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YOUR BALANCE
Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?
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Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 9:10 AM

I would say that so far they've been very good, but not great yet. Of the 3 Power 5 opponents we've played, statistically they've been really good, but I still don't see the dominance yet of the 2014 G. Jarrett, Beasley Clemson DL. GT didn't get much done on the ground until garbage time and TAMU & Cuse had very modest rushing stats (71 and 64 yds respectively). However, it seems people know the weakness of our team is in the secondary so they are attacking that more than attacking the run D. Right now the DL can improve in the following areas:

1. 1st drives of game: It seems we get worked on the ground on the 1st drive of every game

2. 3rd/4th and short/ goal line D: I don't know the numbers, but in watching the games, we have not gotten very many stops in this situation. Big Dex hasn't been able to hold his position against the double team. In 2014 we stoned teams in this situation

3. Effective pass rush rushing 4: If we have that many NFL guys on the DL, I don't feel like we effect the QB as much as we should when rushing just 4. We tend to mostly get pressure when we blitz. BV/Dabo has noticed this as well and that is a big reason why going forward you'll probably see a lot more of the 4 DE package of Ferrell, Wilkins, Bryant, and XT on the front 4 on obvious passing downs.

4. Pickney/ Huggins need to take another step: Pickney has shown flashes, but Huggins as not made the jump I thought he would this year. Both guys weren't very good vs Cuse.

Big Dex is still a first rounder, but he has been dropping on draft boards so far. Will be interesting to see if he and the other guys continue to get better as the season progresses.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 9:17 AM

Hard to get a good pass rush being held every play.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 5:42 PM

In high school he seldom had to play past the first half to win. At Clemson, his closest game to 30 minutes of play was GT. Tigers are 5-0. Seems about right.

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Dont forget that they are held...


Oct 3, 2018, 9:17 AM

A LOT without it going called. The refs wont call holding penalties against the opposing team because of the complete talent skew towards Clemson's Dline.

Its like this... I remember hearing Shaq say once that he does not get the same fouls called for him. If someone hits his arm while shooting, the refs dont see it the same way because of how big he is.

If the holds were called, and I mean blatant holds... we would have at least 5 per game. And dont give me the bullcrap holding happens every play. I am talking about arms wrapped around our guys as they are running by.

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Somebody at the ACC office


Oct 3, 2018, 9:20 AM

needs to get the refs a memo to help out the league's only potential CFP participant. It's stupid that they'd skew things the other direction.

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I actually have sent an email to the office twice


Oct 3, 2018, 9:22 AM

last year with pictures showing the arms wrapped around our guys. Tell them the time it happened so they can actually watch the play. I have not gotten a response.

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Re: Somebody at the ACC office


Oct 3, 2018, 5:38 PM [ in reply to Somebody at the ACC office ]

Just remember... in Marathon Man AND Conspiracy Theory...there really WAS a conspiracy... It happens.

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Re: Dont forget that they are held...


Oct 3, 2018, 9:22 AM [ in reply to Dont forget that they are held... ]

A bit of a stretch saying our players get called differently than other players don't you think? That doesn't make any sense. I think refs are calling it fair for both teams, some bad calls some good calls but definitely not giving priority to one team because of the talent level.

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It happens all the time.


Oct 3, 2018, 9:24 AM

It does for Cam Newton. I cant stand that guy and completely lost all my care for the Panthers when they drafted him.

However, he takes more shots that would get penalties for every other quarterback in the league. The refs view him different because of his size and running ability.

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Re: It happens all the time.


Oct 3, 2018, 9:30 AM

I disagree. I'm not going to fact check this website but according to the data they compiled, cam newton has the 6th most roughing the passer penalties against him since 2009 with 28. Assuming refs treat players differently because of their size is outrageous

http://www.nflpenalties.com/roughing-the-passer-by-qb.php?

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LOL!


Oct 3, 2018, 11:06 AM

Read. I said he has more penalties not called against him that would be called for other quarterbacks. I dont care how many he has had called... it is blatant that they do not make calls that they would for others.

The other teams know they can get away with it more and do it more to Cam. If it happens to Rodgers twice in a game and both times gets called, but happens to Cam 5 times and gets called twice, i guess it was even because they got the same amount of penalties called for them.

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Re: LOL!


Oct 3, 2018, 11:29 AM

A hit to the head or a hit to the knee is the same of every player. You support no evidence of refs playing favorites other than your biased opinion of the Panthers and Clemson tigers.

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Are you an idiot?


Oct 3, 2018, 12:17 PM

He clearly said he can't stand Cam Newton and lost all care for the Panthers when they drafted him. He is biased against Cam and the Panthers, but he is correct about targeting non-calls. In fact, it's something the broadcasters say on the air almost every game. Because of his size he doesn't get the calls other QBs do.

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: Are you an idiot?


Oct 3, 2018, 12:44 PM

This all started because people actually think that professional refs are not calling a holding on our opponents because our dline is too talented. The world is not out to get us and that sounds ridiculous.

And as an extension of that, there is 0 evidence to support that bigger QBs in the league get less targeting or roughing the QB penalties. A hit to the head or knee is the same, regardless of the size. Now if you want to make the argument that bigger quarterbacks are less likely to be driven into the ground harder with the defenders body weight on them, that is a different story. It is harder to pick up Big Ben/Cam Newton and drive them to the ground violently than it is to do the same to Drew Brees. In general, refs are NOT playing favorites and they are calling the game to the best of their ability

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Sigh...


Oct 3, 2018, 12:51 PM

I did not say the refs are out to screw Clemson. I said they adjust their calls if someone has a vast advantage. It happens to be our defensive line that has that superior advantage. It is one of the best dlines in the history of college football. If they called every blatant holding call, there would be outrage among the league. They dont call it because it would be called almost every drive.

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Re: Sigh...


Oct 3, 2018, 1:31 PM

I'm sorry my tiger friend but that just cannot be true. Is there any evidence that makes you think that or just eye ball test? If the refs called holding every play, the other team would be forced to stop holding or give up 10 yards every play...the refs are not actively trying to neutralize a specific teams threat because of a talent gap. Maybe we just can agree to disagree.

Go Tigers, Beat Wake

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Like I said...


Oct 3, 2018, 1:36 PM

Last year I two different games I sent email with attached photos or still frames on the replay that showed blatant holding without calls. I dont know what other evidence I can give you. If you cant see the holds over and over, I cant help you. I stopped trying after I took the time to write the emails with the photo and time of game for reference and never heard a response back.

As Dabo said when he was asked about it... I guess we play against All-American Olines every game to be able to stop our Dline as effectively as they do without getting a single holding penalty called in our favor.

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Re: Like I said...


Oct 3, 2018, 1:50 PM

I'm not arguing that refs are missing holdings calls. I'm arguing that refs are not a) missing calls on purpose to level playing field and b) missing more calls against clemson than any program.
Michigan's dline is similar to ours, have you checked their tape? Insert any other dominate defense, have you checked their tape? I think if there was solid, factual evidence supporting your conspiracy theory the league would have reviewed and fixed in order to protect the integrity of the game.

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There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest it


Oct 3, 2018, 1:31 PM [ in reply to Re: Are you an idiot? ]

You can watch our games and see the holding penalties that aren't being called. It's disgraceful.

As for Cam, here's one of hundreds of articles that has been written about it, you can use your googler to find all the info if you care to keep proving yourself wrong.

AFC assistant pro director: "Cam gets hit a lot, but I don't think guys are targeting him, though. He simply doesn't get the calls that other quarterbacks get because he is so big. It's like 'the Shaq rules' in basketball. Big guys take a pounding from little guys because referees don't think the shots have a major impact. ... Remember, Cam has rare physical attributes for a quarterback. ... He will take two or three shots a year that are blatant because he stunts [showboats] on guys. He hot dogs a bit, so he puts his body at risk. Look at the Deion Jones hit."

Former NFL vice president of player personnel: "Absolutely. Defenders are smart. They are going to keep taking shots at him until the referees start calling it. ... I know he's a big man and 'running quarterback,' but he's getting pounded in the pocket and the refs aren't calling it. It's really embarrassing. ... I know they wouldn't be able to hit Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees like that without flags flying all over the place."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000733659/article/ask-the-league-is-cam-being-unfairly-targeted-by-defenders

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest it


Oct 3, 2018, 1:45 PM

Like you suggested, there are countless articles on the other side of the cam newton argument. Here is one that seams to have supporting data from the NFL rather than opinions

Maybe it's a product of him being a big bodied mobile QB, he gets hit harder than a little QB who stands in the pocket. That does not mean those hits are illegal.

Refs do not treat players differently. You saying that they do is what some people would call fake news

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/10/31/nfls-position-on-cam-newton-11-quarterbacks-have-more-missed-roughing-calls-since-2013/

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Re: Dont forget that they are held...


Oct 3, 2018, 9:29 AM [ in reply to Re: Dont forget that they are held... ]

Ive seen more of a stretch this year...DL jerseys that is. Quite a few plays with jerseys being stretched. Too bad we can't use tearaways like Ford did against Maryland with Boomer. D V Looked like a ticker tape parade!

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Honest ?? LOL


Oct 3, 2018, 9:20 AM

After your BS whining during the game Saturday, no one thinks your "honest" BULLSH!T is all that honest. Yet you're too clueless to realize that.

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Re: Honest ?? LOL


Oct 3, 2018, 9:40 AM

OP Is consistently one of the biggest whiners and negative nancies on the board.

Come to think of it, maybe he is one of RU4God2' scoks

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Yes definitely. On nearly every single play they are either


Oct 3, 2018, 9:21 AM

1. absolutely murdering the pocket/running lanes
2. forcing the offense to call plays that limit their influence (TAMU)
3. forcing the OC to bring in extra blockers to buy them time
4. forcing OCs to radically adjust their entire gameplan in hopes of squeezing in 2 or 3 productive drives.

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Re: Yes definitely. On nearly every single play they are either


Oct 3, 2018, 9:24 AM

Yeah and not to mention that teams are game planing around the Dline by utilizing short quick passing routes. Our Dline has been very effective while our secondary has had a few question marks

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 9:24 AM

One thing to consider...or 3. We have played 3 different variations of the triple option in the first 5 games. And, Dungy is a really really good QB, and the A&M QB had every pass caught, when 2-3 or more should have been INT'd or broken up. Reserve your criticism until after the next 2-3 games. Regardless, D is up there in the rankings. I would not trade them for anyone... and back ups are a beast(see No. 3 sack last Saturday).

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Excellent point about the 3 option teams... At least they


Oct 3, 2018, 9:33 AM

were able to save their knees. The DL this year has played much more 'contain' so far. It's a function of the Os they've faced.

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Yes. I think Saturday proved that.


Oct 3, 2018, 9:31 AM

Dungey made a couple of crazy 3rd down plays, but Cuse was completely shut down in the 2nd half.

They couldn't do anything.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 9:32 AM

It’s early. And the opponents style has played a role. I think expectations are really high and I probably don’t think we will see another 11 sack auburn game. With holds and scheming I think they will all have highlights as they go

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 9:32 AM

It’s early. And the opponents style has played a role. I think expectations are really high and I probably don’t think we will see another 11 sack auburn game. With holds and scheming I think they will all have highlights as they go

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Opponent Penalties Per Game


Oct 3, 2018, 9:40 AM

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/opponent-penalties-per-game

Clemson's opponents are very clearly extremely disciplined and well coached... at least when playing Clemson.

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Nice reference... Bookmarked. Thx.***


Oct 3, 2018, 9:46 AM



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we are struggling to get a rush with the front 4 sometimes


Oct 3, 2018, 9:57 AM

I'm not going to blame holding. I think it's because opposing coaches are keeping TEs and RBs to give the OL a numbers advantage.

We got much better results sending 5 or 6 vs cuse in the 2nd half.

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Think some people are misinterpreting the point of the post


Oct 3, 2018, 10:14 AM

This DL was hyped as the greatest front 4 in College football history. Although they are playing well, they haven't played to this "hyped standard" yet. I'm suggesting that they haven't even played to 2014 Clemson DL standard yet (one of Clemson's best DLs ever) and listed areas where they can improve, which aside from being held a lot when rushing four, no appears to disagree with. It is still pretty early in the season so I think there is still time and room for them to get there particularly with a strong finish, but I don't think anyone can deny that they aren't there yet.

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I see where you're coming from


Oct 3, 2018, 1:40 PM

The dline was hyped to be the best in college football history. I think the fact that 3 out of the 5 teams we played were option schemes has something to do with it. They had to play a more disciplined style of reading and reacting in those games.

Our pass rush hasn't been consistent enough. CF has great sack stats. He's been the best of the group. Big Dex has collapsed the pocket a few times but overall not consistent.

We have been a better run stopping DL than pass rushing.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 10:25 AM

Refs are trying their best to protect those poor, defenseless QB's that our DLine is trying to pulverize into a greasy spot. They have probably been instructed to do that based on what I've seen so far. It is pretty obvious as you don't see that too much in other games around the country.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 10:32 AM

Always room for improvement and CW had at least two busts Saturday where he didn’t hold containment and should have. One cost us a score. The other didn’t.

They are under enormous pressure because of our backends ( imo ) to make a big play but in spite of that , coupled with the way our opponents are changing their gp, they’ve played really well. I’d give them a TU and they will only get better.

Give cbv and Dabo credits for seeing the big picture and mixing in next years stars.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 10:38 AM

I have no idea what you have been watching, but the D-line has been stellar. Dex is double and triple teamed just about every play yet still clogs up the middle. Wilkins is very active and effective as well as Bryant and Ferrell Both Pinckney and Huggins have been excellent. I think you are zero for four in your assessment!

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They've been very good, but not "best of all time" good.***


Oct 3, 2018, 10:38 AM



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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 10:47 AM

I think it’s more so on the secondary. For whatevef reason the DBs don’t press on the line most of the time so the WR gets a free release. Also the slot receiver usually have a DB on them that is playing 7 yards off the ball so that doesn’t help the DL either giving up an easy slant or crossing route.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 10:51 AM

Exactly, that’s kinda where I was going with it but I really appreciate you putting it into fb lingo!!!

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Playing press man can definitely be a great compliment for


Oct 3, 2018, 12:31 PM [ in reply to Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far? ]

a dominant DL that is getting good, consistent pressure on the QB. The risk with it is that you are much more vulnerable to the big play on the occasions that the DL doesn't get quick pressure or the QB manages to escape and extend the play.

I don't really have any information to show whether or not we are playing more soft coverage this year, but we are giving up more big plays in the passing game this year than last year so...

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 10:48 AM

Keep in mind everyone, everyone, on our schedule spent extra time in spring and fall scheminhg our D and O. They are showing different looks when they play us. That's why I think we struggle with the opening drive or drives. Once BV has a chance to make adjustments, we do a better job. Also, the other team, unless they are uscjr or similar, will make plays. Especially with getting the younger players quality playing time.

Expecting games with nothing but 3 and outs and never past the 50 is unrealistic.

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You did type some truth...


Oct 3, 2018, 10:49 AM

“I don't know the numbers...”

You sure don’t. And as much as you complain, I couldn’t take you seriously anyway.

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Here are some stats that typically reflect D Line play


Oct 3, 2018, 10:56 AM

Sack rate: 8th
Standard down sack rate: 22nd
Passing down sack rate: 7th
Stuff rate: 15th
Opponent rushing efficiency: 4th
Opponent 3rd and short conversion %: 27th

Now lets compare those numbers to Michigan:

Sack rate: 3rd
Standard down sack rate: 16th
Passing down sack rate: 5th
Stuff rate: 6th
Opponent rushing efficiency: 15th
Opponent 3rd and short conversion %: 79th

And Alabama:


Sack rate: 6th
Standard down sack rate: 26th
Passing down sack rate: 4th
Stuff rate: 28th
Opponent rushing efficiency: 31st
Opponent 3rd and short conversion %: 5th

Objectively, i think it's difficult to say that our defensive line has played better than either Michigan's or Alabama's. Granted there is still a long ways to go in this season and we have played a unique schedule with three triple option teams and a Syracuse team that is very, very good at negated a pass rush, but i think right now we can tamp down on the greatest of all time stuff. In order to be the greatest of all time they first have to be the greatest of 2018 and they aren't there yet.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ2e9xV7-ClihFVJ3kla0ZDxzFCQ7-WXvQRur-nK6gOzo333PqSetw52kEGgbXKb6viGZSbYuJugvRR/pubhtml#

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Re: Here are some stats that typically reflect D Line play


Oct 3, 2018, 11:05 AM

But this includes numbers from the 3 and 4’s that have played? Correct. If so, bama may be comparable but not Michigan. Michigan has had to play all ones and twos in every game because of the score being close.

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Re: Here are some stats that typically reflect D Line play


Oct 3, 2018, 11:09 AM

Stand corrected. They did blow by Nebraska, western Michigan.

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Garbage time stats aren't included but our backups


Oct 3, 2018, 11:11 AM [ in reply to Re: Here are some stats that typically reflect D Line play ]

have definitely recorded some stats in regular game action. I doubt that's had as big of an impact as you think though. At any time, the numbers will get more accurate as the season progresses so we will see how things shake out.

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Re: Garbage time stats aren't included but our backups


Oct 3, 2018, 12:02 PM

Can’t thank you enough TaC. Really appreciate your posts and putting the numbers out there. You have such intelligent posts.

When it’s all said and done, I think with our Tigers more will be done than said!!!

Go Tigers- and keep posting!

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Weve played 3 option teams. We Shutdown sorrycuse in 2nd


Oct 3, 2018, 1:04 PM

Half. If our O would stop turning the ball over and get moving, it would help our D a lot.

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Many team are bringing in an extra blocker, As our secondary


Oct 3, 2018, 4:39 PM

continues to improve you will see even better stats from our Dline. They have been everything advertised - the best offense coordinators have found a way, so far, to somewhat neutralize them.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 5:23 PM

Did you get your talking points from muscoot?

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 6:12 PM

Every bit as good as advertised.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 6:22 PM

Yes, I think they have.

It's that somewhat controversial 'pop pass' or whatever the mess is called that Dabo mentioned in the midweek press conference that has been killing us in games where it's being exploited.

You know...in 90% of the plays that have gained yards or been explosive on us where our D-Line almost has the quarterback sacked or he's literally going down and then magically the ball squirts out of his hand on a last millisecond pass to someone 5 yards behind the developed play where they catch it and then gain a huge chunk of yards since everyone has already committed to the wrong assignment (which is why it's controversial since OL is usually almost always very close to being downfield and being considered illegal receivers etc).

But freaking Jimbo abused it and exposed us on it in the A&M game and obviously coaches preparing for us took note of that and are also abusing the hell out of it.

It's extremely annoying since we should be sacking the QB in a lot of these plays like we were doing dominantly last year, but this 'pop play' in addition to the extraordinary luck these teams playing us have seemingly had to execute it properly almost EVERY time so far has made our DL look much weaker than they are.

That's my opinion on it.

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They've met my expectations.


Oct 3, 2018, 6:25 PM

They are still the best front in the land. I didn't expect every play or game to be OMG awesome.

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Re: Honest assessment: Has DL lived up to hype so far?


Oct 3, 2018, 6:37 PM

No one wants to see this team in the second half of the season when we normally start to peak, that's why Finebaum and ESPN is trying to set a negative narrative about us now.

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