|
Replies: 38
| visibility 1
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Honest question(s) about our QBs . . .
Jan 11, 2018, 8:52 AM
|
|
Let me start off by saying I support the coaches decisions when it comes to QB. They had good reasons to start Cole Stoudt over DW, and KB over ZC and HJ. They are far more qualified to make those decisions than me or anyone here, and KB did an OUTSTANDING job this past season; this is in no way a criticism of him or our coaches. Now, my question: Is our "system" just that incredibly complex and impossible to learn, or are we just recruiting guys that are slow learners? In reading the QB article below, it really made me think. In the National Championship game, we had two true freshman QBs lead their teams. Fromm led UGA all year, all the way to the title game. Tagoviloa was the star of the game. Yet we have guys who have been in the program for a year, or even more, and we here comments about how they are still growing, still trying to process everything, still trying to understand the ins and outs of how everything works, progressing well but still getting there, and so on and so on. Their PT seems to be limited, at least in part, by their inability to understand the system. I can understand if a QB just isn't good enough, if he just doesn't have the moxy or the talent, but that's not what we consistently hear. What we hear instead is that it's just too much, too complex, and takes years to understand well enough to be able to get significant reps. Yet, as we see over and over again, other teams don't seem to have that problem.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
 |
110%er [7723]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5929
Joined: 12/14/15
|
No
Jan 11, 2018, 8:56 AM
|
|
Tua had to know enough of the playbook to play a single half of football. It takes much more knowledge of the playbook to play multiple games. Tua looked great, but UGA was simply not prepared for him. He will be a good QB, but will certainly come back to earth once teams get film on him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [133468]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 26338
Joined: 9/18/12
|
Re: No
Jan 11, 2018, 9:25 AM
|
|
I agree. Tua can be just a one game wonder. Alabama is surrounded with talent and ugas. secondary was not that great.
In Clemson's system, there are a lot of reads that have to be made by the QB. Uga and Alabama are either going to run the ball or pass. KB probably had options he had to make on a lot of our plays. Clemson has plays designed to run or pass but I think most of our plays are reads before the snap is even made. Just my thoughts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
So, if UGA was running our system, Fromm wouldn't
Jan 11, 2018, 9:30 AM
|
|
have been able to do it, and Eason or Brice Ramsey would have been their QB all year. (barring Eason's injury, of course).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [133468]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 26338
Joined: 9/18/12
|
Re: So, if UGA was running our system, Fromm wouldn't
Jan 11, 2018, 9:34 AM
|
|
I don't know. What is your opinion?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10846]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7636
Joined: 1/6/04
|
Re: So, if UGA was running our system, Fromm wouldn't
Jan 11, 2018, 9:39 AM
|
|
Fromm was put onto the field due to an injury to Eason. If he doesn't get hurt...who knows if we would be talking about Fromm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
He knew enough to take over the biggest single game in colle
Jan 11, 2018, 9:27 AM
[ in reply to No ] |
|
football against a powerhouse team that was throwing everything it had at him, and he didn't seem like he had the least bit of trouble comprehending anything. And Fromm led all season long, not just one half, with fantastic results.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6692]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11164
Joined: 10/14/07
|
Re: He knew enough to take over the biggest single game in colle
Jan 11, 2018, 9:39 AM
|
|
I would say our offense is a bit more complex than Bama's is, and along with that Tua was the clear #2 coming into this year and played a good bit throughout the year as well.
I think a lot of it is HJ getting used to the speed of the game at the college level. It's not fair to criticize him for it but Indiana certainly isn't a high school football hot bed, like Georgia was when DW4 played. HJ certainly has the physical traits but adjusting to the speed of college football probably is taking him a bit longer because it was a bigger jump.
That said, Tua is from Hawaii and I'm not sure how good their high school football is there but he was similarly rated as a dual threat to HJ coming out of high school.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
The question is, why do all of our QBs seem to have
Jan 11, 2018, 10:29 AM
|
|
more trouble than, say UGA or Bamma freshmen adjusting to the speed of the game?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8567
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: The question is, why do all of our QBs seem to have
Jan 11, 2018, 10:36 AM
|
|
We run a different offense and don't huddle like UGA & ALA plus they have better offensive lines.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7107]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7321
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Having a better OL makes a huge difference
Jan 11, 2018, 6:28 PM
|
|
No QB could have been very comfortable with the Swiss cheese we ran out there against bama. Why our OL looked so bad, who knows? But they stunk, RBs blocking stunk, QB protection STUNK.
Smiling’s question is a good one, and IMO it’s silly to downplay the bama freshman’s performance as somehow fluky. Georgia’s defense was highly touted all year and that freshman beat them. Say it was because “he only had to beat them for a half is just silly. It feels like backhanded way to justify the inconsistent play and noticeable dropoff in QB production for a certain starter who was third string in 2016 behind Nick Schuessler.
From my point of view, based on what I saw against top quality opponents down the stretch, the OC’s and Streeter need to work HARD on getting other QBs ready to not only play, but to START games. And they need to plug the holes in the Swiss cheese up front.
Message was edited by: Flying Tiger®
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1898]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3418
Joined: 11/7/01
|
|
|
|
|
|
Scout Team [170]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 217
Joined: 2/19/12
|
Re: No
Jan 11, 2018, 2:50 PM
[ in reply to No ] |
|
Saban was smart enough to change QB'S , Dabo was NOT that smart , Dabo should have changed QB'S in the third quarter . I have been a Tiger for 60 years , sometimes I think Dabo is stubborn .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [111217]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 73632
Joined: 9/10/03
|
When some one figures out how to stop a talent like that.
Jan 11, 2018, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to No ] |
|
let us know..
the kid is another Russell Wilson in the making. He will be one of those guys you can slow down, but never stop. And With Bama's consistency up front on the Oline over the past few years, I am not even sure of slowing this kid down will be much of an option..
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12797]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8165
Joined: 3/30/16
|
Re: Honest question(s) about our QBs . . .
Jan 11, 2018, 9:31 AM
|
|
Nice post. Sorry, my thumbs up is not working. ? ??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3431]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3140
Joined: 9/7/02
|
We are comparing a first year starter or freshmen to
Jan 11, 2018, 9:44 AM
|
|
Watson. Rather people want to admit that or not that is what they are doing. Bryant had 1/2 bad regular season game. What Watson did his freshman year was much different than his last year. Everyone says Watson was a "generational talent." Here many people are complaining because we don't have a new "generation" yet.
Is the system that complicated? Yes and no. I was not a great HS football player, but changed schools after my junior year and had to learn a new system. The school I moved to had just gotten a new coach and everyone had to learn a new system. We didn't have a very good season, but were much better at the end of the year than at the beginning. Johnson and Cooper were both learning a new system (Cooper running the scout team his redshirt year isn't learning the system). What Alabama did in the last game was took the freshman and ran plays tailored to his strengths. Why did they make the change, because they felt they couldn't win with Hurst. Why did Clemson not change, they felt Bryant was still the best chance to win. In Alabama's case it worked. We will never know what would have happened if Johnson or Cooper had played the second half.
While is is fun for keyboard coaches to speculate and show their knowledge or ignorance as the case may be, the reality is the real coaches are in much better position to make those decisions. But it makes Tigernet a lot of money because of the traffic. So go ahead and show your knowledge or ignorance, all I ask is respect the players and the effort it takes to compete at this level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Since you responded directly to my question, I assume
Jan 11, 2018, 10:04 AM
|
|
you directed this at me, at least in part:
"While is is fun for keyboard coaches to speculate and show their knowledge or ignorance as the case may be, the reality is the real coaches are in much better position to make those decisions. But it makes Tigernet a lot of money because of the traffic. So go ahead and show your knowledge or ignorance, all I ask is respect the players and the effort it takes to compete at this level."
I guess you missed this part (It was cleverly hidden at the VERY BEGINNING):
"Let me start off by saying I support the coaches decisions when it comes to QB. They had good reasons to start Cole Stoudt over DW, and KB over ZC and HJ. They are far more qualified to make those decisions than me or anyone here, and KB did an OUTSTANDING job this past season; this is in no way a criticism of him or our coaches. "
I am just posing a question for discussion. That's exactly what this board is for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6647]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 9719
Joined: 9/22/11
|
O coaches play calling was just as much at fault for interce
Jan 11, 2018, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to We are comparing a first year starter or freshmen to ] |
|
interceptions as KB's throws. However, after 2nd interception, it would have been nice to see Hunter have a chance. KB had that one long throw to Higgins, which would have been a td, if not for bama db pulling his left arm down for obvious interference. Why the coaches not call for more long passes down the field? Obviously, they do not trust KB, so they kept calling those short play action passes that Bama expected and had Cain and Renfrow double-teamed. The O coaches need to take more responsibility for our loss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [27361]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31820
Joined: 8/19/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8567
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Fromm didn't start all year,
Jan 11, 2018, 10:03 AM
|
|
so your main point is wrong.
Eason started and was injured. Fromm came in and they won.
When Bryant was injured Cooper came in and we lost.
Evidently every team absorb one loss as long as they can win their conference or are blue bloods like Alabama or Ohio State.
After our loss to Syracuse, we'd used our Mulligan and were done with experimenting at QB.
You can question not using a different QB the second half versus Alabama, but QB wasn't the major problem, it was a combination of Oline, RBs not blocking and WRs dropping passes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Good gawd 'amighty people.
Jan 11, 2018, 10:26 AM
|
|
I said Fromm "led" UGA all year, and he did. Eason was injured in the first quarter of the first game. Fromm took over and never looked back. The point is, a true freshman was able to lead his team, from the very first game all the way through the season to the national championship game, in which he played very well. UGA's "system" was not too complicated for him, or at least they were able to dumb it down enough for him to be highly effective, effective enough to win every single game. My point is that the complexity of our system itself seems to be holding our young QBs back more so than at some other very successful schools.
To use your example: When Fromm came in for Eason, things were not too complex for Fromm, whether he just had a very advanced grasp on things, or they simplified it for him, he handled it well and with great success.
When Cooper came in for Bryant, either everything was too complex, or it could not be simplified enough for our 2nd best QB who'd been in the system for a year and a half.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8567
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Good gawd 'amighty people.
Jan 11, 2018, 10:31 AM
|
|
And by the time UGA lost, they had won their division and their one loss Mulligan was factored in so it didn't have the same affect.
You asked for opinions and then when people have differing opinions and don't agree with you, you get defensive.
I explained my treatise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Not defensive, just correcting you where you were wrong.***
Jan 11, 2018, 10:38 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5912]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8567
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Fromm didn't win every single game.
Jan 11, 2018, 10:34 AM
[ in reply to Good gawd 'amighty people. ] |
|
UGA lost to Auburn.
It basically didn't matter when they did because they had the division wrapped up.
UGA doesn't run the same offense we do, so there is a huge difference in what the QB is required to do PLUS UGA huddles and doesn't run a HUNH.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I was wrong - I forgot about UGA's loss to Auburn, but
Jan 11, 2018, 10:47 AM
|
|
it has little to do with my point, which is that Fromm, as a true freshman, led his team all year to the national championship game.
I truly believe our coaches play the guy who they think gives us the best chance to win; I don't believe seniority or loyalty has anything to do with it. I do believe that the complexity of our system makes it more difficult for young QBs than it is for young QBs at some other very successful schools, and I think that works against us at times. That is my treatise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30758]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 34454
Joined: 6/22/03
|
Fraum had a running game that you had to respect
Jan 11, 2018, 10:41 AM
|
|
Bama is bama.
Why do you guys keep using 1 qrt of football to change all of college football?
I was rooting for Bama but now I wish they had loss.If they loss , saban would be a moron for starting a true freshman over a QB who led them to the NC twice. We wouldn't be having these conversations. ...again.
Instead his gamble worked and he is a genius. Now everyone has to start true freshman qbs.
Auburn was the only team to beat bama.. Stidman isn't a freshman and he isnt all world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
We had 2 RBs that averaged 7.2 and 6.3 yards respectively.
Jan 11, 2018, 10:52 AM
|
|
We had 3 first team All-Conference O-linemen. We had a running game people had to respect, or should have.
This isn't about 1 quarter of football - by any stretch, and nobody is saying anybody has to start true freshmen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [907]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 984
Joined: 10/10/11
|
Smiling is right
Jan 11, 2018, 11:12 AM
|
|
His premise of our offensive system being too complicated
to allow a freshman to have command of it appears right to me.
We have seen only one QB since the Chad was here be able to
effectively run it as a freshman. And DW4 was, as has been stated, a "generational" talent.
I am interested to see if TL can step in and handle the system as a freshman because he
has been billed as another "generational" talent.
The Bama offense and the Dawg offense are no where near as complex as the Tiger offense.
Therefore, I believe they are able to use freshman more easily than we can.
Smiling... I don't think our QB's are slow learners. Tide and UGA are teaching
their QB's how to make paper airplanes and Tiger's QB's are learning advanced aerodynamics
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [970]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2416
Joined: 4/2/10
|
Re: Smiling is right
Jan 11, 2018, 5:31 PM
|
|
However complicated our offense is, isn't want too hard for bama's coaches to figure out how to defend it and coach up there defense in 4 weeks. I am 100% sure that no Tiger coaches read t-net because it was common knowledge that bama would stack the box on us, and our coaches didn't seem to have much of a plan to make plays against a stacked box.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16646]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9354
Joined: 11/1/14
|
Re: We had 2 RBs that averaged 7.2 and 6.3 yards respectively.
Jan 11, 2018, 11:16 AM
[ in reply to We had 2 RBs that averaged 7.2 and 6.3 yards respectively. ] |
|
My 'honest' answer is the back-up QB issue is more about ZC not developing than it is about HJ not being ready. The fact Hunter could be in the discussion says more about Cooper, than anything else to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30758]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 34454
Joined: 6/22/03
|
None of those stats mattered when clemson played bama
Jan 11, 2018, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to We had 2 RBs that averaged 7.2 and 6.3 yards respectively. ] |
|
Bama shut the run game down vs clemson.. they couldn't vs uga. That is just one of the differences between bama clemson and bama uga.
The fans and media want to make it all about the qb. Bama defense start ed playing better in the 2nd half. I dunno if uga got to conservative or just couldn't eexcute on offense as well in the 2nd half.
a lot of folks are using that 4th qrt to justify benching kb and starting TL or HJ.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58323]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46288
Joined: 4/23/00
|
"lot of folks are using that 4th qrt to justify benching kb
Jan 11, 2018, 12:42 PM
|
|
and starting TL and HJ".
To be clear, that's not what I am doing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Varsity [243]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 450
Joined: 10/20/13
|
Re: None of those stats mattered when clemson played bama
Jan 11, 2018, 1:01 PM
[ in reply to None of those stats mattered when clemson played bama ] |
|
Ask your self why? You should come to the answer that Bama couldn’t shut down UGAs run game because of 1) they had to respect Fromm’s passing ability so they couldn’t simply stack the LOS and 2) UGA came out throwing the ball -why? To set up their run game and ensure that Bama didn’t even attempt to stack the LOS against them.
If you can’t comd to that answer, then you simply refuse to see it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1577]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 970
Joined: 9/23/07
|
It's the only answer they can give
Jan 11, 2018, 12:58 PM
|
|
I dont mean that in a smart a$$ way, but realistically its the only answer the coaches can give to those type questions. Anything else would indicate that either: A. They arent doing their jobs effectively or B. They just dont have confidence in the backups.
I do agree with your question though. I think this season we gambled that we had a strong enough D, paired with an efficient enough O to be able to impose our gameplan and not need a strong downfield pocket passing game and put most of our effort into making that happen.
On a side note. I AM NOT BASHING, but if you watch the games where we struggled KB did not do a very good job of reading the D and making the right decision for the RPO. With that said it does bring us back to your question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [47639]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30338
Joined: 11/15/99
|
My 1st thought?
Jan 11, 2018, 1:00 PM
|
|
Paragraphs are your friends.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7555]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 8001
Joined: 6/8/05
|
Re: Honest question(s) about our QBs . . .
Jan 11, 2018, 5:48 PM
|
|
POTD.......Go Tigers!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1476]
TigerPulse: 93%
Posts: 1859
Joined: 12/29/04
|
The Answer to your question
Jan 11, 2018, 6:44 PM
|
|
Is yes, we would have won the Sugar Bowl if Hunter Johnson came in after the two Epic Fail INT’s in the 3rd Quarter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1653]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1819
Joined: 12/9/15
|
Re: Honest question(s) about our QBs . . .
Jan 11, 2018, 7:23 PM
|
|
Tua had the last word on the TD, the play prior he took a 16 yard sack... he doesn't make the throw or its covered properly and it's a completely different story... it was 2d and 31 when he made the play. He made the read and made the throw....so the rest is history. Georgia busted coverage is as much to blame as anything Tua did, he hit a wide open receiver (something KB2 had issues with for most of the season).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2504]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1906
Joined: 9/20/08
|
No, it's not just "knowing the playbook"
Jan 11, 2018, 8:19 PM
|
|
Technically "knowing the playbook" is not difficult. The play sets are practiced over and over and over, well known and understood early on. However, when it comes to being the QB, many more things come into play and has to be practically instinctual and committed to muscle memory to be effective. It usually takes lots of games reps to set this. Occasionally you have a Deshaun Watson type that developed these instincts earlier and more effectively than the average QB. Fromm and Tagovailoa fits this mold as well.
The term "knowing the playbook" is really a catch-all phrase that refers to the QB ability to manage the game, manage the clock, read the defense, audible on the fly, throw accurately to the proper read, scramble, execute successfully for gained yardage or score, and most of all, not get your head knocked off while back there...all in milliseconds at times.
The guy that most successfully manages to pull off all or most of that the most consistently will be the starter... every time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 38
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
