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Heisman Winner [137751]
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rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 9:54 AM
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I mean, not really. 29 out of 50 states are already higher than the federal minimum wage. And of course, fucking Georgia (and Wyoming) are BELOW $7.25, so the federal law actually has to kick in there. Minimum wage hasn't been increased since 2007-2009, and wouldn't hit the $15 mark until 2025--16 years apart. I kinda doubt the bill ends up at $15 anyway, will probably be a compromise mark of ~$12ish, and then we'll sit on it for another decade and a half and keep demonizing poor people. "Get a job!" "Oh, you have one?" "Get two jobs!"
Cost of living is lower in the south, especially rural, so no real surprises that they're following the federal MW there. The obvious assholes I see are New Hampshire, PA, and VA, all high cost of living states that won't adjust state MW.
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Orange Blooded [4609]
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I'd be good with raising it to $10, or raising over time -
Feb 11, 2021, 9:57 AM
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how did doubling it become a thing?
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Hall of Famer [24670]
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The proposal includes "raising it over time'... How much
Feb 11, 2021, 10:02 AM
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and how soon have always been the problem...
Who thinks injecting money into the hands of wage earners across the country is less productive than increasing some billionaire's stock portfolio?
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: The proposal includes "raising it over time'... How much
Feb 11, 2021, 10:45 AM
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I don't mean to talk down to anyone, but in macroeconomics there is this thing called the money multiplier effect. In short, it indicates that every dollar added to working people's pay has a multiplied effect on the economy. The wage earner spends it at a restaurant - who spends it to but food supplies - who spends it on furniture for their family - etc.
If you want to boost the economy, put money INTO the economy - not the stock market.
Sorry, if y'all already knew all that, but I am often surprised at the number of people who do not.
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All-In [40656]
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The people making minimum wage
Feb 11, 2021, 11:01 AM
[ in reply to The proposal includes "raising it over time'... How much ] |
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past the age of 22 will NEVER be the ones to actually make a difference in society or use the extra money they earn to make a difference in the world. Minimum wage workers do not drive innovation, even at $15. The mindset in that income bracket is different than the mindset of someone making $25-$40+ an hour. If they have an added influx of money into their pockets, are they going to pay down their debt and change their savings habits? Absolutely not. They're going to buy an xbox, a new car with a higher payment, get a nicer apartment that they can hardly afford.
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Heisman Winner [137751]
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Pretty broad brush you're painting with there, friend.***
Feb 11, 2021, 11:16 AM
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All-In [40656]
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I feel confident painting that brush
Feb 11, 2021, 11:23 AM
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I see it first hand with someone close in my friend group. They have thousands of dollars in credit card debt, a house that's falling apart that they won't fix, newish cars, brand new iphones. What did he do with his stimulus? He bought the new xbox. Two years ago, they got a pretty large tax return. What did they do with it? Went to Hawaii and spent every dime of it before paying off debt.
It's not an attack on the person/people as a whole. I haven't been in their position before and I hope I never am, but minimum wage workers should not be coddled by simply raising the minimum wage. They're just going to remain in debt, but elevate their material wealth because they have a few more bucks to buy a phone, or a nicer apartment, or a new car because they can afford a down payment and get lucky with a 7% car loan.
I am all for raising the minimum wage. When and how often is the conundrum. It 100% should not be $7.25. But it also 100% should not be $15 an hour. Living wages should not be offered to guys and gals flipping burgers. Want to know why? They aren't worth $15 an hour. If that is a true "living wage", which I don't think it is, then it gives them incentive to stay where they are rather than advancing their standing in life.
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Heisman Winner [137751]
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I think it's interesting how "burger flipping" is the
Feb 11, 2021, 11:38 AM
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de facto example of "MINIMUM WAGE JOBS AREN'T WORTH $15!!!", when there are thousands of other MW jobs that people do every day. Office admins usually make MW.
Your confidence about what a large cross-section of people would do with extra income is based on...an anecdote about a specific friend. Cool.
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All-In [40656]
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So minimum wage helps out secretaries and office assistants
Feb 11, 2021, 11:56 AM
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But by helping out folks who's job is definitely worth more than minimum wage, you're going to be dragging a lot of people that truly don't have a job worth $15 an hour up to that minimum.
I think at the end of the day, it boils down to business profits, unfortunately. If we could trust someone to pay their assistant the appropriate wage, then this problem would be solved. But by putting a backstop in at $15 an hour for someone that deserves $15 an hour, you're propping up someone that doesn't deserve that money (fast food workers). By raising the minimum wage by 2x, you're also killing the value of wage earners who are making at that range right now. You need to laterally add that value to anyone elses jobs, or they lose their incentive to be worth their previous value.
And, @19B, I think you and I agree on the end goal on this one, its just how to get here safely and effectively for the entire workforce.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: I feel confident painting that brush
Feb 11, 2021, 12:28 PM
[ in reply to I feel confident painting that brush ] |
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I am going to say this again,
In a land as rich and productive as America,
EVERY PERSON WHO WORKS FULL TIME DESERVES A LIVING WAGE - THEY SHOULD NOT BE FORCED TO LIVE IN POVERTY !!
You guys can argue details as long as you want, but this statement stands on its own and any discussion that doesn't start here is just I-got-mine bullyshit.
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Rock Defender [53]
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This is where you go wrong
Feb 11, 2021, 12:36 PM
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Heisman Winner [137751]
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Not everybody has the capability to do so, and that's what
Feb 11, 2021, 12:56 PM
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every person who says "all you have to do is improve yourself" is missing. There are 350,000,000 people in this country. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that 10% of them simply don't have the mental capabilities or faculties to do more than menial or repetitive work. If the average IQ is 100 (it's not, let's be honest), is it hard to believe that 10% of people are something around 80 or less? Those aren't managers or leaders, and never will be (and let's not pretend that intelligence is required to be a leader either, but it helps). A conservative 10% puts the number in this country around 30M people. Not just HS kids using jobs as stepping stones, but people who won't be able to achieve more than a simple job due to personal limitations that they don't have control over.
Do they not deserve something ever so slightly north of "poverty"? I guess not.
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All-In [40656]
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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LOL, yes, industry is flocking to those places with high
Feb 11, 2021, 9:58 AM
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minimum wages.
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All-In [31830]
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How many people are making the min wage in PA, NH, and VA...
Feb 11, 2021, 9:59 AM
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and for how long?
I think the how many and how long question is the most pertinent.
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Oculus Spirit [78823]
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someone pays for the increased minimum wage
Feb 11, 2021, 9:59 AM
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and it is not the corporations
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Heisman Winner [137751]
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Correct. Part of the problem is that when Wal Mart MW
Feb 11, 2021, 10:09 AM
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employees need government assistance, we pay for that, not Wal Mart.
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Oculus Spirit [78823]
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not what I was saying
Feb 11, 2021, 10:36 AM
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but close
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All-In [46768]
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That's what a lot of conservatives don't get
Feb 11, 2021, 11:04 AM
[ in reply to Correct. Part of the problem is that when Wal Mart MW ] |
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the MW is already around 20-24/hr. Businesses pay for the 7.25, and government assistance pays for the rest.
They want people off the government doll but don't want to make businesses pay a wage high enough for them to be off the government doll.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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says the guy that wants his student debt forgiven
Feb 11, 2021, 11:08 AM
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Who do you think is paying for all of this?
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All-In [46768]
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Me. Joe Taxpayer
Feb 11, 2021, 11:18 AM
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We already have a ton of money taken out of our checks each month. Stop sending it to a bloated military budget so little brown kids can be blown up half the world away and start using it to help the american taxpayer who is already paying for it.
America first right?
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Heisman Winner [137751]
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You don't support our trillion dollar (annually) military?
Feb 11, 2021, 11:41 AM
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You must really hate America.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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The idea that someone should be able
Feb 11, 2021, 10:01 AM
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to flip burgers and pay rent or even a mortgage is the problem. Flipping burgers is a low wage, low skill position. This is typically temporary employment as you work another job or go to school. Doing that type of job was never meant to sustain a family or get you a new car.
I think that is the problem and where people get lost.
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110%er [7181]
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#### you restaurant workers!!!***
Feb 11, 2021, 10:03 AM
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Lot o points [155581]
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10/10 cac post....slow clap.
Feb 11, 2021, 10:05 AM
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0 logic, 100 emotion. Get em, tiger.
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All-In [34518]
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yep, he always show his stupidity. he thinks restaurants
Feb 11, 2021, 10:17 AM
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can pay that and stay in business.
####, why are the idiot liberals even talking about this right now? Dont they know we are in the midst of the most deadly disease ever on earth? He11fire, the restaurants and small businesses are closed down and now they want to up the minimum wage?
Youve got to be a stupid liberal Nazi to think that way.
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All-In [46768]
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How many resturants went out of business when
Feb 11, 2021, 10:19 AM
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MW went from 4.96 to 7.25 in 2 years?
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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Lot o points [155581]
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Re: So restaurants are just like a few people x $5-$7/hour
Feb 11, 2021, 11:03 AM
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Orange Blooded [4695]
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All-In [43521]
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Payroll expenses are a very small portion of the composition
Feb 11, 2021, 2:49 PM
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of end product prices.
Payroll expenses doubled does not equal end product price doubled. Not even close.
You should know better than that.
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Orange Blooded [4695]
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No you actually don't know what you're talking about.
Feb 11, 2021, 2:55 PM
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Payroll expenses are giant, it's not just the hourly wage that impacts the cost of payroll. You've got payroll taxes, healthcare, workers comp insurance (that's based on payroll $$). It all adds up. Food prices can fluctuate greatly so you've got to have that built into your pricing.
Restaurants that employ minimum wage workers operate on thing margins... they make money by selling volume.
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All-In [43521]
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Yeah I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Feb 11, 2021, 3:23 PM
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And I know exactly what goes into labor costs. A typical rule of thumb is that labor costs are under a third of total revenue for a restaurant owner.
Healthcare isn't offered by many restaurants. In fact 90% of them have under 50 employees and aren't required to do so.
Workers comp isn't required for many restaurants, depending of course on the number of above the table non-ownership folks they employ.
Many restaurants, especially locally owned non-franchised ones pay MANY of their workers under the table, in particular back-of-the-house folks.
Even so, let's assume a big mac (using your example) costs $5. And a third of that expense is labor. And now let's double the labor expense. Big mac costs $6.67.
Heck, double it AGAIN for shids and giggles. How you getting to $10?
I'll say it again and you go ahead and refute it with math. Please.
DOUBLE PAYROLL DOES NOT EQUAL DOUBLE CONSUMER PRICES FOR RESTAURANTS. NOT IN ANY OF THEM. NARY A SINGLE RESTAURANT. NOWHERE IN AMERICA.
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All-In [43521]
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And hey, I will agree that increases will be passed back to
Feb 11, 2021, 3:24 PM
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the consumer. Has to. Owners have to make a living. I get that. Totally. It just won't be passed back in the dramatic way that some want to portray it.
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Lot o points [155581]
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This will take me 30 seconds to prove your math wrong.
Feb 11, 2021, 4:17 PM
[ in reply to Yeah I know exactly what I'm talking about. ] |
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You're using $5 as the X variable. A Big Mac is $3.99. YOU'VE SCREWED UP THE FORMULA BEFORE YOU'VE EVEN GOTTEN TO THE SECOND VARIABLE. DERRRRRRRRRR!
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Orange Blooded [4695]
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Your ability to google your average rule of thumb labor
Feb 11, 2021, 4:21 PM
[ in reply to Yeah I know exactly what I'm talking about. ] |
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costs don't mean #### in an actual restaurant.
And arguing that restaurants pay their employees under the table, lol.
I don't recall arguing that anything was doubled. You're missing the big picture.
You can't minimum wage go up $5-$7 and not expect consequences... higher prices, fewer jobs, or restaurants closing.
That on top of states forcing restaurants to be closed or at a lower capacity currently... who in their right mind goes into the restaurant business now. So decreased competition causes... wait for it... HIGHER PRICES.
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All-In [43521]
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Hey, I mean a simple inference based on your
Feb 11, 2021, 4:40 PM
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comment about a $10 big mac was made. I mean a big mac would have to double (or more) in price to get to $10 on average in America right?
Let me add some context:
I've owned a restaurant. I'm partner in multiple restaurants currently. I know many, MANY other restaurant owners. I know what labor costs. If google also knows, FANTASTIC. I also understand that labor for some concepts cost more than for others. I'm using what I think to be averages based on my experience. And that average is under a third of revenues.
I can tell you without qualification that many restaurants pay workers under the table. I mean you would only really know if you've paid folks that way, know folks that pay that way, or know folks that are paid that way. Applebees? Nope. Outback? Nope. McDonalds? Nope. I'm talking about the xyz cafe. I'm talking about los tacos local mexican joint. I'm talking about 2guys barbeque. Suzies meat and 3. Smaller, local, one/two unit restaurants. LOTS of them do it.
I certainly do agree that there will be impact. No doubt about that. That said, the restaurant industry is mobile and will figure it out. At the end of the day there will always be demand for restaurants. The biggest impact will be on you taking your family or me taking mine out to eat. We will pay more. I don't really think it will be THAT dramatic though, going back to a $10 big mac.
Heck, even during "shutdowns" many of the restaurant owners I know were even MORE profitable than before. How? A small reduction in labor costs, slightly increased prices, moving more towards bulk to-go orders, and backfilling that with owners rolling sleeves up and working in the kitchen. And I provide this as just an example of demand remaining high and the industry being mobile.
On average and in general, I really don't believe that an increase in minimum wage is without consequence. I also don't believe it will result in anything catastrophic for the industry.
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Hall of Famer [24670]
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110%er [7181]
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All-In [40868]
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All-In [29036]
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Interesting
Feb 11, 2021, 10:18 AM
[ in reply to The idea that someone should be able ] |
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That sounds quite like "I'd like this job to be done, but I don't think the person who does it should be able to pay to live anywhere." That's a weird (or cruel) way of thinking to me.
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Rock Defender [53]
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but in reality
Feb 11, 2021, 4:41 PM
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Oculus Spirit [97649]
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You would be amazed to find the rent cost to burger flipping
Feb 11, 2021, 10:41 AM
[ in reply to The idea that someone should be able ] |
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salary difference is basically the same in New York and Mississippi. Even though the dollars earned are greater in NY, so are the expenses, which offsets any tangible gains in standard of living.
However, the danger is debt is based on the value of our dollar (inflation/deflation). We have a debt problem, top to bottom and left to right and front to back. As such, even though those rates of pay have little impact on your standard of living, they have a HUGE impact on how much your minimum credit card payment will be, and the interest credit cards charge you, and the mortgage rate on your house, the cost of your student loans, the cost of attending college, the cost of gas, etc.
THAT is where the economy tanks, and no one is better off anyway.
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Hall of Famer [24670]
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Sell everything, stash the cash, max a dozen credit cards...
Feb 11, 2021, 6:14 PM
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and declare bankruptcy... It's the American Way.
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All-In [43521]
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Full time restaurant workers should NOT be able to
Feb 11, 2021, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to The idea that someone should be able ] |
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pay rent, but SHOULD be able to pay tuition? And full time restaurant workers should have to work a 2nd job in order to pay rent?
What kind of bullshidd concept is this, MR SMALL BUSINESS CHAMPION?
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: The idea that someone should be able
Feb 11, 2021, 10:48 AM
[ in reply to The idea that someone should be able ] |
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Manac
Sorry, but I could not disagree more. That is just some bullyshitt excuse to denegrate some people.
I don't car if all you are capable of doing is flipping burgers or digging ditches. ANYONE who works forty hours a week should NOT be living in poverty - not in a country as productive and well-off as ours.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: The idea that someone should be able
Feb 11, 2021, 12:31 PM
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T3,
If you had ever had to birth a child, I don't think you would use the term pop out a kid. I also don't think that $3000 was some kind of sweet deal for doing it.
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110%er [7181]
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I live on the DC/VA line and it is a good case study
Feb 11, 2021, 10:06 AM
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in how raising the minimum wage is a perfectly fine thing to do. Also, $15/hour is basically still in poverty. We need to find a minimum wage that's a living wage and automatically adjust it for inflation. I'd be all for tying it to some cost of living metric as well.
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All-In [31830]
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Oh...and I believe the Federal Gov has absolutely no place..
Feb 11, 2021, 10:08 AM
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to force a minimum wage for non-federal workers.
I don't believe it is granted that power in the Constitution. I think the assumption of that power is a mischaracterization of Article I Section 8 Clause 3...I think the power is for interstate commerce and intrastate commerce.
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All-In [46768]
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MW may not be in the constitution, but it is in the
Feb 11, 2021, 10:15 AM
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FLSA.
Something can be required without being the constitution.
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All-In [31830]
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Well no, it really can't (or shouldn't)...
Feb 11, 2021, 10:19 AM
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I'm not saying the Constituion has to spell out something specially, but the federal law should be constrained by the powers granted to it in the Constitution. FLSA has many parts to it that I think are unconstitutional.
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All-In [46768]
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And that's fine. Conservatives hate FDR
Feb 11, 2021, 10:21 AM
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but the law is the law and there is no USSC ruling stating it was unconstitutional.
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All-In [31830]
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Sure...didn't say there was....but doesn't mean that...
Feb 11, 2021, 11:01 AM
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an increase/change in a federal min wage can't be fought against based on economic theory and constitutionality concerns.
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All-In [46768]
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If accounting for inflation, MW should be around 22-24/hr
Feb 11, 2021, 10:12 AM
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I agree with not raising it to that all at once. That would be a huge shock to many businesses.
We raised MW incrementally from 2007-2009. Then we didn't do #### with it for a decade.
I'm for raising it incrementally over the course of the next few years. Once it is accurate again, tie it to inflation and leave it the hell alone.
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All-In [34518]
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MW is not supposed to be a living wage. Try to get that thru
Feb 11, 2021, 10:19 AM
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yer schkull
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All-In [46768]
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Yes it is. That was the whole point of the FLSA by FDR
Feb 11, 2021, 10:20 AM
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I'm sure you were around during this time. You should know.
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All-In [31830]
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Depends on what you mean by that...
Feb 11, 2021, 10:31 AM
[ in reply to MW is not supposed to be a living wage. Try to get that thru ] |
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the original MW pushed by FDR certainly was sold/positioned as MW should be a living wage
“no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”
Now, should it be a living wage based on 40 hrs/week for one adult in today's world is another question. I would say no...but it's not right to say it was never supposed to be.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Depends on what you mean by that...
Feb 11, 2021, 10:52 AM
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Flow,
So us single people are screwed ??
In a country as rich and as productive in America, the minimum wage should keep every single person working out of poverty.
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All-In [31830]
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Well, I think if you are single...
Feb 11, 2021, 11:05 AM
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and working a MW job, then you should be prepared to work more than 40 hrs a week or more than 1 job and to have a roommate(s), etc...
Not forever and hopefully not for long and you work your way to a better paying job.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Well, I think if you are single...
Feb 11, 2021, 12:36 PM
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flow
2 things
1. As a teacher in public schools, I have been exposed to good, solid kids that just weren't capable of much more than MW jobs regardless of external motivations. What happens to them ?
2. Wouldn't one be more likely to be able to seek out more training or education to increase one's earnings if they were making a livable wage rather than living in poverty - with no time or money to spare ?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Well, I think if you are single...
Feb 11, 2021, 12:45 PM
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Heisman Winner [137751]
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Sooooo....
Feb 11, 2021, 2:47 PM
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"funding job training at the expense of the government". Isn't that kinda what college is?
Sunufabitch, turns out, you're one of them socialists after all.
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All-In [31830]
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A few replies...
Feb 11, 2021, 2:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Well, I think if you are single... ] |
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1) Then they're probably going to have to work more than 40 hrs per week when they are young. Wage will increase with experience and will also make them more marketable to other employers. Also, in my experience, the best kind of training for these level employees normally comes in the form of on-the-job-training.
2) I suppose that depends a lot on the specific situation. As I said above, the fastest and most applicable training for people working for MW comes from experience/tenure in their current position.
As I mentioned in another post, I think we always have to keep in mind how many people are actually working at the prevailing federal min wage and how long they work for that wage.
The best data I can find from 2019 shows that there are about 142MM workers that make a salary or an hourly wage. Of those workers, 82.3MM get paid an hourly wage. Of THOSE workers 392,000 people earn the federal min wage of $7.25/hr. That is 0.27% of all workers or 4.7% of hourly wage workers. That also makes no adjustment for overt-time, benefits, etc...
There are a number of studies that show MW workers normally don't earn MW for very long.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: A few replies...
Feb 11, 2021, 2:24 PM
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All-In [31830]
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not handy...I've got something somewhere...
Feb 11, 2021, 2:53 PM
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from GA DOL on GA stats on wage distribution and comparison to national stats, but I can't find it quickly at the moment.
The data is pretty hard to present because of trying to account for the difference in hours worked.
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110%er [7181]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Why is it so hard to admit
Feb 11, 2021, 12:50 PM
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Orange Blooded [4695]
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Legend [15730]
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Legend [15730]
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CBO, not BCO.***
Feb 11, 2021, 10:32 AM
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All-In [46768]
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Oculus Spirit [97649]
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It's all relative.
Feb 11, 2021, 10:33 AM
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Everything just offsets if you screw with minimum wage. It won't tank the economy, BUT it will make inflation happen  And THAT can very easily tank the economy.
I remember in Switzerland (world's most expensive Big Mac) meeting a bartender at our hotel. He was from Miami and was a student at some hotel school in the town. ANYWAY, he made $19/hr. I was amazed. That's incredibly high pay for bartending. He then explained it's not really any different. A Big Mac across the street was like a half hour of his wages. Same as in Miami bartending. His housing was half as nice, and cost twice as much. Overall, he said the situation is no different than in Miami making half what he was making in Switzerland. The same applies here.
Those states with high minimum wages, they also have high housing costs, food costs, gas costs, etc. They make more money, sure, but that's offset by increased costs of living. The mouth breather in New York can't fathom how someone can live on $7.25 an hour in Mississippi. The mouth breather in Mississippi thinks life must be amazing for those in NY making $14/hr. NOPE. SAME level of living.
HOWEVER, if you increase the wages nationwide, that simply means the things you buy with that minimum wage (or produce) will go up in price accordingly. So you get a $8 big Mac. You get more expensive gas. Real estate prices and rents climb. EVERYTHING offsets. Your standard of living and subsequent "happiness" remains unchanged.
HOWEVER, the main problem with raising minimum wage (and it WILL NOT be raised to $15/hr) is that it causes inflation in prices of everyday goods, and those goods produced at minimum wage, or closer to it, are key components of the CPI. Something as broadly applied as a minimum wage, especially as high as $15, means you will not avoid inflation. It will happen. And that's bad, REALLY bad. Which is why this will never happen. Some liberal states may keep raising it more and more buying votes but no higher standard of living, but as a nation we can't afford our debt with people making $15/hr. PLUS, it will cause a rush of illegal immigrants as well. See, they keep pressure lower on raising the minimum wage. They leverage the dollar sending money back home. But over decades the returns on the dollar exchange are less for them because their home countries have gained so many dollars. So the depreciation of the dollar base don a higher minimum wage negates the added benefit of the higher dollar amount when they send money back home.
Nope. The dollar is our most precious asset as a nation. We will never do anything to devalue it as we have spent 40 years drawing debt on its value. NOPE, nope, nope.
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110%er [7181]
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A Big Mac in DC is $3.99***
Feb 11, 2021, 10:38 AM
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Oculus Spirit [97649]
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Its not that I dont care about the people
Feb 11, 2021, 10:52 AM
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CAC made a huge stretch on that one. Its the fact that people believe, as you see in this thread, that someone working at Wal-Mart in a non-salary position, should use that as a sole source of income. People need to be motivated to do better, work hard and gain that next level of being a floor lead or as a manager, etc.. Those jobs just are not designed to be a job that supply's the income to feed 3 people in an apartment.
These jobs are meant to help you get on your feet or to make extra income. I hired all kinds of people when working in retail. I had one guy who worked the gun counter, he worked for the City Power and Light and needed the extra money as he was having a baby. I had a lady that was a bartender at night and worked 4-5 hours a day to supplement her income. That is what retails is for, not to make 60k a year and have a home with 2 kids and a dog. Now if you want to talk about management roles and team lead roles, sure that is where the $ need to kick in and typically do not, but that is a larger problem with wage gap in middle management in retail.
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All-In [46768]
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Be poor so you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps
Feb 11, 2021, 11:08 AM
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to be a little better than poor.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Its not that I dont care about the people
Feb 11, 2021, 11:09 AM
[ in reply to Its not that I dont care about the people ] |
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Manac
First of all, $15 an hour works out to $30K a year - not $60K.
Secondly, what happens to all of the people who are not capable of advancing (based on circumstances or limitations) in the way that you propose. Do they just get screwed over (or end up on the public dole) for the rest of their lives.
Third, in a country as rich and productive as America, are you saying that we can't afford to pay all of our workers a living wage. Are you saying that a company as rich as Walmart can't afford to pay its workers a wage that can support life ?? Are you saying that all of the money that Walmart generates per year is better concentrated in the hands of 5 Walton's than being more equitably spread out over its 1.5 million employees ?
Finally, do you really think people will become motivated to more productive if you force them (through inadequate wages) to live a compromised life - poor living conditions, poor nutrition, poor healthcare. Is it not more feasible that someone who is earning $15 an hour (and a decent life) would be more motivated and capable of finding a way to make $20 an hour - or $25 an hour ??
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Oculus Spirit [97649]
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Used to be high school kids worked minimum wage jobs
Feb 11, 2021, 11:27 AM
[ in reply to Its not that I dont care about the people ] |
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I mean they have room and board and clothing and food, etc. all paid. Extra spending money. I made $4.25/hr in 1993 making minimum wage.
Now you see 65yo's working those minimum wage jobs, and high school kids, do they even work anymore, other than at Chic-Fil-A?
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110%er [7181]
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Let's try this again
Feb 11, 2021, 10:55 AM
[ in reply to 2013 numbers, but you get the idea ] |
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a quarter pounder w/ cheese is $3.79 in DC vs. $3.79 in Anderson, SC. Minimum wage is $15 in DC and $7.25 in SC. How bout that?
Even if increasing the minimum wage increases prices somewhat (it will), as long as the wage increase is greater than the price increase, people come out ahead.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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your argument is on about a 10th grade economics
Feb 11, 2021, 11:00 AM
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class level. I think you are out of your league on this one. Just sit this one out and argue the next cause that you are championing today.
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110%er [7181]
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Point to my mistake.
Feb 11, 2021, 11:02 AM
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Other than interacting with you.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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All-In [46768]
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I don't think he has the level of economic understanding
Feb 11, 2021, 11:19 AM
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he thinks he does.
Sure he knows his micro. But he's severely lacking on his macro
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: I don't think he has the level of economic understanding
Feb 11, 2021, 12:40 PM
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Coach,
I have talked with people who fancy that they understand economics who don't even realize that there is a difference.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: It's all relative.
Feb 11, 2021, 10:54 AM
[ in reply to It's all relative. ] |
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Tig,
I take your point, but I don't think it is quite that straightforward.
If we tied the MW to a cost of living index, then it might level off to some reasonable balance
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110%er [7181]
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Fairly easy to do as well.
Feb 11, 2021, 10:58 AM
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Things like military BAH or GS pay scales are already tied to locality cost of living.
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110%er [8885]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 10:34 AM
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great argument for states rights
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 10:39 AM
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I don't know what the actual formula would have to be to make this work out fairly, but when the MW is raised it should be automatically tied to the poverty line and the cost of living - so that it is raised automatically every year based on some percentage (say 125%) of the poverty line.
People who work 40 hours a week should NOT be living in poverty, I don't care what they are doing.
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110%er [8885]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 10:58 AM
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great argument for increasing military pay
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 11:21 AM
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ranger,
I don't disagree. The last time I looked about 23,000 military families were eligible for food stamps, and that is probably a low estimate. That is shameful and un-American. So yes, absolutely raise military wages - and use a inflation based formula (higher than the civilian one) to raise it automatically every year. Imagine a person putting their life on the line so that their spouse can get food stamps - bullyshitt.
BTW, using Manac's reasoning (from above) privates shouldn't make a living wage so that they will be motivated to become sergeants, like they wouldn't be motivated to move up the ranks (and the pay scales) if they made enough to actually live on.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 11:37 AM
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 12:23 PM
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T3
That is an interesting take and it makes a decent point.
However, I would rather see Americans being able to EARN a decent living, rather than being on the public dole (which denigrates human dignity and motivation). AND I am willing to pay my share for the equity that that represents.
However, if you are worried about it, I am sure we can readjust the new progressive tax scales to make it all work out properly.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 12:33 PM
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 12:48 PM
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T3
Actually, I am very concerned about the people who might be unemployed. There should be efforts to ameliorate their strife.
OTOH, I am not worried about the economy. I think it will be stronger in the long run for having created a living wage.
And it is not just the human dignity (that you so disdain that you put it in quotes) that is involved here. It is the general idea of establishing a decent standard of living for American workers and the promotion of the American work ethic.
It is also about instituting a sense of American equity throughout our society. And yes, it is worth that.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: rAiSiNg MiNiMuM wAgE wIlL tAnK tHe EcOnOmY
Feb 11, 2021, 12:57 PM
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All-In [46768]
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I would love to hear your take on Supply and demand curves
Feb 11, 2021, 1:00 PM
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especially price equilibrium when combining the two curves and how a livable wage would affect the equilibrium
Of course make sure that you are using macroeconomic models and not microeconomic models
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110%er [7181]
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All-In [49145]
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Virginia is raising the minimum wage.
Feb 11, 2021, 10:55 AM
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it was supposed to go into effect 1/1/21, but has been postponed to 5/1/21. Goes to $9.50. Then $11.00 on 1/1/22.
I think it needs to be raised, but not until economy improves.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Virginia is raising the minimum wage.
Feb 11, 2021, 11:21 AM
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It is always the right time to do the right thing. MLK
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CU Medallion [55642]
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Legend [17751]
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sOmEoNe Is ChAnNeLling ThEIR iNner LbB!!!!***
Feb 11, 2021, 12:10 PM
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Legend [17751]
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sOmEoNe Is ChAnNeLling ThEIR iNner LbB!!!!***
Feb 11, 2021, 12:11 PM
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Hall of Famer [22930]
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Pennsyltucky is quite poor between PBGH and Philly
Feb 11, 2021, 2:42 PM
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I was happy for my sister years ago when she announced her company gave her a 25-percent raise.
Turns out I misheard that she received a $0.25 raise. I had long stopped measuring income on an hourly scale by that point.
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All-TigerNet [10866]
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The minimum wage is 0 and it always will be.
Feb 11, 2021, 6:42 PM
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Minimum wage is a racist law that hurts the poor and the minorities the most.
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Heisman Winner [111296]
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Re: The minimum wage is 0 and it always will be.
Feb 11, 2021, 6:47 PM
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what's the punchline?
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All-TigerNet [10866]
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Gotta use your brain to figure that out.***
Feb 11, 2021, 7:03 PM
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Replies: 108
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