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Legend [17888]
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Is "Christianity" the problem with our nation? Absolutely!
Jun 8, 2013, 9:38 AM
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With the world in general? Absolutely!
Why? Because the world rejects God, and His Son Jesus Christ, who gave birth to the church with His sacrificial death and resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father.
And as bad as it is now, how much deeper in the pit these will fall when God finally calls His true family home.
Oh yes, there is a true family of God, and not everyone is in it.
"Well, go home you Christian *******," one may say. "We'll have a party when you finally leave." Really? Now who is excluding who? And, who is being excluded from what?
There will be no "party" when that Day comes, for those apart from God.
I do not post this as a slap to the face of anyone. Just as a reminder that there is a problem.
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All-In [38925]
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My way is the only way!!!!!
Jun 8, 2013, 9:45 AM
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1st reason why I stopped going to church.
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All-In [38925]
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some of y'all forgot...
Jun 8, 2013, 10:21 AM
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"But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also."
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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Serious question. If I heard a church or minister say "Our
Jun 8, 2013, 11:59 AM
[ in reply to My way is the only way!!!!! ] |
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way is the only way" I would stop going too.
The OP, or a minister, might respond with, "i am not saying our way is the only way. I am saying Jesus said he is the only way, and that we must understand why he said that."
Is your reaction to the "only way" idea a reaction to what Jesus said, or to the confrontational way people put it out there (lets face it, the OP was quite confrontational).
I am not trying to start a religious conversation. I am just wanting to understand what causes your post. Is it a Jesus who said "I am the only way", or a person who says, "Christianity is the only way"?
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All-In [38925]
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both. but mostly..
Jun 8, 2013, 12:21 PM
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"Christianity is the only way"... then watching the different domination bicker between each other.
Also watching "Christians'" ways of life, and judgement of others.
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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The difference in denominations is a bit silly, as crowds of
Jun 8, 2013, 1:22 PM
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folks go to one place because its formal and ornate, then to another because they have a cool band and a coffee bar in the lobby. I am not aware of bickering between them, but you might be more up on that than me.
But I am interested in what you perceive to be the more overt judgementalism. What I see is a segment of Christianity aligning itself with a political party (as opposed to an individual Christian having political views) and then becoming personal in attacks; Glen Beck, for instance, and people who speak like him.
When you hear a person say, perhaps, that abortion-as-birth-control should not be legal, does that strike you as judgemental?
If a person who has id'd himself as Christian says, "I think Obama's values are reflected in the radical people he has appointed to some advisory positions", is that seen as a judgemental statement?
I understand that you are under no obligation to answers these. Thank you for discussing this. I understand that the OP was confrontational and therefore received your reaction; my questions do not concern that. I do see a great emaotional reaction against Christians generally, and I am hoping to better understand why, with specific examples. Again, thanks.
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Lot o points [180901]
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Some folks just live in an area where it's hard to find...
Jun 8, 2013, 1:26 PM
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a Church not full of "Bible thumpers", and sing song choirs. Not that there's anything wrong with that way if that's how they choose to worship, but it turns most regular folks off.
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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Yeah, it is true that one can turn on the radio and hear
Jun 8, 2013, 1:40 PM
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a guy "a screamin' and a hollerin' and a I dont know what all." ($1 to Andy Griffith) And a non Christian would hear that and think, like me, "What the...."
But that should cause people to categorize Christians as silly. A society wouldn't hate them over that.
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Lot o points [180901]
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I think just a minority of people call Christian's silly or...
Jun 8, 2013, 2:03 PM
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hate it.
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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No, I think OSF's response speaks for the majority. If not,
Jun 8, 2013, 2:44 PM
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it soon will.
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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PS: when I said I see an emotional reaction against
Jun 8, 2013, 1:30 PM
[ in reply to The difference in denominations is a bit silly, as crowds of ] |
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Christianity, I did not mean you personallly. I meant in society generally. And I was not implying that the reaction is only emotional; I was speaking of the degree of reaction against Christianity.
I am asking what is causing it, in actual examples. Judgement
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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LOL. Judgementalism, hypocrisy and arrogance are of course
Jun 8, 2013, 1:33 PM
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offensive traits. And they are universal; no one can claim to not have them, and one who does is probably guilty of all by merely thinking such a thing. I am interested in what Christianity does, or has done, to have the society around them think so forcefully about them that way.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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The loudest voices of christianity often share the above
Jun 8, 2013, 2:09 PM
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There is a segment of Christians in this country that have a microphone. They sit in million dollar churches and claim to follow the teaching of a man that detested such things. They pass judgement from the pulpit while claiming to follow a man that spent his time hanging out with the dreges of ancient society. I got to a small Episcopal church and find none of those problem, but then again, this church doesn't have a simulcast, radio program, etc...
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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I hear you. There are some showboaters in Christianity,
Jun 8, 2013, 2:41 PM
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no question. When a person gets his self worth from measurables he will chase those measurables. Eventually that means you need the best band, the most efficient parking attendants and the most technology to broadcast your most insightful speeches.
Some guys try that and fail miserably, some succeed, like in anything else. The "best" succeed, meaning the Type A's who are gifted communicators and organizers.
And it is pretty well known that Vatican City is an enclave of excess, selfishness and treachery.
If all that is causing the perception of judgementalism, I understand. I have a response to that, but that is another conversation.
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All-In [38925]
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Re: I hear you. There are some showboaters in Christianity.
Jun 8, 2013, 3:53 PM
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like the God himself.. I can live a good life for 75 yrs, not lying, stealing, killing etc... but I go to hell for not worshiping the God, while those that sin constantly for 70 yrs, find God and go to heaven for living right for 5 yrs.
Sounds like God has more of ego than the desire for mankind to be good, kind etc..
Yes, I've been to beer tasting today.
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Lot o points [180901]
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Yep, you're thinking too much.
Jun 8, 2013, 5:21 PM
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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LOL! Well, I have a bourbon in my hand, so in vino veritas.
Jun 8, 2013, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: I hear you. There are some showboaters in Christianity. ] |
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I think the standard response is that no one has lived that 75 years of good life, or even 75 minutes.
Here's two bourbon's talking:
The idea that the OT is about law and the NT about grace is totally false. They are both about the same God who only wants us to love Him. His law was never "do this and I will love you", but, "here is what I am doing for you, so love me, and since you have no idea how, this is how. But if you choose to not, i will let you go your own way." That raises many questions, I know, but will skip those for now.
Suffice to say that those rules show we do not love him, as no one follows them. When Jesus was asked which commandment was greatest, he quoted Deuteronomy, to love God with all one's heart, that all other commands follow that.
So, this "going to hell" aspect is not about us being 'bad'. We show him every day, and have since the beginning of time, that we do not love him. We might want to, might attempt to, might say we do, but we dont.
I am picturing Fran standing in the door, keys in hand, saying, "I am sorry, David. You simple do not love me, and I can not live with that any longer". And I would die right there, because she would be right. I might point to my emotion of love for her, my desire to, the things I have done. But if she held up the standard of what love is, I fail. She knows it and I know it. Every day she doesnt leave is an undeserved day.
So the Jesus story is not a legal matter: ie, I did bad, He paid, I get in. Instead, He paid the price of the aloneness that comes to one who does not love ("spiritual death"). He does not declare us as "good", but as those who love him.
I really, really do not deserve that. So dont let those mulit million dollar churches get to you. People who have deciced to follow Jesus dont look down on anyone who has not made that same decision. None of us love God.
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All-In [38925]
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I can't help my self.. but when I read that, my brain com
Jun 8, 2013, 6:01 PM
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putes....
Love me, adore me, worship me or you are doomed.
I know... I'M GOING TO HELL
and there wont be any beer or wine there. wink
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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:) If you want there to be, no there wont be.
Jun 8, 2013, 6:18 PM
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Just kidding.
I know it sounds arrogant; love me or die. So He died instead. Cant overlook that, or what it means.
Or maybe its not that arrogant. Many a wife has left a husband because she was rejected. Is that arrogant?
Either way, He is the one who took the fall.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Here's the thing....
Jun 8, 2013, 6:06 PM
[ in reply to LOL! Well, I have a bourbon in my hand, so in vino veritas. ] |
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There are a lot of people in my life that I think are great people; people I like, even love. Some of those people do not believe like I do. Does that make them bad? Does that mean I like them or love them any less?
No.
But what is good anyway? Is there a book full of tally marks somewhere that keeps track of this? How do we define good in a world where goodness is relative?
The Bible tells us none of us can be good enough. It says compared to God our righteousness is like filthy rags. I know a lot of people who call themselves Christians and those who do not who think of themselves as good people. It's the "I don't do ------," and "I treat others well'" and "at least I don't do ------." But according to the Bible it's not enough.
So that means we're all bad and depraved beings? Not really. But goodness and badness isn't really the issue. The issue is value. And we had enough value for Jesus to die for all of us.
Does that make Christians judgmental? Maybe some are. And as another post it, there is judgment on Christians from the other side. Many people act like because we have faith, that we have not thought out or even questioned teachings in our own faith. Like we just blindly follow some tenets because someone told us to.
Believing that Christ is the only way is not passing judgment on others. Those are Christ's claims and judgment is in his hands. Ultimately, per the Bible, every man will give an account of His own life not whether they knew a bunch of religious hypocrites that turned them off. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Again, do II think anything less of those who don't believe? Not at all. Do I look down on them as bad people? No. With my background, I have no place to look down upon anybody. I am not the judge.
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All-In [38925]
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I dont have a problem with Christians, nor do I think less
Jun 8, 2013, 6:24 PM
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or more of a person that goes or doesn't go to church.
But the thread started by someone blaming the problems of the nation on the rejection of God and I can't agree with that mostly because I don't think I've ever corrupted anyone, ever. (Its like if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem and btw, Christianity is the solution.)
I'm more inline to agree with Ringknocker.
But I do agree with the initial post that this world and nation is all screwed up and royally.
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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Hey wait, there was that one guy.....
Jun 8, 2013, 6:35 PM
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....but he's happier for it, I'm sure.
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Legend [17888]
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OSF - if I may for a moment clarify something
Jun 8, 2013, 6:47 PM
[ in reply to I dont have a problem with Christians, nor do I think less ] |
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Whether or not you have ever corrupted anyone has nothing to do with the nations' rejection of God. This post originated because of the "boy scout" issue and those that think Christians are to accept everyone and everything because "we are not to judge." That is a false sentiment on the part on "non-believers."
But, you corrupting anyone has no bearing on the rejection of God. That comes when you deny Him, His Son, and what He teaches us about Himself in the Holy Bible.
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."
I take Him for His word. I proclaim it and try to live by it - though my life is riddled with holes because of the war I fight. But through it all, I do not reject God.
I do not deny Him or distort His word. I claim Him and therefore, He will not abandon me in that Day yet to come.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Legend [18003]
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Look at Catholics and communion as an example.
Jun 8, 2013, 4:56 PM
[ in reply to both. but mostly.. ] |
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You can't take communion at Catholic Mass if you aren't Catholic. If you do, there is a good chance you are going to hell.
That's messed up. (They have their own reading of the scripture to back this up, but my reading of those same scriptures leads me to a different conclusion--backing up your point OSF.)
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All-TigerNet [12098]
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It's not Christianity that's the problem
Jun 8, 2013, 10:53 AM
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It's Christian hypocrites who take Paul's word or the Old Testament proclamations over the word of Christ to justify their hate and prejudice.
It is one thing to not be a Christian and not follow Christ's word, it's another all together to claim to be His follower and ignore His word, cherry picking things that will support your view.
Many "Christians" need to go back and carefully read the Sermon on the Mount and ask themselves "Am I living, thinking, and speaking in the way Christ would have me do?"
I would encourage non Christians to start with the Sermon on the Mount and they would see a plan for a way of life that can lead to peace, harmony and love.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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there is a lot right with what you say....
Jun 8, 2013, 11:21 AM
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Jesus told the disciples that the most important commandment was to love the Lord your God with everything you have and the second, which is almost as important, love your neighbor as yourself. A lot of "Christians" miss the mark here.
Now I'm not sure about what you are saying about Paul, but love does not equal approval. A parent does not simply approve and accept everything that their child does. In fact, the Bible tells us that if we do not discipline our children then we do not love them.
I agree that Jesus wouldn't be protesting and boycotting, but he would, as he did in New Testament accounts to go and sin no more.
Now as far as having a life of peace, harmony and love, Jesus would like that, however he was mainly concerned with the life after this. He said that people would hate his followers because of him. He also promised that this life would be full of troubles. I would say that his disciples would agree.
Yes many people hate "Christians" because of those who are not perfect, but a lot of people resist Jesus' claims of being the exclusive way to eternal peace. Thankfully there are people we can blame rejecting him rather than admit it's his message we don't like.
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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Much of the annimosity toward Christianity is deserved; we
Jun 8, 2013, 11:48 AM
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bring it on ourselves. People who think they have everyone else figured out because they understand some of the bible see it as their place to go telling people how ignorant they are. Amazing, isnt it, that people dont respond well to that.
But self righteousness is a universal trait, carried as well by agonostics and atheists. A common comment from them is that they would embrace a "real Jesus minus the rest of the bible and today's Christians". The history on that is not good.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Andy Stanley just had an excellent sermon series on this...
Jun 8, 2013, 11:58 AM
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very topic. It's called "Christian" and I'm sure it's on Northpoint's website if anyone is interested.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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All-TigerNet [12098]
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I guess the difference for me is I rather spent the time
Jun 8, 2013, 1:04 PM
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reading the Bible and praying over what it means for myself than listening to someone else tell me what they think it means. Not saying I know more than a professional theologian just that it's so personal, I have to work it out for myself.
I would have made a good hermit monk back in the day.
Thanks for the civil discussion.
It's all too rare on here these days.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I think you need to do both....
Jun 8, 2013, 2:45 PM
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Just like civil discussion, having other points if view can either strengthen our position or cause us to ponder other points of view.
There's probably no one who we agree with 100%, but it helps to give examples of well-respected people explaining it.
Stanley is pretty sound. I don't think it's about telling you what to think. It's more about examining what they say and see how it jives with what you believe. If you disagree with them, then why?
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Trainer [31]
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Re: It's not Christianity that's the problem
Jun 8, 2013, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to It's not Christianity that's the problem ] |
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A huge problem within Christianity is the inability of men to accept responsibility. There is, of course, precedence for such slackerage. Adam in the garden had the instructions from God -- and was supposed to share said instructions with Eve -- but in the moment when Adam's leadership was needed most he did nothing, and she was deceived. The scriptures tell us "And the man was with her." In other words, in the moment of crisis the man did nothing. He turned passive in the face of responsibility, thus original sin was preceded by original negligence.
I have been taught (and believe to my core) that the central tenet of manhood is to reject passivity and to accept responsibility. When men fail to lead responsibly, chaos results, and amid such chaos sin entered the world. When men OR women "fling blame in order to avoid shame," chaos results. The flip side -- accepting responsibility -- results in love moving TOWARDS the beloved, as Christ did on the cross, even to the point of personal pain. In other words, he ran TO the battle and accepted personal loss so that the "team" could win. He did not run away from his responsibility but embraced it, even to the point of sweating blood and laying down his life.
There exists a massive deficit of that kind of responsibility within modern Christianity--men failing to take personal pain so that the "team" (his family, his business, his country), can win. Overlay the rejection of responsibility across failed marriages, failed businesses, and, yes, failing government, and we see a country feasting on passivity.
Go Tigers.
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CU Medallion [56005]
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The rapture is really in America's best interest because
Jun 8, 2013, 1:27 PM
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it would free up so many jobs in a time of high unemployment. It might be just the stimulus we need.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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do they have a definite date for that, yet?
Jun 8, 2013, 1:45 PM
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like a REAL one this time??
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Lot o points [180901]
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Right after Clemson wins the BCS.***
Jun 8, 2013, 1:51 PM
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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