|
Replies: 19
| visibility 696
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Here's an example of a compromise that should be
Dec 23, 2020, 8:40 AM
|
|
easy and quick. the stimulus checks are set for $600. trump (and Pelosi) want $2000. So how about $1200 like was in the first stimulus package.
This money will help people who are in dire straits, and help save businesses and jobs. it will also make more shallow the hole from which we have to start crawling in 2021. In the long run (when our recovery is more robust) it will be a good investment - in the working American people.
|
|
|
|
 |
Orange Blooded [4679]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6557
Joined: 4/11/20
|
Re: Here's an example of a compromise that should be
Dec 23, 2020, 8:44 AM
|
|
I like your idea but that would mean we can’t send money to Pakistan for gender studies. I’m not sure how we can live with ourselves if we do that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93609]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95384
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Money,,,
Dec 23, 2020, 8:49 AM
|
|
is not going to help. How much does it cost to stand nekkid in front of a mirror?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93609]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95384
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Would you be satisfied with $1200 if...
Dec 23, 2020, 8:46 AM
|
|
all businesses were allowed to open and employ people again? That is the only ladder to climb out of this hole. Every day small businesses are closed the hole gets deeper and deeper. Teach a man to fish...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: Would you be satisfied with $1200 if...
Dec 23, 2020, 10:40 AM
|
|
1988,
That might work except for the fact that seems to be missing from your analysis. Approximately 2700 Americans are dying of Covid every day. Higher than at any time during this pandemic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64813
Joined: 7/13/02
|
When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole?
Dec 23, 2020, 8:51 AM
|
|
Asking for a friend.......
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33600
Joined: 9/13/99
|
NOT during a crisis.
Dec 23, 2020, 8:56 AM
|
|
I recommend tax increases and spending cuts during the following years:
1993-2000
2005-2008
2015-2019
But during 9/11, economic collapses, and worldwide plagues, I'm ok with deficit spending.
Maybe we can start cutting into the debt by 2022.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13017]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14036
Joined: 11/2/15
|
Re: NOT during a crisis.
Dec 23, 2020, 9:18 AM
|
|
Yea, doubling corporate tax rates do wonders for the economy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33600
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: NOT during a crisis.
Dec 23, 2020, 9:26 AM
|
|
And that's exactly the point. Increasing corporate tax rate, or other taxes, is a drag on the economy. So is reducing government spending. Both of those result in a reduction of GDP and a market contraction. Keeping a strong economy is an important economic concern.
But a rising debt is also an important economic concern.
So we have to balance those two. My suggestion is to address the debt only when the economy is sufficiently strong to handle it well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: NOT during a crisis.
Dec 23, 2020, 10:26 AM
|
|
sppon,
I agree, but politicians see extra money in the coffers (taxing on rising GDP) and they want to buy themselves re-election by spending it. Paying down the debt is NOT very sexy and does NOT get one a lot of votes.
How do we get them to be reasonable when times are good ??
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12566]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6301
Joined: 12/24/15
|
Re: When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole?
Dec 23, 2020, 9:29 AM
[ in reply to When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole? ] |
|
Now is probably not the time to have a Come to Jesus moment on fiscal responsibility, but unless we stop kicking the proverbial can down the road soon, we are headed to disaster. A 5K+ page bill on any matter is a sham though. How much pork has to be in this bill. It can't even be read in time to make a reasoned vote. I guess "we'll just have to pass it to find out what's in it" is still in vogue? Can we not do better than this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole?
Dec 23, 2020, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole? ] |
|
Tiggity,
I have spoken many times about looking at our debt as a % of GDP. If our GDP goes up next year because we have stimulated it now, ie if more businesses and jobs survive because of this $$, then we will have helped reduce debt as a % of GDP.
Further, if the economy continues to grow more robustly because of these saved businesses and jobs, than we will continue to reduce debt as a % of GDP.
So many of you guys look at this money as expenditures only, but macreconomists look at them as investments in our future. And investments are measured in a cost/benefits analysis. Any expenditure that creates more benefits than costs is worthwhile. but you guys keep looking at the costs only, without consideration of the long run benefits.
We cannot ignore the debt. It is real and it has costs. But when you look at it as a % of GDP there are two ways to reduce that: spend less or increase GDP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155652]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65723
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Odd....
Dec 23, 2020, 10:22 AM
|
|
You spend three paragraphs saying why we should ignore the debt in lieu of GDP, and then say “we cannot ignore the debt”.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: Odd....
Dec 23, 2020, 10:36 AM
|
|
O
I never said that we should ignore the debt. But the absolute dollar figure is misleading (and overwhelming). Debt is best considered as a % of GDP.
Please allow me a microeconomic analogy for this macroeconomic situation. It won't be perfect but it may serve our purposes here.
If my business is $10m in debt that sounds awful. But if my company is generating $100M is sales every year, that puts the debt into its proper perspective.
We still need to pay it down. The interest and other costs of servicing that debt are costs to my company. But we don't have to set our hair on fire about it. as long as we can make the payments on time, my business is on solid ground.
I may even borrow more money - if the costs of borrowing it are lower than the benefits that I expect from investing that money in expanding my business.
Right now the costs of borrowing money are extremely low. I am suggesting that the benefits of investing in our fragile economy are greater than those costs of borrowing. IOW that stimulating the economy more now will raise GDP more (in the long-run) than it will cost to borrow the money now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155652]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65723
Joined: 5/6/13
|
That’s a misleading analogy
Dec 23, 2020, 10:46 AM
|
|
Our debt to GDP has exceeded 100% for almost a decade, and is on track to jump over 20-25 percentage points in a single year. A healthy SMB debt to income ratio is 30 percent or less.
So to use your analogy accurately, if your business generates $100M in sales annually, and you owe $110M in debt, a number that is growing annually and increasing in proportion to your sales, how much longer do you think your company will be a good credit risk?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: That’s a misleading analogy
Dec 23, 2020, 6:14 PM
|
|
O,
We will be a good credit risk as long as we keep paying the bills on time. And if we keep investing the money (taxes) wisely and growing our business (GDP) we should be able to keep on paying the bills.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [119586]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 54420
Joined: 6/24/09
|
Re: When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole?
Dec 23, 2020, 10:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole? ] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole?
Dec 23, 2020, 10:37 AM
|
|
Aw, I knew where you were the whole time, bengal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [321]
TigerPulse: 48%
Posts: 853
Joined: 1/8/09
|
Re: When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole?
Dec 24, 2020, 10:43 PM
[ in reply to When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole? ] |
|
Where was the national debt concerns of the GOP when TheRump's 2017 taxcut for the rich ignored the huge increase in deficit spending that the taxcut caused? (It was estimated that TheRumps would save $14B over 10 years.
For the GOP, there's always money to give a taxcut to the rich, but there's no money to help the poor. (Like the pro-life crowd is against abortion, but refuses to fund programs for single mothers. They're only pro-life until the baby is born.)
Meanwhlile, the 15 US centi-billionaires (people worth more than $100B) can't give away money fast enough and their fortunes are rapidly increasing, today, in the pandemic, as they give away fortunes. See what's wrong with this picture -- as workers are forced out of their homes and apartments?
Meanwhile, most of the current 655 billionaires in the US are throwing money at the GOP, to get new and bigger taxcuts.
In January, Biden will start to reduce these taxcuts that funded these richmen's dreams.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [321]
TigerPulse: 48%
Posts: 853
Joined: 1/8/09
|
Re: When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole?
Dec 24, 2020, 10:43 PM
[ in reply to When do we start crawling out of the $28,000,000,000,000 hole? ] |
|
Where was the national debt concerns of the GOP when TheRump's 2017 taxcut for the rich ignored the huge increase in deficit spending that the taxcut caused? (It was estimated that TheRumps would save $14B over 10 years.
For the GOP, there's always money to give a taxcut to the rich, but there's no money to help the poor. (Like the pro-life crowd is against abortion, but refuses to fund programs for single mothers. They're only pro-life until the baby is born.)
Meanwhlile, the 15 US centi-billionaires (people worth more than $100B) can't give away money fast enough and their fortunes are rapidly increasing, today, in the pandemic, as they give away fortunes. See what's wrong with this picture -- as workers are forced out of their homes and apartments?
Meanwhile, most of the current 655 billionaires in the US are throwing money at the GOP, to get new and bigger taxcuts.
In January, Biden will start to reduce these taxcuts that funded these richmen's dreams.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 19
| visibility 696
|
|
|
50
