Tiger Board Logo

Donor's Den General Leaderboards TNET coins™ POTD Hall of Fame Map FAQ
GIVE AN AWARD
Use your TNET coins™ to grant this post a special award!

W
50
Big Brain
90
Love it!
100
Cheers
100
Helpful
100
Made Me Smile
100
Great Idea!
150
Mind Blown
150
Caring
200
Flammable
200
Hear ye, hear ye
200
Bravo
250
Nom Nom Nom
250
Take My Coins
500
Ooo, Shiny!
700
Treasured Post!
1000

YOUR BALANCE
Oline development
storage This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
Archives - Tiger Boards Archive
add New Topic
Replies: 57
| visibility 1

Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 4:33 PM

I saw where Jackson Carman was projected as a 5th round pick. So I decided to see how our offensive line has developed under Robbie Caldwell, from 2010-2018. It’s not good.

5 star, Jackson Carman, 17 (5th)
5 star, Mitch Hyatt, 23 (undrafted)
4 star, Tyrone Crowder, 117 (undrafted)
4 star, John Simpson, 150 (4th)
4 star, Eric Mac Lain, 188 (undrafted)
4 star, Sean Pollard, 290 (undrafted)
3 star, Spencer Region, 317 (undrafted)
3 star, David Beasley, 358 (undrafted)
3 star, Jay Guillermo, 476 (undrafted)
3 star, Tremayne Anchrum, 486 (7th)
3 star, Shaq Anthony, 502 (undrafted)
3 star, Reid Webster, 525 (undrafted)
3 star, Justin Falcinelli, 535 (undrafted)
3 star, Zach Giella, 609 (undrafted)
3 star, Isaiah Battle, JUCO (undrafted)
3 star, Maverick Morris, 729 (undrafted)
3 star, Taylor Hearn, 787 (undrafted)
3 star, Kalon Davis, 798 (undrafted)
3 star, Chandler Reeves, 809 (undrafted)
3 star, Oliver Jones, 890 (undrafted)
3 star, Gage Cervenka, 893 (undrafted)
3 star, Gifford Timothy, 2002 (undrafted)
3 star, Cade Stewart, 2021 (undrafted)

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 4:38 PM

That is not good at all! I was thinking the same thing as soon as I heard Carman was projected as a 5th rounder, he needs to come back if possible, but would it really help him?

military_donation.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:27 PM

I think it would help him to return.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 6:17 PM [ in reply to Re: Oline development ]

It may be time for Robbie to retire.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Yes, most definitely.***


Feb 15, 2021, 12:01 PM



badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 16, 2021, 9:38 PM [ in reply to Re: Oline development ]

Use to be a big RC supporter ... still like him but much like Brad Scott, he needs to move to another position outside of coaching.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:01 PM

It really makes me wonder if Dabo actually keeps up with those types of stats. I mean with all those undrafted O lineman since Robbie has been our O Line coach, it truly causes me to wonder if he keeps up with those stats, and if not, he really should. Those are really easy stats for other HCs to show the same OL talent that we're going after!!!


Message was edited by: allinallorangeallthetime52®


2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:28 PM

At least Oline has recruiting has improved in recent years. We’ll see how it translates.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 6:04 PM

Well there is two 5 star, and a lot of 4 star O Lineman that hasn't improved enough to be successful in the NFL. Just saying, how good do they have to be when they come to Clemson to have a chance in the NFL after Clemson???

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 11:27 PM

Here's a good article but I wish they'd do a deeper dive into Clemson.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/04/02/modern-offensive-line-u-based-on-numbers


2024 orange level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 11:29 PM

The one question is 2014... Unless this was April 2020 and Simpson wasn't activated.

2024 orange level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


It’s a recruiting problem, a player development problem, or both.


Feb 14, 2021, 5:10 PM

Regardless, I had no idea it was this bad.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: It’s a recruiting problem, a player development problem, or both.


Feb 14, 2021, 5:29 PM

It’s looking like it’s both. Fortunately, recruiting has gotten significantly better in recent years.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: It’s a recruiting problem, a player development problem, or both.


Feb 15, 2021, 7:40 AM

It is both, but mostly Caldwell. And it's cost us games against non-ACC caliber competition in the playoffs. Most notably this year. We seem to coach up 2 and 3 stars to the NFL at almost every other position, but some how NOT at the O-line. So saying it is mostly recruiting is just willful ignorance.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:17 PM

How many of them have National Championship rings?

badge-donor-05yr.jpgmilitary_donation.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:26 PM

Our O-line usually never compares favorably with the likes of Georgia Alabama and some other SEC teams as well as OSU I hope I’m wrong but we don’t seem to be getting those 330 and 340 guys that can move well and you have to feel that is in recruiting Robbie is a class guy but not sure getting the upper echelon o line guys

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:31 PM

Oline recruiting has gotten better. We just have to see if they can be developed. Jordan McFadden, Will Putnam, Walker Parks, and Paul Tchio all have the potential to get drafted. And then you throw in guys like Mitchell Mayes, Tristan Leigh, Marcus Tate, and Ryan Linthicum. We just haven’t seen enough, or any, of them to make that determination.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:33 PM [ in reply to Re: Oline development ]

Also we don’t seem to be developing these guys well Some of the great ones like Hyatt and Carmen seem to get worse each year I feel it is a weakness on our overall tram

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 7:38 AM

Hyatt’s combine score was an “F” but he ranked in 74th percentile for strength. His size and athleticism were his biggest weaknesses. Scroll near bottom.

https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=27708

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 6:08 PM [ in reply to Re: Oline development ]

I thought that the reason we needed a training table, was putting on the muscle that's needed for a position, and taking fat off the ones that were fat!!!

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:32 PM

Couple ways of looking at that.

Way #1 is that we haven't had much in the way of high-end OL here at Clemson. We've had to do a lot with not a lot most of the time. Only true-blue chip guys we really had were Carman and Hyatt and both did make it into the League.

Also, a note on Mitch Hyatt: he wasn't as good athletically as his 5-star rating suggested and he wasn't a massive fan of the weightroom. He was really, really fundamentally sound and as good a technician as Clemson's ever had but his ceiling was only so high. He wasn't drafted because of poor development; he wasn't drafted because he wasn't an elite NFL body and it really was that simple.

So...chicken or egg? Are our guys not going to the NFL because they're not elite recruits, or we not getting elite recruits because of the perception we don't send guys to the League?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:32 PM

(edit...or, well, Carman is almost certain to be drafted in a couple months...sorry for jumping the gun.)

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 6:10 PM [ in reply to Re: Oline development ]

All of the above, quozzel !!!

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


I'm calling BS on the Hyatt was an over rated under achiever


Feb 14, 2021, 8:02 PM [ in reply to Re: Oline development ]

slant, but I will credit you for attempting to spin that utter BS...I never heard anybody close to the program EVER say ANYTHING but great things about his work effort or his limited ability...Truthfully, you're just full of #### on this one guy

2024 white level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: I'm calling BS on the Hyatt was an over rated under achiever


Feb 14, 2021, 8:28 PM

He probably is full of #### about the work ethic. But there’s no lying about the body size, nfl passed because his arms weren’t long enough and his hands weren’t big enough. Was great at the college level but you have to have longer reach to play at the NFL level.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I totally understand why he wasn't viewed as an elite OT


Feb 14, 2021, 8:43 PM

prospect by the pros due to his wingspan, but when I read the pre-draft scouting reports about his lack of development, I found it to be the ultimate indictment on Caldwell...The knock was that his FR tape looked the same as his SR tape...That is an obvious lack of development

2024 white level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: I totally understand why he wasn't viewed as an elite OT


Feb 14, 2021, 11:08 PM

+1
Yes, I remember the same thing and it wasn't the talking head wannabe scouts. Most of the time they just want to sell their narrative but these were guys who drafted as a job.

2024 orange level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: I'm calling BS on the Hyatt was an over rated under achiever


Feb 15, 2021, 12:53 AM [ in reply to I'm calling BS on the Hyatt was an over rated under achiever ]

He wasn't. Sorry.

Know that firsthand from the guys that worked with him.

He punched the clock, and that was it.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


We're not getting elite OL recruits because we have yet to


Feb 14, 2021, 8:38 PM [ in reply to Re: Oline development ]

display the kind of development in OL that we have in other areas, WR and DE in particular, where we have demonstrated an ability to take even raw recruits and ACTUALLY develop them...You would have to be
retarded to not see coaching is the problem here

2024 white level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 11:26 PM [ in reply to Re: Oline development ]

You might not always agree with Quozzel, but he does his homework and I've found his posts to be quite interesting and informative. Same with Leon.

2024 orange level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 5:38 PM

Yikes!! I’m guessing we lost 4-5 games a year with that collection of scrubs.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 10:21 PM

Shows how much DW4 and TL16 overcame with solid WR's.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 7:47 PM

Wow that is an eye opening stat. Wow!

And O lineman are a big focus for teams in the draft each and every year. I do know several of those names were picked up and a few had a little nfl success but nothing significant.

Makes you wonder.

2024 purple level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


We know it's not recruiting and we know it's not PT,


Feb 14, 2021, 8:05 PM

what else could it be?

2024 white level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 10:16 PM

I would love to see some more Clemson OL drafted, but on the flip side, how many titles have UGA, Wisconsin, and all of those big ten teams won?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 2:40 PM

I think you have a valid point there TNTiger17. However, the main difference between Clemson and the UGA/Wisco/ND type teams for the past several years has been QB play. DW4 and TL16's abilities took Clemson near the top, but they haven't been able to get over the hump because of the monumental gap btwn them and OSU/Bama in the trenches. It certainly stands to reason that the staff here should at least look at how to elevate their OL development here, and if that means moving on from Caldwell, so be it. The Tigers will earn more NCs, which should get more OL drafted, and in turn, boost OL recruiting for the future.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 5:25 PM


I think you have a valid point there TNTiger17. However, the main difference between Clemson and the UGA/Wisco/ND type teams for the past several years has been QB play. DW4 and TL16's abilities took Clemson near the top, but they haven't been able to get over the hump because of the monumental gap btwn them and OSU/Bama in the trenches. It certainly stands to reason that the staff here should at least look at how to elevate their OL development here, and if that means moving on from Caldwell, so be it. The Tigers will earn more NCs, which should get more OL drafted, and in turn, boost OL recruiting for the future.



I hear and I find myself on both sides of this discussion.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 10:16 PM

I would love to see some more Clemson OL drafted, but on the flip side, how many titles have UGA, Wisconsin, and all of those big ten teams won?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 10:21 PM

2 five stars. Puts things into some perspective though.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 10:59 PM

How many 4 and 5 star LBs in the same time period have we signed and how many are in the pros?

2024 white level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 8:32 AM

O Daniel and bj Goodson are the two that come to mind. Goodson having a decent career. Anthony also was defensive rookie of the year I believe but dropped off after that

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 11:03 PM

How many 4 and 5 star LBs in the same time period have we signed and how many are in the pros?

2024 white level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 14, 2021, 11:16 PM

Good point actually. Same with every position. You'd really need a ton of research for all teams. Take uga, osu, and Bama - they have big numbers drafted but how many have stuck after yr 1 or 2. Surely someone has that info somewhere.

2024 orange level member flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Crap this is going to be unpopular but noteworthy


Feb 14, 2021, 11:17 PM

Caldwell is one heck of a Oline coach. We run a no huddle offense and if you notice there aren’t a lot of pro teams who favor that offensive attack. It takes a special athlete and not just a fatass to run.
If we switch to a pro-style offense we would unquestionably put more players in the pros but we must remember the hurry offense was brought here by Rich Rodriguez and has done quite well for us over the years.
Is it time for a change? That’s for you to discern. By the way I was not a Rodriguez fan but the hurry up offense has kind of been a mainstay since.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


I agree with Tater....We have the same style OLine that was


Feb 15, 2021, 6:49 AM

here with Chad Morris, running 90+ plays a game. Being able to last that many plays was just as important as being able to block. But as our offense has changed into something else (still not sure what that is, yet), our OLine hasn't changed physically. We may still be a tweener offense...not really needing/wanting the huge motor graders that tire by early in the fourth, nor not really needing smaller, quicker guys who may be more in shape, either.

And to defend the line, I have said on here many times that our scheme is hard to block for...many times we have five guys blocking a minimum of seven. This year, that seven became eight-to-nine on the "run" plays due to lack of creativity on some plays and lack of the type of receivers that mandate DBs playing off a little more.

This past year was hopefully the low water mark that a buddy of mine called two/three years ago because of a few misses in recruiting. It unfortunately came at the same time we had two of the greatest players in Clemson history.

They will play better, and with the influx of more talent, they will be a strong point in the offense in another year, with next year seeing marked improvement.

Good Tigers!

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: I agree with Tater....We have the same style OLine that was


Feb 15, 2021, 7:49 AM

Appreciate your optimism and agree this past year may have been a low water mark. Which is pretty crappy to say with JC on the squad. But with the current position coaches still in place, our ceiling at the o-line really isn't any higher.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

And Dabo could probably hand pick a stud O-Line coach


Feb 15, 2021, 8:39 AM

that has a history of producing NFL talent. I think Robbie is just a really great individual and getting rid of him would be really hard for Dabo. The best way is create a position elsewhere for in the admin like they did Brad Scott and keep him on the payroll but go get a proven dude.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 8:47 AM

Obviously, our development is isn't in line with most of the program sans TE and LB positions, but looking at the list only 4 (since Mac Lain was a TE in his profiles) were in the top 250 coming out of high school, which corresponds with the amount of players drafted. In that case, 2 were/will be draft and 2 were not. Hyatt made the 53 his rookie year and then tore his ACL, so who knows where his career will go. Crowder was a good, but inconsistent college player. Additionally, Isaiah was a 5th round pick in the supplemental draft, which is good given off field issues. The list also leaves out young recruits before Robbie arrived like Brandon Thomas, Tyler Shatley, and Dalton Freeman who all hung around the league for a while.


The question is does the cross training help? Obviously it does for Clemson, but the NFL does not seem to care. For instance, Pollard was #117 guard in 2016, but he played immediately at RT. He then moved around a lot and settled at Center as a senior. Additionally, what is the mark of development? The NFL Draft is great to sell to recruits, but we are littered with undrafted guys who had multiple All-ACC achievements.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I would say that the mark of development at Clemson


Feb 16, 2021, 11:25 PM

is allowing us to run our offense as it is intended. On a basic level, this means:

-Pass blocking to allow our WRs to complete their routes and our QB to have time to get rid of the ball
-Minimizing QB sacks
-Opening up holes for our RBs to run through
-Getting a good push on short yardage situations

I don’t feel like our offensive line has done all of these things well in a very long time. At least not consistently.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 8:54 AM

Parks will be the best of them all, imo. He has made huge strides physically over the last 2 years and has that rare combination of technical skill + nastiness that you see in a lot of elite OL.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 6:51 PM

I agree about Walker Parks. I think Parks and Paul Tchio have huge upside. Same with Tristan Leigh and Marcus Tate. We’ll have an offensive line with 4-5 legitimate NFL draft picks starting. Can’t wait.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

just be glad our success is not based on one position group


Feb 15, 2021, 12:47 PM

Although i do wish we'd do better with this group.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 1:19 PM

It would be interesting to see how many three stars recruited by the likes of Georgia, Alabama, Ohio State and Notre Dame have gone into the NFL. We have converted two out of 17 (Anchrum and Battle).

Also, what is their conversion rate on 4 and 5 stars? Ours is 50% (Carman, Hyatt, Simpson). Do they have a better conversion rate for 4 and 5 stars?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 15, 2021, 1:28 PM

On that entire list, only Carmen had any NFL projection at all coming out of high school due to measurables or perceived talent. Hyatt was always undersized for a possible NFL tackle and certainly not thick enough to play guard. I don't really think it's lack of player development - I just think the guys we brought in were decent college players but were never going to be pros. UGA and AL have brought in more talent in each of the last few years on the OL than we've had cumulatively under Caldwell.

That is changing though as the upgrades in talent will be more evident going forward beginning with Parks.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Battle was drafted, MacLain was a 4* at TE, only ESPN rated him


Feb 15, 2021, 1:50 PM

as an OT, and they had him as a 3*.

MacLain(TE) and Cervenka(DT) also stand out as position changes.

Just a few notes when considering.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


Re: Oline development


Feb 16, 2021, 5:26 PM

This attempt to throw shade at our coaching staff (and Caldwell in particular) certainly looks damning if you know little about the position. You certainly were successful in getting folks to join your pile on. But it's not quite as simple as you try to make it. Using the top 10 Rivals OTs (OG and C have so few 4 and 5 star players the sample size would be too small - another problem you're ignoring) from 2015 (the last recruiting year to completely exhaust eligibility and go through the draft) here is the reality of the position. Of the top 10 Rivals OTs from 2015 exactly 1 was drafted. Only 4 were ever signed. Only 3 ever played a game. 1 of those was Mitch Hyatt.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 16, 2021, 7:50 PM

I think we’ll have more offensive lineman drafted over the next 5 years then we had over the previous 10.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Oline development


Feb 16, 2021, 8:01 PM

The DL development has been great, but the OL has struggled. However, I believe that will change with the high caliber recruits on the OL now. It is much higher on the whole than 5 years ago and the OL does play at a high level minus the interior, this year. I was hoping one of those analyst spots may go to Dustin Fry who was Chad's OL Coach at SMU and Ark. He seems to not be coaching and I thought he did a nice job, especially at SMU. I thought we could bring him back as an analyst and train him to take over when Robbie retires. We will see how all of these big names develop, but Robbie does definitely need to be getting more out of many of these guys.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Replies: 57
| visibility 1
Archives - Tiger Boards Archive
add New Topic