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YOUR BALANCE
I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history
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I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 9:38 AM

Since we joined the ACC w have won about 40% of our regular season games. No Clemson coach has a winning conference record. Brad is very close to being break even in conference games. Just pointing it out for those here who feel so put upon he can win like football does. He's the best we've ever had at Clemson results wise. A 40% win record this season would probably put you at 11th or 12 in a 15 team league.

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 10:30 AM

Thanks for that. Yes, we typically have been in the bottom half of the acc. Our admistration needs to set a goal to be in the top 25 every year. Then they should do whatever needs to be done to make that happen. If we are in the top 25 that will take care of everything else.

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 9:00 PM

lthom022® said:

Thanks for that. Yes, we typically have been in the bottom half of the acc. Our admistration needs to set a goal to be in the top 25 every year. Then they should do whatever needs to be done to make that happen. If we are in the top 25 that will take care of everything else.



Goals are nice but it takes resources to jump a level. What if we cut the football budget about $5MM per year which should be enough to be top 25 every year

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I can't wait to see the responses to your post.


Feb 22, 2021, 9:13 PM

I have my popcorn ready!

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 23, 2021, 10:22 AM [ in reply to Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history ]

Whatever it takes...but not at the expense of other programs...womens bball, softball, baseball, or football.
Has anyone ever heard or seen a goal of our basketball program? Has bb or everyone ever stated an aspiration? With no goal isn’t one aimless?
JK what do you think? What is our goal and who set it?

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Brad has stated on multiple occasions that


Feb 23, 2021, 11:02 AM

making the NCAA Tournament is our goal.

That's our goal right now. Each year when Radakovich and Brownell meet to review the state of the program, they talk about the goals for the program and our progress toward them. These goals include everything from wins, to postseason play, to player performance in the classroom, and a myriad of other factors.

If you are envisioning a situation where no one discusses goals and expectations for the basketball program, and we are just floating along with no direction in mind, you are mistaken. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

Also, it's disingenuous to ask for big goals for the men's basketball program, but then clarify by saying that we should do whatever it takes, but not at the expense of football, baseball, softball, or women's basketball. That makes no sense at all.

If you want to see us be a really good basketball program, then it has to be a priority. Yes, we need plenty for football since that's our first priority, but basketball better be priority #1b. That might mean sometimes taking funds normally spent on football and using them on basketball. It might mean making tough decisions for the non-revenue generating sports. Otherwise, you're having champagne taste on a beer budget. That won't work. That hasn't worked in 100+ years of Clemson basketball.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Brad has stated on multiple occasions that


Feb 24, 2021, 1:12 AM

Thanks. I have never seen that goal stated. Personally i’d prefer to be top 25 rather than top 68. Top businesses set goals an do whatever is necessary to meet them. It is not necessary to take money from other sports. There is plenty of money. Build it and they will come so far as fan support goes.

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Not sure if this is a goal...but...


Feb 23, 2021, 11:04 AM [ in reply to Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history ]

They apparently really like grits.

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 9:00 PM [ in reply to Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history ]

lthom022® said:

Thanks for that. Yes, we typically have been in the bottom half of the acc. Our admistration needs to set a goal to be in the top 25 every year. Then they should do whatever needs to be done to make that happen. If we are in the top 25 that will take care of everything else.



Goals are nice but it takes resources to jump a level. What if we cut the football budget about $5MM per year which should be enough to be top 25 every year

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 10:59 AM

40% winning record not with standing, I think you would be hard pressed to find 40 guys who would think we should do better.
Thing is though we should.
Of those same 40 guys, how many would reasonably expect us to recruit good talented athletes. We do recruit good talented athletes ,just not good talented basketball players, Zion Williams not withstanding.
There should be no reason that if Dabo can recruit 4 and 5 star football players as far a way as California, there should be no reason we can't go after at least one ,maybe two 4 star basketball players in this part of the country that schools like Duke ,Kentucky ,UNC, over look or that don't think fit their style of play.
But I don't think we do recruit them from some past articles I have read.
And I don't have the answer to that question.

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 2:44 PM

40? A quick scan through this message board and Facebook fan groups will find you hundreds to thousands of people that think we should be doing better.

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We have recruited and signed plenty of 4 star recruits


Feb 22, 2021, 8:49 PM [ in reply to Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history ]

in the last few years.

These weren't merely good athletes, but talented basketball players as well.

Have you been keeping up with recruiting, or are you just repeating the same stuff others post here on the topic?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Zion was bought and paid for by Duke no question about it


Feb 22, 2021, 8:52 PM [ in reply to Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history ]

Had we done that we’d be on probation for at least three years

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Re: Zion was bought and paid for by Duke no question about it


Feb 23, 2021, 2:44 PM

NC State: Athletes were not doing well in their classes and selling their shoes:
NCAA! Nerf the entire program. Maximum penalty! Die die die!

UNC: Funnels student athletes into artificial classes in a nearly fake program for nearly two decades.
NCAA: This is an academic accreditation issue, nothing to see here.

Literally: Doing poorly in real classes = BAD. Doing well in FAKE classes = good. Is this the RPI?

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 12:55 PM

That is interesting. I would have thought that Rick Barnes would have been better.

Good for Brownell. It can seem like a long slog, but I am glad to see success for our team.

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 1:02 PM

I believe the comparison of BB's ACC record to prior coaches can be a little distorted because he has presided over Clemson basketball during the post-expansion era. The ACC is a noticeable weaker basketball conference since the expansion. The addition of BC, Syracuse, L'ville, ND, Pitt, VT and Miami have not added to the strength of the conference. We now simply play fewer games against good/ranked teams. I'd concede this season is unusually weak, but there are currently only 3 ranked teams, none in the top 10.

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 1:38 PM

we havent had many expansion years versus the core ACC hoops years. MY point is to address those who think BB has wronged Clemson by not winning at the rate of football. Looked at conf games as easiest in trying to see given our history where we would finish on average in the conference then versus where we are now.

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 1:59 PM [ in reply to Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history ]

I disagree. Realistically, you only had about 2-3 players for the ACC each year. UNC, then Duke, then maybe NC State, followed by everyone else. Sure Wake and Maryland would make a decent run but it was basically 2-3 schools. Even with the round-robin format the "regular season" best teams were even more heavily weighted to the research triangle. Now, you have about 5-6 teams with a realistic shot of winning the conference. And that 5-6 teams is the same ratio as the 2-3 teams in a 9 team conference. While in theory we had a 1 in 9 shot of winning the ACC, it is now 1 in 15 if everything is equal but now, there are 13 other programs that value basketball more than us and one on our level (BC) if you take the position of putting money where your heart is...

Next, only have "three" ranked teams this year isn't all that uncommon. I did a list a while back looking at it and guess what, often when there was "only" 2-3 ranked team, chances are the ACC school won the NC. 2007 UNC, 2003 MD, etc are recent examples. Still, you also have to take it into consideration that other mid-majors are more "trendy" to rank higher in the top 25 than what they used to be 20+ year ago.

The ACC has actually added some strength to the overall basketball conference. You added two NC level programs (Cuse and UofL) as well as a very high mid-level competitor in Pitt (very good under Dixon). They expect to win the conference each year. ND isn't bad. BC is kinda on the level of Wake - or slightly weaker. They have had good teams but are normally a decent "also ran".

Then only ding to the basketball side was adding Miami and VT. Miami only because their sport has a shorter tenure than Coach K's career and VT which tends to be only slightly better than us - since they own both a Socon and Metro title.

But getting back to the point, the round robin kinda always allow a team a "shot" at a ranked opponent at "home" now it is a bit uneven but it normalizes over time. Still we are 3-3 vs the top of the ACC with 3 home games and 3 away games... sounds normal to me... except actually winning it. Barnes honored to go 2-4 in that and same with Ellis. Everyone else would go 1-5 or worse.

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 3:36 PM

Expansion has made the ACC weaker but, even if I were to concede that point, we now play the elite teams less times every season. But, that could all be set aside by simply comparing Brownell’s record against the lineup of teams that each previous coach faced and compare the records. I’ve done it before and it’s not favorable. Also, Shyatt is the only coach with a worse record against RPI top 25 teams back through Foster.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 6:54 PM

That is incorrect - or at least does not take accurate consideration of the changes to college basketball within the last 10-20 years.

We added two NC - level teams (Cuse and UofL). Even if they have to put their thumb on the scale. We have added three mid-level teams in a high-mid Pitt, ND, and a weak mid-level in BC. Then we added two lower tier programs. VT and Miami. We have not made the ACC "weaker" but rather build another 7 teams into our tier. But guess what, all would potentially slot in higher than historical Clemson BB. Furthermore, not only have we slotted many programs in above us, Virginia has invested major money to join the big players. You not have Duke, UNC, UVA, UofL, Cuse, and NC State all willing to win at any cost on the schedule. Sure, we dont have a home and home with Duke/UNC we still have 6+ (and really more) games against NC level programs.

RPI is not comparable across decades and eras. You really have to tread carefully as the general expansion of BB programs has increased the pool. Actually all power conferences are generally weaker in the mid-section as the gap between mid-level programs like those of GT, Wake, etc are having more competition from mid-majors. Basically, the mid-level P5 programs of the 80s/90s have become the modern mid-majors. A lot of programs such as the likes of VCU have found that BB is an easy sport to invest in and have a good return. In addition, you also had a fair amount of bias previously that with the limited field kinda controlled the "progress" of building a program. Sure, you had your UNLVs, the Houstons, the Texas Westerns but it was a bit different. How do you adjust the RPI ranking when the field expanded from 260ish in 1980 to 350 today? Or 200 schools in 1960? If you were looking at just the top 25 teams back in the day, you were looking at the top 10% - today, you are looking at the top 7% What is the coaches w% based on era?

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Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 22, 2021, 7:09 PM

Please feel to weight it any way you wish. I consider RPI top 25, which is readily available for every year back through Foster, sufficient. If you do so you will find Brownell certainly no better than most of his predecessors. And pointing to Syracuse as a NC type team since being in the ACC is really disingenuous.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 23, 2021, 12:33 PM

Sure, and the easiest example.

A team ranked 30th today in the RPI is a more difficult opponent than one ranked 25th in 1980. Why?

33rd today = top 9.43% of all teams.
25th in '80 would be top 9.47% of all teams.

If you take the rough top 25, you will completely miss the finer points of the analysis. Just because a data metric (really a composite) does not mean it is universally applied. Next, RPI is notoriously flawed as so much that loosing to "good opponents" is generally good but also that the ranking were both engineered and manipulated like the MVC - thus the highly ranked RPI teams would not necessarily match other rankings.

You can use RPI to inform an opinion (as long as you acknowledge the short comings) - but basing it as a yardstick to measure is really, and factually flawed.

For example, the RPI (n olonger used, but available) has us ranked 7th.... As much as I would like for us to be a top 10 team, I don't think we are 7th.

Cuse has their NC title (within living memory of current players - albeit diapers), they have a few runner-up finishes, two final four appearances in the last 10 years, a near fixture in the sweet sixteen, and as a program can generate and maintain the talent needed to win a championship. The Boeheim era might be fading but they can and will poach/reload on a quality coach easily. The are a program that each yeah, *could* win it all.

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Excellent post!


Feb 22, 2021, 8:58 PM [ in reply to Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history ]

It's ridiculous to hear some of the anti-Brownell crowd here suggest that the ACC isn't as tough now. To hear them talk, the ACC during the "glory days" included 7 teams ranked in the top 10 of the polls, followed by Clemson. They make it sound as if every game we played was against a ranked team. We had no shot, aside from the talent of (insert favorite Clemson coach here). It's hilarious to read the revisionist history, all in the name of minimizing the accomplishments of our current coach.

Yes, the ACC was great during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, but it has also been great since. And now, we not only have UNC, Duke, etc., but also a very strong Virginia, as well as Louisville who is very good. And as you mentioned, Syracuse, Pitt, and Notre Dame are often top 25 teams.

Your point about the ACC of today now including even more programs that value basketball more than we do is an excellent one! So true!

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history


Feb 23, 2021, 8:38 PM [ in reply to Re: I did some quick research on our ACC hoops history ]

Agree. The past several years has seen the ACC drop badly. What used to be the premier gold standard is now regularly spanked in the ACC challenge. I think we won it for the first 10 or so years.

The ACC regularly got every team at .500 in the dance. Now, no way.

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That’s not because the ACC is “weaker”


Feb 23, 2021, 11:40 PM

but explaining it to you will take longer than I have at the moment. Check out Future Doc’s posts to get a better understanding of why.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I can sum it up like this


Feb 22, 2021, 9:21 PM

Clemson basketball is pretty comparable to Gamecock football, historically. Hate to say it but it’s true.

Hey, I still love Clemson bball!

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And yet Brownell ranks 5th in overall winning % out of 7 coaches


Feb 23, 2021, 5:01 PM

over the last 50 years of Clemson hoops.

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Re: And yet Brownell ranks 5th in overall winning % out of 7 coaches


Feb 23, 2021, 8:58 PM

Tiger95 said:

over the last 50 years of Clemson hoops.


Great post with that data. My family had season tickets from the mid 60's through the 90's and I have continued to attend a few games for the fellowship of spending some time with friends. I'm sorry to be another "it ain't as tough as it used to be" but it really isn't. The quality of the ACC teams before expansion was indeed a high bar. The players were there for at least three years and it was nothing but an endless stream of NBA talent coming out of the conference. It was nearly impossible for Clemson to win on the road in the ACC during the 70's and early 80's. Tates Locke was a solid coach on the floor and to see him near the bottom of the list with such a poor winning percentage speaks volumes as to how tough it was. Every conference game at the John was a parade of talent that went from Len Elmore, Rod Griffin, Len Bias, David Thompson, Phil Ford, Bob McAdoo, James Worthy, Ralph Sampson, Michael Jordan, Gene Banks, Mike Gminski, Jeff Lamp, Hawkeye Whitney, John Lucas, Johnny Dawkins and many more. I watched Clemson defeat NC at the John this season. Sorry, but the one and done approach has watered down the talent and the the fundamentals of the game have long since passed us by. Coach Brownell would find the sledding much tougher trying to win pre expansion and pre one and done than the current teams that he faces. When you have seen 7'4" King Ralph clear the glass and take it the length of the court courtesy of a behind the back dribble and then pull up and knock down the 25 footer then you know you have witnessed history that likely won't be repeated at the John. Sorry, but I just don't see that talent level in the current version of the ACC.

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But he is first in ACC winning percentage.


Feb 23, 2021, 11:43 PM [ in reply to And yet Brownell ranks 5th in overall winning % out of 7 coaches ]

And that’s having to play against more basketball powerhouses in an expanded ACC.

But I’m guessing you don’t care about that.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: But he is first in ACC winning percentage.


Feb 24, 2021, 9:57 AM

The rose-colored glasses are on your face, JK. You are the one continually focusing on only the narratives that paint a pretty picture for your beloved Brownell.

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