Replies: 46
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CU Medallion [73569]
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What sucks about Brownell bb the most is
Feb 4, 2020, 5:04 PM
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Only a few years have we even been in the discussion for the bubble. So basically, by mid Jan, we know there is no chance of makining the tourney. So besides boring type of play, having no chance this early, makes it even more disinteresting.
Shyatt years were worse, but this is getting close.
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Oculus Spirit [81758]
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Oh boy, when Karen sees this........
Feb 4, 2020, 5:06 PM
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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Incoming...
Feb 4, 2020, 5:22 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: What sucks about Brownell bb the most is
Feb 4, 2020, 5:06 PM
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We were never supposed to have a chance at the tournament this year, but I get your frustration. It gets old being average to sucking.
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Legend [15976]
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He just wanted a reason to whine***
Feb 4, 2020, 5:13 PM
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Orange Blooded [2742]
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What sucks is our BB fan base
Feb 4, 2020, 5:11 PM
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We are over-achieving this year, on top of having a lot of injuries, have two solid 4 star players coming in next year, finally have a decent facility. Geez, you guys are amazingly sad.
Your crowd is crickets when we win but the second we lose - play poorly, you feel empowered.
Thankfully we have people that understand our basketball situation and don’t over-react to one loss.
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All-TigerNet [10121]
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See what you are saying - sbrooks ... so - not crickets ..
Feb 4, 2020, 5:34 PM
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.... very often ... -">
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Hall of Famer [22345]
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Like last year with a senior laden team we were supposed to
Feb 4, 2020, 7:09 PM
[ in reply to What sucks is our BB fan base ] |
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be really good but we had some bad luck and stuff.
We consistently over achieve when you consider all of the bad luck and stuff.
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Rock Defender [52]
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Re: What sucks is our BB fan base
Feb 5, 2020, 7:08 AM
[ in reply to What sucks is our BB fan base ] |
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"... and don’t over-react to one loss. " - LOLOLOLOL, One freaking loss? Really? Where have you been the past TEN YEARS?
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110%er [6889]
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110%er [6889]
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Legend [15976]
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Did you honestly think we were going to the NCAA THIS
Feb 4, 2020, 5:13 PM
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season? We were picked 14th in the preseason, but you thought we were going dancing? And it was over in January? Can't make this #### up
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Hall of Famer [22345]
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If people would just lower their expectations they wouldn't
Feb 4, 2020, 7:15 PM
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be so darn disappointed.
Gah-lee.
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Orange Blooded [4341]
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Re: If people would just lower their expectations they wouldn't
Feb 4, 2020, 7:22 PM
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That’s my outlook Chuck. Expect nothing, get a little return and it FEELS like we are winning. B/c feeling like is very important. Expect 5-10 wins and get 12. WINNING!! Lol
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Hall of Famer [21589]
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110%er [7021]
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There is the problem!!
Feb 5, 2020, 4:36 AM
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After 10yrs why are we expecting to be last in conference and so many say, "Well that is what we expected so we are happily surprised because we are 10th!" So when fans are just happy we aren't last, sounds like Coot football and most are not happy with that.
Good coach, bad coach, great coach or whatever? I like Brownell but his coaching style is boring as heck, his recruiting has been weak, and him maintaining a functional team atmosphere is severely lacking. Whether through injuries, transfers out or in continuously, the fans not getting to build their enthusiasm and support by watching players develop like in the past.
Amir Simms is winning the hearts of bball fans after a few yrs, Newman is gaining support and can see Hunter has talent. But there is something lacking within our coaching that just don't have these teams growing as a unit as they continuously checkout regularly.
We have someone like Mack playing and we all wish we had him for another couple yrs because you see fire, but nope! We have to learn names again all over again next year. 4-6 transfers in or out every year sucks from a fan perspective as you dont connect with players.
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CU Medallion [57901]
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All-In [32368]
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What you can't make up is that CBB is responsible for
Feb 5, 2020, 12:43 PM
[ in reply to Did you honestly think we were going to the NCAA THIS ] |
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creating the environment & credentials that lead to a prediction of a overwhelmingly sucky 14th place finish and is then lauded when the team isn't sucking quite that bad.
After 10 years, it's not like someone is saying HERE - you have to make chicken salad from this supplied watermelon rind.
He's had TEN YEARS to gather the right ingredients & keep the thing rolling.
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Legend [16752]
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Re: Did you honestly think we were going to the NCAA THIS
Feb 5, 2020, 4:58 PM
[ in reply to Did you honestly think we were going to the NCAA THIS ] |
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So a 10th year head coach having his program on such poor footing that its projected 14th in the conference (the worst power 5 conference according to NET and RPI btw) is where you think we should be? Because you seem to be defending exactly that. Or is it understandable to have to have a major rebuild after a first round NIT exit? Brownell is also being paid top 30 in the country for those performances. But I guess we definitely can’t afford better.
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CU Medallion [57901]
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Shyatt years were worse, but this is dragging on and
Feb 4, 2020, 8:44 PM
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on and may soon top the Shyatt years based on that alone.
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All-In [43432]
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Perhaps what you consider boring basketball isn’t boring to other people.
Feb 4, 2020, 10:43 PM
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Maybe there are interesting things occurring on the court that you don’t recognize or appreciate.
For example, I think the offenses we ran under Danny Ford were super boring. I thought they were too slow paced, too predictable, too cautious, and sometimes just lazy. However, I’ve talked to people who know a lot more than I do about football, and many of them consider an option offense to be a thing of beauty. They appreciate the subtleties I cannot.
A lot of people would probably think our offense was more exciting if we shot 3s better. We typically get good shots now, we just don’t make enough of them. If we made 40% instead of 30% from beyond the arc, fans would call it exciting basketball. At the end of the day, coaches have to put players in a position to get good shots on offense, and offensive players have to make shots. This year, we haven’t made enough shots. Hard to blame our coaches for that.
Since you think our style of play is boring, what would you like to see instead?
Message was edited by: Judge Keller®
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Rock Defender [52]
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Re: Perhaps what you consider boring basketball isn’t boring to other people.
Feb 5, 2020, 7:11 AM
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" Hard to blame our coaches for that." - Now that is where I have to strongly disagree. Good coaches recruit better, and coach better, and make adjustments better. Well heck, they do everything better than what we've seen for 10 years.
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All-In [43432]
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Well, he is recruiting better
Feb 5, 2020, 12:54 PM
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now that he has reasonable facilities (you know, an actual full court practice facility, a weight room that's actually better than most high school weight rooms, etc.) and the coaching staff he wants (not just the bare minimum). He didn't have both of these in place until a few years ago. Now we are seeing the importance of these things when it comes to recruiting.
Contrary to popular belief, recruiting isn't just about having a good personality and salesmanship. It's much more than that, and asking any coach to overcome bad facilities and limited staff - especially at a football school with a horrible basketball history - is right up there with playing the lottery to get rich.
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Oculus Spirit [81758]
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Heisman Winner [139135]
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Why...
Feb 5, 2020, 11:10 AM
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You don’t believe he’s talked to people who know a lot more than him about football?
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All-In [43432]
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Don't worry, it wasn't the same people I discussed
Feb 5, 2020, 12:55 PM
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orange overalls with.
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Oculus Spirit [81758]
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Chin up chap.
Feb 5, 2020, 5:20 PM
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One day those fancy folks will stop snickering at you behind your back.
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110%er [6889]
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Re: Perhaps what you consider boring basketball isn’t boring to other people.
Feb 5, 2020, 12:47 PM
[ in reply to Perhaps what you consider boring basketball isn’t boring to other people. ] |
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Ha The good ‘ol “you don’t know anything about basketball” argument
How about a coach that can teach our players to make free throws? and run an offense the will produce high percentage shot opportunities? How about a guy that can put a consistent solid product on the court instead of these wild highs and lows ? How about a guy who has a plan instead of just someone who shows up for work?
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All-In [43432]
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I never said that he doesn't know anything about basketball.
Feb 5, 2020, 1:05 PM
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In fact, I asked him what he does consider a more exciting style of play. I think it's fair to let him explain his rationale, and I look forward to reading it if he responds.
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All-In [43432]
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A coach who can teach our players to make free throws?
Feb 5, 2020, 1:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Perhaps what you consider boring basketball isn’t boring to other people. ] |
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Here are our free throw percentages under Brad Brownell:
2018-2019: .732 2017-2018: .755 2016-2017: .731 2015-2016: .723 2014-2015: .682 2013-2014: .744 2012-2013: .654 2011-2012: .670 2010-2011: .701
For reference, here was our free throw shooting under Purnell:
2009-2010: .661 2008-2009: .688 2007-2008: .623 2006-2007: .578 2005-2006: .617 2004-2005: .601 2003-2004: .631
Here was our free throw shooting under Larry Shyatt:
2002-2003: .657 2001-2002: .626 2000-2001: .702 1999-2000: .671 1998-1999: .620
Here was our free throw shooting under Rick Barnes:
1997-1998: .614 1996-1997: .680 1995-1996: .659 1994-1995: .696
And under Cliff Ellis:
1993-1994: .648 1992-1993: .666 1991-1992: .597 1990-1991: .626 1989-1990: .609
As you can see, over the past 30 years, we have had some horrendous free throw shooting teams. But Brad's teams have bucked that trend big time. The six best free throw shooting teams over the past 30 years have come in Brad's tenure.
We are currently shooting .665 this year, which is worse than usual under Brad but better than most years under Purnell. However, since our poor stretch against Duke (.500), NC State (.391), and Wake Forest (.389) which brought our season average down from .690 to .650, we have improved considerably. In the three games since, we've shot .750 against Louisville, .833 against Syracuse, and .667 against Wake.
This is a great example of fans whining, complaining, and exaggerating things. As history shows, Brad does teach his players to shoot free throws. I've assembled 30 years of data showing you that he does that much better than any of the four coaches who preceded him, yet you and others use a several game stretch this year as your basis for saying that he doesn't coach his players to shoot free throws. It makes me wonder whether you actually care about the truth, or if you are more concerned about firing shots at our coach (even if they are blatantly false).
Regarding your other comments:
-We don't have "wild highs and lows" any more than 98% of other college basketball programs do. The fact of the matter is that 18-22 year-olds are going to have good nights and bad nights. Except for the handful of teams that have top talent, you will see that every team has games where they play above their heads as well as games where they play poorly. Heck, even Duke lost to Stephen F. Austin this year. No team is going to play consistently well every game. Expecting them to will set you up for disappointment.
-I'm not sure what you expect from our offense. Do you want layups every play? Shots inside the paint every play? A large majority of our shots are open shots. Sometimes players will have a guy near them or on them, but it is still a make-able shot. Of course we sometimes take a bad shot, either due to a player forcing something or us having to rush a shot at the end of the shot clock. From my perspective, we don't take more bad shots than most other teams. We just need to make more of them. That comes from recruiting better shooters (which Brad has the last couple of cycles) and players putting up more shots on their own time.
-As for your last question - huh?!? A coach who has a plan instead of just showing up for work? I'm not sure why you think Brad just shows up and goofs around, doing the bare minimum. Our players frequently mention how hard he works and how passionate he is about his job. That should be obvious when you watch him coach during a game. If you can't see it, perhaps you are doing your best to see a negative that isn't there.
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Commissioner [963]
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All-In [27366]
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All-In [43432]
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But we are winning.
Feb 5, 2020, 1:25 PM
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Plus Duke, Syracuse, etc. this year.
These exaggerations on here about our basketball program are getting old.
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110%er [8681]
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Re: But we are winning.
Feb 5, 2020, 1:36 PM
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Do you have a graphic for the coach with the most losses in school history as well?
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All-In [43432]
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Congratulations!
Feb 5, 2020, 4:03 PM
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You are one of Clemson basketball's top fans.
Please continue to spread your positivity and support of our program.
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110%er [8681]
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Re: Congratulations!
Feb 5, 2020, 4:38 PM
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What's wrong? You brought up his wins, it's only right to talk about his losses. Also, I'm still waiting on your response to my question below about when we can finally start to hold a coach accountable for his players not executing, because appearantly 300+ games is not enough.
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Heisman Winner [139135]
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That is correct, he’s got a .568 winning percentage...
Feb 5, 2020, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to But we are winning. ] |
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Higher than the .540 winning percentage Will Muschamp enjoys, but behind Tommy Bowden’s .615.
But I would like nothing more than for CBB’s winning percentage to continue to climb. I wouldn’t even mind him reaching .755, and passing those boring & lazy Danny Ford teams.
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All-In [43432]
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Football board is that way. -->
Feb 5, 2020, 4:04 PM
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110%er [8681]
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Re: Perhaps what you consider boring basketball isn’t boring to other people.
Feb 5, 2020, 1:15 PM
[ in reply to Perhaps what you consider boring basketball isn’t boring to other people. ] |
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At what year can we begin to blame the coaches for not making enough shots? Year 11, 12, or 13? Because the last 10 years its been a problem more often than not. Players have came and gone, but the man in charge hasn't.
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All-In [43432]
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The coach is always responsible for how his players perform.
Feb 5, 2020, 4:58 PM
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When the player isn't performing as we want him to, we must ask if he has the ability/talent to reach our level of expectation for him. In many cases throughout our basketball history, the answer to that question is no. We often have players who are not as talented as the man he's going up against. In those cases, coaching and effort can make up for some deficiencies, but sometimes that isn't enough.
The coach is responsible for recruiting, coaching, and motivation. We must make sure we are giving our coach all he needs to do that. Does he have the facilities he needs to help with recruiting? Does he have the assistant coaches and others on his team he needs to recruit, coach, and help in running the program? If not, we better make sure he does before we expect him to work miracles.
Brad just received adequate facilities and budget for his staff a couple of years ago. He's still responsible for the teams he fielded during those 6-7 years prior to that, but it's hard to be mad at the guy when he didn't even have a full court practice facility, and his administration was spending less on basketball than almost every other ACC team. Despite that, we still finished middle of the pack on average and were very competitive. That tells me a lot about his coaching ability and motivational abilities.
Since getting upgraded facilities and a higher budget for his staff, we've seen two 20-win seasons in a row. One of these was one of the best seasons we've ever had (Sweet 16). We signed a nice class last year, and this year's class coming in later this year is Brad's best. So wins are up and recruiting is improving.
So yes, Brownell is responsible for the results, but I have a hard time calling for his firing right now when I am fully aware that he's been at a huge disadvantage for most of his tenure here. The bottm line is this: I don't think it's fair to succeed at a high level when they aren't given the necessary tools to do that.
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Legend [16752]
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Re: The coach is always responsible for how his players perform.
Feb 5, 2020, 5:01 PM
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Except when it is Brad Brownell, then it doesn’t matter.
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110%er [9584]
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All-In [43432]
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Wide open threes are generally good shots.
Feb 5, 2020, 4:05 PM
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And defenses aren't laying off of our shooters and giving us wide open looks. A lot movement, cuts, and screens generally happen to get guys open.
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110%er [9584]
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Not when you shoot a low percentage....
1
Feb 5, 2020, 5:21 PM
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...and don’t follow your shot, so you can get back and play defense.
Put me on the court, and I’ll bet they’d give me plenty of open looks, too. (but at least I would try to get the rebound when I miss)
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110%er [7066]
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this is close to the Shyatt years?? You weren’t here
Feb 4, 2020, 10:48 PM
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For the Shyatt years then. We were no where close to mid pack in the ACC under Shyatt. Dont just make stuff up dude.
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All-In [43432]
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So true!***
Feb 4, 2020, 11:09 PM
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Legend [16752]
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Re: this is close to the Shyatt years?? You weren’t here
Feb 5, 2020, 5:01 PM
[ in reply to this is close to the Shyatt years?? You weren’t here ] |
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Shyatt coached against a much more competitive ACC. Anyone who thinks there is any comparison wasn’t actually watching then or isn’t watching now.
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