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CU Medallion [65037]
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Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 9:17 AM
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We as fans, and journalists as well, like to do comparisons between current coaching records and past coaching records. Dabo vs Danny immediately comes to mind for us Clemson fans. You can do a lot of conjecture about different eras, but one thing is indisputable. When seasons end, and players move on, the team has to be rebuilt each time for the next season. So, current coaches have a little bit of an advantage from that standpoint.
Case in point, last years Clemson team. How many games would that group have won, if they could stay together just as they were? They in fact did win 3 more than were possible in one season in Danny's era.
I guess the point I am trying to muddle toward, is that Danny's 94 wins were at least 1/12 harder to come by than Dabo's 94 wins at the time, since he coached in an era with only an 11 game regular season. And, only one postseason game max following the season also made each cumulative victory take longer. That doesn't mean I think Danny was a better or worse coach than Dabo, but he, and every coach of that era was certainly having to rebuild teams more often. Your thoughts?
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CU Guru [1620]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 9:23 AM
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Danny was a legend but what do you mean he had to “rebuild teams more often “? If anything the attrition wouldn’t have been as severe for many of his years bc they didn’t have scholarships limits
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All-Pro [686]
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You are incorrect in your statement
Sep 19, 2019, 9:38 AM
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that Danny did not have scholarship limits. Scholarship limits were in effect even in the late 1960s. There were more restrictions in the ACC than in some other conferences. Pittsburg had no limits when Johnny Majors won a Natty there. Howard use to complain that the Knucklehead league (the SEC) had a 45 limit per year while the ACC had a 35 limit. Nationwide limits were not in effect. Thus, over a 4-5 year timeframe SEC schools had many more scholarship athletes than ACC teams. When I first came to Alabama in the late 1960s, Alabama and Auburn each beat us four years in a row. I caught a lot of flack from their fans.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 10:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: Give past coaches their due. ] |
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Didn't have a transfer portal in the 1980s either. Most players stuck it out for all four years.
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All-In [29036]
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The 12th game is a valid point
Sep 19, 2019, 9:40 AM
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But I'd argue that the rebuilding requirement actually is tougher in our current climate. Transfers are much more common, and going pro after 3 years also seems (and I don't have the stats to back it up, it's just perception) to be much more common over the past 10 years than before.
As for the potential second post-season game, I don't much think that comes into play much because it's only 2 teams each year, and in those years it means they had excellent championship worthy seasons.
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CU Medallion [65037]
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Re: The 12th game is a valid point
Sep 19, 2019, 11:02 AM
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Its actually a 3rd postseason game. There were no conference championship games back then either. SEC was first conference to have one, in 1992, right after Danny's time at Clemson ended.
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All-In [29036]
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That is true
Sep 19, 2019, 11:37 AM
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Missed that one
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 9:47 AM
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Dabo is # 1 . No contest
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 10:20 AM
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I agree. His teams are consistently brilliant.
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CU Medallion [65037]
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The intent of this post never was to compare Danny to Dabo
Sep 19, 2019, 11:14 AM
[ in reply to Re: Give past coaches their due. ] |
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as one being greater than the other. I just used them as examples since they are both well known to us. I personally think Dabo is by far the better overall coach and motivator. The point was that ANY modern coach has a chance to accumulate victories at a faster clip due to the lengthened regular season, and more potential games in the post season per year. This defacto put coaches back in that era at a disadvantage. (Reminder: Conference championship games did not exist before 1992. ACC Conference Championship game did not exist before 2008.)
Now, you could argue that this was partially offset by scholarship limits being 95 during Danny's time at Clemson. It all makes for lively discussion.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 10:38 AM
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Winning is winning.
Dabo's winning % is higher than Danny's.
The only thing about winning 96 games, it would take more seasons to get to that point but since each W is tough in its own right, then it really does not matter if it was 12 game seasons or 15 game seasons. Winning a game is just as hard... winning X games per season might be faster in fewer season.
That being said, Danny did not have a ACC challenger or CFP gauntlet that nearly guarantees a better opponent. Would he have been successful? Maybe... Danny did well OOC but what would the CFP look like beating two teams. I just don't think Danny would have been invited in 87/88. Lets be honest, Dabo has had at least 4 seasons as good or better than Danny's second best season.
My final point is this - ACC titles. Both Dabo and Danny have 5. Danny did that in 11 full seasons (granted, he was disqualified for one of those). Thus, Dabo has a chance to win one more title in his 11 years than Danny if he wins this year.
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All-In [38422]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 11:11 AM
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I respect all former Clemson coaches while reserving the right as a longtime fan to enjoy this era as the greatest of all time ... but also with the certainty of knowing that the best ...as Dabo has stated ... is yet to come !
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110%er [5053]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 11:13 AM
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I agree with your rebuilding remark. It seems that some did not quite understand your point. Under Ford, the team would play 11-12 games and rebuild. Under Dabo, the team plays 13-15 games, then rebuilds. So those possible three games extra each year, over a five year period, would mean 15 more games without rebuilding for the next season. You essentially get a whole new season every five years. In other words, Danny would have to coach 6 years to have the possibility of winning the same number of games as Dabo now in 5 years, while he would have one more rebuilding year to endure. Just thought a clarification may help the point.
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110%er [8221]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 11:21 AM
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Dabo's impact on all things Clemson is far greater than Danny's was. Culture, graduation rate, image projected for the University, financial impact across the university is also incomparable. And finally, its nice to not have an impending fear of ncaa investigations. Danny was great in one dimension. Dabo is great in all of them.
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CU Guru [1149]
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You do better by comparing coaches of a given era to
Sep 19, 2019, 11:50 AM
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their coaching counterparts of the same era. Danny Ford was every bit as good or better than pretty much any other coach of the same time period. He beat all of the greats that he faced, including Tom Osborne, Vince Dooley, Bobby Bowden, Joe Paterno, Barry Switzer, and Bobby Ross (both @ Maryland and at GT). There's probably more if I think about it longer. Nobody, and I mean nobody, wanted to face Clemson in the 1980s because they knew it was going to be a long, brutally physical day.
Dabo has done the same thing. Is the culture better under Dabo? Yes, but it's a different time and society. Academic requirements are more stringent now. And despite all that, Ford was loved by pretty much everyone aside from Max Lennon and some Clemson faculty. Ford was a master recruiter and motivator, just like Dabo. Parents loved coach Ford for his genuine personality, just like Dabo. Had Ford coached 3 more games a year, he'd have won way more than he lost.
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CU Guru [1149]
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Add Woody Hayes to the list of greats Ford beat. Shame on
Sep 19, 2019, 11:57 AM
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me for leaving that one out.
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Orange Blooded [2832]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 1:18 PM
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Actually the rebuilding today is harder seeing as more Juniors leave for the NFL than they did in the 80's. The coaches today have to build a team full of talented Juniors, sophomores, and Freshmen. Usually the most talented Seniors declare for the draft and only spend 3 years in college. That's why it surprised everyone that our players returned for their senior year. When coach Howard was coaching the NCAA wouldn't even let freshman participate in games. So basically everyone redshirted and played 3 years.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: Give past coaches their due.
Sep 19, 2019, 1:45 PM
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Comparing the first 94 for both you can make an argument. Dabo has won 25 more and more importantly another National Championship since then. Soon your comparisons will need to be with legendary coaches from all of college football.
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