things, but this kind of thing ought to be called out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15749]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2/1/99
|
Agreed. I'd like someone to list out the Democrats that
Jun 14, 2017, 12:22 PM
|
|
Profess to be Christians, ask them if they believe that Accepting Jesus is the way to the Heaven, and if they say they do (and of course, no hemming or hawing...Bernie won't have it.), ask Bernie if he thinks his colleagues are fit to govern.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
I can just imagine the outcry about a R testing theology***
Jun 14, 2017, 4:13 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Disagree completely.
Jun 14, 2017, 1:45 PM
[ in reply to I just don't think Bernie wanted to understand ] |
|
Bernie wanted to make see if the guy still believed what he wrote. Everyone knew that was the question, and the question never got answered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15749]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2/1/99
|
Interesting. To me he clearly answered the question.
Jun 14, 2017, 3:06 PM
|
|
You're being kind. Bernie was playing politics and wanted to create an awkward moment for the guy. The guy, not being a moron, isn't going to make a fire and brimstone comment about Muslims during a Senate hearing, but still wishes to be honest. If Bernie wanted the answer, he would have been content. Bernie wanted to embarrass him, so Bernie was frustrated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15749]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2/1/99
|
I would also add that the conversation ended because the guy
Jun 14, 2017, 4:29 PM
|
|
started to explain his Christian perspective on non-Christians, which is that they were made in God's image, were God's children and deserved respect and dignity as a result. Well that won't do. It almost sounded like that guy's Christian values would demand that he think of non-Christians and their needs right along with Christians. Bernie would have none of that.
Really a bad look for Bernie, who I think most people would consider above that gamesmanship and pettiness. But I guess not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15749]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2/1/99
|
Agree to disagree. These are big boy games and that guy
Jun 14, 2017, 5:36 PM
|
|
wouldn't belong there if he allowed a partisan attack to hit its mark. You know darned well that he answered the question...just not in a way that served Bernie's agenda.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: Agree to disagree. These are big boy games and that guy
Jun 14, 2017, 5:55 PM
|
|
Actually no, he never answered it.
The question was whether he stood by his own past statement that non-Christians were condemned.
Rather than say yes or no, he made a different statement.
Sanders: ...in the piece that I referred to that you wrote for the publication called Resurgent. You wrote, “Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ, His Son, and they stand condemned.” Do you believe that that statement is Islamophobic?
Vought: Absolutely not, Senator. I’m a Christian, and I believe in a Christian set of principles based on my faith. That post, as I stated in the questionnaire to this committee, was to defend my alma mater, Wheaton College, a Christian school that has a statement of faith that includes the centrality of Jesus Christ for salvation, and . . .
Sanders: Again, I apologize. Forgive me, we just don’t have a lot of time. Do you believe people in the Muslim religion stand condemned? Is that your view?
[LOOK! AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY "YES" OR "NO"]
Vought: Again, Senator, I’m a Christian, and I wrote that piece in accordance with the statement of faith at Wheaton College.
[Oh oops, he just told us that he's a Christian (which we knew) and why he wrote the piece.]
Sanders: I understand that. I don’t know how many Muslims there are in America. Maybe a couple million. Are you suggesting that all those people stand condemned? What about Jews? Do they stand condemned too?
[LOOK! AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY "YES" OR "NO"]
Vought: Senator, I’m a Christian . . .
[Oh oops, he just told us that he's a Christian again.]
Sanders (screaming at the top of his lungs, frightening ClemsonTiger1988): I understand you are a Christian!!!!!!!!!!!! But this country are made of people who are not just — I understand that Christianity is the majority religion, but there are other people of different religions in this country and around the world. In your judgment, do you think that people who are not Christians are going to be condemned?
[LOOK! AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY "YES" OR "NO"]
Vought: Thank you for probing on that question. As a Christian, I believe that all individuals are made in the image of God and are worthy of dignity and respect regardless of their religious beliefs. I believe that as a Christian that’s how I should treat all individuals . . .
[Oh oops, he just answered a different question.]
Sanders: You think your statement that you put into that publication, they do not know God because they rejected Jesus Christ, His Son, and they stand condemned, do you think that’s respectful of other religions?
[LOOK! AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY "YES" OR "NO"]
Vought: Senator, I wrote a post based on being a Christian and attending a Christian school that has a statement of faith that speaks clearly in regard to the centrality of Jesus Christ in salvation.
[Oh oops, he just told us that he's a Christian again, and why he wrote the piece again.]
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31891]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37177
Joined: 11/22/03
|
He was grand-standing...
Jun 14, 2017, 3:36 PM
[ in reply to Disagree completely. ] |
|
he wanted the guy to say he thought all non-Christians were condemned so everyone who either dislikes Christianity/religion in general could circle jerk about how bad his statement is...not really interested in the context or the rest of what he said about his belief to treat everyone with love and respect.
It's the reason he kept cutting him off...he didn't want to understand anything...he just wanted a "yes" so he and others could run with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 58393
Joined: 11/14/03
|
The question did get answered
Jun 14, 2017, 4:08 PM
[ in reply to Disagree completely. ] |
|
The guy obviously believes what he wrote, he was just clarifying it for somebody who didn't seem to understand where he was coming from. I just don't think Bernie has any idea what he was talking about. If he did, then Bernie is a religious bigot who would keep many, many Christians out of public service.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: The question did get answered
Jun 14, 2017, 5:14 PM
|
|
The guy obviously believes what he wrote
See how easy? "I believe what I wrote." That's all he had to say.
He chose to be a weasel instead. Shouldn't Christians boldly assert their beliefs? Isn't that what so many martyrs have done? This man should be ashamed before his God. Shame! Shame!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17285]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14229
Joined: 12/14/98
|
Point for OP admitting "I'm confused".***
Jun 14, 2017, 11:18 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Re: Point for OP admitting "I'm confused".***
Jun 14, 2017, 12:01 PM
|
|
Screw ewe...butt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56069]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31637
Joined: 8/27/02
|
This is a weird liberal hypocrisy I don't understand.
Jun 14, 2017, 11:23 AM
|
|
I guess they see Muslims as the underdog who's being discriminated against by Christian conservatives. While that's not entirely wrong, liberals need to recognize that American Christian conservatives are like homos in jean shorts riding on a rainbow parade float during a gay pride parade in comparison to mainstream Middle Eastern Muslims.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Hold on just a minute.
Jun 14, 2017, 12:23 PM
|
|
You can't slander the gay bike riding, jorts wearing people like that and get away with it. This is America, I stand up for the gay, bike riders in jorts because I'm Christian.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15749]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2/1/99
|
Wow. He basically said anyone who believes in
Jun 14, 2017, 11:28 AM
|
|
Christianity isn't fit to hold office in America.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Nooooooo, that would be religious discrimination!
Jun 14, 2017, 12:03 PM
|
|
Liberals would never tolerate religious discrimination in this country.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
I realize that was sarcasm, but most libs, even if..
Jun 14, 2017, 12:24 PM
|
|
they don't admit it, have no problem leaving all forms of religion out of government. As a matter of fact it important to us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
You can do that.
Jun 14, 2017, 12:27 PM
|
|
As soon as Christians make the mass exit the theater will be all yours.  Until then and with the massive amount of people on this planet being religious don't expect much help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [14233]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13983
Joined: 2/8/11
|
I'm a fan of keeping religion out of politics all together.***
Jun 14, 2017, 11:46 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15749]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2/1/99
|
What does that mean?***
Jun 14, 2017, 12:23 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
That is broad, but for me it would mean..
Jun 14, 2017, 12:32 PM
|
|
in part, that all religious establishments incomes are taxed, and that the government gives no vouchers for any school that promotes a religion, and that religious text is a non factor in any decision or policy of the government. That is still pretty vague I know. Nancy Pelosi is talking about religion now and it just seems like nonsense, but she is just talking how she prays for the country. That is fine though. It is harmless.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31891]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37177
Joined: 11/22/03
|
you want to tax income?...
Jun 14, 2017, 3:31 PM
|
|
businesses are taxes on profits, not income/revenue.
Most religious entities are non-profit, so what is it exactly you want to tax?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4995]
TigerPulse: 59%
Posts: 8298
Joined: 10/8/08
|
Re: I meant net profits obviously.
Jun 14, 2017, 4:08 PM
|
|
"A lot of church's are big business"
Please explain. Church staff members pay self employment taxes on their salary. Everything else the church brings in goes back to the building or for programs. Nobody is drawing an owners share of the "profit".
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
Not true always.
Jun 14, 2017, 4:14 PM
|
|
There are company jets, cars, multiple properties around the world, in cases. They are scams.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31891]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37177
Joined: 11/22/03
|
no they don't and I'm not naive....
Jun 14, 2017, 4:13 PM
[ in reply to I meant net profits obviously. ] |
|
First, can we agree that we shouldn't base our discussion on the Church of Scientology?
A typical church doesn't make profits. If you think it does, then you need to explain to me what exactly you mean.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
There are a lot of mega church's that are killing it.
Jun 14, 2017, 4:16 PM
|
|
There are a lot of very profitable church's in the US.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31891]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37177
Joined: 11/22/03
|
come on...you've got to do a little better...
Jun 14, 2017, 4:17 PM
|
|
than just stating your line again.
Define for me how a church makes a profit please.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
Here are some obscene ones.
Jun 14, 2017, 4:35 PM
|
|
Benny Hinn, Creflon Dollar etc. There use the possessions of the church, such as jets and cars,lakehouses, retreats that they use, etc etc, but they really don't own them supposedly. Even on a more simple level, "parsonage allowance. Ministers can exclude from their income a rental allowance or the fair rental value of a parsonage that is provided to them as pay for their services. This exemption applies only for income tax purposes. The exclusion does not apply to self-employment taxes." I see all church's a scam though. I am biased. Everyone of them. I realize most are small and many aren't worth anything. That said, they are just businesses in my mind. Just a way to make a living. How many billions is the Catholic church worth in the USA alone? As far as at the Church of Scientology, whatever they can get away, so can all church's. Wy are they a bad example? Same rules apply to themm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31891]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37177
Joined: 11/22/03
|
You seem to want to base your opinions...
Jun 14, 2017, 8:48 PM
|
|
on the extreme examples which are by far in the minority when you consider all of the churches and ministers/priests in the country.
But let's take your extreme examples...you say the church should pay taxes on "profits" and you consider high salaries, church-owned transportation, etc...somehow as "profits". But none of those things are "profits", not for churches and not for normal companies. All of those things are expenses, not profits.
You admit you have a bias (as I'm sure I do) and you consider churches the same as businesses, so I guess we don't have much more to discuss...except that I would add that your points wouldn't hold up even when viewed as pertaining to a business.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31891]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37177
Joined: 11/22/03
|
Did this line not give you pause about the author knowing...
Jun 14, 2017, 8:58 PM
|
|
when the heck their talking about:
"not taxing churches is taking an estimated $71 billion from our economy every year,"
Do you think taxing a church adds somehow "to the economy"? If so, how? Perhaps they meant it would add income to the government.
Certainly if churches were to be charged property taxes it would add to local government income (wouldn't have any impact federally obviously).
Once again, businesses pay taxes on profits and churches don't make a profit nor have an owner, for all intents and purposes.
The author then makes a claim that churches don't meet the definition of a charitable organization because employees pay taxes on their salaries? This claim didn't strike you as odd...you know, 'cause it's quite common for charities to have paid employees and those employees are taxed on their income?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3590]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 6987
Joined: 11/30/12
|
What Bernie did was illegal. But he is too ignorant to know.***
Jun 14, 2017, 3:02 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33611
Joined: 9/13/99
|
No, there's a statute authorizing his conduct. ($1 to CDef)***
Jun 14, 2017, 5:15 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3590]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 6987
Joined: 11/30/12
|
Article VI
Jun 14, 2017, 8:51 PM
|
|
...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 98
| visibility 1,225
|
|
|
50
