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Topic: As a conservative, South Carolinian, and American
Replies: 74   Last Post: Dec 10, 2020, 7:12 PM by: NC_Tiger_
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Replies: 74  

As a conservative, South Carolinian, and American

emoji_events [9]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:16 AM
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I am utterly embarrassed at the Texas, et al lawsuit, which now includes South Carolina. It's one thing for the President and his legal team to do what they've been doing...it's what we all expected. But to have other government leaders latch onto this, knowing full well the inanity of the legal arguments, is devastating. There is no way the Attorneys General of these states are not fully aware that there is no legal basis for what they are doing. It's obvious they are doing it for political reasons, to cast themselves as "fighters" with the President, due to his deep popularity among Republican voters. They'll lose the case, obviously, but they'll win with their voter base. And I guess that' what matters these days.

I've voted Republican my entire adult life, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, but this is flat-out embarrassing.

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Yep. Still can't call myself a republican.

[3]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:20 AM
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I've said for years our problems are not political, they're systemic. And we're seeing that play out before our eyes. They are structural, not political. The mechanics of the Constitution are broken. And to think REPUBLICans would be the ones to actually attack the electoral college, the very same nightmare they incorrectly envisioned Hillary doing in 2016.

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I vote Republican 90% of the time, the other 10%

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:23 AM
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for other conservative "third-party" candidates, but I've never called myself "a Republican," and things like this are why. I don't want to be associated with this kind of partisan foolishness. It's always around, it's just that it seems to be on the biggest scale I've ever seen. States suing other states because their people voted for a candidate they don't like? What have we come to?

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When Republicans start acting like democrats.......


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:33 AM
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Well, we're seeing it. And that scares the #### out of me more than occupy wall street, BLM, Antifa, or whatever. When the good and decent people are co-opted to believe the things dems have co-opted their base to believe, when that happens....well.

A lot of republicans have pivoted, seen what's happening, and recoiled. A large sector though, those in leadership especially, have followed Trump, and they are acting irrational. Others have gone off the wingnut cliff, and good and decent people too. The GOP has become what it despises. The old two wrongs don't make a right deal kinda.

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These Republican House/Senate members are just afraid of

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:00 AM
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Trump and his crazy minions with long rifles that could be coming to their homes. They all know this is going nowhere, they are just playing along to make Trump think he has hope. The SCOTUS has already ruled that the Pennsylvania case was unconstitutional, and so is this ridiculous case coming out of Texas.

All of this is an embarrassment to our democracy. This is all for show, but will go nowhere. Yes, Trump had 74.2M votes, but Biden had 81.2M votes for President. The states have certified their elections, and there was no evidence of widespread fraud.

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Why do they need to play to Trump? He's a lame duck


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:15 AM
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If they know he's out, and nothing will come of it, the politically correct thing to do in that scenario is throw him under the bus. That's what is supposed to happen. That's how people like Harry Byrd and Strong Thermos stayed in Congress for 200 years.

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Trump will continue to play President on TV following

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:13 AM
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Biden's inauguration. He'll have a set looking like the Oval Office where he will broadcast speeches and rants. Half of his base might not even realize it's fiction - they'll accept it as an "alternative presidency" working in the wings. The Trump Reality Show is not going anywhere anytime soon. Pubs will have to continue to suck up to him and the millions of voters he commands for several more election cycles.

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So 'we comin for dat asz,' is why they are filing lawsuits?


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:24 AM
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Hyperbole much?

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Why else would they do this? The individual states


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:37 AM
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have certified their elections, and they do not show the "massive" voter fraud that Trump claims.

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Is there one single county in America, out of all the 50


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:18 AM
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states, that have not certified their election results? Even Coffee County in GA, which wouldn't certify their re-count, certified their original. Every single solitary county, with bi-partisan election overseers, has certified their vote, with no systemic or massive fraud exposed in any single one of them. That is rock solid, and a testament to the integrity of our election system from top to bottom.

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One of the saddest parts of all of this is that

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:55 AM
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the triumph of holding an election in a shadow of a global pandemic, and with the specter of foreign bad actors, without any major issues, has been lost.

The result is not what I wanted for President, but I am very proud of how this country accomplished this. It's a testament to ingenuity, compassion, and hard work.

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For a party to call themselves the champions of the

[2]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:25 AM
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Constitution (and I believe they generally are, relatively speaking!) to make such a mockery of it is truly heartbreaking.

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Re: Yep. Still can't call myself a republican.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:48 AM
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You two RINOs need to get a room.

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Congrats. You're part of the problem.

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:37 AM
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Prod and Tiggity are two of the most thoughtful, reasonable conservative posters on this board and you stopped just short of calling them liberals just because they don't buy into your orange man nonsense.

Maybe you and all the other deplorables should get a room?

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Run along Stewart, before I get bored of behavin'.


They both voted for Trump.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:58 AM
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They are part of the problem.

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Re: They both voted for Trump.

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:06 AM
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I have never voted for President Trump.

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Re: As a conservative, South Carolinian, and American


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:24 AM
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Just be yourself and call yourself nothing.

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How is the legal argument insane?***


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:28 AM
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Inane, not insane.

[2]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:45 AM
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Right off the bat, the argument that the states are violating the "Electors clause" of Article 2 is mind-numbingly silly and baseless. The legislatures are choosing the electors, per Article 2, in all of these states. There is no universe in which that is not happening.

And then the idea that a state has any grounds or injury to sue another state because they think THEIR laws weren't good. That's a slap in the face to the autonomy of the states that is central to our system of governance in the United States.

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It really is a huge slap to the REPUBLICans.

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:05 AM
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By contesting the electoral college votes, and questioning that system that keeps us a "republic", that gives dems all the ammo they need to actually change it. Then if you get a popular vote, we are no longer a republic, as founded. And we suffer the fate of all large and diverse democracies.

A good conservative would see this. The dems attacked the electoral college in 2016. BUT FOR IT, Trump would have lost. GWB would have lost. Now Trump has lost WITH IT, and they're attacking it. Very dangerous stuff.

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Disagree.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:12 AM
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The constitution gives all power to decide elections to states' general assemblies/legislature. Legislatures decide laws governing elections in each state. The Governors, SoS' and even local election officials altered or added to the voting system set up by the legislation in MI, WI, PA and GA. Those alteration, changes or additions to state laws outside the legislations in those states are unconstitutional. That's quite simple, conceptually.

How does Texas have a gripe? If I cast a legal vote for X and another person cast an illegal vote for X's opponent my vote is negated. That is wrong and unfair to me. That is an extremely simple situation but in essence it makes the point that 18 AGs and The POTUS are making since electoral votes determine who is the POTUS and VP. It's about dilution or disenfranchisement of electoral votes.

What Texas is saying is 'since the SCOTUS decided that all counties in FL should be recounted equally according to state law all states should be held to the same standard by the constitution. That's not to say that all state laws must be the same but that all state election and counting procedures should be according to that state's laws as approved by that state's legislators.

Texas isn't saying the state laws in GA, MI, PA and WI aren't good. Texas is saying those states held election which didn't follow state laws which were determined by their state legislators.

All this is really an over simplification but from what I've read it satisfies my curiosity. Simply saying it's inane, lacks grounds or is a slap in the face to autonomy ignores the constitution having given all power to state legislatons to determine election laws and how they are executed.

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Conservatives will rue the day they attacked the electoral


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:24 AM
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college. It's our best friend, and the only thing that put GWB and Trump into office in the first place. It is a friend to rural voters, conservatives, and the GOP. It is a key to keeping us from being a democracy. It preserves states rights and prevents a popular election. New York, California, and urban voters will run the country without it, and would have since day one. That level of disenfranchisement is a whole other level over what we have now. That is why popular democracies the size of the United States always fail.

Don't attack the hand that feeds you. Unless you want a revolution. I would not put that past being Trump's goal.

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We'll all rue the day we turned our elections over..


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 10:58 AM
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to a computer program which originated in a third world country to fix elections for socialist dictators.

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You've just bought it all, hook line and sinker...

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:05 AM
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I realize why - it gives you hope that the subject of worship you have chosen to follow blindly will be re-elected, but dang...

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You are making things up.

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:12 AM
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Find me this sentence in the Constitution:

"The constitution gives all power to decide elections to states' general assemblies/legislature." I'll save you time: it's not there.


Article 2 of the Constitution says that the state legislatures choose the electors. No where does it say "all power to decide elections" goes to anyone.

It's none of Texas's business if a state doesn't follow their own laws. If that's true, then the courts in those states will take care of it.

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Re: You are making things up.

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:29 AM
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Sorry, states choose electors, and the state legislatures decide how. Every state legislature has decided on a popular vote to do this. (With a couple of states splitting up districts.)

It's quite an activist reading of that clause to say that legislatures have all power over all elections. The clause is only about appointing electors to the Electoral College.

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Re: You are making things up.

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Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:31 AM
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It's none of Texas's business if a state doesn't follow their own laws. If that's true, then the courts in those states will take care of it.

And they did!

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If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Re: You are making things up.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:32 AM
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The legislature makes the laws governing how elections are held. Arguing that the original bills governing election laws are not drafted and passed in assemblies held by the legislators is making things up.

Neither the governor nor anyone else other than the legislators or judges can legally alter the guidelines set forth by the legislature. The US constitution makes this clear. Texas obeyed Texas law but PA, GA, MI and MN.

Had you watched the video I posted you would have seen a constitutional law professor explain these concepts in detail. I'v also seen Alan Dershowitz explain it the same way. We'll see how the SCOTUS views this. They may dismiss it but I believe they will not find that Gov and SoS can alter state election laws randomly and at will.

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If it were true that the governor or SoS

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:39 AM
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Could not influence how the elections are conducted, then it would have been stopped when it happened. The truth is, whatever they did passed Constitutional muster, and it's only a month after the election that we have other states that don't like the results.

Earlier today I read an EO from Gov. DeSantis in Florida before the election that suspended part of a state election law. Why isn't Florida being sued?

"Neither the governor nor anyone else other than the legislators or judges can legally alter the guidelines set forth by the legislature." You keep saying this, but it's not in the Constitution.

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Legislators can assign or distribute some or all of their...


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 1:37 PM
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power to others. Your boss might assign a task to you but that doesn't empower you to violate company policy or his guidelines. I don't know how or why Desantis changed something but perhaps state laws allowed for those changes.

There is ample evidence that in each of the four states named in the lawsuit that they had changed things which they were not permitted to change according to state law.

I know in GA there was a 'friendly lawsuit,' filed by Stacy Abrams and her group which was resolved in court allowing and providing for things which were against existing laws. I understand the SoS agreed to the terms. I've read that the entire thing was kept from the legislation until recently.

State laws can not be changed by a SoS or a Gov. You know how this works. Laws which are passed into law can't be rescinded by a gov, SoS or the legislation. There is a process to create law and a process to amend, rescind or replace them. They aren't subject to other methods.

You are denying the way laws are created and what it takes to change them buy suggesting that my statement, ""Neither the governor nor anyone else other than the legislators or judges can legally alter the guidelines which are set forth by the legislature."

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Re: Disagree.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:32 AM
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The constitution gives all power to decide elections to states' general assemblies/legislature. Legislatures decide laws governing elections in each state..




This is simply not true. The Constitution gives all power to decide elections to the voters. Those voters elected representatives merely certify the vote count, they do not get to decide elections on their own.

SCOTUS will not even hear the Texas case. How states run their elections is up to each state. Texas has no say over how other state legislatures set their election rules.

What is astonishing to me is how Republicans openly support this effort to truly deny the will of the voter for mere partisan gain.

It is, in fact, a blatant attempt to STEAL the election and defy the will of the people. It's unamerican and unthinkable in a Democracy.

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Re: Disagree.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 1:08 PM
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Rong

I dont think they can avoid this one.

Everything being done is part of the legal process.

Not true, just the opposite

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No evidence, based entirely on emotional reaction and pander

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:46 AM
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ing to a low information base.

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########/


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:22 AM
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I'm still waiting on someone anywhere to explain how a fraction of a vote ends up in the vote totals. I reckon Horatio, half a boy, was voting in all 57 states.

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The whole "fraction" formula is just not correct. Why would


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:56 AM
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the individual states certify such a case? Why can't Republicans believe that Trump lost the election by slightly over $7M votes? There is no halfway position on Trump. People are either completely enamored by Trump, or they can't stand him.

Back in 2016, Ted Cruz said this " Donald Trump is a pathological liar, and a narcissist." That is the true Donald Trump. Cruz is only playing a part in this attempt today with the hope it somehow gets Trump's base to like him. See link below for Cruz's remarks in 2016.


https://www.cnn.com/2016/05/03/politics/donald-trump-rafael-cruz-indiana/index.html


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Are you saying there were no reports of fractional votes?


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 10:55 AM
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I've posted so many examples of fractional vote for both candidates and also in the total votes columns that most people here simply ignore the truth. The following is a snip from the NYT original feed.



As you can see from each column reporting votes they are reported in fractions. I also point out that the percentages of the votes on each consecutive batch went 54% for Biden and 46% for Trump.

I'd also ask how anyone justifies the negative votes for Trump and ask what type of black magic is working such that fractional and negative votes are reported?

®


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Re: Are you saying there were no reports of fractional votes?


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:37 AM
    Reply

The following is a snip from the NYT original feed.

What "feed" is this from? Can you locate it anywhere other than conspiracy websites?

Look, I'll play along and figure out what those numbers mean if you can actually show where they originally showed up. Conspiracy websites with JPEGs and no links are not 100% reliable.

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If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


Speaking of screen shots, this one will blow your mind, 88

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 1:50 PM
    Reply

Captured by a hacker from George Soros' laptop...



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OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG***


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 2:04 PM
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2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


This is part of the evidence on Col Waldren...


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 2:37 PM
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sworn statement. Yes, it's some of the evidence a dozen lower court judges refused to hear.

His affidavit and another couple thousand are part of the SCOTUS case so justices will review this is they decide to try the case.

I'm fully aware when I read spin that it's spin. I read enough NYT, WAPO and other national progressive publications to recognize spin and I likewise recognize spin in conservative articles too. I can tell when someone on either side is taking a molehill and proclaiming it's a mountain.

I glean news because it's all biased these days. I believe the man's testimony and I believe most of the others who have testified to seeing 3am deliveries of ballots, transporting ballots from NY to PA and the rest. You guys think I'm an idiot but I can tell when people are out kicking their coverage and separate the hyperbole from the facts.

When you say conspiracy websites are you including NYTs, WAPO, PBS and the other publications which promoted the Russian collusion hoax. Until you face your own conspiracies you have no credibility with which to pointing out mine.

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I am not sure what you're referring to.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 3:13 PM
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Pretend I'm completely in the dark on this fractional voting allegation. Where is an ORIGINAL source for seeing these fractional votes? Honestly I have been googling for anything on this, and I don't see any actual election results being reported as fractional.

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


this was debunked the first time it was proposed


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 10:58 AM
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which was before the election in 2016.

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2016/11/02/fraction-farce-not-fraction-magic/


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Re: this was debunked the first time it was proposed

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:37 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGrL5C4uS1s

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How is it not?***

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:50 AM
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Because...


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:00 AM
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No one has entered any credible evidence to show that widespread fraud caused Biden to win. It's also absurd to argue that fraud occurred in just states where Biden won.

This is simply partisan hackery to overturn a legitimate election and take the power out of the hands of the people. And to subvert our democracy.

Even you know it. You just want your guy to win anyway possible, #### the consequences.

The courts have tossed these ridiculous suits out. Bipartisan officials in each of these states have stated there was no fraud. This is absurd.

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This lawsuit is not claiming any vote was fraudulent.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:19 AM
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This lawsuit attempts to say that legally cast votes in those states should be invalidated.

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Re: This lawsuit is not claiming any vote was fraudulent.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:24 AM
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Well, then that's even more ridiculous/embarrassing.

"Hi, we don't like the results so we want to subvert democracy just to get our way."

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Maybe if voters did more than wag their finger

[2]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:58 AM
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or mail a sternly written letter in response to this kind of behavior, they wouldn't do this ####. Vote his ### out.

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Prodigal is the Susan Collins of the PnR board***

[3]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:01 AM
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Great, I'm never not going to see that going forward.***

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:03 AM
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Re: Great, I'm never not going to see that going forward.***


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:11 AM
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I assure you, as of this moment, Alan Wilson


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:09 AM
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has lost my potential vote.

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Your last paragraph there is why they will never change***

[4]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 8:59 AM
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He's a big part of the problem.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:51 AM
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Just paying lip service.

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Wow! What a courageous stand! That should teach them


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 9:48 AM
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a lesson. All talk. No courage. No action.

Enabler.

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Just posting my opinion.


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:17 AM
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I'm not sure what "action" you want me to take. It's kind of out of my hands.

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You serious, Clark?

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:32 AM
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It is the voters fault that we are experiencing this kind of crazy.

Stop voting for candidates who support and enable this kind of behavior.

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...I did, do, and will....


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:40 AM
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Are you just talking to people in general, or are you specifically talking about me?

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Re: ...I did, do, and will....

[2]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:43 AM
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I think they're talking about when you said, "I've voted Republican my entire adult life, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future."

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


I did not mean to imply that I've always voted

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:47 AM
    Reply

for every Republican. I have not voted for a Republican for President since 2004. But 90% of the time, I vote for the Republican candidate, not that I'm basing it on their party. I evaluate candidates on their own merits.

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Well...


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:06 AM
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Alan Wilson doesn't exactly ride the integrity train.

But yeah, it's embarrassing all around. This isn't something anyone wants on his resume.

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Re: As a conservative, South Carolinian, and American


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:27 AM
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I think that everyone should back up and take a hard look at this lawsuit. Texas joined by 17 other Republican states is asking the Supreme Court to ignore the will of the people in 4 swings states so they might get those legislatures to appoint Trump electors.

It is not in the least hyperbolic to say that this attempt, were it successful, would be the end of our Democratic system.

To set aside the will of the people in order to install a preferred candidate into the executive branch is exactly how despots come to power.

Partisanship over the constitution, the republic, and the will of the American people.

I don't understand how one can blindly support republicans, democrats, or any party over the welfare of our country and constitution.

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It amazes me that the same party who was railing


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 11:35 AM
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against judicial activism a month ago is now advocating for the USSC to overturn a democratic election.

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States Rights? I love that the SC AG is on board with other


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 12:32 PM
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states telling South Carolina what to do.

SC is probably the state that most most other states think needs help along those lines.

He hasn't really thought this through. Just more of the GOP pissing in their pants to keep their ##### warm.

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Re: States Rights? I love that the SC AG is on board with other


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 3:36 PM
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Maybe the state politicians see the truth that you just fail to recognize....

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so what are you going to do about it?***


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 1:01 PM
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Perhaps its a warning shot for future elections

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 1:05 PM
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See Georgia right now

As Trump said, if this chit doesnt get fixed, republicans will never win another presidential or senate seat ever again

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Republicans shouldn't have to cheat to win. Shouldn't they


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 1:52 PM
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simply adopt policies that will appeal to a majority of the country for a change.

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What needs to be fixed?


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 2:54 PM
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People voting for candidates you don't support?

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I strongly hope Republicans will nominate candidates


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 3:03 PM
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Who will earn the votes of a large chunk of the 80 million or so who voted for President-elect Biden.

Yes, I believe that is the fix that is badly needed.

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Re: As a conservative, South Carolinian, and American


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 3:34 PM
    Reply

It's a slam dunk lawsuit. Maybe you need to do some "critical thinking".

Everything you now know is a lie. Everything!

Step back and use some logic and a news source that is not owned by one of the 4 propaganda groups.

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I have not watched a news story about this.

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Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 4:07 PM
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I have read the brief filed by Texas, and I have read the Constitution.

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...and Ohio.***


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 5:14 PM
    Reply



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Re: As a conservative, South Carolinian, and American

[1]
Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 6:12 PM
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Yeah, keep voting for them even though you clearly disagree with the direction the party is moving. That'll show 'em.

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Re: As a conservative, South Carolinian, and American


Posted: Dec 10, 2020, 7:12 PM
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Replying to the original post...

I'm certainly not embarrassed. How can this embarrass me with the history of the democrats over the past decade or so? Not possible.

Democrats, in their group think, believe anything goes if in their mind it helps achieve the end goal. Anything. As a result, they have no morals, no ethics, no idea of even what a perception of impropriety may look like. Pathetic.

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