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YOUR BALANCE
UVA has been mentioned often here in the last couple of
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UVA has been mentioned often here in the last couple of


Jan 31, 2021, 8:39 PM

days. Who and where were they before Tony Bennett. Were they a power house with great facilities? I don’t know. Who does?


Just looked. Bennett has been there 11 years. They had not done squat for years before that.

Message was edited by: lthom022®


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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Terry Holland was 418-216 there.***


Jan 31, 2021, 10:28 PM



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Re: Terry Holland was 418-216 there.***


Jan 31, 2021, 10:43 PM

Yes and no. Holland was many yrs ago. Just like Ford paved the day for Swinney?

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What does that have to do with Clemson basketball?


Jan 31, 2021, 10:47 PM

UVA has a great basketball history, but had not had much success in the years prior to Bennett’s arrival. However, their state of the art arena was in place several years before Bennett arrived in Charlottesville. Their history and the facilities made rebuilding their program easier than it is at Clemson.

With that said, Bennett is an unbelievable coach. He has done a great job there.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: What does that have to do with Clemson basketball?


Jan 31, 2021, 11:03 PM

Just read a bit abt it. Was completed in 06 so it is older now. Never been there. Do our facilities best theirs now?

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Our renovations put us about on par with UVA’s in my opinion.***


Jan 31, 2021, 11:05 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: What does that have to do with Clemson basketball?


Feb 1, 2021, 9:30 AM [ in reply to What does that have to do with Clemson basketball? ]

Again, have to respectively disagree. UVA and Clemson have similar history in NCAA appearances. Yes, they did win a couple ACC titles b4 2000 but mostly comparable to Clemson in history until this past decade.

They've crushed it the last decade and we've done the exact opposite... So what's the only difference? Uva took it more serious? Or UVA had a better coach.

Barring a miracle, winning an ACC title and a final 4 this year, time for a new coach. Even sweet 16, I'd cut ties with him. No reason regardless of our history that Clemson should be able to accomplish what UVA has this past decade.

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Clemson's basketball history isn't comparable to UVA's


Feb 1, 2021, 3:30 PM

pre-Bennett. Respectfully, it's not even close.

Terry Holland coached at UVA from 1974-1990. He took them to 9 NCAA Tournaments, including a Sweet 16 appearance, two Elite Eight appearances, and two Final Fours. He also led them to five top-3 finishes in the ACC, including three years in a row in the early 80s where they finished first in the ACC.

Holland's tenure alone is far superior to the entirety of Clemson's basketball history.

Jeff Jones took over for Holland in 1990, and in his 8 years at UVA he took them to 5 NCAA Tournaments. One of those was a Sweet 16, and one was an Elite 8.

Jeff Jones's tenure there is far superior to any coach we've had, and he is probably their third best coach.

UVA basketball wandered in the wilderness for about 10 years under Pete Gillen and Dave Leitao, with only a couple of NCAA Tournament appearances during that span of time. Bennett took over in 2009, and has obviously done great.

There is no reason we can't become good at basketball too, but UVA has a strong basketball history on their side that we don't. They built a state-of-the-art arena 15 years ago, around the same time we tried to give Littlejohn a pathetic facelift. In other words, they raised the money and did it right, whereas we went cheap. It wasn't until recently that we realized that we needed to invest real dollars into a real facility, not just window dressing. So we are over a decade behind them on that also.

Yes, their coach also has something to do with it. Bennett is outstanding. I don't think he would've taken the UVA job without being convinced that they were serious about winning at basketball. Previous coaches haven't accepted Clemson's job offer because they view Clemson as a football school that doesn't care about basketball. That's a huge perception problem we have to fix before we hire our next basketball coach.

Many of our fans like to pat themselves on the back because we're a football school. They think it's cute to act like they don't care about other sports. That's fine on football Saturdays, but it hurts us big time when it comes to basketball. I wish more people understood that.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 8:41 AM

I have said to my Clemson friends their baseball and basketball programs are good reasons for some Clemson fans to say that we cannot ever be good in basketball.

That excuse should only be used by the chicken fans and their football program.

We have to show we care about being better though.

Whatever side you're on when it comes to Brownell, his coaching history here has not been good.

The same thing goes for the women's team when Smith got a contract extension despite her horrible record.

We don't look serious about fixing our basketball program.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 8:49 AM

The two examples of winning in basketball on parr with us are Florida State and Virginia Tech.

Florida State has been good for years under Leonard Hamilton

Mike Young replaced Buzz Williams who had a good program going, and hasn’t skipped a beat in just two years. Similar situation when we had Oliver Purnell and replaced him with Brad Brownell that didn’t pay dividends early after the first season. Mike Young has rebuilt the Virginia Tech program quickly with mostly transfers.

We have better arenas than both Florida State and Virginia Tech.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 9:03 AM

Totally agree. With all due respect to Judge Keller and others, our facilities are not holding us back. Clemson is Clemson. We should be able to get talent to the University.

I admit, don't know squat about x and o's in bball but it sure seems like our strategy is to go out and get a pile of kids and then determine our playbook vs having a playbook and strategy and then go out and recruit kids to fit. As stated, idk.

Do know the Brownell experience hasn't been pleasant less one season in 11 years.

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Talent is way more important than a system in basketball


Feb 1, 2021, 9:14 AM

And most good coaches tweak their offensive system to fit their players. If you have guys that are elite off the dribble you run more P&R and ISO stuff. If you have a group of great shooters you can do more off ball screens, drive and dish, etc. If you also have a big that's a good passer along with those shooters you can do more inside-out stuff and let that guy pass out of the post. There are plenty of options if you have good players. You need the players though and that's generally where we've fallen short over the years.

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Re: Talent is way more important than a system in basketball


Feb 1, 2021, 9:18 AM

Thanks T & C. Wow, learned a lot.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 9:19 AM [ in reply to Re: I don't know what's been said ]


Totally agree. With all due respect to Judge Keller and others, our facilities are not holding us back. Clemson is Clemson. We should be able to get talent to the University.

I admit, don't know squat about x and o's in bball but it sure seems like our strategy is to go out and get a pile of kids and then determine our playbook vs having a playbook and strategy and then go out and recruit kids to fit. As stated, idk.

Do know the Brownell experience hasn't been pleasant less one season in 11 years.


Your comment on finding a strategy for your roster is spot on. We need to be recruiting for a strategy. Brad has no culture in place. That "Clemson Grit" slogan is hog wash when looking at 4 of the 5 last games.

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It worked pretty well the first 10 games when we were 9-1.***


Feb 1, 2021, 3:39 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I never said that facilities are holding us back now.


Feb 1, 2021, 3:38 PM [ in reply to Re: I don't know what's been said ]

But they absolutely did until the new ones were complete a few years ago.

Staff budgets are important too, and Brad had to scratch and claw to get raises approved for assistants. It's only been in the last few years that we have had that in place.

It's funny, because significant components of our football success have been facility upgrades and a budget increase for staff hires. Our football program didn't take off until Dabo could go hire a top defensive coordinator like Venables. Recruiting has improved significantly since we began investing in facilities. The same is true for basketball. That's why I spent years annoying everyone here about our need to do the same for basketball.

This is several years into Brad having those things. We are truly seeing what he is capable of being on a more level playing field. There have been some very encouraging things during that time (e.g., Sweet 16, top 20 recruiting class) but also some disappointing seasons where we narrowly missed the NCAA Tournament. Thus, this year is really important in my opinion. I suspect that it's really important in DRad's opinion too.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 9:53 AM [ in reply to Re: I don't know what's been said ]

Actually, FSU and VT have a bit more history than us...

Lets ask if VT/FSU would like to time-travel to the pre-2010 era. say 2007-2008. We can have OP and Bowden back... they can have their football icons back.

mid-upper status in basketball is a poor substitute to other success.

Anyway, Hamilton is the prime example of patience with a decent coach. I am sure a few of our folks here would be screaming over his lack of success if he had his record here. At NC State, he would have been canned. He is a very good coach but also the reason to stick with a good coach rather than risking instability. Many folks wanted him out.

As for Mike Young, the jury is still out. Why, Look at Lary Larranaga. He took the ACC by storm and has mostly faded since. So you cant take a small sample and extend it. However, if you really want to make a point, Brownell is about as successful than Buzz (very similar %). Buzz did well but finished 15th, 7th, 7th, 7th 4th in his seasons. Brad did 4th, 6th, 7th 11th, 9th.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 10:02 AM

FutureDoc said:

Actually, FSU and VT have a bit more history than us...

Lets ask if VT/FSU would like to time-travel to the pre-2010 era. say 2007-2008. We can have OP and Bowden back... they can have their football icons back.

mid-upper status in basketball is a poor substitute to other success.

Anyway, Hamilton is the prime example of patience with a decent coach. I am sure a few of our folks here would be screaming over his lack of success if he had his record here. At NC State, he would have been canned. He is a very good coach but also the reason to stick with a good coach rather than risking instability. Many folks wanted him out.

As for Mike Young, the jury is still out. Why, Look at Lary Larranaga. He took the ACC by storm and has mostly faded since. So you cant take a small sample and extend it. However, if you really want to make a point, Brownell is about as successful than Buzz (very similar %). Buzz did well but finished 15th, 7th, 7th, 7th 4th in his seasons. Brad did 4th, 6th, 7th 11th, 9th.


Lol. Williams went to the NCAAT three straight years in his 5 years, while we went to just one in Brad's 8th season. His other NCAAT was in his first with someone else's players. Also you mention Hamilton. Yeah it took him awhile but not his 12th season if Brad doesn't make it to the NCAAT again this season.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 10:24 AM

Yeah, Buzz went to the NCAA with a 21-11 record and 10-8 in conference, first round exit in ACC his 3rd year.

Brownell went 20-11 and 10-8 in conference (4th), second round exit in ACC (1pt loss to #7 Duke) and got an NIT invite. That dis in the 13-14 season hurt worse than one could imagine. That stole years from us. If you are only noting NCAA "invites" and how fickle they can be. If Buzz was at Clemson, he would have 2 extra NIT invites at best.

The old "rules" of 20 wins and .500 in conference used to be the ticket to the dance. Now, we get passed up because of perception more than actual play. That is a big hurdle to overcome.

Save for his last year, Buzz only featured 1 win a season vs a top team, and then was basically .500 in conference - and that was often against UVA. Buzz did well, but the only thing that Buzz outdid brad on was jumping ship after a hot season.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 10:32 AM

FutureDoc said:

Yeah, Buzz went to the NCAA with a 21-11 record and 10-8 in conference, first round exit in ACC his 3rd year.

Brownell went 20-11 and 10-8 in conference (4th), second round exit in ACC (1pt loss to #7 Duke) and got an NIT invite. That dis in the 13-14 season hurt worse than one could imagine. That stole years from us. If you are only noting NCAA "invites" and how fickle they can be. If Buzz was at Clemson, he would have 2 extra NIT invites at best.

The old "rules" of 20 wins and .500 in conference used to be the ticket to the dance. Now, we get passed up because of perception more than actual play. That is a big hurdle to overcome.

Save for his last year, Buzz only featured 1 win a season vs a top team, and then was basically .500 in conference - and that was often against UVA. Buzz did well, but the only thing that Buzz outdid brad on was jumping ship after a hot season.




Saying what Buzz was to Virginia Tech, and What Brad is here are not on parr by a long shot. Buzz did what he did their in 5 years. Brad was in his his 8th season. Buzz built a strong program, and Brad inherited a good program and turned it into a weak one quickly.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 10:50 AM

Brad took over what was essentially the triple-option of college basketball. OP's press was a gimmick that would punish undisciplined teams with lesser talent... and knock off a decent team if they were unfocused/cold. It required a very major overhaul and not only that, but we were basically homeless for a while - that was how bad the facilities we needed that big of a construction project (and it still wasn't enough).

Basically, you are saying Buzz was better because he pulled a Rich Barnes?

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 11:08 AM

FutureDoc said:

Brad took over what was essentially the triple-option of college basketball. OP's press was a gimmick that would punish undisciplined teams with lesser talent... and knock off a decent team if they were unfocused/cold. It required a very major overhaul and not only that, but we were basically homeless for a while - that was how bad the facilities we needed that big of a construction project (and it still wasn't enough).

Basically, you are saying Buzz was better because he pulled a Rich Barnes?


You have argument here that been done to noziam on this site. My argument is based on win and loss results to get to the NCAAT or not. If Brad doesn’t make it to the NCAAT again, that is two appearances in 11 years. Now it’s a COVID year so he would be back because of financial restraints. But next year it would be NCAAT or bust. I think we could finally agree on that argument.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 11:56 AM

I think we are in agreement for a lot of things.

My take is comparing us to Georgia Tech and Wake. Heck, I will toss VT into this group but at least of late they have been better but I guess if your main rival is winning natties, you have to do something. Since 2010, and even a bit before, the NCAA has been in a major upheaval. Particularly from the P5 side. The rise of the mid-majors and an effort to build them has gutted the mid-level P5 programs (like Wake, GT). Worse, it make programs like Clemson a harder "sell" and thus a 20 win season and 10-8 gets us to the NIT. Are things bad enough for us to fire our coach? I say no. Are things great, no.

Our program has been stable - that is good. We have not been win-or-else. We have been a clean program. I am fine with this as it is how you build from the foundations. If someone played fast and lose/adidas, then we would be hurting. BB has done well, but I think a lot of us want to take the next step.

If we are going to make a change, I don't want us to make a bad decision. IDing the right coach is golden. I think Clemson as a program is moving up. But we need to ID the next Nate Oats and then target hard. Heck pull away a clean recruiter from another school if need be.

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Brad did not inherit a good program.


Feb 1, 2021, 3:45 PM [ in reply to Re: I don't know what's been said ]

Please stop perpetuating that myth.

It's not simply about "we had gone to the NCAA Tournament three years in a row." That is oversimplifying things big time.

Purnell left Brad with a nice core for his first year, and nothing in the pipeline. That supposedly great class Purnell recruited in 2009 was nowhere close to a top 20 class in reality. No coach would've done well in his second year at Clemson, the talent deficiencies due to Purnell's recruiting misses were significant.

Brad should've done a better job rebounding from that more quickly, and I think that's where we had to live through some of the growing pains of a coach figuring out ACC basketball after previously being at the mid-major level. But he figured it out, and we've been on average a solid middle of the pack ACC team at worst for the second half of his tenure.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 10:48 AM [ in reply to Re: I don't know what's been said ]

nctigs said:

The two examples of winning in basketball on parr with us are Florida State and Virginia Tech.

Florida State has been good for years under Leonard Hamilton

Mike Young replaced Buzz Williams who had a good program going, and hasn’t skipped a beat in just two years. Similar situation when we had Oliver Purnell and replaced him with Brad Brownell that didn’t pay dividends early after the first season. Mike Young has rebuilt the Virginia Tech program quickly with mostly transfers.

We have better arenas than both Florida State and Virginia Tech.



FSU and VT have basketball facilities separate from the arena. A separate facility with the bells and whistles. Think a smaller version of our football facility.

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Exactly. Some people here think facilities are just the


Feb 1, 2021, 3:47 PM

arena. The fan side of the arena is the LEAST important part of it from a player's perspective.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 10:48 AM [ in reply to Re: I don't know what's been said ]

nctigs said:

The two examples of winning in basketball on parr with us are Florida State and Virginia Tech.

Florida State has been good for years under Leonard Hamilton

Mike Young replaced Buzz Williams who had a good program going, and hasn’t skipped a beat in just two years. Similar situation when we had Oliver Purnell and replaced him with Brad Brownell that didn’t pay dividends early after the first season. Mike Young has rebuilt the Virginia Tech program quickly with mostly transfers.

We have better arenas than both Florida State and Virginia Tech.



FSU and VT have basketball facilities separate from the arena. A separate facility with the bells and whistles. Think a smaller version of our football facility.

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Re: I don't know what's been said


Feb 1, 2021, 10:51 AM

We also have a new basketball facility built with the rebuilt arena. It was built after Tech's and is just as nice.

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Re: UVA has been mentioned often here in the last couple of


Feb 1, 2021, 11:32 AM

Terry Holland took them to the NCAA's often. Remember Ralph Sampson & those that followed.

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