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YOUR BALANCE
If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...
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If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...


Jul 1, 2020, 8:12 AM

take 15 minutes and watch. And yes, the people who are burning stuff down aren't educated on this either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGUwcs9qJXY

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"the Blacks"


Jul 1, 2020, 8:17 AM

yikes, have you learned anything?

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Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


point taken, but...


Jul 1, 2020, 8:18 AM

intentional

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oh


Jul 1, 2020, 8:20 AM

.



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Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


WOW.


Jul 1, 2020, 9:09 AM

We've heard almost all of that data piecemeal, but when it's all aggregated and presented on that timeline...damn. Everybody on this board should watch this.

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absolutely...


Jul 1, 2020, 9:13 AM

It is one of the best things I have seen that explains the broken systems that have gotten us to where we are today.

People have to quit being defensive and listen. Only THEN can we come to the table and talk.

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Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...


Jul 1, 2020, 9:21 AM

Well sure that's how things were really bad in the past, but since there's no more explicit racism, there's no reason "those people" can't just pull themselves up by the bootstraps if they're motivated and work hard enough.

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They're just angry for no reason now. Don't even try to have


Jul 1, 2020, 9:25 AM

a conversation with them about how we officially ended all racism well over 3 years ago.

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I know you are making a point...


Jul 1, 2020, 9:40 AM [ in reply to Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff... ]

but I just want to get to the table and start working toward reconciliation and unity. There are many other broken systems not mentioned in the video that need to be addressed.

As long as everybody (white, black, etc.) is living as a victim we will stay divided.

As a white, Christian, conservative leader, I feel an overwhelming responsibility to get people who look and think like me to SHUT UP and listen.

I really feel that we are at a point to make real progress in this area if everybody can humble themselves and value their neighbor.

I wish everybody would take the time to watch this video.

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lol, reminds me of Frank Burns


Jul 1, 2020, 10:27 AM [ in reply to Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff... ]

telling the South Koreans that if they didn't like it, just rent a u-haul and get out of there

loved watching M*A*S*H

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-willmo.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up




Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...


Jul 1, 2020, 9:53 AM

Very good video!

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Abolish Qualified Immunity


I posted this very good article on white fragility...


Jul 1, 2020, 9:59 AM

the other day. It comments on more than just a book on that title.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility

It is interesting that no board conservatives are GITT

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Why do you think board conservatives weren't GITT?***


Jul 1, 2020, 12:19 PM



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null


Re: Why do you think board conservatives weren't GITT?***


Jul 1, 2020, 12:20 PM



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"Get In This Thread"?Or at least that's what Google told me.***


Jul 1, 2020, 12:21 PM



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null


yes, that's it....


Jul 1, 2020, 12:33 PM

in the first 2 hours (at least) I hadn't heard any feedback from those on this board who I know are conservative.

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Yes. Why do you suppose that is?***


Jul 1, 2020, 12:40 PM



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null


I don't know...


Jul 1, 2020, 12:45 PM

do you know? Was it my presentation? 15 minute video?

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Are you suggesting that conservatives aren’t responding


Jul 1, 2020, 12:49 PM

because the video is too long?

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null


I'm not suggesting anything...


Jul 1, 2020, 12:54 PM

I was just throwing out ideas.

I seriously do not know why conservatives weren't responding. I'm getting some responses now.

Based on what I've read, me and you seem think the same way on many things.

So, if you have an idea, let me know.

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Working?


Jul 1, 2020, 1:01 PM



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I really do want to know if I'm missing something...


Jul 1, 2020, 1:06 PM

I get a little tired of reading posts throwing around generalities...the protestors and "marxism" does not accurately represent "the blacks" I know.

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Re: I really do want to know if I'm missing something...


Jul 1, 2020, 1:11 PM



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I would agree with that. T3 I think hit the nail on the


Jul 1, 2020, 1:41 PM [ in reply to I'm not suggesting anything... ]

head for me. I'm tired.

The video is fine...I guess it brings up some good points to some but it's really just a lot of stuff many of us are already familiar with.

But what made me just walk away from the discussion...at least initially...was the thing that everyone else found so impactful. He just wants us to care. I am so sick of this. People care. Americans care. White Americans care. Everyone cares. Wait, no...not Everyone cares, and we will never get EVERYONE to care. But Americans donate more money and time to charities than any country in the world. We are an imperfect country founded in imperfect times by imperfect men, and we continue to strive toward a better and better country. There are innumerable organizations, government programs, laws, charities and general efforts to support the underprivileged. There is no magic wand. He wants us to CARE!?! I resent it. I resent the implication. And I am tired of it.

I believe black communities became less safe the day Kaepernick took a knee. I believe black communities are getting more and more unsafe every day as a direct result of these protesters. And I care about that. The communities where people are being shot for driving through protests, are clearly less safe in this moment. I care about that. This cancel culture is a plague on our free society, and blatantly partisan. The shouting down of counterarguments to BLM...an organization that NO ONE has been able to show me a list of goals beyond defunding or eliminating police departments and NO ONE has been able to show me a cause beyond "LEOs are racists"...is a detriment to this country.

Structurally, the video is fine. I agree that militarization of the police is a mistake and that decriminalizing non-violent drug offenses is certainly an idea that merits serious consideration, but I am tired of these videos where they throw out statistic when it works then say things like "Because of the way the GI Bill was structured, blacks didn't get any of the assistance." Could you please be a bit more specific? Roughly 250 helicopters..."Huey and Blackhawk"...how many Blackhawk?
Because I've never seen a Blackhawk helicopter flying over a police scene. And I agree that grenade launchers seem crazy, but a couple hundred, when there are 800,000 cops? A couple thousand semi-automatic weapons? Some night-vision goggles? So what?

Too many people in prison? Who has initiated prison reforms? Not Obama. Trump.

Soooooo, yeah. I'm tired. Tired of the moving goal posts, the North Korean-esque Generational Sin, the glib calls to "care" , and the claim that I either give myself to this movement in full or I am irredeemably racist...or even if I do give myself over to this movement in full.

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null


so you know (I hope)...


Jul 1, 2020, 2:48 PM

I don't disagree with anything you said. I am not sure exactly what you mean about black communities became less safe in the instances you listed.

Race talk. Was I tired of it two years ago? Was I tired of it four years ago? Was I tired of it six years ago? You bet. I'm tired of everything being tied of race. I'm tired of it being politicized.

I'm tired too. But what are we going to do about it? I'm tired when I get home from work and the wife needs my help with this or my kids need homework or another kid is having particular problem. I just want to sit down and relax. But these things cannot be neglected.

Whether I'm tired of it or not, it's still going to be there. And as we have tired of it this time, it will fade away until it comes back around again.

I bet you that you and I agree on at least 90% of these issues. I'm tired of the protestors. I'm tired of the police being vilified. I'm tired of the media. I'm tired of the cancel culture. I'm tired of tearing down statues. I'm tired of renaming Eskimo pies and debating whether or not moving the white chess piece is racist.

But I'm MORE tired of people saying stuff like "why do blacks not condemn this stuff?" And "why do blacks not want to talk about this stuff?" And "why do blacks think all lives don't matte?" Because blacks, in general, at least the vast majority that I know, do not fit the imaginary stereotypes that these questions pose. And the reason I'm MORE tired of it is because it enforces the stereotype of the white angry conservative.

Now maybe those who talk like this don't mean it that way, but I just want them to stop. It does more harm than good. I'm not going to be able to have a rational dialogue with the people burning down stuff and those who think police are inherently evil. But I don't know anybody like that, at least I'm not aware of it. But I can listen to people who get stopped by police exponentially more than I do. I can listen to people who may be treated differently because of the color of their skin, even if it is just perception. And maybe by listening...maybe just acknowledging how they feel...they might listen to me. Sure, maybe they should listen to me first, but I can only control me.

What I like about this video is not that it doesn't necessarily tell us things we don't know. I like that it does an excellent job of connecting the dots. Sure there might be holes. Yes, there may be missing references. I like that it's not political. I like that it's not preachy.

This video shows a lot of the systems that are broken. I am on record as saying that I do not think racism is systemic. But there are systems, as the video points out, that contribute to inequity and injustice. By knowing this, maybe I can understand why someone might feel angry about their condition. Ad as I stated in the OP, I am pretty certain that the people rioting and looting are uneducated about this stuff.

I have other motives as well. I certainly want to address the injustices highlighted in the video. In my opinion, however, that just scratches the surface. There are other broken systems that this video doesn't hit like the family. It hits all races. It has typically hit poor people harder than the rich, but it is spreading to the middle class and it is killing our country.

The system of the broken family. The system of the fatherless or parentless child. This is a major contributor to all of the problems we face.

You see, as a listener, I'm not condoning bad behavior. No, I can affirm feelings and circumstance but I can point to a better way. I never give anyone a free pass. No one who wants to overcome in life can do it while maintaining the badge of victimhood. I think everyone of us face struggles, some more than others, but we must choose whether or not wee are going to be a victim. We have to take personal responsibility for our own lives.

So yeah, I want it to go away. But I don't think it will. Maybe I'm just an annoying busybody, but I feel compelled to try to help people come together. I'm not sure how much I can influence black people. I'm not sure how much I can influence progressives. But just maybe I can help people who are like me to take a breath, listen, and think. I really think we can make some progress right now if we don't get tired of it and simply let the headlines fade away with no change.

I apologize. I have now officially PO'd everybody. And I apologize if it seems that I don't think people care. I actually think people do care. But because we don't know what to do, like the author, we simply hope that it goes away.

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Not at all...


Jul 1, 2020, 2:58 PM

you just said something that I have lacked the ability to articulate myself. I'm not conservative, but this is the argument I keep trying to make about how unproductive it is to counter a beef with a different beef.

We do it in personal relationships all the time.

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Thanks!


Jul 1, 2020, 10:00 AM

Great video. I read an article in the NY Times Magazine on Sunday that has lots of information similar to that video. I've never been sold on the idea of reparations but this is the best argument I've seen.

If anyone encounters a paywall, try opening an incognito browser window. If that doesn't work, let me know and I'll post a PDF.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/magazine/behind-the-cover-what-is-owed.html


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Geez that was a long article


Jul 1, 2020, 12:56 PM



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when I think of reparations in terms of the proverb


Jul 1, 2020, 1:09 PM

"give a man a fish he is hungry again in an hour. If you teach him to catch a fish you do him a good turn."

Simply throwing out money won't do much. Investing money in programs that give people opportunities to help themselves....yes!

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Re: Geez that was a long article


Jul 1, 2020, 1:23 PM [ in reply to Geez that was a long article ]

Yeah, I noted that part about identifying as Black for 10 years. I haven't read about what the thinking is there, but I wouldn't be surprise if it comes down to the basic issue that there are no bright lines between "races." So a person might have a wide variety of ethnicities in the ancestry, but not really be a part of the "Black" population. In order to have a bright line, we can simply look to how the person actually identifies. Not perfect, but it's something.

As I mentioned, I was never much in support of reparations. What made me reconsider, and this works as a response to what franc just said in this part of the thread to, is that non-Black Americans have been getting handouts all along, and you can see how over hundreds of years it brings us here. The point of reparations, of the sort I would favor, would be along the same lines as those benefits that were provided to other people all this time. Housing subsidies, etc.

The article mentions homestead acts that were available to foreigners and NOT to Black people living here! That's, in my mind, the best argument for reparations. (I'm still not sold; I'd need to see the plan.)

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I don't like talking about large groups of people


Jul 1, 2020, 10:10 AM

like they're some monolithic force.

I think it's more appropriate to think about what I should try to talk about one-on-one with individuals who look different, have a different background, or think different from me.

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so "the black?"***


Jul 1, 2020, 10:12 AM



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No. Aaron. Terrell. Bruce.


Jul 1, 2020, 10:15 AM

More like that.

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good...


Jul 1, 2020, 10:20 AM

my subject line was a representation of what I see on this board

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Yes, to be clear


Jul 1, 2020, 11:17 AM

I was in on way trying to be critical of you or anyone else. I understood your subject line. I was just commenting on the topic in general.

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Re: No. Aaron. Terrell. Bruce.


Jul 1, 2020, 10:26 AM [ in reply to No. Aaron. Terrell. Bruce. ]



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Re: I don't like talking about large groups of people


Jul 1, 2020, 10:15 AM [ in reply to I don't like talking about large groups of people ]

You watched the whole video? Only asking because your response doesn't sound like you did.

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I didn't watch it at all.


Jul 1, 2020, 10:16 AM

Sorry.

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Re: I didn't watch it at all.


Jul 1, 2020, 10:29 AM

I think you'd get a lot out of it if you approached it with an interest in learning about it. Same goes for the article I posted, but the information overlaps.

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I can't really watch videos at work.


Jul 1, 2020, 11:13 AM

Maybe I'll remember to look at it later, though I usually don't log on at home.

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Understood.


Jul 1, 2020, 11:23 AM

I'd be very interested in your reaction if you get a chance to watch it.

Meanwhile, here's the link to the article, which I mentioned in another post but I think I got the link wrong. The history was eye-opening, at least for me.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/24/magazine/reparations-slavery.html


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prod, it's ok, the guy did veggie tales***


Jul 1, 2020, 10:50 AM [ in reply to I didn't watch it at all. ]



2024 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-willmo.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up




Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


Lol...


Jul 1, 2020, 10:52 AM

Was gonna day the same thing

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good video


Jul 1, 2020, 10:13 AM

thanks

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-willmo.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up




Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


Excellent video but...


Jul 1, 2020, 10:29 AM

Judging by the replies so far, the people here who need to watch this probably won't.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


yes, I noted that...


Jul 1, 2020, 10:37 AM

so much for debunking "white fragility"

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You know what the saddest part is?


Jul 1, 2020, 10:43 AM

The guy's last line. "What am I asking you to do? Care."

And that's going to be too much of an ask for some people.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


That pause was effective...


Jul 1, 2020, 10:51 AM

I actually cried

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#metoo


Jul 1, 2020, 11:20 AM

Don't judge me!

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"In 1968 81% of Americans agreed that law and order had


Jul 1, 2020, 10:36 AM

broken down in this country. And the majority blamed communists and negroes who start riots."

That sounds eerily familiar. Funny how I keep hearing about BLM being Marxist or Maoist. I know history repeats itself and everything, but this is an exact facsimile.

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Re: "In 1968 81% of Americans agreed that law and order had


Jul 1, 2020, 12:06 PM

I thought the same... but the BLM leaders said they were Marxist, it’s not just people slinging mud.

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Powerful stuff. Curious - how did the GI Bill not work for


Jul 1, 2020, 12:04 PM

black veterans? Was it due to red lining?

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That was my take away***


Jul 1, 2020, 12:07 PM



2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

after WW2?


Jul 1, 2020, 12:14 PM [ in reply to Powerful stuff. Curious - how did the GI Bill not work for ]

The video seems to point to FHA and real estate policy.

IDK. Everything is up for debate.

What I like about the video is it lays the foundation to how we got to this point, both intentionally and unintentionally.

I have argued for years that we are here because our Founders kicked the can of slavery down the road.

Then, what do you expect will happen if you just simply release a large group of people who are uneducated and have no money into society?

The part that is most troubling are the laws that were passed that made acclimation to freedom even harder.

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Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...


Jul 1, 2020, 12:16 PM



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I give Trump credit when due, and he's hit on a couple


Jul 1, 2020, 12:28 PM

areas bigly, with still much more to be done: prison reform, and opioid manufacturers.

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yep, this video isn't about politics...


Jul 1, 2020, 12:32 PM [ in reply to Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff... ]

Trump, with Tim Scott's help have done great things for the black community, but you won't hear about it. Let the dems put on scarves and put lipstick on the same old legislation.

Makes you wonder why Obama didn't do more.

I'm sure there'll be pushback about pubs in Congress, but certainly if he hadn't shoved through such an unpopular, completely partisan bill near the beginning of his first term, he might not have gotten that Congress.

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I haven't watched yet, but I definitely will. I have said


Jul 1, 2020, 12:41 PM

all along that while I know some real changes are due, as much as anything I think black people want to be heard. Whether or not I agree with all of the demands or ideas, I owe it to them to listen with an open heart and open mind.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


exactly...


Jul 1, 2020, 12:49 PM

I am not asking everyone to agree with everything in this video. I'm especially not asking anybody to support BLM. I don't.

But this is a video from a very non-aggressive, non-agenda-driven source. It is not political. It is not preachy. It doesn't demand or provide solutions.

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It's an extremely complex issue. There must be


Jul 1, 2020, 12:55 PM

open, civil dialogue.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


I should add ... That dialogue can never take place in the


Jul 1, 2020, 2:19 PM

face of rioting, looting, and violence against innocent people and their property. While I am willing to listen and learn, I will not do so under threat or duress, and nobody should be expected to. That's why I'm not very hopeful.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


The conversation never quite got going before the protests


Jul 1, 2020, 2:29 PM

either. Yes, there are unproductive things going on that should not be going on. But saying you refuse to talk to someone who has a problem (a problem that at least in theory you agree exists even if you would argue over its extent) until they present the problem in a way that you find acceptable means we will probably never have to address the problem.

I'm really trying hard not to threadjack this to the gun control debate where calls for mental health screening and treatment last right about as long as it takes to let the gun control debate recede from memory after a shooting.

It all starts to seem like a deliberate way to put off change.

You guys fix this whole black on black violence problem and then come talk to us in respectable way and we'll think about sitting down about this policing problem. Oh, and also don't kneel during the anthem because that offends me, and don't make me listen to politics while you sing pretty or look nice on screen. Maybe then we'll sit down and address your other thingy.

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Yes it did, basically everybody was in agreement that cops


Jul 1, 2020, 2:40 PM

were out of control and needed to be reined back in. Pretty much everybody agreed with it, because it was on the heels of COVID lockdowns and a lot of older people got a taste of that sweet, sweet govt. boot that they doubted existed.

Then we racialized everything and started playing the blame game, now here we are. And if you read his post, he specifically said a conversation cannot take place in the face of violence, looting, etc. against innocent people. Disagreeing with that seems to downplay the actual damage that has been done by these "protests". That's not a stall tactic, that's a self defense instinct. Most people are not inclined to have a dialogue with people who want to burn their house or business down.

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No it didn't really...


Jul 1, 2020, 2:52 PM

Floyd was murdered on the 25th and protests started on the 26th. Floyd being murdered was the third police problem identified with race in a short period along with Amaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor, but they were not the first instances or only things that the protests were about. Kaepernick kneeling was happening a long time before that and there was no move to make any changes. Black and white actors have been complaining at awards shows for several years, and no move to make any changes.

Trump and congress did address part of the problem with sentencing reform which is great. Still, this problem that led to these protests and some riots and looting has been around for a long time without being addressed or acknowledged.

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But for the first time in my life I saw it trending that way


Jul 1, 2020, 3:10 PM

Specifically, because the typical Thin Blue Line crowd got a taste of the heavy hand of law enforcement due to the COVID shutdowns. Most everyone was disgusted by the George Floyd video. It was the best recipe for legitimate police reform we could have ever ask for, IMO.

But when the rioting, looting, and burning started, everybody got nudged back toward their corners. Allowing it to go unchecked exacerbated the problem, practically shoving them back there. Local governments now wanting to come back and crack down on otherwise law abiding citizens due to COVID spikes, after a month of widespread protests and riots only furthers that divide.

And that's not commentary on what precautions we should take for COVID, just the perspective I think a lot of people are looking at the situation from.

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nobody wants to hear this...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:11 PM [ in reply to No it didn't really... ]

but I can understand the emotional frustration of feeling like you have been talking and talking and nobody is listening.

I don't condone violence but can understand lashing out...originally. Now let's stop.

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Yep.***


Jul 1, 2020, 3:55 PM [ in reply to Yes it did, basically everybody was in agreement that cops ]



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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


all I'm saying is it has to start with somebody...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:00 PM [ in reply to The conversation never quite got going before the protests ]

Somebody has to stop being offended and take a breath. "Okay, I hear you. What can I do for you?" Somebody has to do it. It's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about somebody taking a first step.

I'm not talking about acquiescing to group-think pressure. I have not one time hashtagged any political view. I have never agreed that BLM is a good organization.

Any of you guys that are married and haven't worked through differences that you and your wife don't agree on, I want to know the secret. It always starts with someone letting their guard down.

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We also have to find a way to talk about it outside of


Jul 1, 2020, 3:08 PM

politics, I think. Part of the video's effectiveness is that it is largely apolitical, but you can see in some responses that people were hearing it and doing math about who was to blame for certain policies which led them to become defensive in a political way.

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Full disclosure...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:23 PM

another reason I liked it is because it came from Bob the Tomato and Larry the Cucumber.

I felt Veggie Tales was very nonthreatening for the white conservative Christian.

I try to make myself read and watch stuff that I don't think or know I won't agree with. It's a practice of checking your biases and trying to comprehend. However, I always carry my pen with me so I can argue in the margins, but I try to keep myself in check.

When I find something like this, from a "trusted" source that might challenge my thinking, even better.

But yes, I agree, it has to be outside the political realm.

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We've got to drop the "white privilege/fragility" rhetoric


Jul 1, 2020, 3:28 PM [ in reply to We also have to find a way to talk about it outside of ]

And this growing idea that white people have generational sin. Regardless of what you think about it, it's a ###### way to pitch an idea. Sure, you can guilt some people into buying what you're selling, but others have the exact opposite reaction. I'd argue most have the exact opposite reaction.

You've got to talk about things in a way that don't blame people personally. Speak in a way where people don't feel attacked, where they feel like there's a genuine desire to have a dialogue to achieve the same goals. I think they used to call people who could do this salesmen. Maybe leaders? I'm not sure anymore.

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I hope you know I agree with mostly everything you are...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:38 PM

saying. I do not like either one of those terms. And any time I heard those things I used to be offended.

I still don't like the terms, but I have learned to understand what the people who use them are trying to say and not be offended.

I know this is gobbledygook for most people like you, because I used to feel the same way, but if I can diffuse my response, I can take control of my response.

I think a lot of words (not that they do not believe what they are saying) are thrown around to get a response. By controlling my response, I can immediately remove tension.

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Which is great that you can and are willing to do that


Jul 1, 2020, 3:51 PM

But there are three very big problems when this kind of rhetoric becomes common place and accepted.

1) It immediately turns off a large segment of the population to any sort of nuance about your message

2) You have people that will weaponize the rhetoric in an attempt to oppress people. You can already see evidence of this happening. No, I am not saying they're about to load white people up onto cattle cars, but doxxing, getting people fired, etc. is very real.

3) You can't fight racism by using racist rhetoric. Which is precisely what that is. All you're doing is manufacturing resentment in the very people you're trying to reach.

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I agree with some of that...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:45 PM [ in reply to We've got to drop the "white privilege/fragility" rhetoric ]

I don't think white fragility is this overarching idea like the book supposedly says it is. But I do think there are elements of this argument that lead people to make that label up. Pretty much the idea that Kaepernick was doing it wrong, actors were doing it wrong, musicians should shut up and sing, etc. It starts to look like the purpose of deflecting the conversation is to avoid the conversation.

However, there is actually a term that I heard several years ago, "Structural racialization." The guy who coined it was making the same argument from the other side. When you start a conversation with "racist" or "racism" it ends before it starts, but finding a way to talk about race that divests the listener from responsibility for the injustice makes the conversation possible.

I don't think of it as generation sin, I think of it as a rigged relay race that we're trying to fix now, long after the race actually started. The race started in the 1700's and for 200+ years some of the participants were held back from competing fairly. But the race didn't restart when some of the impediments were removed. Some folks already had a huge lead.

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Ok I’ll bite...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:13 PM [ in reply to all I'm saying is it has to start with somebody... ]

I think we’ve done this. The fight against police doesn’t have widespread support because it’s a horrible solution to an issue and we can’t even agree if it’s a widespread problem in the first place. It’s all politics.

With that in mind- what can I do for you?

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first, lol


Jul 1, 2020, 3:29 PM

"With that in mind- what can I do for you? "

Second, I'm not necessarily agreeing with you or disagreeing with you or even wanting to chase another rabbit.

I'm not saying nobody has ever taken the high road. I know that has happened.

The police issues has become complete conflated...which I guess is your point.

You couldn't pay me to be a cop right now.

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No baiting here bud!


Jul 1, 2020, 3:36 PM

You got exactly what I was saying.

I have no rabbit hole here. The only thing I would ask anyone is 3 fold...
1-What is the problem (Not who’s fault is the problem!)
2- How do you propose we fix said problem?
3- Does this fix the whole problem without hurting others?

I said below some things I think we should be looking into with more seriousness.

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I wasn't suggesting you were baiting me...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:41 PM

if I used wrong terminology, I apologize.

On what you stated below, I pretty much agree with. I want to get past the political issues too other issues that I think are even more damaging to the health of our society.

I posted my real motivation above:

https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/so-you-know-(I-hope)-27444275

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Didn’t think that at all. Agree with you!***


Jul 1, 2020, 3:46 PM



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I've taken that first step many times, with the


Jul 1, 2020, 4:33 PM [ in reply to all I'm saying is it has to start with somebody... ]

expectation that she would calm down and get to a point where we could have that dialogue. As long as she's throwing pots and pans at my head, it's useless, and she's got to stop doing that before the dialogue can begin. That's what I'm saying.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


but you do keep your composure through it all


Jul 1, 2020, 4:34 PM

:)

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Of course it has to be in a way that I find acceptable.


Jul 1, 2020, 3:24 PM [ in reply to The conversation never quite got going before the protests ]

It would be for you too. Otherwise it's just force with no respect. That's NOT a solution

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


My point is before the protests no one was listening...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:36 PM

really as I said elsewhere. At some point, someone has to take the chip off their shoulder and listen whether they like the conduit or not. I posted that graphic some time ago where it said something like,"We would listen if you were non-violent" and then it had five panels of non-violent protest over the last few years leading up to George Floyd captioned, "No, not like that..." including Kaepernick.

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I was not listening...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:50 PM

and I think that speaks to Drew Brees' comments that he got him "canceled" recently. Kaepernick, in my opinion, chose a poor platform to make a statement.

Should I have been listening? Probably.

To your point, the violence, which I still disagree with, got my attention. More specifically the ugliness and division, got my attention.

In honesty, this has been a process over several years for me. But I've had to really re-evaluate my response and check my heart.

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I don't see the violence as a good thing in any way...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:53 PM

at the same time, I think some of it is a response to the perception that no one is listening. A lot of it is BS opportunism as well.

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Kapernick chose a terrible platform. The wrong platform.


Jul 1, 2020, 4:00 PM [ in reply to I was not listening... ]

It swung nobody to his side, and turned off the people that needed to pay attention - it drove them away. It divided people further instead of starting a dialogue.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


So in 1956, the number one threat to


Jul 1, 2020, 12:49 PM

"Law and Order" was considered "negroes who protest", and Communists.

That sounds familiar.

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if only we would have taken those statues down then...


Jul 1, 2020, 1:00 PM

just playing the game ;)

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A lot of those statues were not there in 1956. Those are the


Jul 1, 2020, 3:00 PM

ones that I'm OK with being taken down, (almost) no questions asked.

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This might be the most reasonable compromise on that


Jul 1, 2020, 6:18 PM

issue that I've heard in quite sometime. +1

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I appreciated the video as a whole as stated above


Jul 1, 2020, 2:37 PM

I really appreciate the tone of conversation... so in the same tone, these are some of my questions or critiques.

I will say upfront that I am not super familiar with some of the real estate issues he was discussing. I will look into that further for sure!

On drugs- he makes a comparison of crack to powder cocaine. The more appropriate comparison is meth to crack. These have Similar characteristics as in they are both comparatively inexpensive and inherently more dangerous. They also have the same legal punishments and very similar, but inversed, racial demographics. But this doesn’t drive his point. I also don’t have a ton of sympathy for drug users and the argument that trying to get rid of drugs was an effort to target blacks. If the plans would’ve been more successful, I believe the black communities would be a lot better off today. There is a great deal of debate as to why we were so unsuccessful with this goal, but none the less, the war on drugs did not achieve its goal and the goal was honest from everything I can tell.

I would like to see some more discussion on how the US public school system is failing all children, but a higher percentage of whites can afford and chose to send their kids to private school. Thus a failing school system hurts the minorities more. School scores are also directly correlated with family make up and income. This can quickly turn into a chicken and egg conversation, but the schools are still failing and I would think this could/should be a point everyone would be willing to fight for together.

The last piece I would like to see is family dynamics. For every age group, blacks have lower marriage rates and higher divorce rates than whites. This wasn’t always the case. There is also not a ton of debate that a lack of a nuclear family will make it drastically more difficult to achieve at the same level of success as an adult. I came from a broken home and am proud of where I am today, but it’s harder to get on the same path without a doubt! Why are we seeing this? I would personally point to the declines in religion and increase in secularism in this country, but again this debate can be saved.

All in all, every one of these issues leads to very poor financial situations. Drugs, poor scores in school, and lack of a strong family unit combined will crush any chance of getting ahead in life. I was a “victim” of one of these things, but fought to overcome having anything hold me back... We need more personal accountability and responsibility, not less.

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very good...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:07 PM

the family issue you raise is a huge problem we need to address.

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That's embarrassing to the point of shame.


Jul 1, 2020, 3:00 PM

I think many of those issues have been corrected and those which remain must be fixed.

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I love you CT88


Jul 1, 2020, 3:08 PM

sometimes I don't understand what you are saying though.

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Just simple words, brother.


Jul 1, 2020, 7:54 PM

I'm embarrassed that blacks have been treated so badly. So embarrassed that I'm ashamed. It's not a white thing. Imo, it's a shame the anyone was treated that way when we're the greatest nation to ever exist. Humans, huh?

I propose that we demand that teachers teach, cut the crapola and teach reading/composition, basic fundamental math and science and return to history/civics and for heaven sake stop allowing others to enter this nation until we get the economic disparity fixed.

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Re: Just simple words, brother.


Jul 1, 2020, 8:26 PM

and for heaven sake stop allowing others to enter this nation until we get the economic disparity fixed.

Agreed.

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Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:51 PM

Watched the video. Care-listen-learn. I’ll pay devil’s advocate a bit.

The state of affairs is sad indeed, but I’m not swayed from my baseline opinions. Cause and effect is not addressed properly, and the video does not mention one thing, not one, the black community believes it should change. This implies there is NO RESPONSIBILITY on the part of the black community to change anything. I do not agree with that position. This is not a one-way street and there will not be a one-way solution.

How do you prevent concepts of fewer police stops, fewer non-violent (drug) incarcerations, less and/or kindler/gentler police presence from resulting in more drug use/trafficking and more crime, most of which will occur within the black community? More crime leads to more bias of whites against blacks. Where is the improvement?

He says people are angry because the chances of a white male going to jail is 1:23 and black 1:4. Rioting/looting/property destruction, which reinforces the fact that blacks commit more crime per capita, is seen as a way to fix this? Where is the logic? These actions have the opposite effect.

I agree 100% a full review of police strategies, tactics, procedures, etc. is warranted. The role of police is to protect the public from lawbreakers. How can police balance protection of innocent people and themselves with apprehension of and engagement with potential and actual criminals? Tough question, but this is an addressable problem.

One thing the video does not address is the role of the media and social media. Both are motivated and rewarded by sensational reporting and even fake news. This is a huge problem that does not have a good solution. Many, many people are profiting from “racism” and strife creation. These people will continue to migrate from one thing to another to keep racism present and at the forefront of “victim’s” minds. How does this get fixed?

Regardless of what has happened and why…the question is what are we to do moving forward? Caring, listening, and learning is good, but not enough. What are proposed actions that lead to solutions, besides defunding police?

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Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...


Jul 1, 2020, 4:13 PM

When he made the 1:23 and 1:4 comparison, did he say anything about the looting and rioting? Did he say anything about the looting and rioting today? IDK. I might have missed it. I don't know where the logic is in a point that he is not making.

Maybe I did not pay close enough attention. I didn't get the feeling that he was trying to make people feel one way or the other. I thought he was just giving information.

I'm not sure he intended to talk about media and social media. Do they play a role in why we can't get along? Indeed. But I'm not sure where that fits in thematically to what he was talking about.

How does this get fixed? IDK, and the author of the video said he did not know. So I don't think the video was about solutions.

In several of the discussions in this thread, I guess the telling thing is how emotional our responses are. I think when we can get to the point where somebody can say something, whether true or not, whether it is intended to offend or not, and not become emotional, then we might be ready to address the problems.

I'm not trying to be all high and mighty, because I struggle with this myself. But there comes a time that I need to ask myself, "why does that upset me so much?"

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Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...


Jul 1, 2020, 6:08 PM

If anyone with any bit of compassion thinks about what many of these black kids go through, it is sad and upsetting. They are born into a very crappy situation to say the least. They have huge barriers to get through...reminds me of the baby sea turtles making their way into the deep blue, dangerous ocean. The likelihood of them making it is very low.

It's a sad story, but I understand it, and I believe most people understand it. The snowflake 20 year olds screaming at me are the freaking ones that do not understand it.

How does all of this get fixed? These are the questions that need to be asked and answered. Stop freaking rioting and start suggesting tangible fixes.

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91 posts and counting


Jul 1, 2020, 3:58 PM



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yes, very good...


Jul 1, 2020, 3:59 PM

I had to play the race card though, it seems ;)

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There is a documentary on Netflix called - 13th - that


Jul 1, 2020, 5:18 PM

covers a lot of this same stuff in more detail. It's worth a watch. Although - 13th - does seem heavy-handed in that it implies every law was made by white men whose sole purpose in life was to screw over black folks (which I don't believe).

It is embarrassing to see the obstacles that were placed in front of the black community - as recently as the 1960s and 1970s.

I do think it's a leap to say "inner city families were poor, so of course they did crack" as if they didn't have a choice. Admittedly, I don't have much patience for anyone whose problems stem from drug use - and that lack of patience doesn't have any racial boundaries. (Although I'd be curious to hear the rationalization behind having different punishments for crack cocaine vs. powder.)

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Re: There is a documentary on Netflix called - 13th - that


Jul 1, 2020, 5:27 PM

I wrote this above... we’re approaching 100 replies and it gets lost, so I’ll say this part again.


On drugs- he makes a comparison of crack to powder cocaine. The more appropriate comparison is meth to crack. These have Similar characteristics as in they are both comparatively inexpensive and inherently more dangerous. They also have the same legal punishments and very similar, but inversed, racial demographics. But this doesn’t drive his point. I also don’t have a ton of sympathy for drug users and the argument that trying to get rid of drugs was an effort to target blacks. If the plans would’ve been more successful, I believe the black communities would be a lot better off today. There is a great deal of debate as to why we were so unsuccessful with this goal, but none the less, the war on drugs did not achieve its goal and the goal was honest from everything I can tell.


Message was edited by: elwyn07®


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Re: If you are upset that "the blacks" won't talk about stuff...


Jul 1, 2020, 7:21 PM
cocaine.JPG(116.0 K)

Not critiquing the entire video as I believe it has many valid points. However, let's look at poweder vs crack cocaine. I found this from https://www.drugrehab.com/addiction/drugs/cocaine/crack-vs-cocaine/
Seems that crack is worse than powder which could account for the tougher stance (similar to meth according to a poster above).

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Been driving today so just getting on here


Jul 2, 2020, 12:28 AM

I might be inclined to watch a 17 minute unsolicited video If it were lost John Hughes outtakes or an alternate Holy Grail ending, but a monologue on race from a guy who looks like that 55 year old everyone has in their office who gets divorced and can’t stop talking about his triathlon training?

Luckily you have one video’s worth of street cred with me.....I’ll watch it, but if it sucks, oh boy, listen for flight of the Valkyries over your house.

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Re: Been driving today so just getting on here


Jul 2, 2020, 12:37 AM

Gonna go out on a limb and say you’re the only TNetter that can get 3 TU’s in 5 minutes at 12:30 AM on a Thursday morning

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lol, gracias. In S.C. for a couple days but still on central


Jul 2, 2020, 12:39 AM

Time mentally.

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way too much pressure...


Jul 2, 2020, 12:42 AM [ in reply to Been driving today so just getting on here ]

you might hate it

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