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Hall of Famer [20518]
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We do not need our 2018 QB to be Deshaun Watson
Jul 19, 2018, 12:55 PM
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In 2016, we won it all because we had the best player in college football in Deshaun Watson - and a pretty durn good team behind him. I will never in a million years say there wasn't talent there - there was. But players 2-85 (well, maybe players 3-85, because they had no answer for Mike Williams either), Alabama was, man for man, more talented than us. But ultimately Deshaun reminded us once again nothing can tilt a contest more than the QB...and the Tide couldn't stop Deshaun.
The 2018 team doesn't need a Deshaun Watson to win it all, IMHO. The talent gap between us and Alabama has closed, perhaps even - for the moment - tilted in our favor. Nobody in college football has our D-line...not even Alabama. (Honestly, I don't think it's close this year.) Our DB corps looks a little thin but it's also very talented and we're adding two very good cover guys in Kyler McMichael and Mario Goodrich who both look like they've got the size, length, and cover skills to play and contribute immediately, and probably at multiple positions. We should be utterly dominant on D.
Offensively, I think we're better. Where we've improved most is up front - this year's OL could be in a bit of a peak year, with seniors and juniors all the way across - and the skill has, if anything, also improved from 2018. I loved Wayne Gallman but was he equal to the trio of Etienne, Feaster, AND Adam Choice? In a word: no. Mike Williams, Artavis Scott, and Hunter Renfrow were immensely talented at WR for us in 2016...but we still have Renfrow - just two years older - and we have what looks like a 1-for-1 replacement for Scott in Amari Rodgers, and Tee Higgins is showing every sign he's ready to replace Mike Williams. And that's even before you get to the other guys clamoring for time - Trevion Thompson, Diondre Overton, Derion Kendrick.
Jordan Leggett was better than any TE we have in 2018. Probably the one area we've downgraded.
Add it up: we have comparable (or maybe better) receivers than we did even in 2016. Our run game and OL should be upgraded. And our defense is even more dominant.
So we don't need Deshaun Watson to aspire to win it all in 2018. Our one main deficiency last year was our ability to stretch teams vertically and back their safeties out of the box...and it still took Alabama to expose that deficiency; nobody else could, and we played one of the toughest schedules in college football. All we really need is a QB who can stretch the field...be it Trevor Lawrence, or merely an improved Kelly Bryant.
Our coaches have eyes. They know that better than anybody.
Call me a loyalist, though, but while Trevor Lawrence is incredibly impressive and without question flashed more tools in the Spring Game than Kelly Bryant - and will without question take his job if Bryant doesn't improve vertically - I'm also not ready to completely dismiss Bryant's chances. I loved Bryant's quiet swagger, toughness, leadership, attitude, and command of the offense last year even if I didn't always like his throwing, and his improvement from his freshman season has been immense. Again and again and again: despite the fact that Bryant is three years ahead of Lawrence he's actually less experienced as a true thrower...Lawrence played in a spread HUNH for four years in high school in 5A Georgia ball; Bryant only got one year at the 3A-South Carolina level with Wren. Bryant just didn't have the base Lawrence did and I still posit that I don't think he's as good as he's going to get...and everybody who knows him raves about his work ethic.
Bryant doesn't have to be as good a thrower as Lawrence to keep his job, IMHO. He's not the same QB. He occupies the attention of the D with his feet in a way Lawrence - who can scoot but is much less inclined to - does not. He just has to be good enough with his arm to consistently hit those deep throws when they're there and keep the opposing defense honest...and Etienne, Feaster, and Choice will dominate, IMHO. I actually think the RB stable could be the strongest unit on the offense. Etienne in particular looks, to me, like a cross between Andre Ellington and CJ Spiller - he's got Ellington's ability to read the blocks and slash, but then he's got Spiller's jets. That combination is...rare.
Etienne might - might! - be the best player on the team. Which is saying something, considering what else we've got. He's got that Best Ever type potential, whatever.
I think it's unlikely Kelly Bryant beat out Lawrence, mind, but we've bet against Bryant before, and he passed every test last year except the last one against Alabama. It was actually pretty impressive.
So it doesn't have to be Deshaun Watson under center for Clemson to win it all again this year. Either Kelly Bryant just has to be an improved version of himself - one capable of connecting on the deeper throws downfield - or Trevor Lawrence needs to be able to hit a couple long TD throws a game himself and put enough fear into the D to back up...and based on what we've seen of Lawrence thus far, it definitely looks like he can do that. But neither of them have to aspire to those ludicrous 41 TD's and 4,593 yards passing that Deshaun put up in 2016.
Keep in mind Bryant threw for 13 TD's and 2,802 yards last year - and with our improved running game (of which Bryant was a big part, adding 665 yards and 11 TD's with his feet) - we still won the ACC and made the playoffs.
Our starter this year most likely has to halve the distance between those stats - so 25-26 TD's throwing, and 3,700 yards passing - will probably get that done. Averaged over 15 games that's 1.6 TD's a game, and about 245 yard passing per game - both of which would seem more-than-attainable targets, given our talent.
Just my own .02 worth. Actually that was at least ten cents worth, but then, I'm wordy, as many have noted. 
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I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis
Jul 19, 2018, 12:57 PM
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agree on this one. We absolutely need a DW caliber QB to beat Alabama. And saying the talent gap is closed is kind of asinine. They clearly have more depth and talent than we do. They have out recruited us every year, the average ceiling for their players is higher than ours. We can beat them by out coaching them and schemes but the average player talent is statistically higher on Alabama's roster
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Standout [316]
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Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis
Jul 19, 2018, 1:01 PM
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Honestly, I think we just need to be able to stretch the field vertically. The potential down field threat will put more pressure on defenses and we'll have more offensive freedom when we play the big boys. If KB's passing keeps progressing then I'm all in.
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CU Medallion [55284]
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Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis
Jul 20, 2018, 5:59 PM
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In the Bama game and in the spring glorified practice game, KB regressed, and I believe this will continue bc all coaches aren't all dummies. They saw that Bama kept loading the box and didn't let up even when a play down field was made. Pressure, pressure, pressure KB will send him to spiraling backwards to the point of no man's land, then he can't win for losing!!!!
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis
Jul 19, 2018, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis ] |
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agree on this one. We absolutely need a DW caliber QB to beat Alabama. And saying the talent gap is closed is kind of asinine. They clearly have more depth and talent than we do. They have out recruited us every year, the average ceiling for their players is higher than ours. We can beat them by out coaching them and schemes but the average player talent is statistically higher on Alabama's roster
Where?
Do they have better QB's than we do? No.
Better RB's? Usually. But maybe not now. Etienne has Heisman potential.
WR's? Are you kidding?
They're better on OL. Give you that one.
DL? We're WAY ahead. They lost their entire DL to the draft. Our guys stayed.
LB? They're having big problems there, again. Between the draft, graduation, attrition, and injury, they've lost six guys who played for them last year. They whiffed badly in recruiting because Georgia stole their top guy on NSD. We're better...and certainly deeper.
DB? Again: attrition. They had a pile of guys drafted. They're talented but young; we're equally talented (check out how many 4-star/5-star guys we have, especially at CB), and more experienced.
THIS YEAR - not most years - but THIS YEAR, we're ahead of Alabama, talentwise. I doubt that will be the case in 2019 but this is a peak year for us and what looks like a "reloading" year for them.
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Standout [316]
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Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis
Jul 19, 2018, 1:11 PM
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"THIS YEAR, we're ahead of Alabama, talentwise."
Yeah I have to disagree with you. Nobody is ahead of Alabama talent-wise. They played 12 true freshmen in the National Championship game. The final play was executed by a freshman QB and a freshman receiver.
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All-TigerNet [13035]
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I think QB is pretty even
Jul 19, 2018, 1:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis ] |
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Hurts is a better version of Kelly Bryant. Tua and TL both look like future superstars, and while TL might be a little more heralded out of HS, Tua has actually proven something on the field.. and he did it on the biggest stage in CFB. I think those QB situations are a wash.
I'm not sure the gap is that big at WR either. The one thing we have that they don't is Renfrow, but Jeudy and Ruggs looked like future stars towards the end of last year and are just as heralded and promising as Higgins and Rodgers. Bama has never needed a ton of depth at WR either. They can do a lot of damage with one really elite guy like Julio Jones, Amari Cooper, or Calvin Ridley.
Bama is still wayyyyyy ahead of us on the OL. Their front 7 against our OL is still the biggest mismatch on the field when we play.
I think we've closed the gap at RB to where it's fairly even, but Bama is never hurting for RBs and typically replace one 5* with another at the position. Next up is likely Najee Harris.
We have the best DL in CFB but Bama's isn't far behind and never will be. They just recruit far too well.
Bama's biggest problem at LB has been attrition. And they still managed to win the title last year despite going through like 10 LBs due to injury and such.
DBs... well Saban is still a heckuva DB coach. I like our top 3 corners a lot, but we have very little depth in the secondary in general. We will see how safety pans out. I can't really see us having an actual advantage over Bama in the secondary.
It's a pretty even matchup aside from their front 7 vs our OL, but it's really #### hard to out coach Nick Saban (you don't win 5 titles in 9 years by accident) and they still have like 60 4-5* recruits on their roster at any given time which allows them to survive pretty much any attrition. I think if anyone gets hurt by attrition during the season it's more likely to be us at corner, or safety, or OL, or something like that where we just don't have the guys to plug in.
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CU Medallion [55284]
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Re: I think QB is pretty even
Jul 20, 2018, 6:05 PM
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Bama is also good at using their TE's for mega yards or a TD or 2 during a tight game!!!
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Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis
Jul 19, 2018, 3:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis ] |
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All we heard about last year waa how bamas dline declined and ours got better. Then we played the game..
Without a threat like dw4 we got toasted. Our dl looked good but theirs looked all world.
Now that they have tua we will need a dw4 like qb IMO.
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Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis
Jul 19, 2018, 5:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis ] |
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I wish I could agree but this is clearly some clemson homering. Every year bama has a ton of attrition and every year they are dominant. It will be no different this year. We are definitely next in line but to say we are clearly more talented than bama is asinine. Our wr’s and d line is better than bamas, but those groups of theirs are much better than you’re giving them credit for.
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Legend [16213]
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Play all 3 QBs regularly.
Jul 19, 2018, 11:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: I usually agree with your posts but i'm going to have to dis ] |
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One thing that I saw coaching accomplish was getting our offense to start fast in games in 2016. We hadn't done so hot the year before and Dabo made it a point during that offseason, lots of comments about it. I haven't looked at the numbers but it seemed like we did have more starting drives, including 2nd halves, that we were really moving the ball and scoring on. Yes, it was DW4 at the helm, but it was also something the coaches stressed in practice with the whole unit.
Bringing a different QB into the lineup every so often, as long as everybody is practicing together and getting reps, doesn't have to be this whole 'game rhythm' killer thing we hear. There are plenty enough examples from O31O to Bama to ND, even UGA early last year to show where quick changes don't have to disrupt anything. Within game - why not? 3 different skillsets, at different speeds, looks, velocities, and sizes - how can a defense prepare for that? Our offense can because they would be practicing with it every day.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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We do not need our 2018 QB to be Deshaun Watson
Jul 19, 2018, 1:01 PM
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Because Trevor Lawrence already broke DW4's high school records, so he's better. I don't know if you have seen it, but recently Trevor Lawrence was ranked #1 on the list of best QBs to ever play the game at any level, ahead of all-time greats like DW4, Joe Montana, Tom Brady and Charlie Whitehurst.
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All-In [40719]
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Bama will be tough (probably much tougher) to beat with Tua.
Jul 19, 2018, 1:07 PM
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We have to come close to matching that at the QB position to beat them. Sorry but team that beat Georgia was not the same team we played in the Sugar Bowl. Tua takes them to another level and the longer that D stays off the field well, you know.
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Legend [16646]
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This is, yet again, one of those times folks
Jul 19, 2018, 1:15 PM
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Seem to forget Clemson has been in the playoff three straight years, and has taken Bama to the wire, or won, three straight years. For whatever reason, there's a reluctance to ever think Clemson is on par with Bama. Well...read Q's post again...he missed nothing. This year, Clemson is better...period.
OK...he missed one point I would challenge. Yes, KB tends to work hard and surprise. That said, I'm left with the lasting impression from the Spring game. He lost me that day. Can he win fans like me back...yeah. But...I saw the veneer crack, the swagger sneak away...and I question whether he's recovered. We'll know within the next six weeks or so.
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All-In [40719]
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Re: This is, yet again, one of those times folks
Jul 19, 2018, 1:54 PM
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Q is someone I almost never disagree with, (and I don’t necessarily disagree with him this time) but I think Bama reloads. They’ll be tough to beat. I won’t underestimate Bama. A lot of people made that mistake with us last year. I am not one of those who forget where our program is at. We are on par with Bama and quite frankly are doing a much better job developing recruiting classes. In fact 2015 we outclassed Bama in every way at almost every position but we didn’t win the game. Will it be the same this year as in 2015? I don’t know. Will it take another DW4 to beat them with our roster? I do agree with Q that it may not but I feel like we will need an elite QB to beat them now that they have Tua. Maybe I’m a little too impressed by him and it’s like Q said more film will be out on him soon. Maybe he’s not quite as good as I think he is.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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That team didn't play nearly as well as they played against
Jul 19, 2018, 1:16 PM
[ in reply to Bama will be tough (probably much tougher) to beat with Tua. ] |
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us in the Sugar Bowl. It wasn't revenge they were after, it was a reckoning. Their defense was nothing close to what we faced. And it's revisionist history about Tua. UGA got out of their gameplan. Tua made some dumb mistakes, but ultimately to win it in OT all he had to do was throw it to a wide open receiver whose defender ended UGAy's season.
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: That team didn't play nearly as well as they played against
Jul 19, 2018, 1:24 PM
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us in the Sugar Bowl. It wasn't revenge they were after, it was a reckoning. Their defense was nothing close to what we faced. And it's revisionist history about Tua. UGA got out of their gameplan. Tua made some dumb mistakes, but ultimately to win it in OT all he had to do was throw it to a wide open receiver whose defender ended UGAy's season.
Yup.
Also worth mentioning that while Tua is a different animal than Hurts, UGA was also completely unprepared for him. Like any QB, he's going to have strengths and weaknesses...and nobody has a book on him yet. When they do - which is going to be after the first month or so - people will adapt to Tua as well.
I think he'll still likely do well, but it's one thing to come off the bench for a half, another to lead a team the entire season, too.
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CU Guru [1243]
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Re: That team didn't play nearly as well as they played against
Jul 19, 2018, 4:38 PM
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us in the Sugar Bowl. It wasn't revenge they were after, it was a reckoning. Their defense was nothing close to what we faced. And it's revisionist history about Tua. UGA got out of their gameplan. Tua made some dumb mistakes, but ultimately to win it in OT all he had to do was throw it to a wide open receiver whose defender ended UGAy's season. Yup. Also worth mentioning that while Tua is a different animal than Hurts, UGA was also completely unprepared for him. Like any QB, he's going to have strengths and weaknesses...and nobody has a book on him yet. When they do - which is going to be after the first month or so - people will adapt to Tua as well. I think he'll still likely do well, but it's one thing to come off the bench for a half, another to lead a team the entire season, too.
Disagree. Both Clemson and UGA were prepared for the possibility of facing Tua in the playoffs. Saban had intimated that he might consider playing him if you heard his press conferences. Make no mistake, Venables prepped his defense for that possibility, but once Bama got ahead and it was clear we couldn’t mount a serious challenge to their lead, they didn’t have to use him. UGA was going to beat Bama 31-0 if Saban didn’t go to Tua. Didn’t mean UGA wasn’t anticipating that move. It didn’t matter. Tua is just that good.
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110%er [5045]
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Re: That team didn't play nearly as well as they played against
Jul 19, 2018, 6:24 PM
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Calvin Ridley TD was a complete accident, as well as the OT TD was a blown assignment. Tua didn't have to do anything special Najee Harris and company were running over the D for UGA, was it more Tua or was it more like DW4 did to Alabama the year before and they were getting tired when we scored 2/3 of our game points in the 4th. Lots of factors break in, Tua is a better passer but like Quozzel said he's proven on one instance it'll take time to see if he's really as amazing as CFB fans are hailing him to be for a 58% completion night.
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: Bama will be tough (probably much tougher) to beat with Tua.
Jul 19, 2018, 1:20 PM
[ in reply to Bama will be tough (probably much tougher) to beat with Tua. ] |
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We have to come close to matching that at the QB position to beat them. Sorry but team that beat Georgia was not the same team we played in the Sugar Bowl. Tua takes them to another level and the longer that D stays off the field well, you know.
I agree that Tua does add another dimension they didn't have with Hurts. But that also isn't the same team they had last year, either. They lost basically their entire defense to the draft; Alabama had a whopping 12 guys drafted, four of them in the first round. They also lost their one really good receiver, Calvin Ridley, and it is not a given that they have anybody as good to replace him.
They recruit really, really well, granted. But as I pointed out, they've having big problems at LB - which affected them badly until they healed up in the five weeks off they had before the Sugar Bowl.
Another thing worth keeping an eye on is, they also lost five coaches over the offseason...including both coordinators. I've never been very impressed with new OC Mike Locksley, and their new DC is unproven.
Everybody just assumes that Alabama can keep replacing coordinators, position coaches, and players because they always have, but at some point attrition gets everyone. No empire lasts forever...not even Saban's. Is it now for Alabama? Dunno. We'll see.
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Re: We do not need our 2018 QB to be Deshaun Watson
Jul 19, 2018, 1:14 PM
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You have to be able to beat Alabama through the air. It’s really that simple. Nobody can run the ball successfully on them. Clemson will have to have a QB that can beat them with his arm. KB is not that guy. The spring game was a great opportunity for him to show improvement, but he failed at that. The spring game took away his legs, like Alabama would do, and he was ineffective. He looked like our worst QB. If Clemson can avoid Alabama in the playoffs, then I’m sure we can win a title with KB.
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All-TigerNet [10354]
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said it before and i'll say it again.....
Jul 19, 2018, 1:33 PM
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we CAN'T beat BAMA without at downfield passing threat.........period........quite frankly nobody can.
go back and look at the QBs that have either beaten bama or given them trouble, most if not all were pass first athletic/dual threat QBs that could throw the ball enough to back the safeties & LBers back off the LOS. (ie maziel, chad kelly, DW4, cam newton), nick marshall could be that one exception but even he was able to throw "well enough"
so no, we don't need a QB to be a DW4 clone, but we do need a QB that can stretch the field vertically..........if KB has somehow made a MASSIVE improvement in that area since the spring then that's great, I have a difficult time believing that he has though.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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In fairness, you've said a lot of things before
Jul 19, 2018, 1:36 PM
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including making it clear to the tnets that you think Dabo sucks and you were butthurt when he got hired.
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All-TigerNet [10354]
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didn't like the hire 10 years ago........but have made......
Jul 19, 2018, 1:45 PM
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it clear that I think he's the best coach in the country now.
so do you think we can beat Bama without the capability to stretch the field??
you're obviously reading the thread, might as well give your two cents on the topic at hand.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I'd say it's tough to beat any team without the
Jul 19, 2018, 2:01 PM
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capability to stretch the field. That's why GT sucks out loud.
But you don't think KB has made a MASSIVE improvement throwing the ball downfield while simultaneously saying Dabo is the best coach in the country now. So if Dabo picks KB to be his starter are you going to trust that decision or criticize the best coach in the country?
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All-TigerNet [10354]
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Re: I'd say it's tough to beat any team without the
Jul 19, 2018, 2:15 PM
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I will trust his decision and if KB has made a big improvement in that area then GREAT!
but if he's more of the same I will still say we can't beat bama without having the "threat" of a downfield passing threat. I don't see how anybody can think otherwise.
I'll still think he's the best coach in the country because NOBODY is perfect and EVERYBODY makes mistakes (yes, including dabo.......cough stoudt over DW cough)
but it is that simple.........yeah our Oline got destroyed by bama.......why?......not b/c they sucked b/c bama didn't respect our passing game and knew we couldn't beat them through the air so they stacked the box and brought their safeties in............it was the opposite when DW4 was back there.
I'm not calling for TL over KB like I was calling for DW4 over stoudt (i think those are different situations), but I do know if we don't have a QB with a threat to stretch the field with his arm we won't be beating bama...............I do however think with our schedule we can go 11-1/12-0 with either QB.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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So you think Dabo made a mistake starting Stoudt over
Jul 19, 2018, 2:35 PM
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Watson? Why?
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All-TigerNet [10354]
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Re: So you think Dabo made a mistake starting Stoudt over
Jul 19, 2018, 2:50 PM
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starting stoudt in the UGA game was fine. I think we probably lose no matter who the QB was in that game, however the difference between the 2 QBs was BLANTANTLY obvious during that game (even with the limited time that DW4 played). The mistake was waiting until it was too late to either realize/admit publicly that DW4 was the best option in Tallahassee after cole hit wide open Jordan leggett in the shoe laces in the endzone...........you can say what you want, but we win that game if DW4 plays that entire game.
So here's my question to you. It appears that you don't think Dabo has EVER made a mistake during his head coaching tenure at clemson.
If that's not the case please tell me what mistakes YOU THINK he has made?
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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What makes you think we would beat FSU that year if DW4
Jul 19, 2018, 3:07 PM
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starts? We went into halftime up 10-3. In 7 possessions in the 2nd half, all lead by DW4, we only scored 7 points. DW4 came in on the 3rd possession of that game, and in the first possession Lakip missed a 23-yd chip shot.
The only mistakes I think Dabo has made were his coordinator hires early on, which he corrected in a huge way, I think he mismanaged Kyle Parker, and not putting Hunter Johnson in the Cuse game last year was a head-scratcher.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: What makes you think we would beat FSU that year if DW4
Jul 19, 2018, 3:19 PM
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he would have made the pass to Leggett that Stoudt threw short and at Leggett's feet while he was wide open, no defender, running the line of the end zone... that'd be +7 in the first quarter.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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So you're assuming that if DW4 starts the game instead of
Jul 19, 2018, 3:23 PM
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Stoudt, that he would drive down the field and get into the same down and distance situation, with the same play call, with Leggett wide open?
That's one heck of a leap in logic.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: So you're assuming that if DW4 starts the game instead of
Jul 19, 2018, 5:56 PM
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Not saying he'd have done the same drive...saying he wouldn't have missed a wide open Leggett (or any wide open receiver) that was on his own at the edge of the end zone like Cole did...period. Then there wouldn't have been a missed FG to happen either.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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No, you can't say any of that because it's pure
Jul 19, 2018, 6:33 PM
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speculation. For all we know he could've lead us down the field for a TD. Or he could've gone down the field and Lakip miss a FG. Or he could have thrown a pick 6. Or he could've blown out his ACL and not played anymore that season.
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Team Captain [459]
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I've gotta jump in here as well. I think we probably win
Jul 19, 2018, 3:23 PM
[ in reply to What makes you think we would beat FSU that year if DW4 ] |
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the FSU game that year if DW4 starts it. You could point to a number of mistakes made by a number of parties in that game, from the missed Lakip chip shot to the snap that sailed 45 feet over DW4's head, to the CJ Davidson fumble in the late part of the 4th quarter where we had them beat, to the decision to start Stoudt over Watson.
Stoudt played 3 drives in that game (and it took up over ten minutes in the first quarter in the process). We were down 3-0 when DW4 came in, and after his first drive, the game was tied.
It's my belief that if we give those three drives to DW4, we score one time on FSU. Just my thoughts.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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You're right, I said 3rd possession but DW4 came in for the
Jul 19, 2018, 3:34 PM
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4th possession. Still doesn't change the fact that DW4 had plenty of opportunities to put the game away and didn't. Maybe we win, maybe we don't. But it's a huge leap to say with any type of conviction that we would win it.
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Team Captain [459]
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All I said was I thought we would probably win, but that
Jul 19, 2018, 3:39 PM
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there was a ton of blame to go around in that game. It's so very hard to point to one mistake (amid a multitude of them) as the culprit.
All I am saying is with three extra possessions led by DW4, I like our chances to put points on the board in that game.
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All-TigerNet [10354]
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I didn't say that at all. What I will say is that Neither QB
Jul 19, 2018, 5:46 PM
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lit it up and we lost. However, Dabo's approach with DW4 led to a national championship game appearance the next season and a national championship the season after that. So I think it would be asinine and completely stupid for me to question Dabo's approach with DW4 when in Watson's final game as a Tiger he hoisted the ultimate prize. And because I'm not stupid, I won't question it. But you do you.
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All-TigerNet [10354]
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Re: I didn't say that at all. What I will say is that Neither QB
Jul 20, 2018, 8:30 AM
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sorry, but 19/28 for 266 yards w/ a rushing TD as a true freshman at the #1 team's house at night in a little over 3 quarters of play coming in for a Senior QB who couldn't cut it is lighting it up.
comp att yds % y/att TD INT Rat.
8.5 games - Cole Stoudt 191 302 1892 63.2 6.27 9 10 119.1
4 games - Deshaun Watson 93 137 1466 67.9 10.70 14 2 188.6
games where Cole played most of the game (UGA, Louisville, BC, Cuse, Wake, GT, Ga. State, OU)we avg 23ppg
games where DW played most of the game (FSU, UNC, NCstate, USC) we avg 37ppg
When they were both available to play it's not even a question who should've been on the field, but I can't help the fact that your orange glasses are permanently glued to your face and can't see that.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: You're right, I said 3rd possession but DW4 came in for the
Jul 19, 2018, 5:57 PM
[ in reply to You're right, I said 3rd possession but DW4 came in for the ] |
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For the record, Watson kind of did put the game away...it was Lakip that didn't. 2 missed FG's, make either of them and Clemson wins in regular play.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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7 possessions in the 2nd half, 7 points
Jul 19, 2018, 6:18 PM
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Who had more TD passes in that game, Cole or DW4?
One of those missed FGs was after Cole's 2nd possession and was 23 yards if I remember correctly.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: 7 possessions in the 2nd half, 7 points
Jul 19, 2018, 8:11 PM
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DW4 had the only QB TD in that game. Cole only passed for 40 yards the whole game, rushed for 24... No TD's. Deshaun passed down the field for 266 yards (that's more yards in 3 qtrs than Bryant had last year in 12 out of 14 of his games, btw... Against a stronger FSU as well..in Tallahassee) and ran in a TD himself. He was also responsible for the drive that allowed a 1 yard RB TD. And you think he didn't throw?
Lol, 3 qtrs, he did more yards than KB had in 86% of his games the entire 2017 season...better than 12 of 14 games of 2017. Really? I guess if you consider that not doing anything, then KB didn't do jack last year anyone should be pumping.
http://www.espn.com/college-football/boxscore?gameId=400547742
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Sooooo who had more TD passes in that game, DW4 or Cole?***
Jul 19, 2018, 10:37 PM
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110%er [5280]
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Re: Sooooo who had more TD passes in that game, DW4 or Cole?***
Jul 19, 2018, 11:51 PM
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Doesn't matter, one scored, other didn't... One was dual threat, other wasn't. . One put up more yards than our current QB did in 12/14 games, one didn't.... Could he have done more, possibly. But he scored, and put up big yards for 3 quarters, leading to a 1 yd red zone score by a RB. Can't say that about Bryant's FSU game this last year, can you? That's why you dodged that.
Ask yourself this, who's drives scored 6+ points? Cole, or DW4? Who's could have if the ball wasn't thrown at a TE's feet?
If you are going to dog a 266 yard in 3 quarters game, better start dogging the hell out of KB's season.. Especially his 151 yd, 0 passing TD FSU performance, at home, vs a 3-6 team. Otherwise, your are a hypocrite. Can't sit there and say that performance would beat that level of an FSU this year (if they return to their normal with Francois back) and not sound ignorant.
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All-TigerNet [10354]
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so basically you think he's made 3 mistakes visible
Jul 19, 2018, 3:30 PM
[ in reply to What makes you think we would beat FSU that year if DW4 ] |
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by us fans.........while I think he's made 4 (b/c I agree 100% on your 3).
now, did stoudt over watson the first few games of 2014 lose us a playoff spot? No, but like I said that in the FSU game the offense clicked much more and moved the ball much better w/ DW4 in the game. I believe we had one RB fumble on/near the goaline (on a DW4 drive) and our center snapped it 20 yards backwards while inside the 5 (on a DW4 drive). Our RB fumbles in FG range toward the end to put the nail in our coffin (on a DW4 drive). While cole stoudt hits an OPEN Jordan leggett in the shoelaces...................there was plenty of blame to go around in that game, which makes it more amazing that despite those mistakes by others DW4 was still good enough to put us in the position to score MANY times in that game and the game was still close.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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So the offense was clicking with Watson in the game
Jul 19, 2018, 5:47 PM
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even though there were fumbles, a snap that went 20 yards backwards and it didn't really move forward in OT? Got it.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: So the offense was clicking with Watson in the game
Jul 19, 2018, 11:59 PM
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Clicked to score 17 points... With Lakips kicks, could have been 23, enough to beat FSU with 17 as well at the end of the game. 266 yards in 3 qtrs is better than 151 yards in 4, with 0 passing TD's. And seeing there was a 1 yd red zone RB score in DW4's, they could have done a pass into the end zone without it having to be a long one.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: We do not need our 2018 QB to be Deshaun Watson
Jul 19, 2018, 1:34 PM
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Aren't you essentially contradicting yourself? "We don't need the QB to pass like DW, we just need to stretch the field more vertically" ( which I believe would increase yards and passing TD's... And essentially get closer to having a passer like Deshaun Watson??). O_o
No they don't have to be DW4 exact... But they will need to be a good, consistent passer than can throw more than 13 passing TD's in 14 games, and will need to at least be in the mid 3000's similar to Tajh or DW4 to give defenses a reason to back off the line. Bama always has a great run defense, so you do need a very efficient passer.
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Oculus Spirit [82972]
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About .08 worth***
Jul 19, 2018, 1:40 PM
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Legend [18407]
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Re: We do not need our 2018 QB to be Deshaun Watson
Jul 19, 2018, 3:06 PM
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Most of you have covered it but we do need Trevor at QB. It wasn't all about KB's passing skills. He couldn't look receivers off and he is slow on the short passes and getting off the screens. That killed us against bama and will against any good team this year too. He doesn't get the ball out quickly enough and doesn't have the zip that a TL does. His reads killed us and I really wouldn't consider KB an above avg runner either.
We played a tough schedule but make no mistake, our D won us the games. Even the Miami blowout game and the va tech game that peeps talk about for KB. Lewisville just plain had a bad D. Heck, HJ and ZC even scored points on them. Our D and schemes wore their offense down and at the same time wore their D out because they stayed on the field too long.
No, sorry, I do agree with most all your posts and have enjoyed them but this one is wrong on the QB call. Defensively we are better than bama is at this point in the season. Late season those 5*'s will have progressed into a pretty good D but yes, I still think we have better coaches and D than they do. But we still have score points and control the game.
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Legend [17520]
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+1 because you are the Q - agree with much of message
Jul 19, 2018, 7:39 PM
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and respectfully disagree with some of your points ...
Yes, Deshaun Watson was the best player on the field for Bama or Tigers in 2015 & 2016. We do not make either championship without him, much less win. And agree the Tide couldn't stop Deshaun.
Agree the talent gap between us and Alabama has closed and tilted in our favor at DL and 6-8 more positions. Bama's depth is still ahead of Tigers.
We're only better offensively in 2018 with much better QB play. The O-line is solid and the skill players are All-American caliber if only utilized. And yes, Gallman could seriously block from RB spot. This has been missed but Feaster can run and Etienne as you state could be really special (better than CJ). I believe you are too hard on Milan Richard who has great hands but very few quality reception opportunities.
I hope you are right that we do not need DW4 because my take is he will make a serious run at NFL MVP this year. That's hard to replace. And I agree we need the ability to stretch teams vertically and back their safeties out of the box. 14 points vs. Auburn, 28 vs. Wake, 27 vs. Cuse, 24 vs. Ga Tech showed Bama was not the only team to stuff the box ... even though Clemson was better at 18 of 22 positions than lesser ACC teams (not with Auburn who slayed the Tide.)
Agree the coaches have eyes and also believe they played it conservative deciding not to develop HJ last year and hoping KB would be good enough.
As for Bryant's personality and swagger, he's a great guy who I would disagree had "control of the offense" -- more of a pull-down and run most of the time QB. And his swagger seems to implode in pressure situations. My take is you are loyally comparing Willie Simmons' skill sets to an Aaron Rodgers' clone who needs reps to be ready for late season money games. I just do not see KB as you do as being exceptional "with his feet" ... more like slightly above average and predictable. I see Clemson's players as being so much better than opposing ACC players and winning with any QB including Batson.
Clemson's personnel will be strong in 2019 and 2020 and hopefully far beyond. But the D-Line alone makes this a year to capitalize on. QB is the most important position on the field -- as I believe you agree DW4 beat a slightly better Bama team in 2016. And Tua could beat a slightly better Clemson team this season. Let's hope not. This year more than ever is about carpe diem.
Always appreciate your .10 worth and your quality posts ... and at the end of the day, Go Tigers!
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Legend [19567]
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Pardon me if I'm wrong
Jul 19, 2018, 10:00 PM
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but does anyone really think we won't be improved throwing downfield, whether through an improved Bryant, or Trevor? I'm not writing Bryant off either, as he's a fighter, a leader and has improved by leaps and bounds every year. If he doesn't, then Trevor will supplant him.
But the key reason we'll be improved downfield is WR. Cain was simply not a high point WR. Between Higgins, Overton, Kendrick, Ross, whoever, we'll win far more jump balls this year. There were 6-12 throws Kelly made last year that if Mike Williams were the intended target it's a catch. That's what changes this year the most
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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Re: We do not need our 2018 QB to be Deshaun Watson
Jul 20, 2018, 8:41 AM
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The more I think about the unique skill sets of both QBs and the different challenges different defenses pose I'm wondering more and more if we don't see a two QB system.
I know it isn't popular and often fails, but the one instance where I think it can work is when you have different skill sets, i.e. Florida 2006.
I also think if this is the case it could present a situation where Lawrences ratio of snaps rise as the season progresses. We often see two bolded names on the depth chart with an "or" next them representing co-starters, this could be the first time we see that situation with QB.
I'm almost more interested in seeing how other freshman do, the corners need to produce early and I'm curious with so much DL depth if we can RS more guys than people might expect while still getting them 4 games experience.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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KB doesn't have to match TL on deep passes but he...
Jul 20, 2018, 6:11 PM
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certainly does need to get really good at reading defense and deciding whether to keep the ball, hand it to a running back or dump it in the flat. He can't keep his job if he continues to be fooled by tricky defenses.
We had a dominating defense last year. If not for that we may have lost four games. Our defense was responsible for every W on our record. KB did an above average job but we don't have to endure another season with just an above average quarterback, we don't have to now.
I'm pulling for KB to read that option like book. I'm pulling for him to have enough composure to know when to stay in the pocket or sky down the sideline. I'm also hoping he can gain enough confidence to turn that ball loose without the WRs looking to him for the it as did DW.
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110%er [5476]
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Re: We do not need our 2018 QB to be Deshaun Watson
Jul 20, 2018, 6:17 PM
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You pointed out that KB threw 12 tds last year, as I remember we played 14 games. That is not a stat that can not be be swept under the rug.
Message was edited by: Purple Gunstock 15®
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Rock Defender [59]
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Re: We do not need our 2018 QB to be Deshaun Watson
Jul 20, 2018, 7:13 PM
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always appreciate your input, Q, and while I agree with much of your assessment, I'd like to offer an opinion from a different POV.
KB is by all accounts a great person, a hard worker, and a talented athlete. also, he's a Tiger, which makes me a fan. but in my opinion he's not a true, natural QB, through no fault of his own. like you and many others have pointed out, he hasn't been a passing QB for very long. I don't think we need DW4 to beat Alabama, per se, but I do think we need a true, natural signal caller. a QB who can call the right protections, who can _feel_ the pressure and the pocket when it's in various stages of collapse, who can make all the throws under pressure, and who can run with vision and field awareness. I've seen many comment that no one could've possibly done any better than KB vs Alabama last year because of the O-line play etc. I disagree with this, because KB is not a natural QB who reads defenses, calls protections, and feels pressure the way I believe 2 others on our roster could today. watching DW4 spoiled us, yes. but in the spring game I could also see TL feel pressure and step into spaces that would allow him to cleanly deliver the ball downfield (so long as we're not playing touch football), so I know he's capable. I believe that at least 1 of KB's interceptions vs Alabama was a direct result of his poor pocket presence. the other thing I want to offer a countering opinion on is his running game. he's a strong runner, yes. but again, he often lacks field awareness in general and 1st-down-marker awareness in particular, and he tends to not run through tackles when a mere tough yard is needed to extend a drive; TB was far superior in these situations when he was here. lastly, his throwing mechanics nullify our screen game, and his troubles reading coverages and pushing the ball downfield have been covered ad nauseum. I'm not ruling out improvement, and if it's demonstrated in these areas I'll be the first to sing his praises. I'll be rooting for him when he inevitably trots out there for our first series vs Furman, in any case.
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