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Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer
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Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 15, 2020, 9:47 PM



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Why...?***


Apr 15, 2020, 10:23 PM



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Re: Why...?***


Apr 15, 2020, 10:25 PM



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Your beliefs are your right... Your callous actions that can


Apr 15, 2020, 10:45 PM

affect the population as a whole aren't... Practicality over the PC BS.

In about 4-6 weeks in SC, we should see the 'opening up'... Unfortunately, McCluster will probably declare it sooner.

As of right now, we have "projections" based on some WA algorithm and really no clue based on actual substantiated data.

Our supposed peak for deaths is still over 2 weeks away and the cumulative toll has risen from ~440 to ~690 in less than a week.

That just shows that they've given up on mediation and are now relegated to estimation. Testing has been pathetic.

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The Constitution is always the Constitution


Apr 15, 2020, 10:58 PM



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7-10 days just to get results on the those deemed testable.


Apr 15, 2020, 11:03 PM

That "lagging indicator" is about to come to fruition. If you have symptoms then "stay at home" until you can't.

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Another thing... By DHEC's own estimates, the unknown


Apr 15, 2020, 11:25 PM [ in reply to The Constitution is always the Constitution ]

cases are somewhere between 6x-7x what are currently known... Those beds aren't reserved for nothing.

I wish the best for your daughter over the next month and after...

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Re: Why...?***


Apr 16, 2020, 7:42 PM [ in reply to Re: Why...?*** ]

If we were under attack by Russia, the Govt. has the power and authority to declare Marshal law, force you to turn your lights out and keep you indoors.

In times of civil unrest, cities have the right to declare curfews. All these for the public good.

Both of those instances, one could argue, deny people the right to assembly.

You can't scream fire in a crowded theatre, which denies you you're 1st Amendment freedom of speech.

It's not a very incisive argument to say that the Gov. of New Jersey repealed the Bill of Rights.

Tucker Carlson knows that, but he makes his living firing people up. He also owns The Daily Caller.

The country has a right to protect itself. And guys like Tucke Carlson profit from hardship.

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Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 15, 2020, 10:34 PM

It’s nice to see the Democrat governors of North Carolina,Michigan and New Jersey help Trump in the upcoming election.Meanwhile we have a Democrat senator from Colorado also contributing to Trump’s re-election.The gift that keeps on giving.

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Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 15, 2020, 10:43 PM

Nah, there's enough of us independents out here that are tired of his antics and understand how bad he's bungled this. He'll have his 38% puppet base but...

Thank goodness Cuban is watching out for us. We just need to put toothpicks in sleepy Joe long enough to get to November.

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Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 17, 2020, 1:52 AM

Trump hasn't bungled a #### thing you friggin' moron, and you know it.

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Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 15, 2020, 11:34 PM

Our founding fathers were also driven by Enlightenment ideology that your freedoms end when you harm other people and infringe upon their freedoms. Or, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Or, rather, "your right to swing your arms ends where my nose begins."

These people have been denied their freedom of religion or right to worship. They can continue worshiping and serving their God, and they can do so from home or through teleconference means like anyone else can.

When they are putting people's lives in danger--ultimately, causing people to die--they don't really have a right to claim freedom of religion, just like some Satan worshiper who wants to perform a sacrifice can't claim it either.

The First Amendment states the government can't outlaw a religion. It doesn't say it can't close public gatherings to save lives.


Tucker also needs to drop the feigned confusion, "I'm just so innocent asking questions" act.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 15, 2020, 11:50 PM



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Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 15, 2020, 11:57 PM

I'm very well versed in the First Amendment and First Amendment law. Again, this goes back to endangering lives, which is not protected by the First Amendment.

-Practicing religion in a crowded space while contributing to the spread of disease is putting lives at risk. Thus, they can't claim an infringement on their religion since they can still worship freely from home, with small groups as sanctioned temporarily by law, or online.

-It can be argued they aren't assembling peacefully since they are endangering lives. You would have a hard time arguing First Amendment rights if you and your crew suddenly ran out into the highway for a protest.

While I agree on Lowes and the liquor store (although please don't shut down the latter), we're talking about churches willfully defying the law and packing people into crowded spaces. And people have died from it. Some of these folks are doing it because they don't even believe this thing is a real threat (see APM's silly post praising Michigan and NC).

At least at the liquor store, they're only letting you in three at a time.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


3 at a time????


Apr 16, 2020, 12:09 AM

you guys have it rough.We still have outdoor dining and bars. And I went to the MMJ dispensary yesterday, business as usual.

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Both of you make good points, but I do think


Apr 16, 2020, 1:58 AM [ in reply to Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer ]

this could become a 1st Amendment issue.

You do not need to be reminded what the 1sr Am says, I do not need to be reminded that people being together can spread the virus. We can start there.

You and I also know that the Enlightenment philosophy to which you referred was among other things a shift in placement of the individual. Truth was defined as external to mankind, which placed the individual as highest in having the right to discern and live it. Society existed to protect that place of the individual, not the other way around. This was a new view, to the degree that Jefferson paraphrased Loche's explanation of it in the beginning of the Declaration: We hold these truths...

I believe principles trump outcomes. So do you, I imagine. "We must all hang together or we will most assuredly hang separately." They accepted a high risk of death to pursue personal freedom, and many have done the same since to maintain it. Freedom of the individual trumps personal life. You and I both agree with this.

If we differ, it is where that line is. I believe the line is at personal intent and personal informed consent. Clearly over that line, people cannot gather to plan an attack: the issue there is intent. Sex is legal, but not if I have aids and you dont know it: the issue is consent, as well as possibly intent. Where there is no harm intended outside the group, and inside the group all are consenting with no intended harm, a gathering cannot be prohibited. A govt cannot say that the gathering is not in the public welfare: only individuals hold that right. So far, I think you and I still agree.

If 500 people want to gather, and a reasonable person is informed of the risk, and if it has been communicated, no Govt has the right to say they cant meet, I do not know if we agree here. You seem to think govt has that right (I could be wrong in assuming that), and definitely think it does not. If a govt can prevent that, there is no meeting it cant prevent by the same reasoning.

The most difficult issue is, for me, the possibility that the virus can spread outside the gathering. However, while it is the most difficult, its not that difficult. If a peaceful gathering cannot be prevented, no one has the expectation that any illness wont spread. Each person can and should use his own judgement. People over 60 and with cardio issues should be much more sequestered than they are. If you dont want to go outside, dont. I believe the line is there, the balance between freedom and risk managed by and accepted by the individual. I like the way Sweden is doing it.

In the principle that individual freedom trumps personal life, my line is much toward freedom at the price of risk. Your line might be more toward life at the risk of freedom, and I imagine you can defend that position. In any case, the question Carlson asked the Gov is a good one, because it is not being asked. Somebody, somewhere, will test it if some of the Gov's dont tone down their "taking pics of license plates" stances. A civil disobedience case on that will end up in the Supreme Court., and we know which way it leans. Better to discuss it openly than politicize it, for both sides.

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Re: Both of you make good points, but I do think


Apr 16, 2020, 10:23 AM

Good post, as you said, I think this is where we mainly disagree:

If 500 people want to gather, and a reasonable person is informed of the risk, and if it has been communicated, no Govt has the right to say they cant meet, I do not know if we agree here. You seem to think govt has that right (I could be wrong in assuming that), and definitely think it does not. If a govt can prevent that, there is no meeting it cant prevent by the same reasoning.

I disagree here when the 500 people are not following distancing guidelines and are spreading it to each other, in turn spreading it to thousands more and costing lives. I especially oppose this when those individuals refuse to acknowledge the danger and dismiss this as a hoax or just another flu.

I put this on the level of anti-vaxxers. While some don't like the government legislating against them, I argue the lives of their children are more important than the parents' freedom since the children can't make the choice. Or like how I don't like ticketing an adult for not wearing a seatbelt, but I do favor him or her being fined for not buckling up a kid.

I put strong value in a person's (adult) freedom over the risk to their own life if that remains their choice. But when their willful ignorance or recklessness endangers the lives of others, I think it's time to force them to comply.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


My post TL;DR: There are some in our govt who seem willing


Apr 16, 2020, 9:46 AM [ in reply to Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer ]

to take the US back to the stone ages economically under the idea of "stop covid". Govt checks could be worthless with another $2 Trillion stimulus. Whether for ideological or political purposes, I dont know, but some resist any suggestion of economic activity, or any activity, until the virus goes away, and the date on that is 2021. At current practices, there wont be a US then as we know it. Govt doesn't get to make that decision. We each do.

If a person who votes R likes it when an R politician says its okay to open activity, but doesn't like it when a D says it:
And if a D voter likes it when a D says it not not an R:

We will have given our Declaration and 1st Amendment standing back to the govt, having surrendered our liberty for either ideological or political purposes. This stopped being about covid a long time ago, it seems. .

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I agree we're seeing government overreach now.


Apr 16, 2020, 10:19 AM

I'll point to Isle of Palms thinking they can just shut down their whole island to the outside.

It's a fine line, no doubt.

Following 9/11, I was extremely vocal here about surrendering liberties for the sake of security, and it wasn't received well by most. The majority seemed okay giving up freedom to protect us from terrorism.

I see this as a different threat. Whereas speaking out against our government was very necessary when they trampled our freedoms post-9/11, I don't see keeping people from public gatherings (whatever they may be) as a civil liberties issue--I see it was a way to prevent lives from being lost.

I agree there's a fine line here economically and fighting the virus, because economic ruin will ultimately lead to more lives lost and weakening of our nation.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


There is probably no way for us to uncover the actual


Apr 16, 2020, 11:00 AM

point of disagreement between us via notes. Takes more back-and-forth, in quick fashion, to get to the actual issue.

I will say here that your 9/11 example is a great point. We rolled back a lot of civil liberty protections, and we have seen how one example of that, the FISA court, can be used for purely partisan purposes. All those 9/11 genies need to go back into their bottles, but I am afraid it's too late for that. I will point out that in the post 9/11 era, the D's didn't like what the R's were doing to restrict personal liberty, and now the D's like what the D's want to do to restrict it, and the R's now want personal liberty while they sacrificed it before. It has to be more about politics than covid, or 9/11. I am convinced it is all politics, however, on both sides.

You and I can continue to disagree about the 500 person gathering. You believe the people need protecting, to the extent of saying its not covered by the 1st Amdt, and I say the individual can manage and own the decision, and that to do otherwise gives freedom to the govt in return for nothing. As I said, whether that is actually our disagreement or not we cannot fully discern on this board. But I am willing to say, okay, we disagree there.

What is happening at the national level is far beyond that. One party seems willing to take the country down to nothing simply to point the blame and win a political battle, and the sad thing is that they can accomplish the first without getting the second. This his hate fueled. Unless we recognize that, and separate the hate from truth - hate all one wants, but don't sacrifice everything to do it - we will emerge from this much weaker than before, the opposite of WWII. 2020 could be our darkest moment.

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Re: There is probably no way for us to uncover the actual


Apr 16, 2020, 11:16 AM

One party seems willing to take the country down to nothing simply to point the blame and win a political battle, and the sad thing is that they can accomplish the first without getting the second.

I'll have to disagree here. This is a bipartisan case of incompetent, politically-driven bad decisions.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Sure. I was referring only to the automatic criticism


Apr 16, 2020, 12:00 PM

of any comment regarding optimism at opening society. That is one party's reaction. But yes, you entirely right that the other party is i self protection mode regarding what should have been done better. Its full on politics, truth out the window. Reverse the parties, and the same conversations are taking place in reverse. As you said, it happened with 9/11.

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IOP has always thought a lot of themselves.


Apr 16, 2020, 3:59 PM [ in reply to I agree we're seeing government overreach now. ]



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Sullivans Island did.


Apr 16, 2020, 10:12 PM

The people who live at Folly complained because all of West Ashley came to Folly Beach and pretended the rules didn't apply to them.

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I'm going to guess that a good bit of this stems from


Apr 16, 2020, 10:38 AM [ in reply to Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer ]

Lakewood NJ.

it's been weird there for years

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Did Congress pass a law banning physical church


Apr 16, 2020, 11:02 AM [ in reply to Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer ]

gatherings or right to worship we're not aware of?

It would be great if we could channel the angst of those protesting and uprising over the social distancing necessity (working well apparently based on actuals vs projections) impacting church gatherings and direct it towards federal officials to effectively surveillance test so we can deal with facts instead of conjecture, and highly politicized conjecture at that.

It's mid-April and we're still chasing ghosts, the tests we do have seem unreliable, and there's no coordinated effort at hand on any front apparently to take this crucial step forward so we can best and safely get back to work and gatherings without creating new hot spots in the process that reset the whole mechanism.

Fact: Schools will NOT reopen, anywhere, until a full assessment of the threat and spread is apparent, and we are still at ground zero in that department without adequate testing and knowledge. Without schools open, we will continue to have a fractured workforce and economy.

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Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 16, 2020, 7:47 PM [ in reply to Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer ]

T3Tiger said:

I don't dislike the governor, and he actually gave a decent interview. I give him credit for even going on there. That was just a really bad statement to make. It's all over everywhere now.

This is actually what the 1st Amendment says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So they have the right to free exercise of religion as well as the right to peaceful assembly. Most churches have taken steps anyway on their own, which was a good thing. I think one of the biggest things about this has been the inconsistency of these regulations...you can't have a group of 15 people in a Synagogue but you can have many more in a Lowes or a liquor store.




It says it very clearly "shall make no law". And no law has been made that infringes on people's rights. It's a ridiculous argument. This is a Pandemic, your right to assemble doesn't over-ride my right not to die.

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You stay home then


Apr 16, 2020, 9:29 PM



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What lawsuits are those***


Apr 16, 2020, 9:45 PM



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Re: What lawsuits are those***


Apr 16, 2020, 9:52 PM



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I googled and found nothing. What did you find?***


Apr 16, 2020, 9:53 PM



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Re: I googled and found nothing. What did you find?***


Apr 16, 2020, 10:03 PM



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Thanks I'll check it out.***


Apr 16, 2020, 10:32 PM



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The Texas one appears to be a no-go.


Apr 16, 2020, 10:35 PM

I'll check out the others tomorrow.

https://www.txcourts.gov/media/1446355/supreme-court-of-texas-orders-04-08-2020.pdf

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Might be wrong but I think what happened in TX


Apr 16, 2020, 10:42 PM



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Re: Might be wrong but I think what happened in TX


Apr 17, 2020, 8:43 AM

OK. Just located the California case: it is Case No. 5:20-cv-755 in the Central District of California (federal court in Los Angeles). I'll keep tabs on that one.

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This is in no way a First Amendment issue.***


Apr 15, 2020, 11:49 PM



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Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer


Apr 16, 2020, 12:04 AM

Tucker thinks he is asking the tough questions, except he is not.

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Mother Tucker...***


Apr 16, 2020, 1:22 AM



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If he had gotten an answer other than, "I didn't think


Apr 16, 2020, 2:05 AM [ in reply to Re: Guessing the NJ gov is regretting this answer ]

about it", I might agree with you.

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It won't be long now until all the independent testing...


Apr 16, 2020, 4:07 PM

going on now will show that millions have had it or have it without showing any signs of being sick. Thus, the fatality rate of this bug is near a typical flu season.

When that happens the people will begin to doubt the validity of the warnings and fear cast across America by the bureaucrats and politicians. Mass protest will happen and the politicians will have to react.




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