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CU Medallion [67688]
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I havent watched but it is Wva 83 Tex 40 w 7 min left
Jan 20, 2020, 9:00 PM
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in case youre a sahka smart or huggins fan
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All-In [43991]
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Maybe games like this will help convince people that Shaka doesn’t need to be our next coach.***
Jan 20, 2020, 9:22 PM
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CU Medallion [67688]
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Re: Maybe games like this will help convince people that Shaka doesn’t need to be our next coach.***
Jan 20, 2020, 9:23 PM
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Sure hasnt done much down there.
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All-Conference [441]
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Re: Maybe games like this will help convince people that Shaka doesn’t need to be our next coach.***
Jan 20, 2020, 9:50 PM
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his recruiting has been good.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I'd take him in a heartbeat at Clemson
Jan 21, 2020, 8:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Maybe games like this will help convince people that Shaka doesn’t need to be our next coach.*** ] |
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Sure they had a really bad night, but they're still 12-6 on the season and in position to make another tournament. In his first 4 years there he made it to as many NCAA Tournaments as Brownell has made here in 9 years. He's only had 1 bad year in 2016-2017, the other 3 years he made the NCAA Tournament twice and won the NIT last year.
So yes, if he was unemployed and we were in the market for a new coach, sign me up.
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Oculus Spirit [96798]
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It's amazing to me
Jan 21, 2020, 8:21 AM
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that you acknowledge the importance of administrative support, facilities, etc., but don't seem to care that Brownell has only had those things in place for the last few years.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I'd take him in a heartbeat at Clemson
Jan 21, 2020, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to I'd take him in a heartbeat at Clemson ] |
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No. Only two NCAA appearances in 4 years. At Texas. Considering the resources at UT... he is vastly under-performing. Never advanced past the opening round (hey OP) and we have one S16 visit. We have over performed.
Yeah, Shaka started off in a better spot too... Rich Barnes was in the NCAA 16 of his 17 years.
Shaka has missed it more times in four years than RB did his entire stint at UT.
"Havoc" and the Op/Shaka etc school is *dead* or relatively dead. I would rather promote an assistant football coach... maybe.
Texas OUTSPENDS Clemson 2.5:1 in just the recruiting budget.
Meanwhile, Clemson and Texas spend about the same on Football Recruiting - 1.7 mil to 1.8 mil, but Texas is 580K on Basektball compared to 260K for Clemson basketball.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Yes. Shaka's system of havoc is better suited for a school
Jan 21, 2020, 9:19 AM
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like Clemson than it is at Texas. He hasn't even used that system at Texas because he inherited a roster of slower bigs. He has recruited a ton of talent in the form of 4 and 5 stars, but the 1 and done or even 2 and dones are not good for the style that made him famous at VCU.
If you were to put him at a school like Clemson where he can be more focused on developing players that fit his system over 3 or 4 years and he gets back to havoc, he would be very successful in my opinion.
Also, OP's full court press and Shaka's havoc that he employed at VCU were very different.
I've seen a lot of commentary about how havoc isn't working at Texas, which is odd since he's not using it.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Yes. Shaka's system of havoc is better suited for a school
Jan 21, 2020, 10:03 AM
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Not using Havoc/Press is/isn't the issue. Actually, it *could be* but that is a different argument. Shaka is a decent mid-major coach... maybe. Not sure if he is a P5 coach. And that is the problem is that he has not adapted well. Then again, not one former VCU coach has adapted well out that direction.
In addition, lets not put VCU's success under Shaka... Grant/Capel did just about as well - Grant especially. But then again, VCU was a very good basketball school as soon as they chased my father off the practice squad decades ago. That alone would be enough to propel a team to greatness because who else wants a 6'2" power forward? Different times.
OP/Havoc was generally the same scheme. Slightly different adaptations and I would generally say that OP was better at it. OP and Shaka both used the diamond press, but OP preferred a bit more of a FC man press. Shaka leans more into the diamond (which is what "havoc" really is but most folks will not grasp that), but I though that OP shifting between the two offset the diamonds issues.
Shaka abandoning the press is a sign that it is dead and what kind of coach can't adapt?
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I disagree in regards to Shaka just using the diamond press
Jan 21, 2020, 10:35 AM
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His main style are two versions of a full court man-to-man press where his best defender would guard the PG after getting the inbounds pass and force him outside while a backside guard would come in for a trap near the corners/sideline. He would often mix between that and just a full court man defense because it looked the same for the inbounds passer and the guard bringing the ball up the court. He would certainly mix in the diamond press, but his full court man press more closely resembled Rick Pitino's full court defense in my opinion.
I actually thought OP was in a diamond press as a primary press and rarely went to a full court man, but I could be mis-remembering. There was one year against GT in the ACC Tournament where GT was inbounding, quickly getting the ball to the half court corner and then right back to the center in the front court with ease, creating wide open buckets. I was screaming at the television begging OP to change out of the diamond.
I also liked Shaka's defensive philosophy in the half court with havoc and utilizing a deep bench of athletic defenders who are all capable of switching off picks for 40 minutes as opposed to some coaches who would choose to hedge for 38 minutes and then try to switch in the last 2 minutes, or vice versa.
Shaka abandoning havoc is not a sign that the press is dead and I think it would work fine at a P5 school, just not a P5 school where you're recruiting 1 and dones, or even 2 and dones.
Now, if you want to talk about Shaka's adaptability, well I can't disagree with you there as of today. But it's still early in his career.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I disagree in regards to Shaka just using the diamond press
Jan 21, 2020, 11:34 AM
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Lol 12 year old memory here.
I think it isn't that Shaka only used the diamond, rather they deployed it differently (and often for longer). I think it was more about intensity between the two - so you are correct there. Shaka seemed to used the diamond with intensity (which is what Havoc generally reflects the diamond, high intensity - so yes, you need a deep bench of defenders there). Often Shaka would stay in the diamond the whole game and I don't think when into man often (or at least a more limited fashion). Purnell's high intensity was FC man/1-2-2. The diamond was for Purnell a lower intensity press and then the 1-2-2 was when he wanted to push it. If OP felt that the team was a bit gassed, we would fall back to the diamond a bit more. OP had a unique "opportunistic" soft diamond, then a 1-2-2 to "peak". Shaka gave the 1-2-1-1 a few tweaks too. Yes, his half-court was very good too.
I think I remember the GT game (it was booker's or hammond's last ACC run?). Even as the lowest seed, playing in the home town is going to be tough. Yeah, we should NOT have lost that game. Anyway, if a team had a fix for the diamond, OP was in trouble as he could not keep the FC man going.
Do you remember OP using a 2-2-1... I can't remember but I am sure OP used it somewhat but I just did not ID it.
And as for the press in general, I think Nova is a good example that as a whole, it is not dead, just the high/low intensity diamond. With teams focusing more on having more "smaller" (but larger handlers) flexible players that focus on space and 3pt shooting, leveraging weaker handing opponents is just a lot harder.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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There was a stretch where I think OP did use the 2-2-1
Jan 21, 2020, 12:21 PM
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where he put his front two defenders with their backs to the inbounder, facing the guards to block the inbounds pass to the opponents best ball handlers. I can't remember who those two front defenders were and I tried to search for video and can't find anything, but I remember watching it and being shocked he was trying something completely different.
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Team Captain [466]
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I’m confused,
Jan 21, 2020, 12:17 PM
[ in reply to Yes. Shaka's system of havoc is better suited for a school ] |
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are you saying that Shaka is recruiting too well for his own good? At this point in his tenure at Texas he is coaching his own guys that he recruited, if he truly believes in his system why hasn’t he just recruited guys that are tailor made for his system? Also if you think that especially talented Freshman and Sophomores can’t play in the havoc system then the rebuild for his next program, would take at least 3 years.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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In a really over-simplistic way that's what I am saying
Jan 21, 2020, 12:35 PM
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but it is more of a theory than anything else.
Havoc, full court press, etc is not a perfect system. I think we all learned that with OP, right? At the end of the day, it's probably not a good fit at a Texas, UNC, Dook, Kentucky, etc where you have the ability to recruit the best players in the country. But for mid-majors and mid to lower tier P5 schools it can elevate a program to compete. Shaka used it to get to a Final 4, but to be fair that was really his only tournament run.
Where I struggle as a Clemson basketball fan - would I rather have a program that runs a system like that where we compete consistently but would take perfect matchups to make any sort of a post-season run, or would I rather have a traditional tough defense and deliberate motion offense that has success every few years when we get the right mix of a special group of players?
This is probably a bad comparison, but I look at havoc as being similar to the triple option in football. It gives teams that are less talented in terms of star players the ability to compete across an entire season, but if you face the right teams with an ability to shut it down you've probably lost the game before it begins...with some exceptions.
And also, yes a rebuild to move to a system like that would take 3 years.
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Team Captain [466]
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Is he aware of the fact that he’s recruiting too well?
Jan 21, 2020, 1:05 PM
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and if so why hasn’t he just recruited guys without NBA potential that would fit his full court press system?
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All-In [43991]
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Shaka has been a disappointment at Texas thus far.
Jan 21, 2020, 1:30 PM
[ in reply to I'd take him in a heartbeat at Clemson ] |
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He built his reputation at VCU, which as you know, is one of the easiest schools to make the NCAA Tournament. Since 2006-2007, which includes four different head coaches, they have made the NCAA Tournament 10 of 13 seasons. One of those misses was under Shaka, where they went to the CBI instead.
He did a great job at VCU, but so has every other coach they've had for the past couple of decades. Their Final Four run under Shaka was historic. But as we often see with pressing coaches like Shaka, Purnell, etc., that style doesn't work nearly as well in major college basketball as it did in the mid-major ranks at a school like VCU.
Despite having a huge basketball budget, at a school that supports basketball very well, Shaka has under performed at Texas. In his four full seasons at Texas, he is barely above .500 overall (71-66, a .518 winning percentage). In those four years, he is 31-41 in the Big XII, a .430 winning percentage).
In Brad's first four years at Clemson, he was 74-58 overall, a .560 winning percentage. In those four years, Brad was 32-36 in the ACC, a .470 winning percentage. This is despite Brad inheriting what I believe was a much more difficult coaching situation, at a school without nearly the financial or fan support for basketball Texas has. For someone as critical as you have been of Brad, I am surprised that you think Shaka would be an upgrade based on the above comparison.
I also disagree that Texas is "in position" to make the tournament this year. Texas is currently 66th in NET ranking, with a 12-6 overall record and 2-4 record in the Big XII. Aside from their 4 point win over Purdue early this season (who was ranked #23 at the time, but has slipped to 10-8 overall since then, and is currently 9th in the Big 10), their other three games against ranked opponents this year haven't been competitive. In those three games (against Baylor, Kansas, and West Virginia), they have lost by an average of 20 points.
Texas's two Big XII wins this year are against Oklahoma State (currently 0-5 in the conference) and Kansas State (1-4 in the conference). In their non-conference schedule, their 10 wins are against a strength of schedule of 132. The only positive for their tournament resume right now is that they don't have any quad 3 or quad 4 losses (currently 10-0 against quad 3 and 4). However, they are just 2-6 against quad 1 and quad 2 teams).
What is your basis for saying that Texas is in position to make another tournament?!?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Shaka has been a disappointment at Texas thus far.
Jan 21, 2020, 3:35 PM
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Yes, I do not see a path (baring a miracle) for Shaka/Texas reaching the NCAA and I expect Texas to let him go. Texas is in the top 5 in basketball recruiting expenditures and getting "meh" level returns means Shaka will go (especially with TTech rising). They didn't fire Barnes to miss the tourney. being blown out isn't going to keep him anyway.
As for Shaka, VCU's path was slightly easier. The CAA was interesting but a bit of a mess with re-alignment. A10 was a little bit better but still had attrition to the BE/AAC. The stronger schools were leaving the CAA (Richmond before, GMU after, ODU, ECU). However, interesting note is that he only won the conference tourney twice (one with the CAA and then A10) and never won the "regular" season. Normally bounced between the #2 and #4. So it wasn't that he was running away with the mid-major. Also note that the CAA championships were normally help in Richmond. I kinda point to VCU as being the "App State" of basketball. Most of its history is since the 70s/80s and it punches well above its weight in the one sport it cares about (although VCU is normally very good at both Soccer and Tennis).
Really, the better coach in that group/era was Jim Larrannaga? Lagannza? Lagrangia? :P But Miami swoopped him up. Still, he had done both extremely well and struggled at Miami.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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If Texas goes 8-5 the rest of the regular season
Jan 22, 2020, 8:42 AM
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then I think they will make the tournament. Beating LSU in Austin this weekend would be really helpful for them and then they have 2 games they should win against TCU and Iowa State.
If they win those three games, they would likely lose the next three at Kansas, home vs Texas Tech and home vs Baylor. That would put them at 3-3 with the next 3 games that should be wins at Iowa State, home against TCU and at K-State = 6-3.
If all of that happened, they would need to find 2 wins from the rest of their schedule: home against WVU, at Texas Tech, at Oklahoma, home vs Texas Tech.
If they get to 20 regular season wins, avoiding Q3 and Q4 losses, with wins against Purdue and LSU then I think they would be in without needing some kind of miracle. A B12 tournament game win would probably seal it for them at that point.
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Team Captain [466]
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Purdue is now 10-9 I don’t
Jan 22, 2020, 9:02 AM
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know if that’s a win to be proud of.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Purdue's current net ranking is 38
Jan 22, 2020, 9:21 AM
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so as of today it is a good win for a tournament resume.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: If Texas goes 8-5 the rest of the regular season
Jan 22, 2020, 9:04 AM
[ in reply to If Texas goes 8-5 the rest of the regular season ] |
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If they go 8-5, then yes, they have a shot... depending on a few other teams but that would be a Brad Brownell level of "recovery" from being left for dead to a bubble team. 8-5 will be 7-5 in conference the rest of the way out correct? or 9-9 in the B12.
That 9-9 would be Shaka's 2nd best season at Texas.
I am interested in the UT vs TCU and ISU games and that will likely be their season. Luckily for Smart, TCU is up/down team and Iowa State has played a similar schedule to UT thus far (@Bay, @tt, Ku, won OU). To finish at least mid-table or above, UT must win those.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Yes, 8-5 would have to be at a minimum 7-5 in
Jan 22, 2020, 9:28 AM
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conference. If they lose to LSU then it would require 8-4 in conference the rest of the way.
Agreed about ISU and TCU, those 4 games will determine Texas' season. Lose one of those games and they kind of do need a miracle win against Baylor, Kansas or WVU.
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Legend [17235]
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Judge - I got you penciled in as next MBB HC. Historic and
Jan 21, 2020, 8:46 AM
[ in reply to Maybe games like this will help convince people that Shaka doesn’t need to be our next coach.*** ] |
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trend settting using a message board to select a coach ____ but there’s got to be a first for everything!
Everyone thought Dabo was a reach but it worked out. Imagine if Judge takes us to Back-to-Back Hoop Championships - the sports talking heads would explode and posters on sports message boards would think they know something!
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