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YOUR BALANCE
I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it
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I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it


Feb 10, 2020, 7:55 AM

I woke up this morning with the same feeling. If your best player (who's not even a superstar) is missing, you still have 12 scholarship players who you brought in to make a difference.

I wanted Brad Brownell to succeed, and when Clemson made a run to the Sweet 16 two years ago, I thought that could and would be the turning point. It turns out that will be his high water mark a midst a sea of mediocrity.

I don't even know if their is a comparison of a coach at a major school to get a decade to coach two teams to a tourney berth when the coach took over a program that had gone to three straight the previous three seasons.

I don't even have to make my point. The record and the product both speak for itself. Ten years is long enough to expect a change if the program can only make one tournament out of nine years with your players.

Good luck CBB...I just hope it's not with Clemson.

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BTW, Dawes' horrible turnovers at the end of the game should never have been an option


Feb 10, 2020, 8:06 AM

If your program can't keep those plays from a freshman off your home court during crunch time, you better have a "I send players to the league every year as an excuse."

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Re: BTW, Dawes' horrible turnovers at the end of the game should never have been an option


Feb 10, 2020, 8:21 AM

Sadly the experienced guy is no better though

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I actually liked seeing Dawes get more minutes yesterday


Feb 10, 2020, 10:50 AM [ in reply to BTW, Dawes' horrible turnovers at the end of the game should never have been an option ]

during crunch time. He brings an element to our offense that Trapp doesn't. Yes, he's young and will make mistakes, but I'm prepared to live with them for now if it means we will be better for it in the future.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Dribbling the ball off your foot twice during crunch time is far from better***


Feb 10, 2020, 11:35 AM



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We have to be prepared to live with the growing pains.


Feb 10, 2020, 2:03 PM

Freshmen make mistakes. Dawes also created several baskets yesterday with his penetration, and hit some nice shots as well. You have to take the good with the bad at this point. I'm willing to.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


It is so self-evident; the record has to mean something.


Feb 10, 2020, 8:28 AM

And it's absurd, it's like some kind of bizzaro world, to say that the record is good. A preposterous joke. Further, to suggest that it's a good record in "given the circumstances" is to have totally given up.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


I haven't seen anyone here say that our record this year is


Feb 10, 2020, 10:54 AM

good.

Nobody here is satisfied with a .500 overall record in basketball. I'm not sure why you keep thinking that nobody else has the same standard for our program as you.

I share your belief that we should be in the NCAA Tournament every year. I believe we can be a lot better. I also believe that our current coach should have another year or two to see if he is the one who can do it. I don't feel that his first 7 years here were a fair situation to evaluate, but now that he has better facilities and has been able to get the staff more like he wants it, I do think it's fair to see how things go.

This year is disappointing in that rebuilding years are never fun, but I am encouraged by our young talent and have been impressed by how hard our team plays. I am encouraged for next year - a year I expect to make the NCAAs.

You and others obviously don't have hope for the future with Brownell as our coach, and that's fine. But please stop acting like those of us who do are misguided or have low standards.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I haven't seen anyone here say that our record this year is


Feb 10, 2020, 11:09 AM

Enough. Just stop.

Your years of excuses, and defenses of the the inconsistency and mediocrity are tiring.

The lack of winning culture of men’s BB stinks and it’s time for a change.

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If you can't see that a program's results are based on


Feb 10, 2020, 12:03 PM

far more than coaching, I can't help you.

Yes, coaching matters. A lot. But so do facilities, assistant coaches, support staff, fan support, administrative support, etc. If they didn't, we would not have put millions upon millions of dollars toward our football program for the aforementioned enhancements. Instead, we would just let Dabo coach, because coaching is all that matters, right?

I prefer to give our coaches at Clemson every advantage they can get. In the case of basketball, I simply want them to maybe/sometimes be on a level playing field with most of the rest of the conference. We can't immediately change the fact that we have the worst basketball history in the ACC. We can't immediately change the fact that our fan base is historically lukewarm when it comes to basketball. But we can make sure that we have good facilities. We can make sure that our coach has the resources to assemble the staff he needs. Why on earth wouldn't you or anyone else want that for him?

In case you weren't aware, he has only had those things in place a couple of years. Since then we've had two 20-win seasons and our best recruiting class in a long time. If you're going to make the investment, it's worth giving the coach a chance to see what he can do with it.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I haven't seen anyone here say that our record this year is


Feb 10, 2020, 11:15 AM [ in reply to I haven't seen anyone here say that our record this year is ]

It's difficult because you're terribly misguided and have incredibly low standards.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


I laid out my standards and expectations above


Feb 10, 2020, 12:06 PM

which includes making the NCAA Tournament every year. That isn't an incredibly low standard.

Please reread and try again.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I laid out my standards and expectations above


Feb 10, 2020, 12:18 PM

So tournament every year is your standard but a coach who only goes 20% of the time also meets your standard. Please reconcile that contradiction. And, with a veteran squad that made the Sweet 16, he reverted right back to a first round NIT exit. That is your coach. That is what we can expect. There is 10 years of data. You pretend you can throw out the first 7 years because it suits you but that isn't how it works. He has had his shot. Even this year you constantly dodge just how bad the ACC is this year. It is probably the worst ACC season in history. It is unquestionably the worst of my lifetime. Even if it getd 4 teams in it will be the lowest percentage of teams since the introduction of at large bids. Dead last amongst the Power 5 and rated behind AAC in most mertics. We should be in contention for the title in a season like this. Instead, we in the lower third with the filth. He isn't losing to Wake Forest because of facilities or budget for assistants. He loses games like that because he does not put a consistent product on the floor. That is what we he has shown for 10 years. Whatever relative level of success we should see based on the talent we have - the actual performance will be wildly inconsistent and more likely to lose to clearly inferior teams than to reach up an score an upset. The Duke game this year is the first time in his entire career he has upset a top 5 team. He loses to a bottom feeder and an out of conference nobody virtually every season.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


He doesn't think Brownell's first 7 years count.


Feb 10, 2020, 12:35 PM

Just pretend that the mediocrity and downward trajectory over that span had almost nothing to do with the guy who was running the program.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


When we built the new facilities


Feb 10, 2020, 12:43 PM

how quickly did you expect Brownell to turn things around? It seems like you expected immediate returns, and unfortunately that isn't how it works.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I expected him to continue the success Purnell had. None


Feb 10, 2020, 1:09 PM

of those factors you mentioned kept Purnell out of the NCAA Tounrment, but BOOM, all of a sudden, in one year it was unreasonable to expect it any more. ########.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Purnell was the Paul Johnson of basketball.


Feb 10, 2020, 1:25 PM

Success at lower levels with his full court press, which worked at times at the high major level, but was dependent on continuing to recruit well enough and also hoping you played teams with poor to mediocre guard play. It's a system that works for a time, but reaches its ceiling and is very hard to sustain.

Purnell had documented recruiting misses. There is a reason he left Clemson without even giving his boss a heads up. TDP didn't even have a chance to match the offer. If Purnell were happy at Clemson and wanted to stay, he would've had that conversation with TDP. But he didn't.

We obviously won't ever know, but I believe that we were in for some bad years (starting in 2012-2013) even if Purnell had stayed. I believe he knew it too.

I know you view Purnell as an example of success, but if he were so great, why was he so horrible at DePaul?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Purnell was the Paul Johnson of basketball.


Feb 10, 2020, 2:26 PM

He left because Depaul offered him a nearly unprecendented at the time 7 year $15 million fully guaranteed contract. Everything else is made up sour grapes.

This is about Purnell any more though. When he chose to leave we were given an opportunity to upgrade our basketball situation. Instead we gotten 10 years of Brownell ball. Purnell is invoked because you constantly try to portray Brownell as inheriting a hopeless situtation. He didn’t.

And the Paul Johnson reference? I notice you don’t actually even attempt to rationalize it because its nonsence.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


You're making excuses as to why successful coaches tend to


Feb 10, 2020, 3:09 PM

leave Clemson.

I'm confident that the money was a big reason why Purnell left Clemson, but anyone who is happy in their current job and/or sees continued success in their job doesn't just leave without talking to their boss. TDP himself stated that he would've liked the opportunity to try to match DePaul's offer, but Purnell didn't give him that chance.

If Purnell thought the situation ahead of him at Clemson was so wonderful, he would've stayed. At the very least, he would've tried to make it work, but he didn't. That is very telling.

Clemson wasn't viewed as a desirable job by Purnell, nor was it viewed as such when we tried to hire his successor. If it were such a great situation at Clemson, why did we try and fail to get our top choices?!?

Our top choices weren't exactly coaches who had been consistently successful at the high major level. It was coaches like Rick Stansbury at Mississippi State, who had been to a few NCAA Tournaments but certainly not sustained success. By all accounts, Brownell was our third or fourth choice.

Again, if it was such a great job, why didn't we have coaches chomping at the bit to be Clemson's next basketball coach?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: When we built the new facilities


Feb 10, 2020, 1:15 PM [ in reply to When we built the new facilities ]

Actually you can. Considering the narrative for 2014-15 was that we are the only program that cannot sustain the early entry of an NBA player and 2015-16 was a freebie because of playing in Greenville then the recruiting should have had immediate impact. He had beautiful renderings and progress to sell and kickstart the program. However for the 2016 and 2017 classes, 3 of the 5 signees have already transferred out including an empty 2016 class.

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Re: When we built the new facilities


Feb 10, 2020, 2:53 PM

South Carolina went from a perennial mid-tier baseball program to 3 straight National Championships appearances and 2 National Titles immediately upon opening their new park. But Tanner recruited off of that new park years before it opened.

Next year we’ll need to give the freshman more time. Year after some one will transfer or be injured and we’ll need to give more time. Then our facilities will be outdated again. It’s the endless Brownell apology loop.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Here's the thing, even if we agree that in this mythical


Feb 10, 2020, 12:52 PM [ in reply to He doesn't think Brownell's first 7 years count. ]

land of unicorns and rainbows where the first 7 years of a coach's tenure doesn't count, let's look at the 3 years that do count:

Year 1 - Sweet 16, incredible year!!!

Year 2 - Team dramatically underachieves and loses in the 2nd round of the NIT

Year 3 - As of right now we are below .500 in what is a very bad year for the ACC. We have 7 games left with 4 of those being on the road (we are 1-6 in true road games this year) and of the 3 home games 2 of them are against top 10 teams.

So in the 3 years that count we have gotten worse every year.

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Is that the same land of unicorns and fairytales where


Feb 10, 2020, 12:58 PM

our basketball history doesn't matter, administrative support doesn't matter, facilities don't matter, and our fans are the best ever? In that land, all we need is a smooth-talking coach who is a basketball expert, who recruits well, who shows the proper level of emotion on the sidelines, who also loves Clemson and wants to stay?

In that magical land, this coach is easy to find. Clemson's AD just needs to care more about basketball and that coach, and perhaps several others, will come knocking down the door for an opportunity to coach at Clemson - for a fraction of the price we are paying Brownell!

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Clearly the only thing that matters to you is the ability to make excuses.

1

Feb 10, 2020, 1:10 PM

The one about the fans not being good enough is particularly impressive.

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So since you don't think fan support matters


Feb 10, 2020, 1:26 PM

let's stop allowing any fans in the upper deck in Death Valley for football games. That won't have any impact on recruiting or our home field advantage, right?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Sorry- that comparison doesn’t really make sense.

1

Feb 10, 2020, 1:33 PM

Also- let me ask you this....

You seem to be a little disturbed by the success in football.
Do you not think the unbelievable success in football, particularly in the last 5 years, should have a positive impact on the basketball program???
It is now cool for world class athletes to come to Clemson, regardless of sport. The vision should be there for recruits that the basketball program can build their own little version of what football is experiencing.
Why has Brad not been able to capitalize on this?

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Why doesn't that comparison make sense?


Feb 10, 2020, 2:00 PM

Many of the same people who minimize the importance of facilities and fan support in basketball are the same ones who want us to have the best facilities in college football and brag about how we have such a great home field advantage due to our crowd.

I am thrilled about our football success, but I don't think it has much to do with our basketball program. If anything, our football success makes it harder for basketball, because it accentuates the fact that Clemson is a football school. Some people will reason that because Clemson is a football school, that it isn't a basketball school. Basketball players don't want to go to a school where basketball is minimized, and I think that's a big part of the uphill climb basketball at Clemson has always had to face.

I don't see why you view our football success as something Brad should be capitalizing on, but isn't. Many basketball recruiting weekends occur during football home games, and recruits go to the football game. Aside from that, I don't know what else you think our staff should be doing to "capitalize" on football's success.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I’m saying some success and excitement is expected. I have no idea what they are doing?

1

Feb 10, 2020, 2:07 PM

The bottom line is this basketball program has no pulse and no energy at all. That needs to come from within the program. That’s not the fans’ fault.

You can cite statistics and even W-L records all you want, and claim that the current staff is more successful than previous staffs.

However, there is one key thing you are not recognizing. When Barnes was here, there was a pulse and it was exciting to go see his teams play. When Purnell was here... same thing.

Not now.

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I agree, that is an issue and needs to be addressed.


Feb 10, 2020, 3:13 PM

If Brownell is fired, I believe it will partly be because of dwindling fan interest. I think we would see more fans if we won more games, but I also think that it's harder to get fans to come to games these days. I doubt routine sellouts will ever happen in Clemson, given the times of games, additional distractions we didn't have two decades ago, and general lack of fan interest in basketball in Clemson, SC.

I have wondered if we would fare better if we played a lot of our games in Greenville.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Florida had the same trouble a few years back...


Feb 10, 2020, 2:10 PM [ in reply to Why doesn't that comparison make sense? ]



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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Florida is actually a great example, before Billy Donovan


Feb 10, 2020, 2:25 PM

was hired, they had only made the NCAA tournament 5 times in their program's history, had never won their conference tournament and won their conference regular season once.

In 19 seasons at Florida Donovan made the NCAA Tournament 14 times, the NIT 3 times and failed to make a post-season tournament twice (his first year and his last year).

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Thank you. I was actually thinking about Florida earlier, too.

1

Feb 10, 2020, 2:33 PM

How in the world could a football school like Florida win the national championship in football AND basketball??? In the SAME YEAR?!?!?!? Amazing.

And we’re not even looking for basketball national championships here.

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Re: Sorry- that comparison doesn’t really make sense.


Feb 10, 2020, 2:45 PM [ in reply to Sorry- that comparison doesn’t really make sense. ]

All his responses are a mix of gaslighting and straw man arguments. He almost never addresses the actual specific topic and constantly shifts goal posts. I’m increasingly convinced he’s a paid social media shill because it makes no sense to post as much as he does on this one issue when he really has nothing to actually say. For his hundreds of posts on the topic he’s never offered a single tangible reason we should have faith in Brownell. When pushed on that point he just trashes our facilities, admin, and fan base.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


That isn't true.


Feb 10, 2020, 3:25 PM

I've offered plenty of support for my point of view. You just don't want to hear it, because you dismiss everything as an excuse that doesn't align with your preconceived notions.

Here are some reasons I have faith in Brownell:

-In 17 seasons as a head coach, he has only had 1 losing season.
-He has taken each of the three schools he's coached to the NCAA Tournament.
-He has won at least 20 games 10 different times.
-He gave us one of our best seasons in program history.
-He is recruiting better these last two cycles.
-He runs a clean program, graduates his players, etc.
-He is well respected in coaching circles.

It is obvious that he maximizes the skill sets of his players. I think he makes adjustments well. He regular has our team competing against more talented teams. His issue has always been recruiting, and I am encouraged by the improvement we have seen in recruiting lately. I want to see what he can do with that talent.

It's amusing that you think I have nothing to say, when I am the one who is here regularly posting whether we win or lose. You are the one who tends to show up only when we lose or when you can say something negative.

Radakovich and Clements obviously believe in Brad. Have you thought that perhaps they know and see things you don't, or do you dismiss their belief in Brad as well? Let me guess - you think you know more than they do, and care more about basketball than they do. Right?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Still didn’t answer how a “football school” can win

1

Feb 10, 2020, 3:41 PM

the national championship in football and basketball in the same year.

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Link to where I said it wasn't possible?!?


Feb 10, 2020, 8:29 PM

I do believe that both football and basketball can be successful, but let's be honest - it's very hard to do and rarely happens.

I think it's possible at Clemson, but it will require a shift in focus to some degree. We can't equate basketball support with harming football. The two must co-exist as high priorities, as opposed to basketball being the afterthought it's been for most of Clemson's existence. Are most Clemson fans in support of that? I am, but I have my doubts that most Clemson fans are.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I have explained my rationale many times.


Feb 10, 2020, 12:37 PM [ in reply to Re: I laid out my standards and expectations above ]

Not making the NCAA Tournament more over the past 10 years is a result of several factors, including our coaches, our players, our administration, and our fans.

Regardless of who our coach is, I believe that it's only fair to judge him knowing that we gave him the resources and support he deserves. So yes, I can look more closely at the last 2-3 years than I do the first 7, because I look at things in context.

You clearly look at things in your own context. You can't accept the fact that Brad is our all-time winningest coach, and has the best ACC winning percentage in program history. Instead, you minimize the strength of the ACC now. The reason you do that is because you don't like Brownell and want to portray his tenure in the most negative light possible.

It must be a miserable existence.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


No, it's not because of our players, I can't believe you of


Feb 10, 2020, 12:42 PM

all people would suggest that. Our players are picked to play at Clemson, they commit to their school and they dedicate their college lives to the program. Our players are not at fault.

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


You're joking, right?


Feb 10, 2020, 12:48 PM

Players play a role in the outcome of a game, whether we win or lose.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


No, I'm not joking because it all goes back to the


Feb 10, 2020, 1:01 PM

head coach. The players on the court are recruited by the coach. The players execute the coach's game plan. If they do not perform it falls back to recruiting and coaching.

UNC is a mess this year and Roy Williams called his team the least-gifted team he's coached at UNC. Whose fault is that, the players or the coach that recruited them?

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


The coach is ultimately responsible for the outcome.


Feb 10, 2020, 1:06 PM

Where we are as a basketball program is due to a combination of factors, including the players. That should be obvious, as basketball is a team sport and there are many layers to the team (administration, coaches, players, etc.).

Win as a team, lose as a team.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


For the record, I like Brownell a lot. I've always been a


Feb 10, 2020, 1:15 PM [ in reply to I have explained my rationale many times. ]

fan. I've always thought he was a great guy, a guy who "got" Clemson. I wanted desperately for him to succeed. For his sake, I still do. I hope I'm wrong, but if I'm honest, There is no reason to think he will, and he is inextricably tied to his lack of success here, whether it's all his fault or not, he has to own it.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


He's definitely nearing "do or die" time here.


Feb 10, 2020, 1:29 PM

That's why I say that next year is a huge year for him. Assuming that we don't have significant unexpected departures/injuries next year, it's NCAA Tournament or bust in my opinion.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Let's be clear here...


Feb 10, 2020, 1:55 PM

Judge Keller® are you saying that it is your opinion that if he does not make the NCAA Tournament next year, that you think it should be time to move on?

Or are you saying that if he doesn't make the tournament next year that he will get fired even though you do not think he should be?

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Barring a catastrophic year in terms of injuries and/or


Feb 10, 2020, 3:28 PM

departures, Brad should be expected to make the NCAA Tournament next year. If he doesn't, a change will have to be made. I suspect our president and AD will feel the same way.

Obviously there can be extenuating circumstances, but at this point that's how I see it.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Good grief, I'm not talking about this year so much as


Feb 10, 2020, 12:31 PM [ in reply to I haven't seen anyone here say that our record this year is ]

I am Brownell's overall record in 10 years at Clemson. Only one NCAA appearance (after the first year with Purnell's NCAA tourney players) in 9 years. Consistently mid-pack in conference with an average finish of 7th; only twice have we finished higher than 6th, the highest being 3rd. That's all very mediocre at best. Trying to spin that any other way is laughable. If you expect something different after such a lengthy, consistent track record, then yes, you are either delusional, or you have very low standards. The argument you are making would never allow any coach to be fired. Purnell had us in the NCAA 3 years straight, then 1 more year with his players under Brownell, then BAM! It's all of a sudden unfair to expect us to win? Saying those first 7 years don't count is a joke, give me a break. To suggest that Brownell hasn't had a fair shot is knee-slapping hilarious.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Let me see if I understand.


Feb 10, 2020, 1:15 PM

You are disappointed in Brad's performance, even though it is far above our historical average in basketball, and you feel that we should strive for better. You feel that Brad has been given more than enough time to get us where you think we need to go.

I'm guessing that you not only want to find a coach who meets your expectations, but who is also happy at Clemson. A coach who will earn raises and stay for the long term.

If so, how do you propose we find that coach? Clemson has a problem when it comes to coaches viewing our basketball head coaching job as a good job. That prevents us from hiring some coaches, and it prevents us from retaining others. Why do you think that is? How do you propose we change it?

Brad loving Clemson and wanting to be here holds a lot of weight with me. I certainly don't believe in keeping a coach who isn't performing just for that reason, but it is important. I have no interest getting a new coach who views this as a stepping stone job.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Let me see if I understand.


Feb 10, 2020, 2:14 PM

You are disappointed in Brad's performance, even though it is far above our historical average in basketball, and you feel that we should strive for better. You feel that Brad has been given more than enough time to get us where you think we need to go.

Yep. And can't use historical average, which has been bad, to set the bar. Expectations must be higher or we're likely doomed to eternal mediocrity.

If so, how do you propose we find that coach? Clemson has a problem when it comes to coaches viewing our basketball head coaching job as a good job. That prevents us from hiring some coaches, and it prevents us from retaining others. Why do you think that is? How do you propose we change it?

I don't know enough about the inner workings of the schools finances or politics to answer that very well. What I do know is that Clemson is a great place to go to school and live. It is a special, unique place, and it would indeed be largely about fit. That would have to be a big part of the selection process and subsequent sales pitch. As for the money, I don't know what our realistic limitations are, but I think we should be finacially "all in" with our basketball program. I see all of that is doable, else it's a totally lost cause amd I'm not ready to believe that.

Brad loving Clemson and wanting to be here holds a lot of weight with me. I certainly don't believe in keeping a coach who isn't performing just for that reason, but it is important. I have no interest getting a new coach who views this as a stepping stone job.


Agreed, and I think it can be done.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Florida found Donavan and had unprecedented success


Feb 10, 2020, 8:21 PM

compared to the program's history. Same for Barnes and Texas. And let's go back a ways: McGuire at USuC, Phelps at ND, Tubbs at OU, Sanderson at Bama, Cremins at GT, Holland now Bennett at UVa, Lefty at Maryland, Brown at LSU. Even at basketball schools. Georgetown was nothing before John Thompson, UConn before Calhoun, UNLV before Tark.

Buzz turned VT around in 3 years. Look at what's happened at Texas Tech, in Lubbock! Baylor was nothing before Drew.

It's happened in many places. But of course, is impossible here.

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No one said it's impossible here, but it's foolish to keep


Feb 10, 2020, 8:34 PM

hoping we somehow luck our way into basketball success. It's like a poor person relying on the lottery to get rich. It could happen, but it's not likely. There are better ways to make money.

Thus, it's worth looking at why we are historically so bad, why our successful seasons are so few and far between, and why all but one coach who has been successful at Clemson has left for what they perceived was a better job elsewhere.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it


Feb 10, 2020, 9:34 AM

Saying we were missing 1 out of 12 or 13 seems like it's not much, but you can look at it another way that is much more telling.

We were missing 20% of our starters. Not only that but it was our best 20%

If we are missing 20% of our starters in a football game that would be 5 players. Let's say ETN, Higgins, Skalski, Tyler Davis, and Muse from last season's team. Not all the best players but a pretty strong core.

If we are missing 5 starters for a game, we will not beat Ohio St, Bama, LSU, or a few others that are evenly matched in talent with our football team.

That is what happened to the basketball team last night. We played a game where we would have been pretty evenly matched at full strength, but we were missing 20% of our starters.

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Evenly matched with a sub .500 ACC basketball team should never be the goal


Feb 10, 2020, 9:58 AM

Also, I'll hasten to point out the fact that Hemenway and Jemison would have never seen those minutes had Simms been healthy.

Your argument falls flat when you subtract those minutes and replace them with Simms. Yes, Simms is Clemson's best player. Yes, Simms makes Clemson a better team. Though, Simms has been a part of this entire season, and if you're satisfied with it when he does play, I'll quote Dabo, and say, "dream big!"

The ACC is way down this year, and I won't pretend that middle of the pack is acceptable. I'd like to see improvement in the 10th year at the very least.

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Re: Evenly matched with a sub .500 ACC basketball team should never be the goal


Feb 10, 2020, 10:03 AM

I didn't say being an even match for a .500 team was the goal, but it's where we are right now.

I'm not supporting Brownell or bashing him, but you saying that missing Simms is not a good enough reason to lose is just not true.

I'm not sure what replacing minutes has to do with what I said. Obviously we didn't play with just 4 so somebody got the minutes.

It would have been an excellent coaching job to win without Simms.

Instead we got what should be expected last night with our best player out.

I think some people would be less upset if we had lost by 15 and the Simms loss was more obvious.

The fact that it was close makes people think his absence wasn't a big deal.

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It was only close b/c Hemenway and Jemison had their best performance in a Clemson uniform


Feb 10, 2020, 10:12 AM

Again, they wouldn't be playing had Simms been healthy.

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That SHOULD mean that people acknowledge Brownell for


Feb 10, 2020, 11:54 AM

coaching up players and putting them in a position to win despite our team being undermanned. However, I don't expect everyone here to look at it that way. It requires far less mental energy to just focus on what goes wrong and declare that our coach stinks and our players stink.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it


Feb 10, 2020, 10:18 AM [ in reply to Re: I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it ]

That is a not a very good assessment when you take in consideration that 11 players are covering 47,700 square ft of playing surface in FB, and 5 players covering only 4,700 square ft of playing surface BBall. That's like comparing Grapefruit to Grapes!!! ;)

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Re: I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it


Feb 10, 2020, 9:36 AM

Please don't think I'm making any excuses for Brad bc I have suffered these past 10 just like the rest of Tiger nation. But this has been his worst season of all 10 with injuries and player/players being sick or not at the top of their game!!! I'll vote for giving Brad one more. Get it/put it all together or shown the door, front, back, or a side door, it won't matter, bc IMO time will have run out!!!

Message was edited by: allinallorangeallthetime52®


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He's going to get one more year even if they lose out.


Feb 10, 2020, 9:39 AM

And at this point, whatever I guess. But he will be the Clemson basketball coach next year win, lose or draw.

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GO TIGERS!!


why speculate


Feb 10, 2020, 10:01 AM

On the future of coach Brownell? Not a single one of you has ANY control of this decision. What are you going to do? Quit attending the games? Be a fan or get out!

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Guess you've forgotten Hatfield, West and Bowden***


Feb 10, 2020, 8:24 PM



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I will then believe the narrative. Clemson will truly not care about basketball***


Feb 10, 2020, 10:02 AM [ in reply to He's going to get one more year even if they lose out. ]



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If CBB is the coach next year, I'll be supporting any and all Clemson sports except MBB***


Feb 10, 2020, 10:05 AM [ in reply to Re: I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it ]



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Re: If CBB is the coach next year, I'll be supporting any and all Clemson sports except MBB***


Feb 10, 2020, 10:28 AM

So what you are saying is that if the AD doesn't do what you want him to do, then you won't support Clemson BB team anymore. That says that you're a fan of winning championships, if not, you're not a fan at all!!!

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Tell me a sport where we didn't let someone go for less?***


Feb 10, 2020, 10:37 AM



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Looks like we have an internet tough guy here.


Feb 10, 2020, 12:08 PM [ in reply to If CBB is the coach next year, I'll be supporting any and all Clemson sports except MBB*** ]



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: If CBB is the coach next year, I'll be supporting any and all Clemson sports except MBB***


Feb 10, 2020, 12:44 PM [ in reply to If CBB is the coach next year, I'll be supporting any and all Clemson sports except MBB*** ]

Sorry, i know you're a good Tiger and don't say that as flippantly as some, but if that's the way you want it.

Fine.

Your choice.

You're not bigger than the program.

So, Will you also promise to get off the basketball bored during the time period you're not willing to work at being a MBB fan?

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Re: If CBB is the coach next year, I'll be supporting any and all Clemson sports except MBB***


Feb 10, 2020, 12:56 PM [ in reply to If CBB is the coach next year, I'll be supporting any and all Clemson sports except MBB*** ]

User Logo
tigerfanatic12
Orange Blooded [2175]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1971
Joined: 2/22/04
If CBB is the coach next year, I'll be supporting any and all Clemson sports except MBB***
Posted: Feb 10, 2020 10:05 AM


omg lets just shut down the program. tigerfanatic12 is not all in. how will the program survive.

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Re: I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it


Feb 10, 2020, 11:08 AM

the ONLY coach to beat UNC in Chapel Hill and follow it up by beating #3 Duke will be given extra grace this season and beyond-regardless of how the season ends this year. Coach will be back next year.

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Well, I see the T. Bowden crowd are spouting


Feb 10, 2020, 11:25 AM

The same old chit in defending coach BB.

If that crowd had their way, TB would still be here and we would still be Clemsoning with no ACC championships, let alone 2 natties.

Yeah, give Brownell 10 more yrs. Cause he is going to finally get it together.

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That is a ridiculous comparison and you know it.


Feb 10, 2020, 12:12 PM

Bowden coached a proud football program with a history of a national championship, multiple ACC championships, multiple bowl wins, etc. He also had an administration and fan base that is football crazy.

That is not even comparable to Brownell, who coaches a program with no ACC championships and very few NCAA Tournament appearances, with a lukewarm fan base and an administration that his historically unwilling to support basketball with any reasonable consistency.

No one here has suggested giving Brownell 10 more years. Heck, I haven't even seen anyone suggest giving him beyond next year.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: That is a ridiculous comparison and you know it.


Feb 10, 2020, 12:22 PM

The comparison is more apt than you admit. Bowden could get the guys to show up for big games and usually score a major upset once a season. He'd also crap the bed at least once a year to Wake or Duke. When the conference/FSU was down and we should have been able to grab a title he'd fall flat on his face and let Boston College or Wake Forest take it. Losing games you shouldn't is not the hallmark of a good coach and a reason why Bowden has never been employed again. Brownell does it multiple times almost every year and you rally to his cause nonetheless.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


I'd love to see some evidence that we are as inconsistent


Feb 10, 2020, 12:51 PM

as you and others claim. I don't think it exists.

College basketball is very different from college football - more games, more quality teams, etc. Virtually every basketball team is going to have ups and downs throughout the year. The idea that we are "so inconsistent" is really just par for the course in college basketball.

Look at how many different #1 teams we've had this year in college basketball, compared to college football. Significantly more for basketball, because it's nearly impossible to beat everyone you're supposed to and never lose to an inferior team.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I recently saw someone suggest CBB should have more time...


Feb 10, 2020, 12:31 PM [ in reply to That is a ridiculous comparison and you know it. ]

beyond next year.

“... I also believe that our current coach should have another year or two to see if he is the one who can do it.”

https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/I-havent-seen-anyone-here-say-that-our-record-this-year-is-26864969#26864969

In your defense, that was nearly 2.25 hours ago.




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: I recently saw someone suggest CBB should have more time...


Feb 10, 2020, 1:37 PM



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Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Re: Well, I see the T. Bowden crowd are spouting


Feb 10, 2020, 12:53 PM [ in reply to Well, I see the T. Bowden crowd are spouting ]

I don't remember TB leaving because he lost the support of Tnet.

Nor will BB.

And you apparently like to pretend that TDP was taking your advice when he "upgraded" from TB to Dabo.

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Re: I stayed away from the board last night b/c I wanted to sleep on it


Feb 10, 2020, 2:21 PM

I caught the ND game right before 1/2 time with the game knotted... The second half was painful to watch...If Brad had The Harlem Globetrotters then 3 pointers would be fine...Our guys left lanes open that even i could have gone inside(at 70 years). I got irritated and changed the channel...

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